The next President must remind the military in no uncertain terms....

[kentuck]

...from the bottom to the top, that the military answers to a civilian leadership and no tyrant, dictator, or president has the authority to turn them against other Americans that might have a different political persuasion. It is not the President that pays their salary. It is the people. All of us. So shake off the cobwebs from this pretend dictatorship and come back down to earth and reality.

The President is the Commander in Chief, so there can be one leader in time of emergency. Ohterwise, the President would have not had a role in the Constitution as set forth by our founding fathers and mothers and brother and sisters. The military may need a small history lesson after their stint with George W Bush.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. As much as you may have a point (JOs and Junor NCOs)

the leadership is sick and tired of Bush... and Rummy....

You didn't miss all them stars on paraade at the Convention, did you?
Those folks were talking for their friends still in who have no right to an opinion, due to the UCMJ. I wonder though if they have hinted (once again) where they stand when November rolls around... (behind the Constitution)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. Bingo....lots of discontent at the upper levels translates into lots of...

...discontent at the lower levels.

When some senior officers were quoted in the news after the torture scandal broke saying that Rummy should be fired, that was a first for me. I had never seen that happen before, and I've been reading and watching the news since the late 1950s.

[fishface]

2. The military officer corp is deeply in Bush's pocket.

They even have Faux News to help spread the gospel..

Bush is No. 1 in Navy town
Paul Vitello





August 1, 2004

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - When a young Navy enlistee registers to vote here, it is likely to be with the help of a uniformed superior officer. It may even be the one he or she answers to.

Officers in uniform regularly staff voter-registration tables outside of Navy NEX stores, the Navy version of a PX, where enlistees and their families buy groceries and supplies. Local election officials supply the paperwork, but it's the uniformed officers who hawk registration, hand out the pens - and get a peek at the political party chosen by each registrant with an "X" in a box on the face of each form.

"The problem is, a lot of the chiefs don't make any secret of the fact that Bush is their man," said Wendy Layton, program director at the USO center just outside the Mayport Naval Station here. "A lot of these young people feel pressured to register a certain way and vote a certain way."

The officers may not say so while on registration duty, she added, but enlistees say they usually don't have to.

"I knew they wanted me to register Republican, and when I came out of the NEX, I just sort of avoided the table," said Navy Seaman Charles Gillis, 22, who was invited by officers to register a few weeks ago but declined. He is undecided and still not registered.

This is a sprawling port city where the naval base is only part of the local political ecology; but it is an important part. And a recent history of alleged voting irregularities underlies any real or perceived unfairness in the voting system.

In Duval County, which includes Jacksonville, about 27,000 ballots were discarded because of unclear machine tabulations in the closely contested 2000 presidential election - most of them from predominantly black, Democratic precincts where Al Gore won overwhelmingly.

http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-livit013914500aug01,0,5410782.column?coll=ny-news-columnists

[tabasco]

7. Does that include me?

- I didn't know I was in Bush's pocket. Damn!
- Maybe Navy people and USAF that don't go anywhere dangerous. They get to be "war vets" without getting shot at.
- Infantry officers are getting sick of this world conquest crap.

[kentuck]

9. What percent of your unit think like yourself ??

Would you estimate? Just curious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. When my husband left the Naval service

about six months ago, the crew of his boat was no longer in
Bush's pocket. (And that assumes they ever were truly in their pocket)

Here are some of the things that they lived though.

They needed to be replenished at sea, (food and other stuff) and everything, from toilet paper to flour was replaced for Lima Beans

When they got to Bahrain for emergency repairs, which they could not do, they fed the local troops who were limited to three MREs, here is the game KBR was playing, you are gonna eat yoru hot meal at 12:00, you mean you are on watch? Too bad, you can't make it, here is your MRE... realize MREs are 3 dollars a meal, the hot measl are seven bucks, see the "savings" for Halliburton?

The troops on guard were so hungry that they had more people pulling duty than they knew what to do because they were hungry.

Oh did I mention we shipped soap, toiletries and toilet paper to the theater because you could not find that in theater?

So they will not overtly tell you what they think of Bush, but in November, most of those sailors and officers will vote Democrat.

[kentuck]

14. I do hope you're right....

But I think more of the problem may lie with the troops at the bottom.

[tabasco]

18. Well, there's a problem at the top too. A BIG problem.

- A lot of generals and important colonels go on to be on the board for war profiteering corporations. So they become loyal to the almighty dollar rather than loyal to the service. This leads them to fully support an agenda like the neocons, and claim that the military should support the repugs. There is a lot of corruption in the top ranks.
- Then there are many patriotic generals, like Clark, and many others, who do not sell their souls. I'm glad to see a lot of them speaking out against the neocons. It is a huge help for Kerry.
- I wish all troops could understand that spending more on defense does not mean supporting the troops. Repugs traditionally spend more, but on the big ticket items like Star Wars that fill the coffers of the corps. It doesn't do much for the soldier on the front lines. I try to educate the troops I know that it's not how much they spend, it's where they spend that is important. Repugs waste money, while Democrats spend it wisely where it is needed (useful weapons, quality of life, etc.)
- I don't know what the percentages are, but I'm pretty sure Bush is turning a lot of military against the repugs, or at least questioning blind loyalty to them.

[tabasco]

15. Bush has changed everything.

- I'm a reservist now but I was active-duty about the time of the selection. It seemed like I was the only Dem. I worked with them recently and I would guess 50/50, but the personnel had all turned over.
- The Army certainly isn't a liberal bastion, but Bush has shown the troops that they are nothing but cannon fodder to him and Rummy. When Bush floated the balloon to cut combat pay, that got some attention.
- I would say that among officers, only about half or maybe 60% are hardcore repugs to the bitter end. Not great but still not a solid block of repug voters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I'd better correct you

my hubby just retired from the USN, after 20 in.

(Yep all duckies were in a row or he would have been extended, I am possitive of it)

Amazing at it may sound, he has been shot at... and he still wakes up at night due to them nightmares. Free hint he is not a seal.

So don't generalize, and by the way... the Navy is also fed up with Baby Bush's dreams of world conquest...

[tabasco]

16. Didn't mean to disrespect the Navy.

Infantrymen tend to disrespect everybody who's not a grunt. My deepest apologies. It just pisses me off to see Rummy give a speech down at the air base in Tampa with wildly cheering troops.

Fairly recent statistics from Iraq:

KIA Army: 684
KIA Marines: 197
KIA Navy: 19
KIA USAF: 11

All services pays a high price for an incompetent President and I hope the troops vote for the better leader, John Kerry.

[fishface]

11. Do you represent the entire military officers corp?

If you're going to try and convince me that the majority aren't, I hope you've got some compelling evidence.

[tabasco]

17. What kind of evidence do you have?

All I have is my personal experience. I was in some units that it seemed like it was all repugs. In other units it seemed like 50/50. There ya' go - that's my evidence. Now where's yours?

[napi21]

3. m not sure I understand you.

All military personnel are trained (I tell my son in the Navy he's brain washed) to obey any commands of a superior officer unless they know it is and order that is unlawful. Even in that case, they are told to go to the next level of command to request authorization to disobey that original order.

Please explain your first paragraph. Maybe I'm minunderstanding you.

[kentuck]

6. The problem is that many young military people do not understand....

at the same level you may and they will obey orders to shoot to kill if there are people rioting in the streets, even though they might be American citizens. It is my opinion that there is an unhealthy and dangerous attitude in the military of today and it is propagated and fertilized by the bullshit in the White House. There are a few that might stand up to unlawful orders but not many...certainly not the majority.

[izzie]

4. A lot of people in the country seem to for get what our father's signed.

Many seen to want a church run state by a ruler. Let them go to SA and try it for a while.

[pocket]

5. Kerry will probably have to purge the upper ranks

early retirement never killed anybody

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Some of the upper ranks in that sense you are correct

mostly because Bush never went after Boykin, and he should have been forced out. So people like Boykin will have to be forced out. But there are good officers even at the upper ranks who are doing the best they can.

By the way when Shalishkavilli said in the convention that we are on our way to a hollow army, he was talking the theme I have been hearing for over two years from those in... after hubby retired I lost my ability to hear these things, but I know Shalishkasvilli was talking for those folks.... who hate what Bush has done to the Armed Forces.