those who do not, or refuse to believe in god, will they be punished?

[mopaul]

just asking

[DaveSZ]

1. What if you live a good life?

What if you dedicate your life to good causes and helping others?

[Hekate]

17. The "baptism of desire"

That's what my mother was taught in her Roman Catholic catechism classes. (She's 80, so some terms may have changed.) I think that term may have been applied to so-called "virtuous pagans" -- those who lived exemplary lives but had not been fortunate enough to hear about the "true" religion. The RC church invented that special category largely because of their admiration for the Greek philosophers, whose elegantly logical works so influenced the thinking of the medieval Church that it was unthinkable that they be consigned to Hell. Anyhow, I think virtuous pagans were known to exist here and there around the world at any given time.

However, it's quite likely that this loophole doesn't apply to those who are/were Christian and those who've been informed of the "true" religion. Being a lapsed Catholic is frowned upon.

As for Hell itself, I ask: what kind of a parent (people call God "father")--what kind of a parent, having brought children into this world, would look on them in their callow youth (60 or 90 years old versus His eternity) and decide "Okay kids, you're not perfect so I'm going to torture you forever"? Would you, as a mother or father, commence beating your children?

Right. Most of us would rather keep working on their ethics and behavior until they grew up.

Universalism is a doctrine (a Christian doctrine, even) that says salvation eventually comes to everyone, universally. At some point in history the Universalists merged with the Unitarians, who believe in only one god, not three (except more recently CUUPS, who may believe in more). They don't believe in Hell, either, pretty much for the reasons given above: what kind of a parent/all-wise being/god would torment his children eternally?

Personally, I'm with the UUs on this one.

Hekate

[mopaul]

19. the fear of eternal suffering, vs. the prospect of eternal reward

fear of burning. we've all experienced burning, and other intense pain. and we can easily imagine that sensation going on forever, not a happy thought.

and, one can damn people pre-emptively. if you don't love god like i do, you will go to hell brother, and i'll laugh at your agonies from on high sitting with the lord sipping mint julips.

lots of suffering going on in christianity. the torture of jesus, the martyrdom of countless suffering saints, the sufferings of lott,
the sufferings of countless souls sacrificed for certains gods. the suffering of the prisoners of war at abu ghraib.

lots of pain and agony and fear and retribution and smiting and cleansing goin on

[Solly Mack]

2. Yes, we'll all go to hell together. PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[izzie]

3. Punished by who? God?

May be that sounds fresh but who would do it? The lady next door? God is not mean as I understand. He would not care only if the lady next door did something to you.

[DemBones DemBones]

4. Most religions say they will. Some say the

punishment will involve fire and brimstone, even nasty tortures at Satan's hand, others say nonbelievers and bad people will just be kept separate from God's presence, out of the light.

Some say you get a last chance to believe at the time of your death, that God wants everyone to believe and be saved.

We'll find out someday.

[mhr]

14. Thanks TO King George, My Life Today Is A Living Hell

Could Satan Be Much Worse?

------
Never Forget The Face Of American Fascism'THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAPPENS AT THE SKULL & BONES INITIATION...I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE HAVING A GOOD TIME. THESE PEOPLE -- YOU EVER HEARD OF EMOTIONAL RELEASE? YOU EVER HEARD OF NEEDING TO BLOW SOME STEAM OFF?'

[LittleApple81]

5. Some say only if you hear the "Savior's word" and don't listen you go to

hell. I told a kid who tried to recruit me that if ALL of them kept quiet everybody would have a better chance to go to heaven. Therefore, if I couldn't it would be his fault for talking to me.

[trumad]

6. I hope so

I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints....

Billy Joel

[jdonaldball]

7. Well, that's what Reverend Moon says

[mopaul]

20. bush says jews don't go to hebbin', billy graham told him so

bar tried to reason with him, but he went against his momma and stated publicly that jews don't go to heaven because they have not excepted christ as the already been here messiah.

[Ress12]

8. No!

If God is omnipotent, he already knows who will believe and who will not, it's all preordained. Otherwise, why would he put people on earth and send them to hell if he knows beforehand they will kill or rape or steal or not believe? He couldn't be that cruel.

[leesa]

24. Yet you believe this 'not cruel' God will punish you for all eternity if

you don't believe in him. Sounds pretty cranky to me! Also pretty arrogant.

I will never understand why people who believe in a creator God feel they have to do and say certain things and believe this or that to please the master. In parenting, this would be described as an abusive parent. Isn't your God your parent. Why would you expect anything but unconditional love?

[Mike Niendorff]

51. ^^^ We have a winner ^^^

If god is all-knowing (and how can a god be less-than-all-knowing?) then that god MUST also know who is ultimately going to "choose salvation" and who is not. Otherwise, that god's knowledge is imperfect and incomplete (and, at minimum, this directly contradicts the Christian Bible's doctrines of an "omniscient" deity). On the other hand, if that god DOES know who will ultimately be "saved" (and who will not), then it begs the obvious question: why did that god create people who HE KNEW were ultimately going to end up "unsaved" and, hence, destined for hell?

Furthermore, if that god is all-powerful (as the Christian Bible declares), then it must also be true that all aspects of every life that this god creates are fully susceptible to his control. So, if that god knows who will be "unsaved", and has complete power over all aspects of each person's life (and, being omnipotent, could change ANY outcome, if the god wanted to), THEN : how can any created being be held responsible -- and tortured for eternity -- for the outcome of his (created) life? The outcome was pre-known. The power to change it lay with the creator, who opted not to do so. Whatever blame there is therefore rests on the creator.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying: the Biblical version of 'god' is patently absurd. It requires the coexistence of two mutually exclusive conditions: (1) an omniscient and omnipotent Creator and (2) personal responsibility on the part of the Created for the results of that Creator's actions. Such a situation is demonstrably self-contradictory.

This allows for only two possible results: (1) either god is not omniscient and omnipotent (and, thus, the Christian version of god is a lie) OR (2) god knowingly and intentionally creates people predestined for hell (and, thus, the Christian version of god is a lie).

And if anyone asks me "why aren't you a Christian?", they now have my answer.

(note: if anyone asks me "why aren't you an athiest?", well, it's because the proof above only applies to one particular version of 'god', not to the concept itself -- although, in all fairness, I have yet to see a shred of evidence to support the concept of a 'god' either).


MDN

[mikehiggins]

9. The way I figure it, the question is moot

If Christianity is correct, and Christ was God and "died" on the Cross in recompense for all our sins, just exactly what can any individual do that would offset that?

Nobody goes to Hell except by his/her deliberate and determined effort and even then most likely not. Hell itself has probably been subdivided and is now the spiritual equivalent of Levittown.

Just my opinion.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. No

Romans 2:12-16.

[KG]

11. those who do not, or refuse to believe in mo paul, will they be punished

THAT is the question of our age....

[mopaul]

21. ye verily, they shall be cast into sulpher and fire for all of time

that's an easy one

[Renew Deal]

12. They should be publicly flogged

Or stoned :smoke:

[mopaul]

22. not only should i be stoned...

i am already. everybody must get stoned at some point or another, biblically speaking.

[magnolia]

13. This kind of question gives me a headache.

When are we going to stop seeing god in fairy tale terms????

The difference between a dead body and a living body is life force. That life force is the only god there is. Thousands of years ago it would have been impossible for anyone to understand abstract ideas about energy...so stories were created. To believe the stories as appose to the real thing, in this day and age, is ridiculous. This life force doesn't punish or reward. Whatever our life situation, it is determined by who we are and what kind of energy we send out. It matters not an inkling what you believe...or even what you do. All that matters is what is in your heart and how you express that to the world. Anger, sadness, stress, etc...these are negative. You send them out and they come back to you either in situations or into your physical body. Love, joy, peace...these are positive and will bring back to you in kind. It's not quite that simple, of course...but it's imperative that you look inward instead of outward if you want to know the truth.

Joseph Campbell said that in order to find god, you first have to lose god. So...if you want to know god, let go of any preconceived ideas you have, whatever you learned in church, read in the bible, etc. Become an athiest. Turn inward and focus on your own life force and take responsibility for what kind of energy you put out into the world.

On edit...just came across this quote:

"You have to leave the city of your comfort and go into the wilderness of your intuition. What you'll discover will be wonderful. What you'll discover is yourself."

--Alan Alda

[devinsgram]

44. Thank you

You have just put my feelings into words that I could never find.

[mmonk]

15. I guess it depends on who's god.

The god of fundamentalist Islamists? Yes The god of fundamentalist Christianity? Yes Buddha? I don't think so. Liberal Christian theology? I don't know or am not sure, some yes, some no. God is in the eye (mind) of the believer.

[Paradise]

16. Perhaps they have something, there,

because it seems we already are! :think:

[BiggJawn]

18. I think Mo-Paul meant God's "Agents", not Ol' Whiskas Hisself

Like the Inquisition. "Recant or DIE, Infidel!"

Don't forget the creed of the Dominionist:
"Every Head shall Bow, Every Knee shall Bend."

The next line is something to the effect of "Or we'll bust those heads and knees"

[leesa]

23. By whom?

[mopaul]

25. the atheist's funeral

all dressed up and no place to go

[Klapaucius]

53. Speaking of funerals....

Anyone here read 'Towing Jehovah'?

Kind of an interesting read. Premise is that God has died, and left his body in the middle of the ocean. The church hires a disgraced tanker captain to tow the body and inter it in the ice. He was specifically requested by the angels.

I'm agnostic, so it doesn't quite pack the offense to me that it might have for folks who have faith. But what I find interesting is the idea postulated as to why it might have occurred. The reasoning being is that God has decided that we are out of our fledgling stage, and able to take our own path, and gives us that option by giving us evidence that he's passed on.

It's definitely one of the oddest books I've read in a while.

K.

[xocolatl]

26. What is punishment?

I am nominally Christian (Episcopalian ex-Catholic) who, in reality, tends towards Buddhist philosophy. I believe in an intelligent, conscious, self-aware Cosmos, that for lack of a better word could be described as "God".

As for punishment vs. salvation, here's my take:

Can you imagine a place where there is truly no suffering?

I am very fond of dogs, and by extension I have a soft spot for all animals. It pains me that my dog is carnivorous and has to eat other animals. I can't imagine a paradise without my dog, and I can't imagine my dog being happy without plenty of animals to eat on a regular basis.

And so, existence itself presents a basic problem: if I were to inhabit a place that makes me happy, in my current state as a human being, then that place would surely be an unhappy place for other beings.

In a word, it sucks to be.

[mopaul]

28. someday, you might have to eat a dog

i know if i were hungry enough, ol' rover would start to look like a big weenie on a bun with mustard.

[Hamlette]

38. animals go to heaven?

I have a soft spot too and have had, over my life, a couple of dozen. Do I have to have ALL of them in heaven? Even that stupid Gaylord? Or that mean spirited Oprah? Ugh!

I have another question: Which family will I be in? My ideal "time" would be when my son was young. But my mom's ideal time would be when I was young, before I had my son. So if she gets her way, I'll forever be 5 years old and not get to see my son. Or will we all be adults (will your mom be pissed if you don't invite your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great aunt to the Christmas party?)

Heaven is so stupid. What are we gonna do for eternity? Learn new stuff? There's not gonna be any politics to talk about. Face it, it will be boring.

Finally, if there is a hell, I know a ton of people who will be there and as much as I hate them I don't think I could be happy knowing they are suffering so. If I stopped caring about all the suffering I'd become a Republican. So, heaven is me as a Republican with this friggin' humongous family and dozens of cats and dogs with nothing to do.

I'd rather NOT believe.

[randr]

27. They will be condemned to share a planet with superstitious

people who are part of a death cult where peace is only found in death.

[mopaul]

29. the planet of the damned

one religion oppresses and wipes out another, one religion attacks it's neighbors, another is hastening the end of the world, we're all damned here.

[melv]

31. if we are supposedly made in the image of God

then wouldn't that God be understanding when it comes to the nature of human beings? how could any God send any being to a hell if humans were made in God's image? It would be sort of like saying "do as I say, not as I do.."

[jonnyblitz]

30. they can come and get me any time.

i will send them my address where they can find me. I would rather suffer then believe that crap....

[fishnfla]

32. What if you believe in God and He does not exist?

Would you feel ripped off? could you ever know?


This is an old philisophical conundrum

1. God exists
2. God does not exist

A. You believe in God
B. You do not believe in God

1+A=?
1+B=?

2+A=?
2+B=?

Edit: I suck at math

[Dob Bole]

37. What if you don't believe in God and he does exist?

Probably in your formula, but I suck at math too and felt like phrasing it this way...

[fishnfla]

40. 1+B=?

[seemslikeadream]

33. Balances must be defended

They were guardians of the breath
Trusted with those precious chances
Keeping gaia from the fear of death
Balances must be defended

To take only what they must
(borrowed from the future)
Live in lovers of a global home
(our children will remember)

Guardians slept while comfort came
The vapours poison, the acid rain fell
The spirit cut from earthly bounds
The creature stirred the pain

How much abuse can she take
(awake from your dreamtime)
The lines are drawn our justice awaits
(will the guardians surrender)

The forest bare, a desert born
The life pushed out
They sold her cheaply
All for a shilling for next weeks treat
A marvel that had taken ten thousand years

To take only what they must
(borrowed from the future)
Live in lovers of a global home
(our children will remember)

They are guardians of the breath
Trusted with those precious chances
They are guardians of the breath
Balances must be defended

howard jones

[jukes]

34. m/p

only by the theocracy that wins this jihad/crusade.

fuck a buncha fundy nutjobs, of whichever stripe. i'm a fucking cockroach (no ref to "c***smokers!); they'll have to dig me out.

[shimmergal]

35. God, whoever he/she/they are, may have nothing to do with

what happens to a person after death.

At minimum, God comes across as having lousy self-esteem by punishing non-believers so drastically. Can't God believe in himself unless everybody else does too? If not, some therapy for the divine might be a good idea.

Seriously, just because religions have put these two ideas together (God and the afterlife) that still doesn't prove a connection. Maybe we automatically go on to rebirth, or another stage of life, without a deity's intervention.

[Generic Other]

36. It's a western supremacist religion

It damns eternally those who never even heard of it such as most of the non-western world.

Once a Baptist (ex-inlaw) told me that we'd all be white in heaven and look just like Christ when he died. I said I didn't think I wanted to look like a balding middle-aged Jewish man. I envisioned a heaven full of Woody Allen lookalikes and asked her why on earth she'd harbor such a kinky fantasy?

Especially since she had a grandchild who was Asian. She assured me that everyone wanted to be white so that there'd be no distinction between them up there in LA LA land. Kind of like communists, right? A system they had all proven they could live harmoniously under in life.

[sangha]

39. The punishment for sin is contained within the act

According to most of the religious philosophy that I'm familiar with, the punishment for committing a sin is contained within the act of committing the sin. By committing an immoral act, one distances oneself from God, which is, in and of itself, punishment. If you're religious, the worst punishment is to be estranged from God. According to Christian philosophy, being estranged from God is the definition of hell, and so if committing a sin distances you from God (which is the same thing as being in Hell) then committing the sin is the punishment for committing a sin.

[roguevalley]

41. no. god isn't that stupid or mean. frankly, live a good life. what else do

you need to do?

[wuushew]

42. Immortality is a pointless concept

In order be punished or rewarded for eternity, the human mind would have to posses to capability to remember infinite memories. Also given infinite time an individual can experience all possible actions in a given universe.

So look at this way, if your damned then eventually you forget your prior life and effectively become a new individual. The same with heaven. If the so called afterlife somehow does not involve linear time then this too lies outside the comprehension of human cognizance.
What you will become is nothing like what you were so philosophically how is this different from death?

Even if you somehow had the ability to live forever outside the belief systems of religion, the end of the universe would either be a depressing heat death from expansion or equally dangerous big crunch were the universe collapses upon itself from gravity.

The human condition is best accomplished by living one's known existence to the best of his or her ability and knowing that although one's life is finite the endeavors of the human race are not. It seems to me this a better path to follow than the guilt ridden systems of western religion which espouse ludicrous concepts of absolute truth and dogmatic obedience.

[Old_Growth]

43. Pointless indeed.....

Immortality is pointless and meaningless. Only life in the finite realm has any meaning.
"The gods envy us" as mythology so put it.

[Ms. Clio]

45. No

Not unless the fundies manage to implement their theocratic ambitions--then you'll see punishment.

[Arugula Latte]

46. I always wish that there were a one-hour afterlife

It would be just long enough for religious people to be informed that they'd been sold a big, stinky load and that all that superstition was for nought. Then it all ends. Bye bye.

[enki23]

47. only if the true believers can get their hands on them

.

[banana republican]

48. Falwell's heresy is that we choose god.

this is not the case; god chooses us.

whether or not you go to heaven or hell has nothing to do what so ever with what you believe or what you do.

The only thing that matters is whether or not god cares about you; and; based on the disclosures in the bible he cares very much about everyone.

[Mordecai]

49. Yes.

That's what I believe, anyways.

[PurityOfEssence]

50. We are constantly, in this society

But that's fine.

As for an afterlife, it just sounds and feels like a silly, childish and fantasmagorical bit of wishful thinking to stave off the fear of mortality. Hey, maybe I'm wrong; that's why I'm an agnostic.

As for torture and agony by the Witchy Man, he'd have to be a pretty piss-poor narcissist for punishing someone who doesn't suck up to him, especially when he's playing such a petty game of not revealing himself. It's all just silly, and let's just leave it at that. If, by some odd twist, there actually is such a thing, he/she will probably judge according to merits, rather than getting locked into some nit-picky factional crap.

The whole thing just smacks of arrested development: forever dependants and never fully becoming adults, we wait hopefully for the approval of a distant and glorified parent. Barf-o-matic.

I actually can't quite believe that so many people actually believe this stuff; it's not even good fiction.

[Nobody]

52. According to my religious education...

Having graduated from a Catholic HS and having been required to take a class called "Morality" in 9th grade, one of the things that stood out was what we were taught in this class.

Some of it was very questionable. I've mentioned the other thing on this board already.

Here is the other one:

Not going to church each Sunday is a mortal sin.

So I raised my hand and asked the obvious question. What if you have two people: One is a kind, generous, person who spend a great deal of time assisting the poor, volunteering with senior citizens, donating to food shelves, helping out stranded motorists, etc but skipped church on occasion, some of the occasions to do these things. The second is a serial killer who never misses a single Mass. Who would get to heaven first?

The answer according to the instructor was that the first person had committed a mortal sin and if he/she died unforgiven would go to hell. But the second, if he/she confessed his/her sins would enter the kingdom of God.

It certainly gave the class a great deal to think about.

To be fair to other Catholics, I mentioned the class to my mother, who was and is very devout, and she didn't agree with the instructor. My family always said that God doesn't take attendance.

[midwayer]

54. Belief Comparisons of the World's Major Religions

For reference I found this interesting, it lists the difference in beliefs between the religions, including this issue of salvation

Also gives a definition "introduction" to each of the religions

http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc1037.htm