9/11 was an inside job

[JackRiddler]

They're talking about postponing the election. The talk is a test balloon - how has the public reacted? Barely, but at least everyone noticed. Setting up a federal official who is supposed to determine whether an emergency is big enough to cancel the election is already an actionable offense against the Constitution! As is the very idea of "Code Red."

I think the plan is not so much that they will actually postpone the election this year (if nothing else, Kerry is very safe for the Bushes, he won't be pushing any prosecutions once they're out of power any more than Clinton did.) The idea is to establish the government's right to do such a thing in the first place, and of course to influence this year's election results.

At least everyone I talk to now (a broad mix from "center" to left, plus a couple of Republicans) takes that seriously. They see through it, they say it's part of the maneuvers by the Bush crew to steal the election again. They can see now that the Iraq invasion (which has visited something like ten 9/11s on that country so far) was a crime justified by a pack of lies. And if they can see that, they can also see what really happened on Sept. 11, 2001.

Starting right now, Americans can figure out just what chumps they’ve been taken for. The oddities add up and you don't go home to TiVo. Or else you do: you can choose to graduate from the School of Coincidence. Let me introduce you to the syllabus.

Let's talk about the theory of Luck, as it was coined by Mindy Kleinberg, who lost her husband at Cantor Fitzgerald, in her testimony before the Cover-Up Commission.

Just by coincidence the cops and spooks of Germany, the United States and Israel followed around the alleged hijackers - not just the two you have heard of, if you’ve been following it, not just the San Diego boys, no. Nearly all of the later hijackers were under surveillance and just by coincidence, they all got under the radar. Theory of luck.

Just by coincidence, Mohamed Atta and his buddy Marwan Shehhi learned to fly at a CIA front that imported drugs into Florida. Just by coincidence, you haven’t read that in the New York Times, you’re getting it from me, the coincidence theorist (and from madcowprod.com)

Just by coincidence, the U.S. government got multiple warnings from a dozen countries in the weeks before 9/11 that when put together add up to a plot to hijack planes and crash them into New York on Sept. 11. Just by coincidence, no one put these together in time. No one could have imagined it! How many times have you heard that?

Just by coincidence, warnings were given to a mayor, to some generals, to other people not to fly on Sept. 11. Just by coincidence, some cancelled their travel plans, some called the FBI and warned about what would happen, and some placed bets against the airlines on the stock markets.

Just by coincidence, some of them spoke out after the attacks. Just by coincidence, you didn’t read that in the New York Times, you’re hearing it from me, the coincidence theorist.

Just by coincidence, the U.S. military planned and staged wargames on Sept. 11. Just by coincidence, the scenarios for these exercises involved multiple hijackings of commercial airliners in domestic airspace and errant planes crashing into important buildings. Just by coincidence, these appear to have tied up the air force and caused a complete failure of longstanding standard air defense procedures, so that the 9/11 flights were not intercepted. You haven’t read that in the papers, but just by coincidence I read it in Aviation Week and on the military sites.

Just by coincidence, the U.S. chain of command did not react during the actual attacks. Just by coincidence, Bush, Rumsfeld and Myers by their own admission did nothing that morning, looking to all the world as though they wanted it to go ahead and happen. You saw that on TV but you didn’t think about it, did you?

Just by coincidence, the Project for a New American Century and other thinktank bigbrains planned an aggressive policy for world domination starting with a war in Iraq, and just by coincidence they admitted they’d never sell it to the American people without a new Pearl Harbor. Just by coincidence, PNAC took power in a stolen election and today call themselves the Bush administration. Just by coincidence, they planned a domestic police state and a plundering of the Treasury. Just by coincidence, they got their new Pearl Harbor. Just by coincidence they went ahead and implemented their plans that would have otherwise been impossible.

How much coincidence are you willing to take? All of them, of course. Because only coincidence is possible. Because Sept. 11 changed the world. Because we all have to obey what they say 9/11 told us. The lessons.

Hey I remember when I was in school they still taught the Declaration of Independence, I wonder if they still do. It started after the preamble with the words, we hold these truths to be self-evident. Now that’s done. Now we hold these wars to be self-evident. A war in Afghanistan, because that’s where them that done it come from, and because the oil and the poppies are sweet. A war in Iraq, because, as we all know, that’s where them that done it don’t come from, but you know they would have done it if they could have should have, we gotta stop them before they can because they might and then we’ll be cooked, and you know the oil is so sweet. A war on countries to be named later, because you know they will be named and they all hate our freedoms. Who’s next. A war on your freedoms, because you know you were getting pretty uppity and lazy and fat. A war for your body and mind, because that’s what you are still good for. A war forever, because war is business and business is war, or it’s a bust. Just the war they said they wanted. Just by coincidence.

Now we're going to go to Code Red shortly, never fear, but in the prelude - Let’s have some music, shall we?

[Placebo]

1. A 757 Never Hit the Pentagon & the WTC Was a Staged Implosion:

http://www.physics911.org/net/index.php

[Character Assassin]

2. Alligators are in the NYC sewer system. The Freemasons put them there

And an international cabal of Jewish bankers funded the whole thing.

Glad we had a chance to have this little chat.

[taxidriver]

4. lol. i think he's serious, character assassin.

[iconoclastic cat]

5. I am the keeper of the cheese! And you are the lemon merchant, get it?

And he knows it! Soon, he'll let loose the marmosets on us!

[Character Assassin]

7. I am the key-master of Gozar!

[Must_B_Free]

10. That's out of character for you

Stick to assassinating his character, stay away from the issues, pal.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackRiddler]

11. Never answer the argument, never deal with the facts...

Just repeat the magic formulae of denial and make sure to throw the Jews in there, as though anything I said implied this.

While we're at it, however, I do wish to distance myself from the bogus "science" of 911physics.org.

Now this is a really good site:

911Truth.org

Sad, really. Posts about 9/11 always inspire two types of knee-jerk reaction. Some rush to tell us how the video shows buildings flying up to hit the aircraft (or whatever). Others rush to throw out the magic words of "conspiracy theory." (Remember, if you're talking about Russia, it's business as usual. Conspiracies happen everywhere except in the United States, where we only have "conspiracy theory.")

What gets lost is that the evidence actually presented in the mainstream media, as a whole, always pointed strongly to inside job/intentionally allowing the attacks to happen, and that this would be history as usual: Remember the Maine, Reichstag Fire, Gleiwitz, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods, 1991's incubator babies, 2003's weapons of mass destruction, Moscow 9/99, Gladio and P-2 in Italy... all resulting in thousands or millions of dead, including of the perpetrating state's home government. (Yeah, even the first Gulf War with its hundred-thousand-plus American casualties - or what do you call Gulf War Syndrome?)

[Placebo]

12. The Hole In the Pentagon Was Too Small...

...to have been struck by a 757. It's faaaaaaaaaar too small. Not to mention that there was almost no debris scattered on the lawn. also, for a 757 to be flying that low it would have struck a lot on its way to the pentagon, at LEAST the lawn. The list goes on!

[lanparty]

28. The Pentagon is a hardened structure ...

I believe the story because I knew someone who saw the plane strike with their own eyes.

The Pentagon itself is a much "sturdier" building. Skyscrapers are built "light". The Pentagon is a squat, five story building enclosed in thick limestone. Limestone withstands a LOT more punishment than glass.

[Mike Niendorff]

31. bullshit.

There are an *immense* number of valid questions surrounding the events of 9/11. Please stop detracting from them by promoting this ludicrous "no Pentagon plane" nonsense on DU. Thank you.


MDN

[ms.smiler]

72. Perhaps you understand and can explain to me...

How a 757 which is about 50' in height, can strike just the first floor of the Pentagon which is a structure about 80' in height.

[Mike Niendorff]

80. and perhaps you can explain to me

why DU is being constantly inundated with low-post trolls who aggressively promote only the most outlandish "theories" regarding the 9/11 attacks, while consistently ignoring -- and drawing attention away from -- the legitimate questions that Bush and his cronies have been dodging like the plague. Most notable among these: John Ashcroft's documented behavior in the months leading up to the attacks.


MDN

[TomNickell]

82. LOW POST TROLLS.......

EXACTLY.

What is this 9/11 Bullshit, except a diversion from serious questions?

Somebody posts the same bullshit 'evidence'--here a bunch of coincidences we are all familiar with--, or the most incredibly improbable 'theory'--the Pentagon was hit by missiles and the WTC was hit by a controlled demolition--, and we are off to the races!

The same bullshit posters reinforcing each other's bullshit belief system.

And when the thing is about to die a merciful death, someone will put in a nice KICK.

And those of us who don't speak TRUTH about this Bullshit, are deluded fools.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

83. Kick

for your pointless rant

[Mike Niendorff]

85. I'm not endorsing you either, Tom.

I am *strongly* convinced that there are *serious* questions about the events of 9/11/01 that *need* to be investigated. Ashcroft's "no commercial flights" policy. His attempts to retask the FBI away from counterterrorism, and his early-spring "confrontation" with Louis Freeh over precisely this issue (notably, just prior to Freeh's resignation, 5/1/01). The investigatory "roadblock" at FBI headquarters (to quote Colleen Rowley). The refusal of Bush's OIPR (led by one "James A. Baker") to even *ask* for a FISA warrant to look at Moussaoui's computer, despite statements by the French that they told the FBI *clearly* that Moussaoui was a MEMBER of Al Qaeda and had been associated previously with another plot to hijack an airliner and use it "as a missile". The Crawford Briefing. The threats against Bush at the Genoa G8 Summit. On and on and on.

What these trolls are doing, by promoting only the outlandish while ignoring the sensible and the documented, is to divert our focus away from the real issues and onto nonsense. And there *are* real issues out there. Big ones.


MDN

[xocolatl]

92. Confused

Mike, I'm confused about which questions you have a problem with. I agree that it's pointless to speculate about whether or not the 747 exists (especially since there were eyewitnesses, even some here on DU). But a possible detonation could be interesting.

Are you at odds with the theory that associates of the Bush admin planned 911 or allowed it to happen? Because I think there is a mountain of evidence that suggests that the theory is reasonable, and having a working hypothesis to guide the questioning is useful.

On the other hand, I agree that it is not useful to develop outlandish theories for the exact method of implementation.

[Mike Niendorff]

108. fair question.

My attitude has always been that when examining the events surrounding the September 11 attacks, it's absolutely critical that we stick to documented, provable, verifiable facts, and that we take care to draw reasonable inferences from those facts. Reliable sources, credible analysis, level-headed care and caution.

It's a matter of both credibility and integrity.

That being said, I do agree that there is a *mountain* of credible evidence showing that the Bushies had substantial forewarning of an impending attack, and they clearly chose to sit on their hands rather than do anything to prevent it. Whether that is due to negligence or to some degree of complicity, I consider that something that is open to debate (although, personally, I'm convinced that Ashcroft's behavior is simply too damning to be explained as mere negligence).

But my point is, reasonable questions *are* in play, and those of us who care about getting answers to those questions have a responsibility to steer clear of wild speculation and paranoid fantasy, and to stick clearly and carefully to the documented facts.


MDN

[xocolatl]

109. Well then we are in agreement

I, personally, am agnostic between MIHOP and LIHOP theories; even LIHOP is damning enough.

[ms.smiler]

88. I did not promote a "theory," I simply asked a question.

Are you unable to answer my question? If you believe a 757 struck the Pentagon, please explain the damage. I quite agree with you about the importance of the behavior of top level government personnel. That is a separate, supportive aspect of these events.

[Th1onein]

104. Hey now! These "low post trolls" are newbies and they don't

deserve to be treated badly simply because the number of their posts is low. The guy has an opinion, and he's entitled to it, even if you don't agree. You don't have to put him down, personally.

I, personally, don't subscribe the missile hitting the Pentagon theory, but these "crazy" conspiracy theories have a tendency to make the less crazy ones (such as LIHOP) more palatable.

[homelandpunk]

117. Yes, physics supports the Incredible Shrinking Plane.

The passengers in the plane had to shrink as well. Unless they were squished by the contracting metal, having unfortunately remained the same size while the jet shrunk around them. 9/11 really was an amazing day for science and anomalies.

[GoneOffShore]

17. Buchanan site shut down

and the further link leads to a 'media consultant' site. All of whom are serious, hardcore, repukes.
:wtf:

I'm getting my tinfoil hat.
:thumbsdown: :shrug: :tinfoilhat:

[JackRiddler]

20. oops!

I'll change my avatar tomorrow. Thanks.

[GoneOffShore]

27. Here's a link to John Buchanan

http://www.vote-smart.org/bio.php?can_id=MZZ11395

Doesn't sound like a particularly good candidate to me. but hey, I'm in favor of increasing spending on education, and the enviroment.

[King_Crimson]

59. Hey JackRiddler...

Check this out http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm All facts, plenty of research, and a whole bunch of truth. BUT...I've been told... the fella that has this site is...you guessed it...ANTI-SEMITE! IMAGINE THAT!

[geek tragedy]

63. What's surprising,

that a Jew-baiter would indulge in this superstition or that he would get called on it?

[TomNickell]

46. Space alligators from Mars......

Black Helicopters from Buffalo.

Total Bullshit from Conspiracy Hobbyists.

[xocolatl]

48. This is probably a waste of time...

... since you're absolutely certain there is no conspiracy.

But: there's a big difference between alligators from Mars and a staged attack. There is historical precedent for such a staged attack (e.g. the Reichstag, which is the most obvious example). There's motive and lots of suggestive evidence, including the articles posted here. Lots of odd connections between Al Qaeda and the Bushes (although not direct), quite a number of "coincidences". So, it is at least in the realm of possibility that people connected to the Bush administration were behind 911.

[TomNickell]

84. Realm of Possibility....

It is -possible- we are all butterflies, dreaming we are men.
It is -possible- there are aligators from Mars.
But not very likely.

The post was in response to the assertion that WTC was imploded and the Pentagon was not hit by a 767. Both assertions begin as wildly implausible. There are comically obvious logical problems. The supposed evidence has been definitively refuted here many times over. Yet, the same bullshit gets posted over and over and over and over and over and over......

As to a staged attack: A coordinated effort by agencies of 'The Government' to plan and execute 9/11 is about as probable as Alligators from Mars. It is only conceivable if you already are convinced that an all-powerful secret society runs all things.

Is it "in the realm of possibility that people connected to the Bush administration were behind 911"? Certainly. "People connected with the Bush Administration" covers a lot of ground. Small groups might "conceivably" do anything. But, I am unable to see how anyone inside the White House could do very much toward organizing 9/11. Depraved maniacs willing to die flying airplanes into skyscrapers just don't walk around the halls of the CIA.

Insiders could obstruct anti-terror efforts, in a general way. We already know that ideological blinders and Saudi connections crippled investigations. Some Neocons might have acted deliberately--but that would not leave evidence unless a signed confession emerges.

The 'evidence' cited in the original post is Bullshit. Connections between Bush and the Saudis, etc. Embarrassing and damaging to Bush if widely known. But entirely consistent with the standard accepted left-leaning criticism of Mr. Bush and his administration. No proof of anything more. This has been exlained before, to the point of exasperation.

Yet the same Bullshit keeps getting posted...

OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND

[Sterling]

89. Thank god the tide is turning

against people like you.

[xocolatl]

94. The prior probabilities are actually quite different

between alligators from Mars and some kind of staged attack. I'm quite capable, Tom, of judging prior and posterior probabilities for myself.

You obviously don't agree with this line of thinking, and that is your right. But if you don't agree, why don't you just IGNORE this thread?

[stickdog]

100. How's the anti-conspiracy hobby going?

Since that's all you ever do here ...

[Bridget Burke]

49. Mentioning the least likely theories about 9/11 won't work.

There are very real questions that won't go away.

[TomNickell]

87. But, continually posting them in new threads will....

keep anyone from thinking about the legitimate questions. Won't it?

So, who are the people who continually post total nonsense, and what is their purpose?

[Sterling]

90. Not really.

I can sort out info as well as you can. I don't need your supervision, I don't think any one else here does either.

[stickdog]

101. What is YOUR purpose? Do you EVER post anything but disdain for

anyone who questions the "official story"?

[taxidriver]

3. is your buchanan avatar...a joke?

[JackRiddler]

8. now learn to actually read what it says

And when you finally get who Buchanan is, apologize.

[taxidriver]

9. well it confused me because i thought PB was considered one of the more

straightforward, non asskissing repubs who hate neocons and the iraq war and zionism.

so i wasnt sure.

but i apologize. it would have been easier if it was one of those "Bush/orwell" things.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. Mindy Kleinberg's theory of luck.

Everyone ought to read her testimony. And everyone can, here: http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

What she says about the terrorists' "luck" has stuck with me, and I think of it often when I hear Bush or his enablers speak about how the terrists need to be lucky "only once." Absolute bullshit. They were "lucky" innumerable times, and for many years.

Mindy Kleinberg:

With regard to the 9/11 attacks, it has been said that the intelligence agencies have to be right 100% of the time and the terrorists only have to get lucky once. This explanation for the devastating attacks of September 11th, simple on its face, is wrong in its value. Because the 9/11 terrorists were not just lucky once: they were lucky over and over again. Allow me to illustrate.

The terrorist's lucky streak began the week before September 11th with the Securities and Exchange Commission, or SEC. The SEC, in concert with the United States intelligence agencies, has sophisticated software programs that are used in "real-time" to watch both domestic and overseas markets to seek out trends that may indicate a present or future crime. In the week prior to September 11th both the SEC and U.S. intelligence agencies ignored one major stock market indicator, one that could have yielded valuable information with regard to the September 11th attacks.

...

Prior to 9/11, our US intelligence agencies should have stopped the 19 terrorists from entering this country for intelligence reasons, alone. However, their failure to do so in 19 instances does not negate the luck involved for the terrorists when it comes to their visa applications and our Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS.

With regard to the INS, the terrorists got lucky 15 individual times, because 15 of the 19 hijackers' visas should have been unquestionably denied.

And so on, and so on. Just lucky, I guess.

Thanks for a great post, Jack.

[ms.smiler]

15. Was there one thing, just one blasted thing, that my government

did to prevent or stop these events? Please, those who accept the Official Conspiracy Theory, just name me one thing.

[Stephanie]

16. Welcome to DU!

What your government did, was save themselves. You'll notice they all managed to split DC as soon as they learned how serious the threats were.

[Octafish]

21. Nobody INFORMED MEYERS that the PENTAGON had been hit?

Gee. There's something really rotten there. Or else it's a wonder: There were no jets scrambled because the boss was in a meeting and he couldn't be disturbed for the war. Criminals. Criminal.

From your post:

Leadership

Joint Chief Of Staff

The acting Joint Chief of staff on Sept 11th was on the morning of September 11th, he was having a routine meeting . Acting Joint Chief of staff Myers stated that he saw a TV. report about a plane hitting the WTC but thought it was a small plane or something like that. So, he went ahead with his meeting. "Meanwhile the second World Trade Center was hit by another jet. Nobody informed us of that," Myers said. By the time he came out of the meeting the Pentagon had been hit.

Whose responsibility was it to relay this emergency to the Joint Chief of Staff? Have they been held accountable for their error? Surely this represents a breakdown of protocol.

SOURCE:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

[eridani]

13. Stick with what we can prove, dammit!

What we have is a puzzle with half the pieces missing, which is suggestive but not conclusive. It's interesting to take our magic markers and fill in the blanks, but none of that will stand up in court. We can PROVE criminal negligence and accessory after the fact.

http://www.tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=68

After 9-11 Khalil bin Laden was allowed to leave the country via a documented 140-person multi-flight Saudi airlift since the White House declined to hold him as a material witness despite his suspicious connections to the Tri-Border frontier region of Brazil--known for evidence of terrorism--but also his inquiries about bringing in Arabs from Saudi Arabia and Brazil to attend a Florida flight school. Sharrit’s informant daughter Christine later revealed that a Muslim named Lyazid Abad had previously lived with alleged hijacker Mohamed Atta--a fact not lost on the Department of Defense Criminal Investigation Division (DOD-CID) who questioned Christine Sharrit--Abad’s wife--immediately after 9-11, indicating U.S. officials knew about Abad’s and Atta’s movements prior to the attacks.

And also--

BUSH FLIES SAUDI RACEHORSE OWNER WITH PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF THE 9-11 ATTACK OUT OF THE COUNTRY

Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, owner of War Emblem (who won the first two of three Triple Crown races in 2002) was at the top of the list of a group of well-connected Saudis who left the country from Lexington, KY in a luxurious customized 727 shortly after 9-11. According to one of bin Laden’s top operatives, Aziz knew well beforehand that a major attack was to take place in the US on 9-11. And the Bush administration let the bastard fly the coop. The very fact that a couple of hundred Saudis were flying around within the US to central pickup points like Lexington, while US citizens were prohibited from flying from Minneapolis to Chicago is totally outrageous.

On March 30, 2002, Al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan and questioned by two teams of intelligence agents. One of the teams consisted of Arab Americans posing as Saudi agents, who hoped to scare Zubaydah into thinking he would be turned over to the Saudis for the usual torture and beheading. Far from being intimidated, Zubaydah was relieved, and told them that a call to Prince Ahmed would explain all—and he knew all the phone numbers from memory. He also told them to call Prince Sultan bin Faisal bin Turki al-Saud and Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir, members of the House of Saud related to King Fahd.

He said that several years earlier the royal family had made a deal with Al Qaeda in which the House of Saud would aid them as long as they kept terrorism out of Saudi Arabia. The interrogators insisted that 9-11 changed everything—the House of Saud would not stand behind them after that.

Zubaydah said that 9-11 changed nothing, because Ahmed and the others knew beforehand that an attack was scheduled for America that day. They didn’t know exactly what it would be, and they didn’t want to know. Bin Laden knew the Saudis couldn’t stop it without the specifics, and also that they couldn’t turn on him without disclosing their foreknowledge.

Bush helped Ahmed leave the country right after 9-11, unmolested until June 22, 2002, when he supposedly died of a heart attack in his sleep. On June 23, Prince Sultan died in a car wreck. On July 30, Prince Fahd died in the desert of thirst. None was older than 43, and all are beyond questioning now. That these three were named by Zubaydah and then died young a couple of months later is extremely suspicious.

DELIBERATELY FACILITATING THE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE WHO KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT 9-11 OUT OF THE COUNTRY BEFORE THEY COULD BE QUESTIONED MAKES THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ACCESSORIES AFTER THE FACT. REMEMBER IN NOVEMBER!

Sources: Craig Unger, House of Bush, House of Saud, Scribner, 2004
Gerald Posner, Why America Slept: The Failure to Prevent 9/11, Random House, 2003

[JackRiddler]

19. hm, can you prove...

that Abu Zubaydah even exists? Recall this is the guy who was being used as the "source" for all the bogus terror warnings of Spring 2002.

I can support every assertion I make above. Proof is not an absolute, there are different standards. Proof for conviction in a jury trial is more stringent than sufficient evidence to indict. I support a grand jury on 9/11 that considers questions of complicity by U.S. government officials.

I can also demonstrate that the official 9/11 investigations were a cover-up, in that they avoided obvious questions and had outrageous conflicts of interest.

And anyone can see that 9/11 was exploited to the hilt to justify everything the Bush admin was planning and preparing from the start, which would not have been possible without 9/11.

[rooboy]

24. I've noticed the 'Abu Zubayadh' mystery very early on...

never been paraded before a camera, never photographed, never charged, no evidence that he exists. Although what is interesting about him, according to an interview I heard with Craig Ungerer, is that Abu Zubayadh apparently blurted out the home phone and cell numbers of a Saudi prince when under interrogation, apparently saying (paraphrasing) "just call him and everything will be sorted out".

So either he doesn't exist or he does and he's a big embarrassment.

[JackRiddler]

33. Prince Turki

was the Saudi prince you refer to as the one Zubaydah claims to know.

Head of the Saudi CIA-equivalent for 22 years, considered untouchable... until his return from a trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan in early September, 2001. Suddenly, on Sept. 6th, he resigned.

Another interesting loose thread impossible to follow until we acknowledge that there has been no real 9/11 investigation, and that we need one now - with real subpeona power - without a predetermined conclusion (incompetence theory, in the case of the Kean Commission) - with investigators who are genuine (unlike Zelikow, Kean et al.) - with all testimony on record.

[Stephanie]

14. I will keep kicking this until November

:kick:

Brilliant, accurate, succinct.

[graphixtech]

57. Excellent thread

JackRiddler and everyone.



http://www.septembereleventh.org/

[LibertyorDeath]

18. Thank You!

[iconoclastic cat]

22. Hmm...I heard some guy talking about this on the radio today.

Not so crazy, actually. But then, what do I know?

[maggrwaggr]

23. great post. Kinda says it all

I, too, am a coincidence theorist.

[Stephanie]

25. Yes, me too

I am also a coincidence theorist.

Highly unusual. Hit the trifecta!

[lanparty]

26. I'm 90% convinced ...

Honestly, it all sounds as prepostorous as Oliver Stone's JFK. Oh, that is until you examine the WTC 7 collapse.

The WTC 7 collapse is to 9/11 back Kennedy's brains shooting out the BACK of his head is to the Kennedy assasination. It is the piece of evidence that blunts Occum's razor.

Why would anyone plant exlosions in a building and ALSO fly a plane into it. It's simply to complicated to fit Occum's Razor.

But after examining the WTC 7 collapse, I'm 99% certain that it wasn't caused by either fire or diesel eruption. It was a staged, controlled demolition that the Lazio family would be proud of.

Well, all the sudden it doesn't seem so odd to plant explosives in WTC1 and WTC 2 if you're willing to do it in seven.

Three buildings failed from "fire" that day when no steel structure had EVER collapsed from fire. All three fell straight down at the speed of gravity. NONE of them toppled over. The collapses of all three were preceeded by measured seismic disruptions consistent with heavy explosions. Firefighters in the buildings reported hearing explosions. Firefighters in WTC 2 reported that the fires had been contained before the building spontaneously collapsed.

Accident investigators were denied access to the WTC 7 wreckage. Those responsible cited the need to search for survivors in a building that had been evacuated 5 hours before it collapsed. The steel remains were hastily trucked to the far east on barges for destruction at a time when the US stell industry was REELING and desperately needed the business.

BTW, did we mention that Giuliani never graced the "state of the art" command center in WTC 7. Of course, WTC 7 was also where critical evidence on Al-Queda was housed.

Then, the unharmed paper passport of the "ringleader" is found unharmed on top of the 9/11 debris field. The hardened black boxes of the two aircraft containing vital cockpit tapes were "incinerated". The next day, all 16 highjackers (with photos) appeared pre-packaged for our consumption.

I think the Bush administration knew about the attacks. They trailed the 9/11 conspirators to make sure they didn't get into trouble. They killed investigations launched by bright FBI field agents who noticed foreign nationals training to fly 757s but refusing to learn how to take off and land.

They planned their "own" opertion for that day. They wanted all the goods on Saudi links to Al Queda destroyed. They wanted a national disaster that would justify their war aspirations. They planted explosives during those unprecedented times when power was cut to the buildings. They made sure the bomb-sniffing dogs (present since the aftermath of the 93 bombings) were pulled before they sent their "plumber" crews in.

The script was to make it look like fires toppled the buildings. The diesel fuel in WTC 7 would be used as a cover story. WTC 2 was detonated pre-maturely when the fires started going out. The firefighters told us as much on their radios. They sent more men up before it came tumbling down. No uncontrolled fires were raging.

NORAD was given a stand down order. The wargame was scheduled as a cover story for their inaction. The diligent FAA controllers who weren't in on the script were debriefed pre-maturely. Once a higher up official learned of this damming evidence, he destroyed the tape and the FAA controllers were given the "official" story and threatened to keep their silence at the cost of the lives of them and their families.

The Pennsylvania plane did not crash as a result of a scuffle. It was shot down when the Bush team thought that the plane might be recovered with live highjackers on board.

Bush is guilty as hell. He is evil personified. He used 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq conquest and "perpetual warfar".

[midwayer]

32. 911 controlled demolition theory

Good 911 Compilation of articles page

Mainly pushing controlled demolition theory

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html#bombs

[ljm2002]

34. Ya know,

...most days I agree with eridani's suggestion that we "stick with what we can prove". It's certainly damning enough, and should have already resulted in W's impeachment -- not to mention that of Cheney and Rumsfeld as well. And don't even get me started on Condi...

But then once in awhile, I think about those buildings. I'm no expert and I don't pretend to be, so I can't comment on the physics of it. But it certainly was, er, "interesting" how neatly those three buildings came down, wasn't it? And it was also very "interesting" that one of the Bush brothers was involved with a security firm at the WTC complex.

So here's another "interesting" thought: if you wanted to plant explosives in a great big building, where it would take weeks to do so, and you could hardly sneak around unnoticed -- how would you propose to do that? I know what I'd do: I'd infiltrate something like, say, the company that had the elevator maintenance contract.

So here's some more "interesting" information. I offer it as something that does not really even reach the level of suggesting complicity; and yet... it doesn't match with the heroics that were displayed by so many on that day, either. Here goes:

= = = = = = = = = =

Ace Elevator, a small Palisades Park, N.J. company, won the WTC elevator maintenance contract from Otis in 1994 (not that long after the first WTC bombing). Here's a couple of blurbs from the USA Today story dated 12/19/2001 entitled "Mechanics left towers before buildings collapsed" ( url: http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usat-mechanics.htm ):

"On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics -- many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 -- left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed."

"At the time the elevator mechanics left, dozens of people were trapped in stuck elevators."

"The departure of elevator mechanics from a disaster site is unusual."

"Nobody knows the insides of a high-rise like an elevator mechanic." -- emphasis mine, this is a quote from Robert Caporale, editor of Elevator World.

"ACE Elevator President Ron Baamonde says " ... "Our people miraculously left when the second plane hit, and it saved our lives."

= = = = = = = = =

ACE Elevator Co. is the largest privately held elevator company in the tristate area. Interestingly, they do not appear to have their own Web page...

= = = = = = = = =

One more bit that appeared in USA Today nearly a year later, on 9/4/2002 -- "Elevators were disaster within disaster" -- url: http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

"The elevators were a tragic exception to an otherwise successful evacuation that resulted in the survival of 99% of the people who worked below the floors where the jets crashed."

= = = = = = = = =

Okay, now before you start screaming at me, please understand: I make no claims about what happened. My heart goes out to those who were there and lived through this stuff. I don't for a minute believe that 83 elevator mechanics were involved in some conspiracy that culminated in their all saving themselves after planting bombs -- after all, there were real planes that crashed into those buildings...

But, could it be possible that a small cadre of these men were special ops or something like that, unbeknownst to the others or to the company's management? And could they, knowing what was going to happen (the buildings *were* going to collapse, under this scenario), have found a way to steer the whole crew out of harm's way? It is certainly human nature not only to save yourself, but to save those whom you know and have worked with...

Just some wild speculation, based on a "little voice" that's been in the back of my head ever since I first heard suggestions that the buildings could have been brought down by demolition.

[nolabels]

64. Here is link to the international of "ACE"

What does seem suspicious to me is the countries they do business in could double as places where you want to have satellite offices for spooks. Do they have lots of tall buildings in Alabama?

http://www.aceasansor.com/kutuphane/dergiler.htm

[ljm2002]

66. Is this the same ACE?

If so, I agree it is very interesting...

Here's the information I have, from

http://www.nycooperative.com/Contractors/elevators.html

A.C.E. Elevator Co., Inc.
139 E. Central Boulevard, Palisades Park, NJ 07650
Tel: [phone] Fax: [phone] EMAIL: [e-mail]
Contact: Robert Baamonde, Jr. - V.P. Operations

A.C.E. Elevator Co., Inc., established in 1980, is now celebrating its 20th anniversary. We are proud to be recognized as the largest privately owned Elevator Company in the tri-state area. We continue to serve our valued customers in all aspects of the vertical transportation industry: new installations (traction, hydraulic and escalators), modernizations, service and repairs.

Our offices are strategically located in Palisades Park, NJ and Two World Trade Center, where we are currently modernizing and servicing the entire fleet.

<my note -- obviously the verbiage was pre-9/11>

Their D & B DUNS number is: 967553314

Another contact is Richard Novack

An article written by Robert Baamonde, Jr. appeared in Elevator World, Feb. 20, 2001, entitled "Drive to the Top". It's about modernizing the WTC elevator fleet. Link:

http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/0103-002.html-ssi

Okay, that's it -- again, I make no claim other than my own personal speculation and a little voice in the back of my head (and no I don't "hear voices", it's a figure of speech :P ).

Anyway... don't mind indulging in a little tinfoilery from time to time... :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[NecessaryOnslaught]

76. An interesting thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5750&forum=DCForumID43&archive=yes#40

Some of the info on this thread is cited in Griffin's "The New Pearl Harbor."

I pondered the elevator repair theory myself. It's possible that the building was wired in unison with the elevator upgrade.

The explosives could have been brought in later, maybe the weekend of 9/7, when "bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed". http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-nyaler122362178sep12,0,1255660.story

and there was a possible powerdown.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/THO404A.html

[NecessaryOnslaught]

35. WTC 7 Mortage holders- CFR- Federal Reserve, Skull and Bones

"Originally, when Mr. Silverstein developed the property in the 1980s, $449.4 million in debt was provided by Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association. In 2000, Blackstone bought the debt from TIAA, financing the purchase by selling $383 million in bonds in a private placement that was lead managed by Banc of America Securities LLC. Banc of America, which is responsible for representing the bondholders"
http://homes.wsj.com/columnists_com/bricks/20020710-bricks.html

Construction of the new World Trade Center 7 began in 2002
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=170407

BLACKSTONE GROUP

CHAIRMAN
Peter G. Peterson is Chairman and Co-Founder of The
Blackstone Group. He is Chairman of the Council on Foreign
Relations, founding Chairman of the Institute for International
Economics (Washington, D.C.) and founding President of The
Concord Coalition. Mr. Peterson is the Co-Chair of The
Conference Board Commission on Public Trust and Private
Enterprises (Co-Chaired by John Snow, currently Secretary of
the Treasury). He was also Chairman of the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York from 2000 to 2004.
Prior to founding Blackstone, Mr. Peterson was Chairman and
CEO of Lehman Brothers (1973–1977) and later Chairman and
CEO of Lehman Brothers, Kuhn, Loeb Inc. (1977–1984). He
was Chairman and CEO of Bell and Howell Corporation from
1963 to 1971.
In 1971, President Richard Nixon named Mr. Peterson
Assistant to the President for International Economic Affairs.
He was named Secretary of Commerce by President Nixon in
1972. At that time he also assumed the Chairmanship of President Nixon’s National Commission on Productivity and was appointed U.S. Chairman of the U.S.–Soviet Commercial Commission, which negotiated comprehensive trade, Ex-Im credit, arbitration, copyright and lend-lease agreements.
http://www.blackstone.com/team/pdfs%5Cpeterson_pete.pdf


Stephen A. Schwarzman is President, CEO and Co-Founder
of The Blackstone Group. He has been involved in all phases
of the firm’s development since its founding in 1985 and
approves all capital commitments by the firm.
Mr. Schwarzman began his career at Lehman Brothers,
where he was elected Managing Director in 1978 at the age
of 31. He was engaged principally in the firm’s mergers and
acquisitions business from 1977 to 1984, and served as
Chairman of the firm’s Mergers & Acquisitions Committee in
1983 and 1984...He is also amember of the Council on Foreign Relations

Mr. Schwarzman holds a BA from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. (Skull and Bones 68')

http://www.blackstone.com/team/pdfs/Schwarzman_Stephen.pdf

The SEC

Maybe no financial institution lost more critical documents than the Securities and Exchange Commission, which had its New York regional office at 7 World Trade Center. While the regulatory agency was fortunate in that it lost no employees in the terror attacks, it suffered setbacks in a number of long-running securities investigations.

SEC officials won't discuss how many cases may have been impacted by the terror attacks, but they claim the lost information was limited to two weeks' worth of data stored on the agency's computers that hadn't yet been backed up.

But it's clear from talking to securities lawyers who practice before the SEC that things haven't gone as smoothly as the agency would like the public to believe.

"Regardless of what the regulators say, they lost a ton of files," says Bill Singer, a New York securities lawyer, who says one case he had pending before the SEC quickly settled because so many of the original documents were destroyed. "In my opinion it was a wholesale loss of documents".

http://www.thestreet.com/markets/matthewgoldstein/10041194.html

[Jose Diablo]

42. In regards to SEC documentation loss

Wasn't the Enron fraud documentation relating to energy trading activities in California lost in WTC 7 collapse.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

71. Nothing specific

I haven't been able to find anything that specifically say that the SEC lost Enron documentation on 9/11. At the same time I haven't seen anything that specifically says they did NOT lose any documentation either. :shrug:

[nolabels]

67. These crafty people with lots of bucks often have miraculous events

Help them with their net loss, turning it into a net gain. Even if the folks that owned the building (who ever it was, this is pure speculation)would proabably not lift a finger if their ass was getting bailed out because it happened. My guess they probably knew nada, but got a great help with their portfolio looking at this (Alex Jones leads again). Another thing might be the premiums for liability insurance was also eating them alive, after the first time someone tried to blow it from before

http://www.erisk.com/news/weekly/news_weekly2001-05-11_01.asp
May 5 - 11, 2001
"Chalk up one victory for insurers in the escalating asbestos-claims mOlOe: the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey has lost a 10-year-old court battle to get its insurers to pay more than $600 million for removing asbestos from its properties, including the World Trade Center and New York's airports. The judge ruled that asbestos abatement costs by themselves do not constitute 'physical loss or damage' under the Port Authority's all-risk policies. The agency is considering an appeal."

http://www.fumento.com/asbest.html

Copyright 1989 by The American Spectator
"Coming soon to a school or office near you: a life-saving innovation that could kill you, designed to correct a problem that doesn't exist, by removing materials that aren't dangerous until somebody tries to remove them. And guess who's going to pay for it." ... "For example, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is expecting to pay about $1 billion for the abatement of just the World Trade Center and LaGuardia Airport. (New York City law requires abatement if renovation work is being done, as it is at these buildings.) ..."

Based on this information, it can be said with reasonable certainty that several tons of asbestos were in the World Trade Center. With the dust of the WTC now clouding the city, contamination is very likely, but measurings of the dust should be taken before jumping to any conclusions. After my search, some news media started to mention the asbestos issue, mostly this ABCNews article which states that

The Trade Center reportedly decided more than 10 years ago to treat the health risk by encapsulating the asbestos to prevent the particles from being inhaled.

To my knowledge, "encapsulating" means that the asbestos fibers are simply painted over, or that asbestos-covered shafts are sealed, to avoid direct human contact and air contamination. With both WTC towers destroyed, this "encapsulation" is of no relevance. What matters is the degree of asbestos-contamination which is now in New York City. As school is supposed to begin again tomorrow, this problem should be addressed as soon as possible. Residents of NYC should stay in their homes, keep their windows closed and shut down the air conditioning (the filters won't work on the fiber).

Because of the lawsuits mentioned in the above articles, information on asbestos use in the WTC will also be hard to find (consider the potential damages involved as a good motivation for a cover-up). It is also likely that NY authorities will not publish asbestos air measurings in order to avoid wide-spread panic and possibly accountability (since Port Authorities have delayed a clean-up for years). The health problems this fallout will bring will remain unknown for a long time.
(snip)
http://www.immuneweb.org/911/articles/moeller.html

[Chelsea Patriot]

58. Explosives at WTC

Pug still had to go outside that morning.

We got outside just in time for the collapse of the first Tower.

My initial response was "My God, There's bombs too!"

I had felt a tremor and a gigantic mushroom cloud rose up and began rolling up Hudson Street

The cloud blew through our apartment, coating everything with a pulverized gritty, greasy dust.

One of the worst days of my life was spent cleaning my floors of this debris. The 1500,unfound bodies? Those people ended up as atomized dust in my upholstery. No amount of crushing floors could reduce two steel structures to that finely grained powder.

I find it 'amusing' to read the mocking detractors who assure people that it couldn't possible have been explosives that brought down the Twin Towers.

Were they there? Did they experience the Sept. 11th Massacres first hand? Why is it so difficult to believe that explosives were planted in the WTC?

The Bush Family are the ringleaders of a Blood Cult--the more death and destruction the better.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

70. Thanks and welcome.

Anytime you feel up to giving some details of the "collapse", I would love to hear it. :hi:

[TrustingDog]

61. siesmic data on 911...

http://www.public-action.com/911/suit/seismic-afp-9-5-02/

NEW SEISMIC DATA REFUTES OFFICIAL EXPLANATION

 Two unexplained “spikes” in the seismic record from Sept. 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center’s twin towers immediately prior to the collapse.

 

Exclusive to American Free Press

By Christopher Bollyn

 

American Free Press has learned of pools of “molten steel” found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic “spikes” at the beginning of each collapse.

These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of “literally molten steel” were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

[AliceWonderland]

29. Great post, thanks (n/t)

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. All four planes

were supposed to take off within 15 minutes of each other, with the last ones out by 8:01. The whole operation was supposed to be over by 9:00 AM. If everything stayed on schedule, W would have arrived at Booker to the news that at least 3 planes had already hit their targets. He was never supposed to have to continue with the rest of the agenda.

When the plan got hung up, then W had to along with the original program and had to fake his way through the next half hour. Only when they couldn't stall anymore, did W or anyone else in the chain of command begin to react to the emergency. By the time the Pentagon got hit, enough of the mission was completed that they could then go into 'action'.

[Sterling]

36. I think you are right!!!

Wow this is one of the best tin foil hats ever. In a good way. I usually have a hard time even considering the WTC colapse and the timing of the attacks. In fact I usaully don't like to speculate but I think a lot of blanks have just been filled in for me.

[JackRiddler]

68. Yes, this is very logical

Thank you for making obvious the obvious! AA77 was about 20 minutes late, UA93 had a 42-minute delay. These were apparently meant to hit DC at around the same time as the towers were hit. That would have obviously altered the do-nothing actions of the chain of command, Bush for example would have no excuse for staying in the school after that.

Complicating things is the matter of Vigilant Warrior - apparently the "red team" side in the military wargames simulating the hijack-kamikaze scenario of the day. (There was Vigilant Guardian, simulating unknown objects on military radar screens, the existence of Vigilant Warrior was revealed in Richard Clarke's book but the details were redacted.)

Getting entirely speculative here: Was one of the flights actually planned as part of the wargames? This is a possible explanation for AA77 and the Pentagon anomalies that would finally answer the question: Why would the military bother using a smaller object to fake an airliner attack on the Pentagon, when they could just use the actual airliner? Meaning: AA77 (or a plane dressed up as that flight) was meant to be a live-aircraft fake hijacking, as part of the day's exercises. When "real" hijackings and kamikaze hits interposed, the game was cancelled, possibly simply by having it land at the Ohio-Kentucky border (where it disappeared for about 15 minutes according to the official story) and spiriting away the passengers. It would have seemed vital to cover up the existence of such a wargame and the fact that it was compromised from within to allow real attacks. But then, how to cover for the missing airliner? Shoot a missile into the near-empty side of the Pentagon and claim it was the airliner?

Again, above speculative. Unlike what I present in the original "coincidence" post. So far, no one disputes, the only critiques are adhominem, juvenile spews.

[DoYouEverWonder]

75. I am convinced that the entire event was supposed to be over

by 9:00 AM.

That was why all the flights were the first ones out in the morning. Those flights are rarely delayed, especially on a beautiful fall day in Sept.

W would have just been pulling up to Booker, when he would have been informed that 3 to 4 planes had hit major targets in the US. He may or may not have jumped out of his limo, to make a brief statement to the press, before speeding off to deal with the emergency. His reactions would have been completely appropriate and with the right spin even heroic.

However, when the script fell apart so did W, cause everybody knows, he doesn't have a clue what to do without a script. And for a brief window of time we get to see how W and his accomplices all really reacted to the attack. All of them sat on their hands waiting for the attack to finish. All of them knew what was happening and let it happen.

Hopefully someday soon, everyone will know the truth about 9-11 and we can be done with this cabal that has taken over our country.

[Sterling]

81. I have always said the Booker video proves he was acting.

I think the important this to know about the booker video is that he never meant for us to know he knew about the first plane before he entered the school. It slipped out in a live TV interview after a question from a teen.


He sat there smiling until he was told of the second attack by card. Knowing now that he knew of the first attack while sitting their smiling makes me believe he was the Card whisper was scripted as “the moment” he was first informed.

[JackRiddler]

115. Okay, but...

Would the presumed planners really leave something this important up to the vagaries of flight takeoff times? I would guess the delay rate on all flights is probably above 50 percent.

[ljm2002]

116. I think it was pointed out earlier...

...that takeoff times for the first flights of the morning aren't delayed that often -- especially on a beautiful September day like Sept. 11 was...

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[JackRiddler]

118. yes but

This was not planned and executed on the same day because the weather was good. How would they know what the weather would be like?

[NecessaryOnslaught]

120. Pure speculation

:tinfoilhat: HAARP? :shrug: :tinfoilhat:

[stickdog]

121. Well, it's strange, but that's the only way it makes sense.

JR,

Consider that if real suicidal hijackers existed and were fully aware of the plot -- as in the supposed "We have more planes" transmission -- why in the world would they have waited until the delayed Flight 77 was almost to Dallas and the even more delayed Flight 93 was almost to Toledo to turn around?

Wouldn't they have expected to get shot down if they didn't hit their targets with 20 minutes of each other? And even if we theorize that something caused them to delay, why didn't Flight 93 just pick a target in Pittsburgh -- which it flew right by more than an hour after the first plane had struck? Would putative terrorist hijackers really COUNT ON our air defenses being so woefully slow that they could get all the way back to DC to hit their target more than 90 minutes after the first target was struck?

The way the whole thing makes most sense is if the flight PATHS were programmed into the autopilot computers with the expectation that the planes would all take off about the same time. Then the idea would be to get everyone's attention with the NYC strikes just to have them treated to the DC strikes (and perhaps even a final heroic shoot down to protect the White House) once the entire nation had turned on the television.

Think bad Republican screenwriters.

Bush's otherwise completely bizarre and unexplainable reaction is the give away. Ari holding up the "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET" sign in the back of the classroom shows them doing what they don't do well: improvising.

[stickdog]

102. Yes. That's why Bush's, Myers' and Rumsfeld's 'actions' between 9:05 and

9:35 just don't add up.

[xocolatl]

37. Occam's Razor

My general sense, after following the news that has dribble out over the last (almost) three years, and after reading the volumes contributed by fellow DU'ers, is the following:

The only theory that satisfactory explains most of the data is that the Bush administration, or parties closely tied to the Bush adminstration, either planned 911 or manipulated Al Qaeda behind the scenes.

In any case, it is clear the Bush administration knew it would happen beforehand.

Horrible, but apparently true.

[gandalf]

38. I am glad to see

that your post is none of these "Occam's razor disproves MIHOP and that's all I have to say" replies.

[LunaC]

39. Just by coincidence (More for the mix)

In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


Meanwhile, the U.S. Embassy in the UAE received a call that Bin Laden supporters were in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives. It was rumored that Bin Laden was interested in hijacking U.S. aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf


In June 2001 the decades-old procedure for a quick response by the nation’s air defense was changed. NORAD’s military commanders could no longer issue the command to launch fighter jets because approval had to be sought from the civilian Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing7/for_the_record_ashley.pdf


In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html


In September 2001 the "catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the White House members of the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked with U.S. aircraft as Rumsfeld sat passive and unresponsive. Immediately, the finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911 hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=8830
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160


In October 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War On Terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting


Shorrtly afterwards, public focus was diverted to Iraq. You already know the rest of the story.





For details on the PNAC coup of the White House see "The Whispering Campaign" link below.

[Zorra]

40. 9/11 is an inside job? Only Homer Simpson doesn't know that.

Homer is the paper hat coincidence theorist that discovered tomacco.

[Jose Diablo]

41. Bu$h said he hit the trifecta

As said in betting on horse racing, "the fix was in".

9-11 was MIHOP.

Don't forget anthrax, how it helped Patriot Act to be passed without opposition.

Luck my ascot.

[nolabels]

43. The two we got to trace the foot steps of was just dumb luck

Thanks for the thread, 9/11 was just one day, the before and after are just as important in different ways.

Just remember, the Declaration of Independence was a coincidence too :kick:

Btw anybody got a link to that report about the radio broadcast that told who the Hi-jackers were just ten minutes after second tower was hit?

[gatorboy]

44. I think this FR link is interesting

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39ff11284381.htm

I thought this comment was interesting:

" I just hope that since Bush is a fighter pilot President we dont get invaded like the movie, Independence Day."

There are others talking about how Bush made a better pick in case we had to go to war. This was in 2000 and it's as if they were already prepping the idea. Y'know just in "case" we ever had to go to war.

[TomNickell]

45. ROFLMAO. The Conspiracy Hobbyists Strike again.

The usual Bullshit, regurgitated, chewed, swallowed.

Yummy.

Don't you guys -ever- get tired?

[gandalf]

47. Why do you post to these threads if you don't like them?

You are free to ignore them if you don't want to contribute substance.

[Bridget Burke]

50. These threads are just about the only ones he frequents.

It's his hobby.

[gandalf]

52. OK. I know more of this type in the 9/11 forum...

Thanks for the comment.

[TomNickell]

86. I NEVER VISIT THE 9/11 FORUM.

I post dissents to these threads for the same reason I would post dissents from any other offensive nonsense.

[Sterling]

91. Well thanks for the kick.

And the laugh.

[bpilgrim]

96. whoda thunk it ;->

you trumpet your ignorance with this post, thank you :toast:

peace

[homelandpunk]

119. Now THAT is a goddamned LIE!!!!!

That is where I KNOW you from.....posting your 9/11 shit. And it IS true: it is the only time you have anything to say. It's your fucking hobby. KEE-RICED.

[homelandpunk]

129. Gah-ah'd day-ummmmmmmmn! Didn't even bother to refute!! haha

holy shit....

[stickdog]

103. 900 of his 942 posts are like this. This is his HOBBY, so to speak. (nt)

[bobbyboucher]

74. Right on cue.

Again.

[leesa]

51. I think that's pretty obvious by now.

[TNOE]

53. If the General Populace was

astute enough to study Hitler's rise even briefly, they would 'get it', but unfortunately, lots of Americans don't like to read or think. And that's the way your government likes you. Head firmly up your asses so you couldn't see the truth if it were served on a silver platter. Ignorance is just not pretty - and puts us all at risk.

Great Post Jack! Thanks for keeping the truth to the light.

Speaking of Hitler - good read

From Hitler to Bush
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6481.htm

Snip:

by Dr. Federico Fasano Mertens

March 30th, 2003 "La República del Uruguay" A few days ago I received a letter from Martin Silverstein, the US ambassador to Uruguay, accusing La República, a publication which I am honoured to edit, of "totally lacking any sense of journalistic integrity" by comparing George Bush, the president of his country, to Adolf Hitler, the chancellor of the Third Reich.

I have been unable to reply to him any sooner because the act of piracy which his country has committed, attacking a defenceless and close to disarmed country with the most formidable killing machine that the history of the world has ever known, has forced me to devote more than the usual amount of time to publishing special editions on the slaughter. I also found myself taken up by trying to convict US-trained uniformed torturers who had slandered me, a task which I have only recently been able to bring to completion.

Snip:
The criminal demolition of the Twin Towers brought about the same mire as the burning of the Reichstag. Obviously, I am not about to be so bold as to join those who accuse the Bush warmongers of having orchestrated the massacre or of not stopping it when they learnt of its preparation. There is no conclusive proof for such an outrageous statement, though there are many signs of criminal negligence and huge suspicion which is only encouraged by strict censorship that is without precedent in modern US democracy. Some day, when the American people fully recover their freedom of information and investigate that black Tuesday morning of September 11, today corralled by a Patriot Act, approved with the single vote against of a woman, a symbol of national US dignity, we shall be able to find out why the many tell-tale signs of an impending large-scale assassination left throughout the country were ignored. We shall be able to learn why the Air Force jets took 80 minutes to intercept the hijacked planes, when it was known that the planes were hijacked and heading for Washington as soon as they took off from Boston and the manual lays down the procedure for the intervention of the Air Force within 5 minutes of a hijack.

Snip:
The American Burning of the Reichstag of September 11 gave George Bush the chance of a lifetime. The worst electoral victory of a US president since 1876 had turned into the best historical opportunity for a warmonger to impose a new US order on the world.

Snip:
Let's go on and look at other similarities between the warrior for the Aryan race and "God's warrior", as Telma Luzzani so perceptively calls the excitable Texan. Bush declares a pre-emptive war, urbi et orbe. In 1953, Dwight Eisenhower had no doubts on the matter: "Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing seriously".

Snip:
This language which oozes from Bush's pores and brain is a dense, authoritarian, intimidating use of language which inevitably leads to morally perverting the ends to justify the means. The essential nature of the language used by the Bush gang, as with the language of the Nazis, is its simplification, reductionism and intimidation. This predatory group's language is a schematic, emotional language loaded with prejudices which inflame the people's noblest sentiments. I have no doubt that Bush feeds off the same source as Nazi language.

Snip:
Like Hitler, Bush does not believe in the Rule of Law. This is not a State which possesses Laws, but a State which yields, of its own accord, to the rule of law and in no circumstances can it break the law, even less for reasons of State. Abominable crimes have been committed in the name of reasons of State, or the Homeland, or national security.

Snip:
The Bush clique's discourse is a discourse between master and slave. It is no different from the Hitler clique's discourse. One is friendlier than the other. Though history is showing us that the less friendly one was less lethal.

[JackRiddler]

107. What an amazing article...

Everyone should read this witty, brilliant essay. Savor it.

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6481.htm

And thanks to all who have expressed praise for this post. Let's keep it kicked. Time to be provocative, I say.

[Kazak]

54. Kick

Heavy stuff.

[KoKo]

55. I like your theme: "Just by Coincidence." It's a good way of presenting

the information that we know, but many folks like to discount by calling it "conspiracy theory."

A great article..hope it gets passed around.

[HallowsEve]

56. Just a message of support

regarding this information.

The paradigms that would have to be broken in order for these revelations to be understood will lead to a chain reaction of paradigm destruction that many many people just could not handle psychologically. Many of the knee jerk responses to this info is actually psychological self-defense. By re-introducing these ideas on a regular basis on mainstream forums like this one (apologies to those who believe this is really "underground") it will eventually have to come to the forefront of our collective consciousness, be discussed, acted upon and someday, finally, purged.

[TNOE]

60. Welcome to DU

HallowsEve :hi:

Thanks for the message. Yep, some of us have been at this since 9/12/01 - and we don't plan on stopping until the truth is realized. We've come a long way baby! With more miles to go before we sleep.

[xocolatl]

65. Exactly...

Most people erect a cognitive barrier against "evil". They simply cannot conceive of a human being deliberately signing off on thousands of deaths (even though the war on Iraq was exactly that, except in that case the deaths were supposed to be just Arabs).

Another paradigm that would have to be examined is the meme that America can do no wrong. Of course, any even-handed reading of history proves otherwise, but most people think of us Americans as the "good guys".

[KoKo]

69. Yep...the old "My Country...Right or Wrong." So many folks hiding

behind that because to believe otherwise would rock their foundations, and cause them to ask questions they don't want to know the answer to.
:-(

TNOE is correct. "Miles to go before we sleep" on this.

[Fusions_Minion]

78. well said

[noiretextatique]

73. of course it was

"in politics nothing happens by accident. if it happened, you can bet it was planned that way." Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[Fusions_Minion]

77. It's twue, it's twue..

Evil is as evil does.

[ocean girl]

79. A few months ago, I discovered DU and my eyes were opened.

As a very intuitive female, I knew that the facts of 9-11 didn't add up, but until I found this forum, I couldn't put it together.

I'm grateful for the education I gotten from DU - thanks everyone, for your courage and integrity.

Anyone who's fully awake knows the truth.

[Sterling]

93. Very few people stay here more than a few weeks

without seeing 9-11 in a new light.

[Auntie Bush]

95. "Anyone who's fully awake knows the truth. "

You also have to be a DUer! Need to be more than just awake.

By the way, Welcome to DU. :hi: Glad you had a wakening!

[Sterling]

97. Kick

For no mercy for Tom Nickel.

[ocean girl]

98. Thanks for the welcome! I proudly display my DU sticker on my car

I keep hoping someone will ask me about it, but so far everyone's asleep in my neighborhood!

[stickdog]

99. That pretty much says it all.

It's always easier to pull off something like this with inside help:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=13762

[JackRiddler]

111. Tribute to Stickdog

Your primer is great and when I feel lazy I just throw it at people who ask about 9/11.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=13762

[midwayer]

105. Feds knew about 9-11 bribery conspiracy before attacks

Just in case some may have missed this

Exclusive: Breaking 9-11 scandal


ORLANDO, FL -- Tuesday, July 13, 2004 Posted 1:30 PM EDT -- TomFlocco.com -- Homeland Security whistleblower Mary Schneider is naming names, revealing that former FBI Director Louis Freeh, Attorney General John Ashcroft, FBI Director Robert Mueller and numerous U.S. senators and congressmen knew before the September 11 attacks that U.S. immigration officials were bribed by an illegal Moroccan Muslim allegedly linked to Osama bin Laden’s half-brother. This according to Schneider, who was told about the illegal alien's ties to terrorism by outside informant Bonnie Sharrit.

http://www.tomflocco.com/

[midwayer]

106. Long article

Scroll down and don't miss hitting the "read more" button for the full article

http://www.tomflocco.com/

[foolmeonce]

110. would they have had to go THIS far with the planned event.

wouldn't one nice hit and a couple near (idiot terrorist) misses have done the trick?

sure seems to me that they could have picked a tarmac more friendly than the wtc.

i don't exactly dispute your claims rather wonder if the right brothers are THAT sick.

[nomatrix]

114. Who are you asking about OBL or GWB?

Sarcasm off.

Welcome to DU. What kind of statement gets made from a tarmac? What is inside the buildings, and what they represent. The PA crash took away the significant D.C. hit, which I believe was congress. Ask yourself, while all this is going on, Cheney knows there is a plane headed for D.C. The WH is emptied. Why was congress not evacuated? When they emergerged, the senators were pissed as they were stopped by C-Span questions, asking why weren't they told to evacuate?

Go see F9/11 and see the questions he asks. Look for the answers. Most of DU has been doing that since 9/11.

[graphixtech]

112. Get involved!

There will be many things going on this summer with 911Truth.org.
I encourage everyone to go to 911Visibility and get involved in your city's actions today-http://www.septembereleventh.org/index.php

http://www.septembereleventh.org/kc/multimedia/

[JackRiddler]

113. What she said!

http://www.911truth.org

[TomNickell]

122. ROFLMAO. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

What a festering pile of horseshit!

120 posts and counting.

-When- will the administrators move this krap to the proper sewer where it can fester in safety and silence?

[xocolatl]

124. So, Tom ...

... this is your 943rd post, after the last one (942nd) a couple of days ago. Is your sole contribution to DU posts such as this one? You have nothing else to say?

[ljm2002]

125. roflmao, yep...

...but I bet it isn't what you're laughing at.

There's a place for analysis, and there's a place for hypothesis and yes, even speculation. It's all part of the process of arriving at the truth. Those who insist that we start with only that which we can prove, don't understand that you have to *have* a hypothesis before you can *prove* it.

I do agree that some of the ideas bandied about are highly unlikely, for example the assertion that it was not an airliner that flew into the Pentagon. I find this hard to believe not through physical analysis, but for the simple reasons that (a) there were eyewitness accounts stating that an airliner hit the building, and (b) none of the passengers or crewmembers on that flight ever returned home.

Of course, the fact that so much about 9/11 has been hidden, the fact that any investigation was squashed for so long, the fact that the official story doesn't jibe very well with reality -- all of these things tend to add fuel to the fire of wild speculation. Forums like this one allow people to think out loud and share their wild ass ideas with one another -- obviously we don't all believe everything that is written here.

Anyway: Mr. Nickell, if you hate these threads so much, just put them on ignore. Otherwise, you're likely to get a big bad bruise on your forehead from beating it against this here brick wall...

:nopity:

[nolabels]

128. There's a place for analysis, and there's a place for hypothesis..........

And a lot more places also, you just need not wonder, Chimpy will solve it :D



27 of 31 people found the following review helpful:

Stunning revelations, July 10, 2004
Reviewer: A reader (tucson, AZ USA)
Anyone who is not blinded by the slick management of the GW Bush image has noticed arresting quirks in George's management of his own words, his own facial expressions, and his total disengagement from constructive dialogue. Dr. Frank puts all this into a coherent picture of a very neurotic personality. These revelations are unique because the media, as a whole, have missed the boat on criticizing Bush, who shuts them up when he can anyway, and the many other negative commentaries on the Bush presidency fail to make the case that our leader has a pathological personality so severe that he is unfit for office.
Scan the major premises of the book and then go to see Fahrenheit 9/11 where the glaring truths from the book are given face in candid images of this man in action. Re-elect this man if you want America flushed down the tubes forever.

Was this review helpful to you?
(snip)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060736704/002-0528405-7055208?v=glance#product-details

[JackRiddler]

127. When?

Maybe the administrators are among the apparent majority of DUers who do not buy the Official Conspiracy Theory of the 9/11 Attacks.

[Norquist Nemesis]

123. I believe a plane hit the Pentagon. Here's why...

Background on this...A couple of months ago I went as a school chaperone to a trip to DC. As one of our sights, we were hoping to get a tour of the Pentagon. A lot of logistics had to happen including turning in our names, social security number, date and place of birth for this particular site.

One of the parents on the trip has a brother who's best friend works in the Pentagon. At the time, that was all we knew about this person at the Pentagon. After several cellphone calls back and forth firming up plans (while we were already IN DC), everything got cleared and we got our date and time to be there for the tour.

It turns out, this friend is no less than a J4 working on counter terrorism. He works FOR one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...directly reports to him. Our group was about 20 people total, so another person in that office also came on the tour. A Chief Petty Officer who followed up the rear of the group. I'm not too knowledgeable about recognizing uniforms and such, but I think the "friend" was Army.

Anyway...the first place we went to on the tour was the 9/11 Memorial in the Pentagon. This was the first time the 'friend' had been to the Memorial since it opened...he wasn't even certain exactly where it was. Once inside the room, he recounted the day it had happened.

He had only been assigned to the Pentagon since July of that year. He was in a dentists office chair in an opposite wing from where the plane hit and because of the way the building is constructed, it was several minutes before they even knew what had happend. He said once they had worked on getting survivors out, they were then collecting pieces of the plane. There were pieces of the plane INSIDE THE COURTYARD! I presume they must have flown over the building to this area.

The two things that convinces me that a plane hit are this (one fact, one emotional): 1) He said the luggage was strewn all along the road leading toward the building. 2) As he was telling us this, he had to stop and compose himself...the man started to cry. You could tell he was getting emotional, but when he stopped in midsentence, put his head down and then I could see tears rolling down his cheeks. I knew at that point that a plane really had hit the Pentagon.

I've watched the videos and read the sites and theories. I had my doubts. But this was way too powerful. It happened.

[JackRiddler]

126. This is why...

I don't generally get into speculations about the Pentagon hole. It looks too small in the pics, yes, but we don't have a record of the attack to say for sure what might have happened (the five still frames with the wrong timestamp don't count). If the official story is true the govt. has the video from the Sheraton, from the gas station, from the Pentagon parking lot and photos of all debris, plane parts, bodies... grisly yes but the demand for a release is reasonable.

[TomNickell]

130. BULLSHIT RISES. AGAIN.

AND AGAIN AND AGAIN......

The Conspiracy Hobbyist never sleeps.

[TomNickell]

131. O' I meant to add this to the main thread!

O' well.

[TomNickell]

132. AND the Pentagon was hit by a missile and so was...

the WTC. Before it was imploded by a controlled demolition, of course. And then Bush caused the Earthquake in Iran and cut off all those people's heads.

And my cat is psychic. And so am I.

And a guy from Neptune sends out rays that make my milk turn sour.