Ignore Magnetic Pole Reversal At Your Own Risk.

[Ripley]

It seems there is a similarly odd Drudge LBN post...

But I have heard Mars' decline was due to this very thing. Supposedly our planet Earth has had a pole reversal in the past (when unpopulated by humans, so no big deal).

If this were to happen again, what would be the physical results?

Any scientists out there to help me deflect the inevitable wise ass comic book loving funny-boys?

[Columbia]

1. Have you seen X-Men?

:)

[Ripley]

2. No.

I'm really talking science here, not comic books.

[Columbia]

24. It is science

The magnetic field that surrounds the Earth plays a role in shielding us from harmful cosmic rays. If it is disrupted, these rays can penetrate our atmosphere causing point mutations in our genes and possibly causing species around the world to undergo a dramatic increase in evolution.

[Guaranteed]

30. Excellent!

I call Cyclops!

[tinanator]

51. damn. OK no problem

I call Jean Grey. "Jean..." (cheesy Logan under his breath cliche remark I can never get out of my head when I see some X-Men reference)
Forget the election, we need to stamp out mutations.
unless theyre hot redhead mutations. dribble, drool :P
Kirby, Cockrum, Adams, BWS, Roth, Steranko, anything but Byrne!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. Don't forget Sienkiewicz!

[Old and In the Way]

3. Pretty sure all batteries would have to change direction to work properly.

;-)

[tridim]

9. All 1's will change to 0's on your hard disk

and you'll have to buy a 0/1-converter from Microsoft to fix it. $29.95 at your local computer megastore.

You know.. I wrote that as a joke and it got me to thinking could it actually be true? I would think all polar magnets would flip poles. Right?

[Renew Deal]

16. lol

One of the funniest posts ever. I think you are part right. I think the disks would be wiped out. All 0's

[ThoughtCriminal]

50. Luckily, I've been using an old keyboard

So all my ones are lower case "L" and zeros are actually capital "O".

[proud patriot]

4. Just FYI

A native American Medicine man told me of
an upcoming shift of the poles .

He told me this about 12 years ago .

[indigobusiness]

31. Was he Hopi?

Will you share anything else he told you?

[proud patriot]

45. No not Hopi, Iroquois Nation

They come from New York State originally , really
close friends of my family . I am a descendant of
Seminole and Cherokee Human Beings .

He drew a map in the sand , it was pretty hard to
follow . He said nowhere will be 100% safe, but there
will be survivors everywhere. Where there is water will
go dry , where there are desserts will become oceans .

The mountain tops where sea shells have been found
will once again be the sea .

The things that men have built that destroy will
be buried , technology wiped away .

According to him this is a naturally occurring process
on the planet , and that it has happened many times before .

A cleansing process if you will .

[Ripley]

48. Thank you for that poetry...

It is such a light in this thread....

[proud patriot]

85. You betcha

:-)

[shanti]

82. a cleansing....

it sure makes sense.

[DoYouEverWonder]

72. Funny, my oceanography teacher

told me the same thing about 30 years ago.

Maybe your medicine man was in my class?

[Guaranteed]

5. That's what happened to Mars?

Wow...and look at Mars now. Brutal.

Hopefully the living beings on Earth will have a chance to adjust considering that this is going to be happening, in theory, over a matter of hundreds or thousands of years.

[arcos]

10. the whole process, yes...

the article claims there has been a 10-15% reduction over a 150 years period. If the same ratio continues, in 100 years effects will probably be more noticeable. So... no, the problem will not affect us, but our great grandsons.

[Guaranteed]

11. If the same ratio continues, we

should already be seeing the worst of it.

[qazplm]

15. slow down guys

what happened to Mars is that it lost it's atmosphere and its surface water.

Had nothing to do with pole shifting.

[Ripley]

22. What is your theory?

Of Mars decline? Then.

[BillZBubb]

6. Nova did a good show on this

Here's a link to the homepage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/

I think that will answer most of your questions.

For people, the results probably would be too dramatic, although during the change, the Aurora Borealas would show up in various parts of the world until the reversal was completed. There would be periods of intense cosmic ray exposure in various areas too as the field fluctuated.

[Ripley]

13. Thanks.

But it doesn't answer our Human questions does it?

It sounds like it would be beautiful to observe from outside the Earth.

[theHandpuppet]

67. Tonight's PBS NOVA: "Magnetic Storm"

Check your local listings, of course, but here at least PBS will be broadcasting NOVA's "Magnetic Storm", pertaining to this very subject.

Check out this cool site: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/

[proud patriot]

84. Cool thanks for the heads up

I'll be sure to watch that :hi:

[Snow]

7. I find a good start is always wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field

which has these encouraging words:
"since a magnetic field reversal has never been observed by humans, and the mechanism of field generation is not well understood, it is difficult to say what the characteristics of the magnetic field might be leading up to such a reversal."

Hmmmm. there you have it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Maybe, maybe not....from PBS' NOVA....

<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/reversals.html>

[indigobusiness]

8. There's another thread

on this.

on edit-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x681622

[Ripley]

14. You are kidding?

Really? where? ...

[indigobusiness]

21. Just wanted to provide a link

For those interested.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x681622

[Ripley]

25. Thanks for that.

link...but hell, it ain't a contest!

Just a thought.

[indigobusiness]

34. More info ...not competition...sheesh.

Apply some Boudreaux's...for crying out loud.

[buycitgo]

20. you know the response.......generous applications of this:

case closed

[indigobusiness]

26. Caps?

What good are generous applications of caps?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

33. What is your grip?

bud?

[indigobusiness]

35. why are you so hostile?

bud

[qazplm]

12. well

if you are talking magnetic pole reversal, it takes 1000s of years to happen and you wouldnt notice much of the effects during your lifetime.

if you are talking about a physical slipping of the entire Earths crust, I have heard some say that could happen, that would probably be much worse if true.

[spinbaby]

65. If I remember Nova

I did see the Nova show and, if I remember correctly, magnetic pole reversal happens within a matter of hours. They had an old lava flow that showed the effects of reversal just within the time the lava was flowing.

[AngryAmish]

17. Mars died because of lack of a moon

or so I heard. This is my understanding. But, this subject is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of my realm of expertise.

However, if you have a question about ECW wrestling or the Replacements, I can probably answer it.

[Renew Deal]

18. I am more worried about Poll reversal

than pole reversal.

[Ripley]

32. HeeHaw!

Polls are great now my man...isn't Kerry ahead in them all?

What do you mean?

[Renew Deal]

37. BBV

[MR. ELECTABLE]

19. Yeah I'll be sure to worry about that happening in 2000 YEARS!!!

RTFA-- scientists that discovered the decline in the magnetic field estimate that the reversal, if it is going to happen at all, will occur in about 2 millenia. Not really a concern considering we only have about 30 years worth of fossil fuels before the entire population goes all Mad Max on each other.

[Guaranteed]

23. Hey....your great great great great great

great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandkids are YOUR responsibility.

You better get down there into the core of the Earth and reverse the flow of all that iron!

How can you live with yourself? :P

[tridim]

42. I've seen theories

that say the actual flip can happen in a very short period of time, like a few weeks. It's probably not something to stress about though.

[Ripley]

43. So have I...

And I'm not stressing. Just curious. But it seems like my thread has been bullied over by some guys, like subjects are "owned" or something.

[bearfartinthewoods]

64. not just theories...fossil evidence.

Definitely indicate the shift happened within a decade and likely less than that.

[freedomonk]

27. well

if this is a continuous process that goes over for hundreds of thousands of years, there will be eventually a middle point where the distribution of magnetic field is equal and we will have no magnets, period. right?

[freedomonk]

36. wait

i took physics II in college about a year ago and i don't remember a single thing about it since i cheated like a motherfucker to get a decent grade...

[John_H]

38. Here's another bullshit-thread kick, but I'm too busy thinking about

new ways to get Chimp out of the whitehouse to worry about junk science.

[Ripley]

39. Well, I see there are only certain DUers that can discuss this

issue.

Funny how they always sound the same....

Back to my question...how fast could the flip be? 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 hell of a mess when it flips.

Have a great flip Guys!

[Guaranteed]

44. What do you want us to do?

This is all theory (I'm very skeptical of what passes for "science" these days), and even if it's true, there's nothing we can do about it.

[Ripley]

46. There it is...

You deserve nothing nice since your goal is to attack me.

[Guaranteed]

49. I'm sorry for disrupting

your thread.

What do you want us to do?

[madinmaryland]

41. what the cheney!

:wtf:

[Rex]

47. Hopefully the end of the world as we know it.

I've had my suitcase packed for over 3 weeks now and still no end of the world! Bah!

[Ripley]

52. It will be...

slow.

[Rex]

54. Yeah I know, I'm just pissing off some of the regulars.

I like ice, will we get to hunt mammoths or maybe even dinosaurs?

[Sirveri]

53. There are a couple theories running around.

One is that it will kick off an ice age.
It might affect global climate patterns.
It might have any number of strange effects.
It might do nothing at all.

Whatever it does, I am as ready for it as I can be at moment.

[Ripley]

55. Are you a scientist?

Because your answer sounds scientific.

I agree with your sentiment anyway...

[TomNickell]

66. Is Bush* causing this? /nt

[Desperadoe]

56. I'm no scientist

but the Discovery Science Channel did a show on this awhile back and I sort of watched it. It was on one of my other computers, on the PVR and I was probably doing DU at the time but I did catch enough of it to know that this is no joke.

According to their experts, since almost all electronic and electrical objects depend on some type of magnets and magnetic devices in order to operate, the entire planet would come to a screeching halt. No computers will run, no TV,radio or other communications. Almost all defense operations would be useless except for manually operated systems (can you say guns?).

In other words, technology would have to be reinvented or at least reworked. Should make the fundies happy as hell but the real Republicans are not gonna like this at all.

I wish I could offer more but there should be someone knowledgeable on this board that could give an informed evaluation without all of the sarcasm and juvenile comments. This shit could be a lot more devastating than global warming or terra alerts.

[Swamp Rat]

60. No TV??? Then I hope it happens!

I doubt most people could live without this mechanized society, especially the fundies. After all, X-tianity NEEDS electricity to function: Televangelists and their bank accounts, neon crosses, on-line bibles... no, the fundies couldn't take one day without electricity.

Actually, it might be kinda funny watching the fundies strip off their undies in public waiting for the "Rapture."

[jab105]

57. I teach earth and space science...

we have had many pole reversals, which was found in the magnetic material found in rocks...as magma flows out of the earth, the magnetic material points towards the pole, and then it hardens in place...and when the poles change, the direction the magnetic material changes as well...this was the major evidence of sea-floor spreading/continental drift...

[Ripley]

58. I like this...

it's for you....

[slaveplanet]

62. Maybe you can settle an argument

I have with a friend?

Will my terlet swirl in the opposite direction after the Pole shift?

[Lorien]

59. Here's some information from the Geological society:

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/template.cfm?name=Polarity

I remember seeing a program back in the '80s about a group of scientists that were trying to warn the world of a polar reversal that would occur on May 5th, 2005 (the date of some extremely unusual lineup in our solar system). They predicted all sort of catastrophies due to this event, but I don't remember many specifics except for the date: 5-5-05.

Personally, I think global warming and biodyversity loss is a far more serious issue than terrorism for the human race. Sadly, none of the candidates seem to think either are worth a mention, let alone a plan. :-(

[Swamp Rat]

61. "When North Becomes South: New Clues to Earth's Magnetic Flip-Flops"

By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 01:00 pm ET
07 April 2004

Next time Earth's magnetic field flips, compass needles will point South instead of North. But scientists can't say when it will occur, and until now they've disagreed on how long the transitions take.

A new study pins down how long it took for the last four reversals to play out. It also finds that the dramatic turnarounds occur more quickly nearer the equator than at higher latitudes closer to the poles.

That means folks living during the next reversal -- which some scientists speculate might be underway -- will see compasses change and behave differently in different locations, study leader Brad Clement, of Florida International University, told SPACE.com.

(snip)

In the past 15 million years, there have been four reversals every 1 million years, or about one shift each 250,000 years, Clement explained. The last one, however, was 790,000 years ago. That might suggest we're overdue for a big change. Not necessarily so, Clement says. The flips are not periodic, meaning they don't adhere to a schedule of even intervals.

(snip)

more...

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/earth_poles_040407.html

[DrWeird]

63. Yes, I'm a scientist.

Pole reversal isn't a problem. It's chemtrails we have to watch out for.

[rman]

68. earth has had many magnetic pole reversals, it's a long term process

the actual reversal is a slow process that takes thousands of years.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa032299.htm

[Ripley]

69. 170 times this has happened?

The earth's magnetic field has reversed approximately 170 times over the last 100 million years. The intensity of the magnetic field has been decreasing over time since it has been measured and some scientists expect that at the current rate of decline, there may be another magnetic reversal in approximately 2000 years. That's a good enough time to replace all of our compasses :)

Keep in mind that quote above says "some scientists" and "in approximately 2000 years" which amounts to "they don't have a clue when."

I think your compass will be the least of your worries when it happens.

[rman]

75. so you'd rather trust Drudge?

got any reputable sources for your claims?

if you want something big to worry about, worry about peak oil; it'll be here within 10 years.

[Ripley]

76. If you'd read a little further...

I didn't even read the Drudge thread...but now that I've read some of it he is quoting the NYT.

If you'd bother to read the entire thread there are numerous links to where this information comes from...the science show NOVA I hear recently ran the story...

Why is it that when someone brings up a larger than life science story, I'm supposed to "ignore" it because peak oil, or death in the Sudan, or some other story is bigger?

Can't you think about more than one subject at a time?

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Part of what went down with Mars-

Small Planet, Farther from the sun. Being smaller, Less atmosphere to retain the heat it received. In addition, it doesn't have the kind of active magnetic field that Earth does, but that probably has to do more with the internal composition of the planet's core than with pole reversals. The bottom line is, the Earth's poles have reversed countless times in the past, and they tend to flip every once in a while, and it's bound to happen again sooner or later. At which point, yeah, things will probably get screwed up, sure: your compass will point south from now on, at the very least- but it doesn't mean the magnetic field will disappear for good. And it certainly doesn't mean the planet is going to freeze and turn into Mars.

I wouldn't get my science "facts" from Drudge-- My experience is that right wing kooks tend to have a, uh, tenuous grasp of science, at best.

[Ripley]

73. I didn't read the Drudge thread...

I didn't even see it until after I posted this one. In fact, I don't think I have ever read Drudge! I hear he gets bucks if you click on his site and wasn't he the one to start the smear on Clinton and tried part deux with Kerry re: intern?

The Mars part of this came from a Harvard(?) scientist I saw on Discovery channel.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Yeah, Drudge is A Class-A Slimeball.

Didn't mean to impugn your sources. It might make sense that the lack of a strong, coherent magnetic field might be part of why life couldn't take hold on mars, or have some impact on the climate there, but I'm not sure if polar reversals would have that much to do with that. Seems to me that the polar reversals are a natural function of having a strong magnetic field, it just "flips" every once in a while. Either way, it's happened enough times in the past that it's probably not a cause for too much concern- I mean, it might screw us (human technological civilization) up pretty bad, but it's not going to turn the Earth into Mars. What scares me more than the poles reversing is the fact that they think the magnetic field gets significantly weaker prior to a flip-- which means that, during the peak years of solar activity, if we get hit with a solar flare, that's a pretty bad day.

Of course, I may not know what the hell I'm talking about. It's always a distinct possibility. Given the choice between me and the guy on the discovery channel, you're probably better off with the guy on the discovery channel.

[truthspeaker]

71. You'll have to get used to reading your compass upside down.

[LeftHander]

74. Buy those aussie world maps now....

Before the rush...

We will be down under....and wisconsin will become the deep south....

:::::shudder::::::

[MadHound]

77. Issac Asimov explored this issue years ago in one of his books

And had a pretty good write up on it. He contended that while there was a build up period of many years, once the tipping point came, it would go very very quickly. All of our electronics would be useless due to ions' polarity being reversed. He compared it to an atmospheric nuclear blast, except the electrical outage would last years rather than day. A real bummer if you're in a plane or car at the time.

He also stated that these have been occuring periodically, about once every 75,000 years. There were some random mutations, birds and other migratory species had their internal compasses messed up, but eventually things adjusted back to normal.

It would be catastrophic for humans, due to our electrical dependence. We would immediately be thrust back into the 19th century, and few of us would be equipped or have the knowledge to survive. It would surely cut our population in half, if not greater. Funny thing is, it would be those who currently live in developing countries who would have the better chance of survival. Since these people already live and function without electricity, this type of event would have little impact. It is those in the West, who have lost the skills to survive without electricity that would perish in the greatest numbers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. There's some fundamentally wrong science in your post

that I can't believe came from Asimov.

"All of our electronics would be useless due to ions' polarity being reversed."

No. Electrical charge will not change. Magnets will also retain their magnetism, and present polarity. Compasses will become unreliable (there are, of course, several regions in the world where this is already the case, due to the magnetism of the local rocks, or their location close to the current magnetic poles, where it's very difficult to use a normal magnetic compass to define 'north').

There are theories that the effects of solar winds will become greater, and this might produce more of the effects we occasionally see during solar storms on satellites. But this is not going to be an 'aeroplanes fall out of the sky' moment. Show me one scientist that says it will be that sudden - and don't just rely on your hazy memory of an Asimov book.

There might be increased radiation from space. But the magnetic poles have swapped many times before, without causing mass extinctions, so the effect likely isn't that great. Since it's a gradual process (taking years, not minutes), if electtronics on the ground do become more vulnerable, then there will be time to shield them, as those that get sent into space can be shielded.

[MadHound]

83. Sorry friend, but I cannot remember the Asimov booktitle

And I can't run off to the library right now to find it. It was one of his science books for the layman, I read it about ten years ago. I do specifically remember him speaking about how it would not only reverse the polarity of the poles, but also the polarity of ions in our atmosphere, thus causing electricity to fail much the same way, and in much the same way as an atmospheric burst of a nuclear bomb(which does cause electrical systems to fail in the effected area).

He also said that this was possibly due to the reversal of flow direction of the Earth's liquid core, and that while it takes some time for the liquid core to slow down and reverse directions, once this is done, the polarity switch is quick. He stated micro-fossil evidence among other things to back himself up.

I'm sure if you perused a list of Asimov's published works, you can find this on your own. I'm not going to go slogging through a bunch of books just to satisfy you. I know what I read, and I told you who wrote it. You can go do your own heavy lifting.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. No, that would be *your* heavy lifting

If you're going to claim Asimov as your source, you've got to do better than your ten year old memory.

Explain the reversal of the 'polarity of ions in the atmosphere'. If your explanation is any good, that may actually indicate that you understand some basic science. At present, your invocation of this phrase to 'cause electricity' to fail looks like a vaguw memory of 30 year old science lessons, topped up by occasional science fiction movies.

Micro-fossil evidence does not show anything on the timescale of days, let alone hours or minutes. "Quick" in geological terms means in decades, not millenia or longer.

For my 'heavy lifting', I'll give you a reference to NASA: http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/q279.html

"This is most curious because the field reversal ( North magnetic pole shifting to antarctica and the South magnetic pole shifting to the arctic region in the Northern Hemisphere) one might expect the field to go to zero strength for a century or so. This would let cosmic rays freely penetrate to the Earth's surface and cause mutations. This seems not to have had much effect in the past, so we probably don't really know what is going on during these field reversals.
...
Magnetic field wandering would let the aurora borealis occur at any latitude, but other than that there would be no noticeable effects other than changes in the amount of cosmic rays that penetrate to the ground. Even this effect is minimal because we can visit the Arctic and Antarctic and only receive a slight increase in cosmic rays. So long as the strength of the field remains high during this field wandering event, the effects should be pretty benign."

Electronics do not stop working in Antarctica.

[TXlib]

79. Not much would happen, other than to compasses.

[shanti]

81. perhaps this is why

they have been building all these bunkers...maybe "they" know something about this that they aren't telling us. could you imagine the panic?

[Baclava]

88. Here's what I do...

If I want to learn about a subject....Google it!

Magnetic pole reversal:

http://www.geolab.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/reversals_e.shtml

"Reversals have been documented as far back as 330 million years. "During that time more than 400 reversals have taken place, one roughly every 700,000 years on average. However, the time between reversals is not constant, varying from less than 100,000 years, to tens of millions of years. In recent geological times reversals have been occurring on average once every 200,000 years, but the last reversal occurred 780,000 years ago."

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/29dec_magneticfield.htm

"Reversals take a few thousand years to complete, and during that time--contrary to popular belief--the magnetic field does not vanish. "It just gets more complicated," says Glatzmaier. Magnetic lines of force near Earth's surface become twisted and tangled, and magnetic poles pop up in unaccustomed places. A south magnetic pole might emerge over Africa, for instance, or a north pole over Tahiti. Weird. But it's still a planetary magnetic field, and it still protects us from space radiation and solar storms."



Of course - they could all be wrong and some theorize a complete 'reboot' of the human mind - the brain IS known to contain magnetite - might occur.