Why are all the French dying, it is not that hot?

[VoteClark]

Has anyone been, or lived in France before? I am curious as to how 5-7000 French people could die in just 85-95 degree heat. Most places in the US it is hotter then this, yet we are not dying off in the thousands.

I understand that they are mostly elderly, but still, don't they have cold fresh water, fans, and air-conditioning?

I am at a loss as to how 90 degrees is so much hotter than 105% in the USA.

:kick:
J4Clark

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. The temperatures there were 30 degrees above normal

in a country with virtually no air conditioning and most houses and apartments are built of stone.

I repeat (as I stated last week in another thread in response to you) VIRTUALLY NO AIR CONDITIONING. I don't know where you live, but how would you like temperatures 30 degrees above normal???? It should be in the low 70s at this time of year.

And yes, I have been to France a number of times. Jeez, the heat wave was thawing glaciers in the Alps. How much more proof do you need?

[VoteClark]

8. So it is what they are use to? Not the actual tempature?

Where I am, it is usally about 85, but is now about 100-110. Many people have air-conditioning, but most don't have air-conditioning.

We use fans, and ice, and stay in the shade. It just seems odd that high of a number.

In the middle east it is getting to be about 110-120 degrees. Few if any have air-conditioning. Yet, the elderly are not dying off.

Just curious is all. I am not judging them of anything. It just weird to me that heat could be that devastating when it is under 100 degress most the time.

:kick:
J4Clark

[greatauntoftriplets]

9. How many times do I have to repeat this to you????

The average temperature in Paris at this time of year is 71 degrees. 104 was more than 30 degrees above the normal temp. Few people have air conditioning. Have you been to Paris????? It is a very large city. Many places do not have large trees under which people can sit.

It has only been so devastating with a week above 100 degrees. Eight years ago in Chicago during a big heat wave, nearly 800 people died of it.

[JanMichael]

13. But, der, don't everybody got an AC in ChiTown?!

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

For the inquizitive Clrk person: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/443213in.html

[greatauntoftriplets]

15. No, JM,

they don't. Most of the people who died here were elderly and poor -- not all, but.... It was a sad time.

[alcuno]

18. That's right. They now believe that 700 people died in Chicago

during the heatwave a few years ago. In cities, people with no air-conditioning are often afraid to sleep with the windows open. Fans do nothing when it's 95 in your house.

[VoteClark]

51. France doesn't have air-conditioning? SO WHAT!

It is not a third would country.

How can I survive, and all the old people in my complex, at 110 degrees for 2 months straight, and no airconditioning?

It is normally not that HOT. So why are they not all dying off?

:kick:
J4Clark

[sujan]

62. let me ship you off to Base Camp @ Mt Everest right now

and we'll see how you survive.

Do you need biology lessons?

[MercutioATC]

21. Find me 100 residential buildings in all of Paris that are wired for air

conditioning. We're talking 18th century buildings. The French don't have a lower melting point, they just don't have the same infrastructure we do.

[FlashHarry]

2. I lived there for two years.

Most people don't have A/C. Most people have never experienced temps above 85, let alone 100. It's a serious deal, believe me. The WP editorial page made fun of them recently, telling them 'if they can't stand the heat...' Considering 2,000 more people have died in France than on 9/11, I don't really know if it's all that funny.

And, as usual, it's mostly the elderly, infirm and poor that are dying--the usual 'expendables,' according to the GOP. They die here, too. We just don't give a shit.

[markses]

7. The french equivalent of the Surgeon General resigned today

in the wake of the scandal.

And it is a scandal. In addition to the WELL-ABOVE AVERAGE temperatures (the initial post in this thread is absolutely stupid), serious questions have been raised about the structure of care for elderly French. It turns out that France has nothing like the extensive home health care system we find in the US, which could have prevented some of these deaths.

The overall system there will have to be reviewed and reformed, that's clear enough.

However, it has nothing to do with "not having air conditioning or cold drinks" as the stupid, imbecilic, and utterly disgraceful first post in this thread implies. Rather, it is a systemic problem with the health care system that merely manifested itself in these UNUSUALLY HIGH TEMPERATURES.

And i too have been to France on numerous occasions. Matter of fact, I was born there.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[markses]

26. First of all

there is access to cold water in France. That you don't get it automatically in a restaurant doesn't mean people don't have ice in their refrigerators, and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't use it. They do.

That said, the major advantage of cold water (water coming out of the tap is sufficiently cold) is that it absorbs into the body more quickly than warm or lukewarm water. However, water that is not ice cold will usually absorb quickly enough to stem dehydration, if one is drinking it regularly. For heat exhaustion, the water should be fairly cold for quicker absorbtion. For heat stroke, many health experts advise AGAINST cold water since it could lead to thermal shock. Of course, none of this is particularly important to say, since the French have plenty of access to cold water, and ice - the fact that it is not customary in restaurants does not mean that it is unavailable. The problem lies not in the cold water (a perspective only a braindead tourist could bring to the situation), but in the lack of proper monitoring and education of vulnerable populations. of course, this isn't funny enough for VoteClark, since it doesn't play into the despicable American stereotype, so we're back to the "warm" Evian, silly Frogs!

Your post is sickening, and I only hope that you are neither as ignorant nor as disgusting as the post makes you out to be.

[Dover]

47. I heard that part of the problem was that August is vacation month for

many in France, Italy, etc. and so there were skeleton staffs in the homes for the elderly, and fewer than usual doctors on hand.

It's just a combination of a lot of factors...and very sad. These elderly are really helpless and vulnerable to the effects of even minimal changes in conditions. This was a shock to their systems...particularly if they had breathing problems.

[StopThief]

65. OK, I gotta ask.

Is there a hidden meaning behind the fact that you used a picture of the three stooges with Curly Joe as opposed to Curly (clearly the best) or Shemp (a distant second)?

O8)

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. They count poor people in France

People without AC die in the US too, there is just not a high level of attention or concern about it.

[BurtWorm]

4. Are you really interested in the answer, VoteClark?

Do you really expect to get it here in DU? Maybe you should try asking someone at the French embassy.

[VoteClark]

11. U R Probably right if I get stupid responses like cold water doesn't help

[BurtWorm]

14. Stupid questions sometimes get stupid answers

Beggars can't be choosers. ;)

[markses]

41. Since you never got that response

We're left with only your stupid first post.

[mandyky]

5. It takes 2 to 4 weeks to acclimatize to extreme heats

that one is not used to.

[JanMichael]

6. No, most don't have AC. They normally don't need it.

Same with most of Europe.

It was 40 degree Celsius (104 degree Fahrenheit) so the indoors temps for the poor and elderly were higher.

Do you think they're making it up?

[VoteClark]

12. No, they are dead, just curious as to why 100 degress did it, I don't

think that is that hot. It should have been easy to prevent.

:kick:
J4Clark

[JanMichael]

16. What's your point? The French suck or something?

Read this:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/443213in.html

Notice the use of Heat Index? That's what does it.

The French heat was around 104-107, Chicago? 107 with heat index of over 120 degrees.

What's so difficult about this?

[greatauntoftriplets]

27. The really bad thing about July 13, 1995 from my perspective, JanMichael

The AC in the building where I worked was broken. But we had to work a full day. I wore shorts and brought a fan from home. It was hell. I was quite unproductive.

[NYC]

24. Perhaps you live in a place with low humidity

where sweat cools by evaporation.

In NYC, 100 degrees with 90% humidity makes you want to die.

Also, you mentioned that people in the middle east aren't dying without the air conditioning. A lot of people in Baghdad are accustomed to having air conditioning. How do we know old people aren't dying of the heat there? I've been wondering about that. Is it happening, and not being reported?

Also, the Iraqis mentioned sleeping in the garden, etc. We don't have gardens to sleep in.

[never cry wolf]

34. in addition their

energy costs are triple ours. i lived there for 9 months. a shower at the train station cost 3 francs then, 8 if you wanted hot water. there is a reason they take the metro, walk and ride bikes as well as don't use or feel the need for AC or much ice.

[DBoon]

17. Think of cold in a place usually not cold

Why does 1 inch of snow bring Portland Oregon to a screeching halt? I mean this is nothing compared to Buffalo NY?

You design your cities and towns around what is average. Anything greatly above or below average causes problems.

Most houses in Los Angeles are made of stucco. A good solid cold winter and they would crumble. People would freeze to death - no real insulation and inadequate heating. Someone from Minneapolis would just wonder what the big deal was.

[greatauntoftriplets]

19. May I suggest that you visit France one of these days???

And then comment.

[Lars39]

20. Dupe.

This was discussed already.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=193711&mesg_id=193711

[TruthIsAll]

22. I find your threads the most fascinating.....

tripe I have read in a long time...

[Gloria]

23. It's not 80-85...just heard the report on ieAmerica (Malloy) news that

it's been 105 degreees in some areas for several weeks.

Speaking from personal experience...I collapsed the first week of June here in NM...it was getting hot. I was dehydrated and didn't even know it. I had been drinking lots of water, but combined with medication I take, it completely screwed up my electrolytes. I just hit the ground, EMT came and got me into the shade. I was in shock for a few moments.

I'm fairly young (early 50's)...and have air conditioning. The heat just broke here a few days ago... But day after day of near and over 100 degrees, higher humidity than usual (but no rain), it never cooled off over night. It was brutal. I felt sick for weeks. And even those "healthier" than I were feeling awful.

Now, imagine the elderly, without air conditioning, humidity (France isn't dripping with it but it's not real low either) and prolonged heat that their bodies can't adust to...plus, if they're on meds, the potential for all sorts of problems.....

Thats' how people die....heat stroke/dehydration. Brutal.

[salin]

25. And your point is?

That they didn't really die? That something is wrong with the French because that would never happen here?

[MiltonLeBerle]

28. Let's see...

a lot of elderly, even very elderly people living alone, who aren't used to hot weather at all, and may not know how to respond
-shutting the drapes and windows in hopes of making it "shady" is a deadly mistake that lots of elderly people make in the U.S. even.
Add to that that almost nobody has AC- not even window units, let alone something as extravagant as central air in a country where the average august temparature rarely breaks 80.
People are more accustomed to drinking a glass of wine than a glass of cold water.
Add to that it's august, and most of France is "on vacation" so there are fewer people around to check in on elderly relatives and neighbors, and even health services are stretched thin.
This heat is nothing remotely close to normal, and it's like a "perfect storm" of causes.

[hatrack]

29. "Dehydration" "Heat Stroke" "Heat Exhaustion" Ring any bells?

1). Temperatures have been between 25 and 30 F above normal summer temperatures, and have been so for the past two weeks. In France, the record high to date this summer has been 108. In Switzerland, it hit 107. In Germany, it hit 105. In Spain, it hit 112. In Portugal (8/1) it hit 117 F. The Danube is lower than it's been in 100 years, Portugal is burning down (100,000 acres of forest lost to date this year) and German farmers are running out of hay and grain to feed their cattle. Mont Blanc in France has been closed to climbers because the mountain peaks themselves are disintegrating as the glaciers and ice covering the mountain peaks there melt away. No, it's not just a little bit hotter than normal.

2) Most ("most", hell) nearly all northern European cities are totally lacking in air conditioning. Why? It's simple - they almost never need it. Consequently, the brick and stone buildings which make up much of major cities like Paris, Lille, Marseille and Toulon heat up and then stay hot for days and days and days.

3) Living within many of these warm stone buildings are thousands and thousands of old and infirm French men and women. One of the problems with getting older is that your body's thermostat (so to speak) doesn't work as well as it once did. Many old people have trouble sensing that they need to drink more water, or need to move to a cooler place than their 115-120 F (interior temperature) apartments. Many have no families, or their children have been on vacation during the August holidays. Consequently, when dehydration, heat exhaustion or heat stroke (combined with existing ailments) fell them, there's no one on hand to check up on them. One case in Paris involved an elderly man who had been dead in his apartment for ten days (if you can even imagine what that was like) because there was no space in the morgue or hospital receiving room to take his body. Temporary refrigerated tents are taking up some of the slack, but they're still not sure how many died as a result of blazingly hot weather and thoroughly unprepared public health systems.

Clear things up for you, dumbass?

[preciousdove]

30. 5-7000 deaths IS a lot of deaths just from heat.

I don't think that the French are ignorant of precaustions or stupid so I would wonder if there was a large underlying health problem such as borreliosis, cousin of relapsing fever. Very complicated chronic but not acute. Heat can help cure this disease but if you are not monitored for complications it is easy to go into seisures, organ failure etc. Knocks about 20 years off peoples lives. Ran into a bunch of folks looking for treatment options online.

[markses]

31. The French Surgeon General has resigned

French news is all about the death toll, and blames it on poor monitoring and education of vulnerable populations. This seems to be accurate.

[Yentatelaventa]

32. I thought France was progressive and took care of their people

How could they let this happen? Where was the safety net?

[markses]

33. Who told you that?

There have been systemic problems with the monitoring and proper care of the elderly in France (as in many places in the US) for decades.

Unless you are just arguing against a preconception in order to score other points?

[Yentatelaventa]

35. Since when is asking a question an argument?

The only points I'm looking for are moot.

[markses]

38. Rhetorical questions are arguments, since ancient times

I'm wondering whether you were asking rhetorical questions.

[Paschall]

58. I don't know if the French right wing...

...which established the country's public health care system after WWII would accept the label "progressive," but, yes, the system generally does take very good care of people. If you look at the latest UN Population's Fund comparative study on health care systems worldwide, France ranks first. Which is why we have so many elderly. The French live longer--in part--because they have such excellent health care.

[Paschall]

36. I've posted extensively about this

1) The French have a higher life expectancy than Americans. (There are MORE older people here--yes, I'm in France.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 79.28 years
male: 75.63 years
female: 83.11 years (2003 est.)
16.3% of the population is over 65 years of age

2) The French public health system lacks geriatric specialists. This is a systemic problem that cannot be solved for a few years until these people are trained.

3) Many hospital beds are simply closed during the summer. And health care providers were unavailable because they were on vacation. The government waited far too long before putting the emergency White Plan into action to call these people back to work and make the needed beds available.

4) Many elderly people were alone during the heat wave; their families were on vacation. Half the deaths are estimated to have occurred at home. Bodies are still being discovered as people return from summer holidays.

5) Less than one percent of homes and business in France have air conditioning. As I've mentioned elsewhere, my apartment has a northern exposure and gets no direct sunlight; during the heat wave, the temperature never dropped below 90 degrees inside. How many days do you think you could survive that if you were 85 years old and had kidney or heart problems? Remember, dieuretics increase the risk of dehydration.

6) These weather conditions were absolutely phenomenal. It's not like the temperature hits 104 degrees every year. There are still forest fires burning out of control in some parts of the country. Fields are parched and farmers are already being forced to use their winter forage, which they usually don't do until October. Where crops can be harvested, they are a month ahead of schedule. The grape harvest is already under way, breaking an early harvest record dating from the late 1800s.

7) The government bungled this royally and had no preventive measures in place. As mentioned, the director of the country's health services has already resigned. He probably won't be the last. A warehouse at Rungis--the wholeseale food market outside Paris--is just one of the makeshift locations being used to store bodies, which are still coming in. Specialists fear that many of the elderly survivors of the heat wave have been severly weakened and could succumb to other affections in the weeks ahead.

All that having been said, the alternative answer to your question is we're just cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

[roughsatori]

44. Excellent post, thanks

I hope some of the people who posted on this thread return to read it. I might just be tired but I am seeing a rise in Freeper sympathizers tonight.

[markses]

37. Let's also remember

That the French ran their imperialist possessions in such frigid climes as Southeast Asia, Algeria, Equatorial Africa (care to spend a summer evening in the Cote d'Ivoire?), the Caribbean, and equatorial South America. It is not that they are either incapable or inexperienced when it comes to heat. However, the recent heat in France itself is a severe aberration, and has exposed major problems with the French healthcare apparatus, especially as it deals with the elderly.

[TheWatcher]

42. Why Oh Why....

Are you guys still taking this guys bait.....

Unbelieveable.

[markses]

45. If the mods don't remove this

Then it should at least be strenously met.

[TheWatcher]

56. Markses my comment wasn't directed at you

I apologize if you thought that....It was directed at the person who started the thread.....

It appeared to me that this thread was started for no other intention than to disrupt, much like the other threads he has started recently....I'm sorry if I offended you, but this guy is getting so obvious it makes me wonder why people are feeding him....

[meisje]

39. too much wine

not enough water

[BrotherBuzz]

46. Especially the red wine

And I guess I'm a dumbass for thinking that the cause for all the deaths was simply the French Paradox biting the French in the ass. I thought that, maybe, the French were so wrapped up in that Red wine/Heart/cholesterol thing that they didn't see the temperature sneak up on them. Everyone in my region knows that drinking red wine in hot weather will kill you, and I figured that the reason for all those French deaths was that they just didn't know better! I live in a hot climate (albeit dry) without air conditioning, but I am used to it and regularly expect triple digit temperatures, and have observed the real wine afficionados in my area will only drink white wine till the sun (and temperature) goes down, then switch to the BIG Red. The rest of us, including the winemakers, drink beer instead. We have a saying in California that sums it up pretty well - "It takes a lot of beer to make wine". Water is good, too, especially if you want to make good wine!

[Paschall]

60. Hint: the French Paradox is an American invention

The French don't drink red wine for their cholesterol, they drink it for the pleasure. Obsessions with weight and cholesterol are American problems, which is understandable since affordable health care is so hard to find in the US.

[VermontDem2004]

40. I was wondering that myself

during the summer in Phoenix, average temperatures were at 115 degrees.

[JanMichael]

43. Read the thread. There are a dozen posts explaining this.

Maybe two dozen by the time I type this...

[greatauntoftriplets]

67. Temperatures were 30 degrees ABOVE the normal.

What would 145 degrees feel like in Phoenix?

[NickB79]

48. Stone houses are really that bad in the heat?

I've seen this mentioned several times, and I just find it odd because our old farmhouse is made of brick, and very rarely gets hot during the summer. The brick construction really seems to insulate well against the heat as long as the windows are shut. For example, yesterday it was 90F+ outside when we were working around the farm, but the thermostat said ~75 inside the house, and we have no A/C. Open up the basement door, and it really cools it down (65F in the basement, almost cold after being in 90F heat).

Are the stone/brick houses in France constructed differently, or of a different material that is absorbs heat more rapidly? I'm not trying to troll, its an honest question. Thanks.

[Paschall]

57. It sounds like your farmhouse must be on the ground

It's kind of tough opening the basement door from a fourth floor apartment. How many of the 12 million people in the Greater Paris region do you suppose have homes with a basement door?

[abbyhoffman]

49. 5k to 7k

in France have not died maybe a 150 but no way 5k! show me the bodies

[NYC]

50. Why do you say only 150 people died?

?

[WonderTwins]

52. Umm

Sure, the French government is going to inflate the number of dead in an effort to make itself look even worse. That makes a whole lot of sense.

[Paschall]

61. No time to show you the bodies

But visit any French cemetery this week and you'll see back to back funerals. Next week, too, for that matter. It's going to take at least that long to get all the victims buried.

[dudeness]

53. elderly people die here in australia too

every summer...grown up here all their lives ..but the extreme temperatures knock them off..

[VoteClark]

54. Why did the French leave their 100 year-old grandma alone in the heat?

That sounds kind of mean to me. Not saying that they all abandoned their loved ones. But it sounds like a scapegoat tactic to blame the deaths of the elderly on the Government when they were in the hands of relatives.

My grandma is getting up there. We don't leave her alone for days and days. Nor would we blame the government if she died.

Granted, we don't watch her every second, and could face problems for hours if she could not get to a phone. But we don't leave our elderly family members alone and go on vactaion for weeks without someone to watch her.

I remember about a month ago, a man in a nearby housing complex was dead for 3 weeks before the landlord discovered the body.

I find that sad that the family doesn't call or check in on them for 3 weeks straight.

I am not saying that it is always the families fault. But the welfare of your family members are your responsible. I find this sad that this was allowed to happen.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Paschall]

59. Okay, VoteClark, because you're being so obdurate...

...I'll humor you.

When the majority of the French left for vacation, the heat wave had not yet hit. So no one was leaving Granny in the heat. It's usual in France for working folks to take their vacations in July or August. Retirees (like Granny) usually vacation in October, and when she does, she leaves her children all alone to take care of the grandchildren, while she whoops it up in Beijing or Havana or Tunis.

Granny has a public health system to deal with her health problems. She doesn't have to rely on her family. She may be 100, but she still does her own shopping and cooks her own meals. What's wrong with American 100-year-olds that they can't get off their asses and look after themselves?

BTW, the main official French statistics gatherer (INSEE), predicts the country will have over 150,000 people over the age of 100 by 2050, for a population of around 60-65 million. The figure has increased by a factor of 750 since the beginning of the 20th century.

[John_H]

55. The temp. in france is dropping faster than teeth from a freeper's mouth

so you won't have to worry about it anymore, dude.

[oasis]

63. God is punishing France for not backing the Chimp's invasion of Iraq

That'll teach those yellow bastids.

[Must_B_Free]

64. hehe, "bastids"

heh

[Kellanved]

66. Not only the French - somehow the media messes it up

Italy's old suffer in heat, deaths up 20 percent

[lazarus]

68. we don't need this

I'm locking. Sorry, folks.