WAKE UP and Kiss Democracy -- AND the 2004 election -- goodbye

[Eloriel]

I keep reading threads where the California Recall is not taken seriously, OR worst of all, somehow seen as having some benefits.

People, it's DEADLY serious and the folks of California have GOT to find a way to not let Arnold or any other Repug get elected. And the rest of us have to help in whatever way we can.

Here's why -- and I've posted this to a bunch of threads and I'm getting tired of repeating myself:

If Arnold (or probably any other Repug) wins, we WILL lose California in 2004. That's a given. There's no doubt about it.

In fact, they were already preparing "the back story" for it before Arnold even announced. Just a few days before his announcement there was an article in the WP, I believe, to the effect that Bush/CHeney think they can take CA and NYC, that they're ripe for the picking. We ALL know that with free and fair elections, that would be a lie since these two are such heavily Dem (blue) states. But where we have computerized voting machines, we don't have free and fair elections any more and there's still a rush going on to get computerized voting machines in place.

So they're getting ready for another round of vote fraud and that article and others like it are just the setup so it won't seem so outlandish. They stole FL, they stole GA in 2002 (and other races elsewhere), and with Repug governors they sure as hell CAN steal CA and NY.

Here's why they want Arnold: he knows NOTHING but he's got name recognition and adulation as a star out to yang-yang. They won't even let him talk anymore, now that it's clear he can't discuss the issues at all.

Hell, Rove probably promised him that he'd give him all the help he needs, so he'd be a star in office. Maybe lured him with that off-the-wall Constitutional Amendment by Mitch McConnell which would eradicate the Constitutional provision you have to be a born native of the US to run for President.

All they have to do is this:

1. Get Arnold in

2. Send Bush to CA a bunch of times for some glitzy photo-op stuff for Arnold like Bush does that makes people believe he's doing something

3. Let Bush do some wonderful things that make Californians happy and makes it look really good for Arnold too

4. Get polls showing increasing Bush support (yes, polls are skewed these days, esp. if you get the right pollster who will call the right people and ask the right questions). That alone will make some fools who aren't paying enough attention think about actually voting for "a winner and popular guy like Bush" in 2004.

5. Steal the election. If the voting machines are all or even mostly computerized, let me tell you this: it's a done deal. No contest.

AND, with this ballot nightmare for non-computerized voting areas, it's going to be such a nightmare it will make Florida look like a walk in the park. People will be clamoring for those electronic touch-screens.

Here's how it's going to work: Each county has a different ballot. The names aren't listed alphabetically, but rather in the order the letters were randomly pulled in the lottery they had a week or so ago. In one county Z may be the first letter listed on the ballot, followed by R, B, F, A, etc. In another county, the order is R, W, C, K, etc. IT'S A NIGHTMARE. I can't think of any way to make it more confusing, more anti-voter and anti-democracy other than printing the ballots in invisible ink. And you can bet whoever came up with this scheme is a Repug, or perhaps a "Theresa LePore Democrat."

That means if I go into the poll knowing who I want to vote for, I'll have to read through all or most of 6 ballots to even find my candidate. A lot of jurisdictions still use punchcards. With 150 names on the ballot, even a speed reader will take a long time to vote for their candidate.

If there's any turnout at all -- which is, of course, exactly what we want -- it will take hours and hours for a handful of people to vote. How long will it take to read through 150 names on 6 punchcards? THOS ALONE NEEDS TO BE CHALLENGED IN COURT.

After this nightmare, people will be BEGGING for computerized voting, and election officials will be scrambling to get them.

WAKE UP, PEOPLE. We've got to get busy on this recall garbage and defeat it. You don't have much time. Le Taz Hot and Capn Sunshine are actively working on it. Contact them and see if you can help them out. Here's one email list on the subject (not very active):

[e-mail]


C'mon folks, they're stealing our democracy right out from under us. Let's get busy on the Recall and the voting machines issue and NOT let up. We WILL lose CA if Arnold gets in AND/OR we don't fix the voting machine problem. Mark my words. I've never been surer of ANYthing.

Eloriel

[OneBlueSky]

1. funny you should mention it . . . I just posted this on another thread . .

anyone who thinks that GWB is toast in 2004 has their own head in the sand, if not up their ass . . . as things stand right now, he's going to sweep the election, no matter who the Dem candidate is, and this whole recall nonsense is part of his plan to take California and New York as part of that sweep . . . given that the BFEE has shown that they will do ANYTHING to get their way (start wars, LIHOP, rig elections, etc.), and given that the media is in their pocket, and given that the average joe and jane don't know what the hell's going on anyhow, watch for a Bush landslide in 04 . . . jmho, but that's sure how it's shaping up in my view . . .

[brokensymmetry]

2. I'm awake!

What a nightmare. :kick:

[ElementaryPenguin]

3. Bingo, E! This Rovian maneuver IS another coup attempt, and a big step

Towards stealing the presidential election for ChimpCo!! We are indeed in HUGE trouble if we allow this to transpire!! At the very least (since this recall movement started just SIX WEEKS after the election), another recall movement should be started the moment Ah-nulled is "elected"!!!!!!

[Wednesdays]

4. Links to other "Fight the Recall" threads.

Both of these are great resources for info and things to do to beat the recall.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=161462

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=161462

[DEMActivist]

5. It just got WORSE - Diebold goes WIRELESS!

Three touch-screen vendors, including Diebold, are vying for a statewide contract. Diebold had offered to start building voting terminals in Ohio if it alone wins the contract. But Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell has said he won't select just one vendor.

Blackwell will make his final selections today. He had delayed the decision from Aug. 1 to give a recently appointed advisory team more time to investigate, LoParo said.

``The Johns Hopkins study raises questions that need answers, not just from Diebold, but from all electronic voting vendors,'' he said.

snip....

Diebold's newest voting machine, the AccuVote-TSX, lets poll workers send the same information wirelessly.

(And then ADMIT it can be hacked!!!)

But even if that burst of election data were intercepted, Radke said, all the hacker would get are unofficial results. An official tally isn't decided until days later, when local election officials compare the votes counted in each machine's memory card with other paper and electronic records.

``We haven't had any problems,'' he said.

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/6538203.htm

[Eloriel]

10. At this point I'm looking for

just ONE MORE day before I die where I don't end up saying, "Unbelievable" over yet another outrage or insanity.

Eloriel

[diamondsoul]

69. OH MY GOD!

Are you f*ckin' kidding me?!

Folks I do NOT accept this, there HAS to be something we can do to put a stop to it. Somebody tell me something here!

[nedlogg]

6. We're screwed!

n/t

[nolabels]

90. That was rather contrite

Be truthful now, was this really in response to poster #69 and you’re just clairvoyant :bounce:

[barbaraann]

7. And it looks to me like Bill Clinton is helping the process along.

He should be telling Gray Davis that something really radical needs to be done to save democracy. The only thing I can see that can work is for Davis to spill the beans about the Bush administration and then resign. I do believe that McClintock and Simon will be forced to drop out and that no one will have a chance against Arnold.

Yesterday I asked my STAUNCHLY DEMOCRATIC sister in California how she was going to vote and here is what she said. She is going to vote FOR the recall and for either Arnold or Arianna. (Yes, I told her that made no sense but Gray Davis has turned people against the Dems to an unbelievable extent.) I tried to explain to her that a vote for Arnold was a vote for a Bush dictatorship and I think I got through but we won't be able to get through to enough people to make a difference.

[Clete]

45. Not only that look at this.

Apparently DINO Rob Lowe will help personal friend Arnold.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-me-lowe15aug15,1,4872652.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[Classical_Liberal]

100. This isn't about the Democrats it is about the New Dems

. That is why Davis won't quit, and would rather see a repuke in office than another Dem. Davis supports thet deregulation of California power or he would have reregulated.

[JCMach1]

8. America is gone...

It may be 25 years or more before anything resembling it returns (if ever).

Yes, if 'we' actually wake up and fight against Ahhhnull we the people can defeat him easily. Meanwhile BUCHco hits us in a dozen other places. That's their strategy. While we focus on the recall they start cutting down our national forests. It's multiple attacks and we can only seem to get things together to focus on one thing at a time.

I am NOT hopeful today Eloriel... and I have a sick feeling that CA will elect Ahhhnull.

[Mari333]

9. agreed.

[prolesunited]

16. That's been their strategy all along, hasn't it?

It's like that game "Wacamole" -- all those head popping up simultaneously that you can't keep up. They just throw it all out there -- international treaties, environmental protections, civil liberties, bankrupting government, privatization, militarization -- to see what sticks.

There's so many attacks from so many directions that either your head spins off or you get so tired that you crumple in defeat. I imagine them rubbing their hands with glee as they watch what slips through the cracks.

[JCMach1]

22. Exactly-- 'Weapons of Mass Distraction'

Even the activists (or the media) can't focus...

Rove has always been a master of

'Change the story, change the lead'

[dfitzsim]

11. Why does computer ballot = unfair election?

Although I agree that it would be horrible for a repug to gain the governorship in California, I utterly fail to see the connection between computer voter machines and unfair elections.

Every computer ballot I've ever used was perfectly clear. There was never any doubt about who I was voting for. Vastly superior to punch cards and check boxes.

Illuminate me please.

[ibegurpard]

14. It's not a question of ease of use for the end-user.

It's a question of security of the system...as it stands, the potential for MASSIVE voter fraud is very real.
Check out the following site:
www.blackboxvoting.com

[SharonAnn]

17. You may think your vote was recorded the way you intended

but programming can actually cause it to be applied to the internal count for some other candidate. You would never know.

Those of us who are programmers know how it could be done and that's why we're so concerned.

[dfitzsim]

23. I, too, am a programmer.

It still does not follow that touch screen voting equals voter fraud. It can be made secure. It can be made tamper proof. It can be made to include a paper trail (one system I used in Virgina produced a scan tron form which was inserted into a reader for tabulation).

Everyday, very sensitive information is handled by computers. To think that a vote can't be handle in a secure fashion is false. Now, whether it WILL be handled in a secure fashion is another question.

[DEMActivist]

24. dfitzsim, for the most up to date findings....

go here: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

The discussions about security problems with these machines is there. This is the activism arm of the Black Box Voting site.

[greekspeak]

26. Its not the computers that have us worried

its how the people who will MANIPULATE the computers that have us worried.

[Karenina]

38. Get with the program

to date: IT IS NOT SECURE. IT IS NOT TAMPER-PROOF. THIS DOES NOT DEPEND ON WHAT THE MEANING OF IS IS.

[stickdog]

58. If you are really a programmer, you know that without a user verified

paper trail, computerized voting machines can't possibly be made foolproof.

[JCMach1]

18. There are immense security problems with the software

and THERE IS NO PAPERTRAIL for most systems.

A recount would just simply recount manipulated data if the system had been breached.

I refer you to: http://www.blackboxvoting.com/ for the details.

[Clete]

32. After you vote is there another source to double check your

vote in case of questionable results? If not, prepare to enter the new Reich. Any accounting system without a double entry in a separate ledger to check against is open to fraud.

[catzies]

12. Your second point coming true as we speak.

Bush is in my area RIGHT NOW between fundraisers yakking up "policies" that make things worse.

[fishnfla]

13. Waking up, puckering up

no more yuking it up. They have to have their boy in their to help steal the state, thats the program they used in TX and FL. I see where they brought in another old Bush croney, George Schultz.

[WilliamPitt]

15. While I agree 100% that the recall is dangerous bullshit

I am not so sure that Ahhhnold in the office = Bush victory in 2004. The Bushies aren't too happy with this candidacy for a variety of reasons...and California is still very very Democratic no matter who is Governor. Granted, the DRE's add a scary wrinkle, but overall I'm not too sure of the premise here.

That having been said, this whole thing is disgusting and an affront to democracy.

[JCMach1]

20. I agree with Mayor Brown-- a Republican victory

Should equal and IMMEDIATE recall effort on the Dems. part.

Remember, the Repugs pulled the trigger first.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. Didn't California have a repuke governor a while back?

His name was Wilson I think. The next presidential election, did California go Dem or rep?

[Clete]

33. Not only that, the failed Republican Governor, Pete Wilson,

is Arnold's spokeperson in his campaign. Also the energy mess that Davis inherited was done on Wilson's watch. Connect the dots.

[WilliamPitt]

36. It was Wilson, and it went very Dem n/t

[Room101]

40. Agree California will not vote Bush, remember history people.

I think I'm right... Bill clinton won California twice when we had a Republican Gov. Pete Wilson. Every time Bush comes to Cal he is met with protests. I have been seeing alot of anti-bush bumper stickers.
I live in SF bay area though.

[LearnedHand]

123. They aren't saying CA will VOTE Bush...

..., they're saying CA will be HANDED TO Bush* by an illegal, rigged election.

BTW, did we decide that the BFEE first successfully tested the rigged voting machines in the TX governor's race against Ann Richardson?

[AlinPA]

41. We can beat Bush. He looks worse every day.

His "speeches" are pathetic. His record is worse. What's going right for the dirty bastard? He can be beaten, lets keep working on the ground to make it happen.

[Kazak]

121. I agree with this...

:nuke:

[MisterP]

46. * might not win CA, but it could serve as a "showcase":

"when we're in charge, look at the glories!"

[Eloriel]

49. What makes you think the Bushies aren't happy?

Oh -- you mean CA Republicans, incl. voters? Doesn't matter. They'll just vote for Simon or someone while most Californians will vote for the movie star. All it takes is for Arnold to get more votes than anyone else, whether that's 5% or 95% of the vote. Just as long as it's more than anyone else.

Yes, CA is Dem, but apparently you haven't REALLY been paying attn to the voting machine issue. I've just been going over some of the online info while preparing a report for someone and frankly, it'll curl your hair if you REALLY look into it. Just what we know (publicly) already makes any sane person say, Nuh huh. No electronic voting systems for me.

Here's a sampling (these aren't in any particular order, just pulled from some of my links research, and also may include dupes):

Harris Report
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/access-diebold.htm

Hopkins Report: http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf)

Diebold Rebuttal to Hopkins Report: http://www.diebold.com/checksandbalances.pdf

Rubin et. al. - response to Diebold rebuttal: http://avirubin.com/vote/response.html


BALTIMORE CITY PAPER
http://www.citypaper.com/2002-10-30/mobs2.html
http://www.citypaper.com/2002-12-11/feature.html

Dr. Mercuri's site
http://www.notablesoftware.com/evote.html

Lynn Landes - Industry Ownership
http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachineCompanies.htm#DIEBOLD%20ELECTION%20SYSTEMS,%20INC

Landes website: http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachines-TechnicalIssues&Standards.htm

Verified Voting FAQ
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/drefaq.asp


CalTech/MIT report
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/nr/2001/voting2facts.html


LibertyWhistle (Spillane)
http://www.libertywhistle.us/

LIBRARY at Blackbox Voting
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/view_library.cgi?table=library

Rob Georgia
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/robgeorgia.htm

Mercuri FEC submission
http://www.notablesoftware.com/Papers/FECRM.html

PIMA COUNTY REPORT (This one's impt)
http://www.pimademocrats.org/votingreport/votingintegrity.htm

Here are some o links for Voting Irregularities:

VOTING IRREGULARITIES COMPILATIONS
Glitch vs. Programming errors
http://blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12

Voting Irregularities - Bev's compilation
http://www.workersrighttovote.org/more.htm

VoteWatch - Election glitches discussion
http://pub103.ezboard.com/bsoldiervoice


A bunch of other stories/links is here:
http://www.bartcopnation.com/dcforum/DCForumID7/87.html


====
The Baltimore City Paper link from Dec. listed above talks about some bribery of elected officials on the part of some companies, the Pima County Report has some conflict of interest info, Lynn Landes's Ownership site shows major conflicts of interest, and here is just a little more to chew on, with a few election irregularities at the end:

02/05/2002
The Baton Rouge Advocate
http://blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=19

"In Arkansas, Secretary of State Bill McCuen pleaded guilty to felony charges that he took bribes, evaded taxes and accepted kickbacks. Part of the case involved Business Records Corp. , a Dallas company that sold Arkansas computerized systems for recording corporate and voter registration records.

"Arkansas officials said the scheme involved...then-BRC employee Tom Eschberger...Eschberger got immunity from prosecution for his cooperation. Today, he's a top executive of ES&S."
=============

http://blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=categories&op=newindex&catid=6
Voting Machine: Rebecca Mercuri, Peter Neumann, Roy Saltman, David L. Dill

The computer experts who refuse to shut up about the lack of security in the voting machine company. Neumann, Mercuri and Saltman have spent literally years examining the machines, reviewing errors, testifying in court and before congress, writing reports. In fact, such a wealth of information has been available on these problems, for so many years, that only the green of corporate cash and the smell of greed can explain why lawmakers decided to ignore all their findings to authorize $3.9 billion for buying computerized voting machines without putting in adequate safeguards. Dill, a professor of computer science at Stanford University, mobilized such an impressive roster of scientists for his voting machine reform demands that several counties stopped their purchasing process in its tracks.
============
Voting Machine: NUMBERS THAT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE:
Posted on Friday, March 21 @ 19:41:11 EST by BevHarris
http://blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=13

* A Texas-sized lack of curiosity about discrepancies: In Comal County Texas, the uncanny coincidence of three winning Republican candidates in a row tallying up exactly 18,181 votes each was called weird, but apparently no one thought it was weird enough to audit.

* When 18 machines were pulled out of action in Dallas because they registered Republican when voters pushed Democrat, the judge quashed an effort to investigate the accuracy of the tally.

* But when Scurry County poll workers got suspicious about a landslide victory for Republicans, they had a new computer chip flown in and also counted the votes by hand — and found out that Democrats actually won by wide margins, overturning the election.


And I'm going to stop now only because I need to get back to work. Sorry it's just a data dump instead of something organized.

At the risk of being accused of trying to set your writing agenda, Will, if you're not convinced voting machines are stealing elections while giving us the ILLUSION of democracy, you haven't been doing your homework. PM me with your email address. When my project partner and I get our report done, we'll send you a copy (if she agrees, and I think she will). It's curled my hair pulling all this together, EVEN THOUGH I've been watching this whole thing really carefully from the get-go. Seeing it put together in one place is EYE-OPENING, to say the least, and it's freaking me out. Hell, I'm having a slight panic attack just thinking about it as I write this.

Eloriel

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. The appointments alone that a REPUB governor can make are good reason

to vote against the recall such as : The coastal commission, the PUC, Industrial relations etc.

Unfortunately, many are dividing the chances on this board of maintaining even THOSE appointments which weild ENORMOUS power.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

87. eat an apple-wise up

when you're in Washington State. I hear they are delicious.

Pukes want to win with fraud via touch sceen. End of story.
Give'm a chance and they'll take it.

[Bake]

19. HOW do we stop touch-screen voting??

Because if we don't, the fix is in.

Bake

[Eloriel]

51. To get involved

go to http:/blackboxvoting.org

Check it all out, incl. Discussion Forum.

Eloriel

[Ripley]

21. If the Terminator's drug/sex/harassment background

doesn't get blatant coverage before the election, it will certainly haunt him. The hard right will never back him and Smirk would lose some if he aligned with Conan.

[realFedUp]

42. I do find it hard to believe that conservative Republicans are backing

Arnold with his background. Even Larry looks cleaner.

[Clete]

62. Does the word hypocrisy fit the bill?

:-)

[Clete]

25. One thing that bothers me about the recall

is how the signatures were collected. I have had one dear lady tell me that the petition signature gatherers that were outside places like Wal-Mart were collecting petitions against the recall too. She said when she confronted the petition collector, when he solicited her about it, he pulled another petition out and told her to sign it because it was against the recall. I wondered why 30% of the Democrats signed the petition a short nine months after voting for Gray Davis.

I mean if they were getting signatures by cheating wouldn't this make the recall invalid? If any California DU'ers were given a petition to sign against the recall from the petition solicitors who were collecting signatures for the petition could you please post this. I smell a really big rat named Darrel Issa.

[JCMach1]

27. Recall efforts should have the same funding limitations

as OTHER CAMPAIGNS

i.e. for contributions... One man should not be allowed to foot the bill.

[Suspicious]

28. Wow...I have not hear this before.

Can anyone verify this?

[catzies]

71. Could you elaborate on "getting signatures by cheating?"

The signature-gatherers are paid and we call them "bounty hunters." It used to be that it was only people who were actually connected to the ballot measure in some vital way but not always anymore.

These people are often imported, and many times are armed with several petitions at once and each can be funded by a different outfit and can be unconnected to one another. I don't believe that's fraud in any way; it's just another example of outsourcing.

I always ask questions of the petition-people aabout exactly what they're proferring and 9 out of 10 say "Lady, I don't know, I'm just getting paid."

I never sign anyone's petition who answers that way because I feel it's usually a case of someone with big money subverting democracy for their own ends, just like Darryl Issa did.

This was in my local paper this week.

http://www.staronline.com/vcs/county_news/article/0,1375,VCS_226_2172356,00.html

[Clete]

79. That's fine if that is the case.

I just hope those thirty percent of Democrats really did know they were signing a petition for the recall not against it. I also signed a petition against the recall, but it was circulated at a meeting of our Democratic Party club, so I know it was kosher. Also, it was meaningless, except as protest and not legal.

I really would like Shelley to verify with those Democratic signers that they knew they were signing a petition for the recall. I truthfully don't trust used car alarm salesman, Darrell Issa, or the paid petition collectors, who are only doing a job they were told to do. Also, they were paid according to the number of signatures they collected. This also could have been an incentive to cheat.

If those signatures turn out to be collected under devious circumstances, it could make the recall null and void I think, or at least I hope it would.

[mbee]

104. The pugs like Simon and other conservative candidates will criticize

Arnold to make him look like a liberal so that Dems will vote for him. This is the real set-up here to get him in office so the Chimp can get his selection fraud for 2004 lined up early.

[onecitizen]

29. I TOTALLY agree with you!!!

This is so scarey. These people hate democracy. They will do ANYTHING (and already have) to win. They are evil. Evil to the core. Their quest for money knows no limits. How much money can someone ever spend? So, money AND power must be their gig. And not only that, THEY ARE STINGY!! I can visualize them at church, passing the plate and taking money OUT!

[newsguyatl]

31. i hear you

eloriel... i've felt literally sick on my stomach all week about this and other issues... *sigh*

check your inbox

[Mairead]

34. This is democracy, folks. If you don't like it, emigrate.

"This isn't happening just because a millionaire put a lot of money in," says Rob Richie, head of the Center for Voting and Democracy in Takoma Park, Md. "There's a climate that created the popularity for the recall."

Polls show upwards of 60 percent of Californians support the recall measure. Even if big money put the recall on the ballot, "it can't hold a gun to people's heads and force them to vote a certain way," says Mr. Richie.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0815/p04s01-uspo.html?usaNav


So please, stop with the Chicken-Little-ing already. The sky is not falling.

[indigo32]

44. Democracy is not the disenfranchisement of

the poeple who voted in november. Far fewer people will vote in this election than the prior election. Now I don't know if I believe CA will fall to 2004 to the Repubs... but I think this is one more dirty trick played by the Repukes and should be stopped.

[Mairead]

55. "Far fewer people will vote"

Oh no, the same number will vote. They might vote differently, as for example by staying home, but they'll vote. Don't kid yourself.

This is democracy. If California Dems were really worried, they'd all be out knocking doors, getting out the vote. And if you don't believe that, imagine a law being proposed that would do something genuinely upsetting, like mandating the use of bicycles.

[VOX]

47. This is the very attitude that will sink us: "Ho-hum, it's democracy"...

Yes, Gray Davis isn't all that popular among Democrats. WHO'S pushing the recall (and paying big money to do so), Democrats?

This is a Republican incursion, no more, no less -- exploiting the breach of Davis's unpopularity.

We all talk about beating Republicans. Well, here's a chance to do it in California, by voting NO on the recall.

:kick:

[Mairead]

56. No, there's no "sink us" about it, unless we are willing to be sunk

Your other line is the one that's on the mark: 'Here's a chance to do it'. That's the democratic attitude, and it should be the Democratic attitude too.

[nolabels]

86. "This how democracy works" give me a break already

There is no reason in my mind to think this is how democracy works. More to the point, this is how money works

http://www.gregpalast.com/store.htm


(snip)
The Best Democracy Money Can Buy
American Edition -- (Click here for excerpts from the book.)
Sorry, we cannot ship this product to the U.K.

Investigative journalist Greg Palast has uncovered scandal, fraud, corruption, and lies in the highest seats of power from the White House to corporate America. Known in Britain as "the greatest investigative reporter of our time" (Tribune magazine), Palast has broken some of the biggest stories of the past decade, including:

-How Bush killed the FBI's investigation of the financing of terrorist organizations by Saudi Arabia.
-How the Bush family stole the election in Florida.
-How Enron cheated, lied, and swindled its way into an energy monopoly.
(snip)

[Mairead]

95. Probably that says more about the state of your mind than anything else

:(

[nolabels]

109. Thanks for the reply, as born and raised Californian, I was thinking

the same way. :-)

[desi826]

91. It's the MANIPU;LATION of Democracy-get it straight

"This isn't happening just because a millionaire put a lot of money in," says Rob Richie, head of the Center for Voting and Democracy in Takoma Park, Md. "There's a climate that created the popularity for the recall."

Oh please.
I am so SICK of people who don't even LIVE here giving their "expert" opinion on this subject. The difference between now and when we had an actual LEGIT election is that back THEN, we had a free press.

We now do not.
The Bushies have a stranglehold on the press so that they show NO support for Davis though he still does have alot of it...especially in the Latino community.

"Polls show upwards of 60 percent of Californians support the recall measure."

This is a lie. Flat out lie. Last poll showed 53%

"Even if big money put the recall on the ballot, "it can't hold a gun to people's heads and force them to vote a certain way," says Mr. Richie."

Excuses, excuses. Trying to excuse away the criticism of this process. People are talking about it in the streets and every conversation I overhear is the same thing. NO on the recall. Not because they like Davis, but on principle.

2 good things.
A judge has ruled that unless 4 counties come up to speed on their civil rights voting laws, there will be NO Oct 7th election.
Though I am sure Ashcroft himself is helping them, the longer it takes, the better for Dems.

Bustamente is finally closing in on Arnold.
With more time, I think either him or Davis CAN kick his ass.
Terminator or not, he is still a Repub.

And I wish you would stop cheering this thing on like it is the best thing to ever happen to California. It isn't, legal though it may be.
Des

[catzies]

92. Here's an editorial from my local paper today, "Beyond the recall circus"

http://www.staronline.com/vcs/opinion_columnists/article/0,1375,VCS_223_2187257,00.html

While I don't agree with every point he makes, and there are many other points he could have made, it's still worth a read.

[Eloriel]

94. Wow. He does have some good points

I think it's very true that Americans are wanting MUCH more access to their own government, more say so. And of course, the recall unfortunately plays right into that desire/need.

Eloriel

[Mairead]

97. I agree.

I think we're seeing a political tectonic shift toward more democracy, and an unprecedented opportunity for the Dems to pull an FDR and identify with it--lock the GOP right out.

[Mairead]

96. LOL

You simultaneously claim the press is against you but is reporting favorable poll numbers correctly? For pity's sake!

[catzies]

93. Read the link I posted in no. 71 above

As a Californian, I KNOW I don't believe "upwards of 60 percent" the same way I KNOW Bush is not as popular as polls say he is.

How do I "KNOW?" Admittedly, it's anecdotal, but I don't know anyone in favor of this recall - or as we call it, California Coup 2K3.

[Mairead]

98. So you reckon the recall will be quashed, then?

Or do you mean it will just be closer...maybe it's 52% or something rather than 60+?

[catzies]

111. I am very much hoping it will be quashed.

n/t

[LearnedHand]

125. Which part of this partisan, Puke-backed recall...

...do YOU call democracy!

And why should WE emigrate!!!??? Why don't we fight it instead?

[Mairead]

144. The voting part is the part I call democracy

That's what democracy is: everyone voting who wants to do, and everyone's vote being accurately counted. It doesn't get better or more democratic than that.

[soup]

35. Adding insult to injury-

sorry. :-(

This needs to be added somewhere into your timeline. Before people even face the incredibly long list of names on the ballot, there's this to consider:

County to use only half of poll places

Decision to save $100,000 in recall vote; critics say move will discourage voters

August 5, 2003


By KERRY BENEFIELD
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Sonoma County election officials are planning to eliminate more than half of the county's polling places to save money in the Oct. 7 recall election, a plan that critics say will discourage citizens from participating in the historic vote.

The county will open 148 polling places for the election to decide the fate of embattled Gov. Gray Davis, down from about 335 during a typical election.

The decision to reduce the number of voting outlets mirrors similar moves by counties across the state.
>snip<
Consolidating polling places is prohibited in primary and general elections. However, the practice is commonly used during special elections, which typically draw smaller turnouts, Atkinson said.

Still, there never has been an election like this one in California. The plan to consolidate polling places is drawing objections from Davis supporters and some advocacy groups that contend it will alienate voters.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/05vote_a1empirea.html

and

Burton Urges Counties To Open All Polling Places
Senate Leader Wants State To Cover Election Costs

POSTED: 12:23 p.m. PDT August 12, 2003
UPDATED: 3:42 p.m. PDT August 12, 2003

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- State Senate leader John Burton is calling on California's 58 counties to make sure that all polling places are open for the Oct. 7 recall election.

County election officials have said that as many as 40 percent of the state's polling places will not be open.

Burton says the recall election could be a disaster unless county election chiefs get some sort of help. He says Los Angeles County will have less than half of its polling places open and Alameda County is eliminating 100 polling places.
http://www.thekcrachannel.com/politics/2400334/detail.html
(note: my emphases)

So, can California expect -

People get off work, go to their newly consolidated polling place, find a long line of people waiting to vote, and decide to just head on home instead?

I'm so sorry to add this information. But, since this thread seems to be laying it out, might as well get it all out there.

[Clete]

37. Not only that in our county it was

announced that there would be no absentee ballots sent in the mail. If you want one you have to go to the country registrar to pick one up. If you are home bound or out of state, I guess you can't vote. Sorry I don't have a link. It was announced at our last Democratic Party club meeting.

[soup]

43. Say What!?

So if you're absent, you must be present.

This rabbit hole goes way beyond anything Alice ever encountered, doesn't it?

[bloom]

39. kick

:kick: : :kick: : :kick: : :kick: : :kick: : :kick: : :kick:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. Clinton Carried CA Twice By Huge Margins >20%

when Pete Wilson (R) was governor.

If we lose CA we're on the way to losing forty other states.


Do I think voter fraud exists?

Most likely at the margins.

And both parties have been it's beneficiaries.

That being said I think you need a damn close race. less than .05 difference. to benefit from these shenanigans.

I just don't see how could steal an election that's not close.

[RedEagle]

50. Better if it's NOT close

Most recounts are only triggered if there is a quarter or half a PERCENT difference.

Some places might go up to 5%.

So, the bigger the swing, the less likely for a recount to be called.

Win by just enough.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. LBJ Won His First Senate Seat By I Believe 56 Votes

hence the name Landslide Lyndon.

[Zan_of_Texas]

116. yeah but

I believe roughly 9% of the vote in California will be "tallied" by electronic machines.

When a winner, if the recall succeeds, could win with 25% of the vote, 9% looks REAL BIG.

[linazelle]

53. Keep it kicked

:kick:

[LEFTofLEFT]

54. Fight the rightwing monsters like the future is at stake.

IT IS !!!

[Mairead]

57. Exactly. Well said.

[sangha]

60. It's the "Myth of Inevitability"

They did the same thing before StolenElection2000. They talked about both (a) they were going to win both the popular vote and the electoral college by a large margin, *and* they were going to win the popular vote, but not the electoral vote. Since then, we've been reading stories about how Bush* is gaining with Jews, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and now NYers and Californians.

It's all BS they can point to later and say "See, we weren't crazy. We were right!"

[jiacinto]

61. You have no proof that the GA races were stolen

I have kept my mouth shut, but Republicans do win close elections sometimes. As hard as it is for you to comprehend sometimes the voters pick Republicans. And they did in Georgia in 2002.

I do think there is a potential for fraud, but you clearly are screaming "stolen election" before you have evidence to prove it.

And then, when an election actually is stolen, thanks to your voting machine conspiracy theories, no one is going to take you seriously because you "cried wolf".

Just as in the fable, because the boy cried "wolf" so many times, when the wolf ACTUALLY did show up, no one took him serously.

So, Eloriel, unless you have that "smoking gun", which you don't, screaming fraud when you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt is like the boy crying wolf.

[Eloriel]

64. Carlos

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" is a legal term. It really doesn't apply here.

And you're right: I have no "proof" that the GA election was stolen, or the 2000 election either. I do, however, have lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and LOTS of circumstantial evidence. In fact, when you look at the picture I and others are looking at in toto, "stolen elections" here and there (and probably including Georgia) is really the only conclusion you can come to -- unless, of course, you prefer a state of denial. (Or De Nile if you prefer.)

One of the things I would encourage you to think about: you have no idea whatsoever what I know, or don't know, about any given subject, ESPECIALLY this one. So right away you are on shakey ground criticizing me for my "conspiracy theories." You're the one who knows virtually nothing about this subject (the whole subject, not just Georgia), and yet you imagine yourself enough of an authority or knowledgeable enough to say I'm crying Wolf?

Tell you what, when you acquire a reasonably equivalent knowledge base, we can argue specifics if you want. I suggest you start with the links I posted in my reply to Will Pitt, upthread. Just for starters. I can provide quite a few more when you've got those under your belt. Some of those in that reply upthread are pretty important.

Eloriel

[jiacinto]

65. I am not in a "state of denial"

Just don't scream fraud unless you can prove it convincingly. Otherwise people will just call you a sore loser.

[BevHarris]

68. Jiacinto: What happened to the missing 67 memory cards

in Fulton County, Georgia, on election night 2002? You know, the cards (like floppy disks, folks) which contained the record of the vote? The ones that contained thousands and thousands of votes.

Here is the official procedure: Print vote report, wrap it around card, put it in envelope, seal the envelope, take the envelope to the county office.

Please explain how not one, not two, but sixty-seven up and went missing.

They took away the evidence (the voter-verified paper ballot). They "lost" thousands upon thousands of votes when the cards mysteriously disappeared -- from many different precincts at once.

They can't tell us what program was on the voting machines, because they do not know. All they can tell us is: They have no certification documents for it.

And there is more: Not my story to tell, but it is my understanding that there are certain documents...documents which contain numbers that do not add up. I will wait for another person to come forward with that, assuming no plausible explanation appears.

I'd say we are approaching the right to say "there was fraud in Georgia."

Bev Harris

[DEMActivist]

70. Here are the FACTS for Carlos

Fulton certifies vote count

BYLINE: TY TAGAMI, STAFF
DATE: 11-13-2002
PUBLICATION: The Atlanta Journal and Constitution
EDITION: Home
SECTION: METRO
PAGE: B.6

Fulton County election officials said Tuesday that they discovered more errors while tallying last week's votes, but they said the final results didn't change the winner of any race.

The officials submitted results to the county Board of Registration and Elections for certification Tuesday. The board approved the count without objection, although the department's final tally was 3,621 votes more than a preliminary total released the day after the election.

Officials attributed the difference in part to about 3,100 votes recorded on 67 of the new computer voting machines whose contents went uncounted until Friday. The machines' memory cards had been misplaced by poll workers.

---

Not that it will matter, mind you. When you give Carlos facts, he just goes and starts a new, totally off topic thread. Then 2 weeks later he comes back and posts the same thing in a new thread.

[jiacinto]

72. I didn't know you had that information

I take some of what I said back then.

[Eloriel]

82. I tried to tell you, man

There's a lot you don't know about this. For one thing, I've seen VERY little of you on any of the Black Box Voting threads. Maybe you were lurking, but I doubt it.

For another, as I tried to point out in my post, you just don't know what else is known -- by me (which was my original point, since it was me you called out) and by some of the others. I'm not trying to be mysterious, I'm just trying to say don't be so quick to condemn when you're standing on thin ice, subject-knowledge-wise.

You're a very bright guy, with quite a bit of talent in certain directions. But you tend to undermine yourself when you get certain ideas in your head that you refuse to listen to older, wiser, more experienced, or demonstrably more knowledgeable people about. I've seen you do it again and again. I've seen you criticize people for saying certain things, or espousing certing viewpoints, and then months later you read a BOOK on the subject and you're suddenly converted. That's all good and well, but you could've gotten there faster by listening to some of the people on DU, who maybe haven't written books but aren't necessarily less knowledgeable.

And no, not everyone on DU is right (obviously). But just don't be so quick to condemn or dismiss DUers who OBVIOUSLY have experience and knowledge which you do not, even cannot have. I guess it's particularly galling when you dismiss (and then also dare criticize) the real-life experience of people who have lived through eras or even current events which you have not.

Eloriel

[jiacinto]

130. I am not trying to "dismiss" you

But I think screaming "stolen election" well before you have that "smoking gun" is not a good way to convince people. I do think some of those elections were suspicious. I've lurked on the voting machine conspiracy threads a lot, but the problem I see is that you all can't conclusively prove fraud. And by saying there was "fraud" before you can clearly prove it undermines your case to the general public.

[ewagner]

105. THIS is the POINT

Bev,

I've been trying to follow this since I first came to DU. My understanding of what has transpired in the BBV arena is this:

1. There is/were tragic security lapses in the codes of the Diebold machines.
2. Diebold sales reps have influenced or bribed countless election officials
3. There is a conflict of interest with elected officials and the purchase of these machines.
4. There is circumstantial evidence of vote irregularities in a number of states. BUT

there have been no charges filed against anybody for vote tampering.

The Georgia case you cited above is the most promising case for proving that Diebold security lapses resulted in a stolen election. How can this line of inquiry be pursued?

edited for crappy keyboarding

BECAUSE

If you (or we, for I include the really good folks here at DU) could prove just one case of a stolen election, then the whole process of electronic voting would be cleaned up.

[PurityOfEssence]

73. No, you're in the District of Denial

You've espoused the theory many times that we need to maintain credibility by not breathing a whisper of conspiracy. Your theory simply doesn't hold water, because it's based on the assumption that the right wing will tolerate contrary points of view. They simply won't; anyone who will be put off by something like this never would have voted with us anyway. Any swing voter who is put off by this is probably offset by another curious one who's energized to vote with us because of the theory.

They hate us. If we make it easier to marginalize ourselves, it only feeds their hobbyist frenzy. Who cares what they think of us? What matters are the swing voters and getting fellow lefties off their lazy or demoralized asses and into the voting booths. Underhanded tricks can often build a constructive outrage.

Our "credibility" doesn't matter to these people, they want to destroy us. The the net result among the swing voters will not be to be "turned off" by such displays.

There's already HUGE popular suspicion to voter fraud from the Florida escapade, so this is building on pre-existing prejudice and suspicion.

Jim McDermott is right: it's critical to keep people convinced of the integrity of the voting, otherwise the essential glue of society dissolves and we'll have a feckless or embittered underclass that feels no part of or responsibility to our common pursuits.

The worst case scenario of EXTREME ACTIVISM on the subject of voter fraud is that they're merely slowed down; the best case is that they're stopped. Once one has demonstrated the SLIGHTEST POSSIBILITY of fraud in a system, anyone who fights against it has opened him/herself up to devastating criticism. This is GOOD, because to the unitiated, we're merely asking that the sanctity of a vote is respected, whereas they're put in the awkward position of supporting fraud.

[JCMach1]

74. Carlos, voter fraud has gone on with some regularity throughout

much of American history.

Only now, it has had to go high tech.

Even worse, it plays right into American blind faith in technology. It's a case of-- 'if that's what the computer says, it MUST be true.'

[Kanola]

63. I'm on it

I am part of the small Califunitedvsrecall group and have volunteered on Cruz Bustamantes' website to whatever I can to get him elected if Davis gets recalled. I am willing to what is needed to not get a REPUG or the Cyborg as our Governor. Anyone who needs my help can leave a message for me in my inbox. I am in the Central Valley in CA.

[Eloriel]

66. Good for you!!

And good luck.

I'm glad to see some action.

Eloriel

[PATRICK]

75. Is anyone awake?

On one side the pols, NONE of whom seem to have an inkling that Electoral Skynet is arriving. On the other the ignorant masses gleefully marched up to the media cameras to gush over their movie star Quisling.

In between, those who seem to be watching a rerun everyone else WILL NOT glance at. The utter clarity and predictability of Bushco. The blackboxvoting octopus.

We are trying to stop a highly preventable bout of stupid horrid history. We know. We communicate and what we get from the wise old DNC is utter naivete and silence. Not about theories but ominous facts peretient to career survival and everyone's basic survival as well.

Carter, Gore, Clinton, Kerry, the candidates, the DNC, the locals, the experts, ALL off to the side otherwise occupoed and unwilling to credit the potential evil and the very real and present risk in our vulnerable, disappearing America.

I feel like that guy who went back in time and couldn't stop Kennedy from being shot. After 2004 is Carville going to bag his head again? Is MacAuliffe going to blanche, beat his breast as if the Dems can't win votes? Are the Repugs locked in solid for a century of Amerikan terror and world devastation of intentional neglect, exploited weakness? Angry striking out at our fellow dupes?

[4dog]

67. Agreed!

Though we feel sickened to encounter a level of evil that we had not ever conceived of, what can we do but fight?

[fabius]

76. proof?

Eloriel, " I have no "proof" that the GA election was stolen, or the 2000 election either..."

You've no doubt seen this:

http://www.gregpalast.com./columns.cfm?subject_id=1&subject_name=Theft%20of%20Presidency

If the stakes are high enough, cheating is virtually guaranteed. The challenge is to make it as difficult as possible.

[Eloriel]

83. Thanks for the link

I've read a bunch of Pallast stuff. The Jim Crow article looks intriguing. Haven't seen that.

Eloriel

[dmr]

77. KICK

:kick:

[John_H]

78. "If Arnold wins, we WILL lose California ...."

Can you please explain without hyperbole and generalizations how this would happen, because I can't see, for the life of me, how chimpy could possibly win CA. If he even gets close in california it's going to be a landslide win for him--if he's close in CA he's winning FL, WV, MO, MN, and WI by huge margins. Remember, he's got to get close on his own before any governor's organization can possibly help him

i understand you're trying to get people whipped up about the recall and voting machines, but telling people they're sure of losing in 2004 if they happen to lose this one doesn't seem like a way to get pople motivated for 2004. Plus it's just not borne out by any precedent or facts.

[Clete]

80. From Senator Barbara Boxer's email to me some time ago.

She stated that the margin for winning Democratic votes is getting narrower and narrower. That her next run for Senator would be a very tight race. So we Democrats in California are working with a very narrow margin of liberal votes these days.

I really wish all those Republicans from other states stayed home. Of course, they come here for the jobs because their Repuke run states don't have any. But yet they still vote Repuke and are ruining our state.

[Eloriel]

85. Not borne out by precedent?

Have you ever heard of Florida 2000 Election? Have you read even a smidgeon of what went on during that election to disenfranchise voters, suppress the vote, and outright rig the vote?

Are you aware that some of the same software that was used on Diebold machines in 2002 was also used on the optical scan machines in FL in 2000?

Are you aware, for example, that some of the optical scanners (the ones in Dem areas) ignored improperly marked ballots while the optical scanners in GOP areas let the voter correct their ballot? That a software "glitch" in Volusia County coughed or hiccuped and "lost" 19,000 votes (or thereabouts -- I always have trouble remembering numbers)? And that's just a small sampling.

Are you aware that Gore votes were diminished by somewhere up to 90,000 JUST DUE TO THE voter purge ordered by Katherine Harris? We have no idea how many votes "Jews for Buchanan" and other victims of the infamous butterfly ballot cost Gore, but I do remember seeing a guestimate in the tens of thousands.

And we also don't have a clue of the numbers that could've been "lost" or "changed" as a result of computerized optical scan machines in use in various places. Most of the excitement centered on other things, which very easily could've been part of the plan (butterfly ballot and all, compliments of Adnan Kashoggi's ex-girlfriend, which could be just a very odd coincidence, I suppose).

AND SO FORTH.

What I'm trying to do is get people motivated to help stop a Repug win in CA and stop the voting machines everywhere until they have voter-verified paper ballot AND open source software ('cause paper ballots won't help if there's not enough of a glaring problem that someone realizes a manual recount is needed).

http://www.blackboxvoting.org

Edited: If you don't want generalities, I can recommend a good book. See http://blackboxvoting.com. ;-)

Eloriel

[nolabels]

99. Eloriel, a lot of people are living in a state of denial

My brother just came over today to ask me about this special election. He was hell bent on what was going on with the Invasion (* symps call war) of Iraq and how it was just a big set up. I was told him a lot of details and everything to point he was incredulous. So today, when he was asking about our special election in California he got informed about where he and the rest of us might stand. .

This thing that goes "I don't want to listen to you because the ramifications are too devastating” kicked in. I started telling him about black box voting, Diebold running on Windows Wireless and the whole gambit and he just shut down. He couldn't take it or even believe they were running Microsoft on them machines. It he got a little perplexed after a bit after that and guess the conversation ended on it. My brother is a slight geek on computers and his put a few of them together for friends, so when I hit him about the wireless part, he just couldn't believe they would be doing such things.

Bev and probably a lot of other people hit on this and the type of thing was going to happen a while back. So its just stares people in the face even with normal DUers cannot believe even with the evidence. I think its par for course, just got to keep plugging away

[Lauren2882]

110. Florida and California are different.

Eloriel,
The difference between FL and CA is that, as the poster above pointed out, FL was close in the first place. That is, perhaps 46% of the electorate genuinely intended to vote for Bush (and perhaps 2% for Nader, and 48% for Gore). These numbers are based on both pre-election voting and exit polling on the day of the election.
In California, it is highly unlikely that it will ever reach the point where even 46% of the electorate will intend to vote for Bush because of the political attitudes of the California public. So to claim that you know with certainty that if Arnold is elected, California WILL VOTE for Bush in '04 undermines your credibility. In addition, arguing from the assumption that you definitely know more than those with whom you are arguing alienates people because it is insulting. Both of these things are unfortunate because it does seem that you have a lot of knowledge to bring to the table on this very important issue.

Lauren

[Eloriel]

114. Lauren

So to claim that you know with certainty that if Arnold is elected, California WILL VOTE for Bush in '04 undermines your credibility.

Oh, no no no no no. Nuh huh. The FL comparison was about the unbelievable, absolutely MASSIVE vote suppression and outright vote fraud that went on. I'm telling you, I think every possible single technique was used. INCLUDING Diebold optical scan machines which, among other things, seem to have ignored (didn't count) ballots with stray marks in Dem counties while letting voters correct the

There is NOTHING that will stop this same thing from happening in CA if any Repug gets in office. It doesn't take that many people to pull it off -- esp. with computerized, hackable voting machines -- and Repugs are increasingly known for their amoral behavior in such things.

So all Rove&Co. need to do is create the notion that a Bush win isn't impossible, and then steal it.

Voila!

Eloriel

[SharonAnn]

143. Hmmm, did you mean "immoral"? Or really "amoral"

eom

[John_H]

141. My point is this:

To steal an election--whether you're using BBV machines or old fashioned methods--the election has to be close enough to steal.

Here's the catch: If california is close enough to steal we're toast. Because if we're close in california we're getting absolutely whipped in the states I mentioned, making California irrelevent.

As for the BBV stuff, I'm extremely troubled by it and partially convinced by Bev's good work.

I will be fully convinced when I read about or see a demonstration of an actual machine or mockup having done to it what Bev says can be done to it.

[LearnedHand]

126. Because the winner (the Guv)...

gets to appoint ALL the important state officials, including the Secretary of State (who, if CA is like other states, is the election official who certifies the vote count).

[Clete]

81. Kick

:kick:

[juajen]

84. I agree. It's another coup d'tat(sp.?)

Please, if you live in California, help out. Is there anything DUers can do who do not live in California? Also, what has happened to the group that was going to organize dems to do exit polling in 2004? Anybody know?

[iangb]

88. CA's only a side show. Wait till you see the 'Main Event'

Come 2005 and you'll be wondering how they did it.

How did they get away with cancelling the election?.......and barely a peep from their opponents.

The worse Bush's numbers get, and the more sus the BBV siuation.......the more likely he'll use those powers handed to him by Congress (and you).....and simply declaring an election as 'Not in the interests of National security'......That's all he needs to do.

He doesn't need a major event as a trigger.......in case it's escaped your attention that's already happened. He's already empowered to do as he likes..............and he will.

[nolabels]

89. Not my attention, I have been watching this stuff for quite awhile

And I am also quite sure a lot of others that post here also have been around the block a couple times. There is a vast storehouse of knowledge floating around here some days; you just have to watch for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=133055

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=157573

[Classical_Liberal]

101. We won New York with republican governer

Vote theft only works in tossup states like florida and Georgia.

[LearnedHand]

127. On what do you base your analysis, Classic?

I think Eloriel and others have been trying to emphasize that it's NOT just marginal, tossup states like FL and GA. It's the states in which the BFEE installs governors who then install all the right people to THROW the vote.

I don't get it. We demonize forever a baseball team that throws a World Series game, but we don't so much as bat an eye (or worse, we make excuses) when our "elected" government throws entire elections.

[Classical_Liberal]

145. On the FACT that democrats have won states with Republican

governers.

[TheBigGuy]

102. why do we even bother to vote anymore? Circle-jerk politics.

it seems with these rigged voting machines the whole idea of going to the polls is pointlesss.....

........so political discussion & political activism is just a big circle-jerk.

[Q]

103. Good thread, Eloriel...but I have to...

...disagree about one thing: Democracy is already dead. It died when the Bush* Right Wing was allowed to get away with stealing the 2000 election. No acknowlegement of election fraud. No repercussions. No punishment. Most Americans still call it a 'close election'...as instructed by the 'liberal media' and Demigod Bush*.

- The US will be lucky to EVER have another free and fair election.

[americanstranger]

106. 'and'? Or 'or?'

Your header - 'Wake up and kiss Democracy goodbye' - suggests that it's a done deal and there's nothing we can do but 'wake up' and watch it happen.

Substitute 'or' for 'and,' and it becomes a call to action - which I see that your post actually is. But I just needed to point out the fatalistic sentiment in your header.

-as

[Q]

107. On the other hand...

...what can you provide as evidence that Democracy is still alive and well in America? The very pillars that supported a democratic foundation have crumbled into rubble: coequal branches of government...free press...impartial courts...free are fair elections. Jefferson once wrote that if ANY of these pillars fell...the rest would soon come tumbling after.

- It's a done deal. Now it's up to us to find a way to stop and then reverse the tide.

[Cocoa]

108. evidence: the democratic primary campaign

Have the dems ever fielded such an excellent set of candidates?

Kucinich and Sharpton are getting true progressive ideas out at every event, Dean has transformed the race with the Internet, there's just a total air of excitement around the whole thing, especially for this early.

[LearnedHand]

128. This is evidence ONLY...

...that the Dems can turn out for one another, not that we can actually prevail against the BFEE.

[Fescue4u]

112. While the recall is dangerous and bad..

Its not the end of civilization. Its still only one state in turmoil...and state that historicaly been pretty crazy anyway.

I think we'll survive.

[VOX]

139. Damn it, FIGHT!!! Don't roll over for this! It's nothing to shrug off...

this is DEMOCRATIC Underground. You want to beat the Republicans and the right wing?

Then do whatever you can to defeat this recall, because California will figure prominently in the 2004 national election. That's why the Republicans started the recall, that's why they funded it, that's why they want it.

Don't just ho-hum the state into the hands of the Republicans -- FIGHT them, fang and claw!!!

[ComerPerro]

113. I am inclined to agree

Its over.

But I am inclined to sit back and say, "Hey, America, you want to let these jerkoffs turn us into Nazi Germany, thats fine. But you damn well better take responsibility when the time comes. I will not forget how proud you were of that murdering shithead. So fuck you"

Finish college, move to Canada...

[Eloriel]

115. Well, I can understand that sentiment right up until you get to the point

where your lack of attention and action ends up hurting a lot of people -- and the world -- while you just turn your back and walk away.

Normally, I have no problem with people who post here saying, "It's getting bad. I've decided to emigrate."

However, when tht's combined with a "fuck 'em" attitude that includes people who are trying to prevent chaos, I take exception to it.

One thing you may not quite understand. We have been travelling down an incredible mirror image of what Germany went through in the 1930s under Hitler. The parallels are MORE than eery, they tend toward the definitive. That alone is bad enough, but remember the end game: it took external intervention, and a big 'ole bloody world war, to wrest Hitler from power.

IOW, if things didn't get MUCH worse than they are now, I might just shrug off your comment. But if we don't stop the trajectory we're on, things could get VERY ugly -- and for millions both here and around the world -- and ultimately requiring outside intervention.

Do you really care so little about America and your fellow citizens?

Eloriel

[Undemcided]

117. Why is this the end of Democracy?

I don't understand all the sky-is-falling remarks. Surely this is just Democracy in action?

Recall attempts have happened lots of times in California, but this time it succeeded.
http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/ca/election/story/6821007p-7771308c.html

[VOX]

138. Because it is NOT democracy -- it a coup funded by the right wing!!!

Yes, it is "legal," in the sense that this antiquated law still sits on the books, but the right wing has funded this recall drive to further their own agenda!

If not the literal end of democracy, it is certainly a big nail in its coffin.

NO on the recall!

[Undemcided]

142. Have to disagree

During the Clinton impeachment his popularity number were consistently high. Look at how popular Davis is these days. His numbers are already in the shitter and heading further south every day. So no matter what your opinion is on the recall you can’t really defend Davis.

You can say right wing coup all you like but Davis would more than likely lose against a child molester on a straight vote. Bustamante is charging Davis with undermining his campaign so is this just power at any cost for Davis?

[jfkennedy]

118. Democracy died years ago in 1963

Democracy died when John kennedy was shot in 1963. The 2000 election just made the death of democracy legal or official.

[Ladyhawk]

119. This is probably a stupid post

but here I go anyway.

I am a somewhat pessimistic person, although I usually label it "realism." Recently I've become re-interested J.R.R. Tolkien's LOTR series. One thing Tolkien believed strongly is that it is wrong to despair because we cannot know the future. This comes across strongly in The Lord of the Rings. The free peoples of Middle Earth did not have enough military might to beat back the powers of Mordor, yet they fought on. Military might did not win the day, but evil was cast down in the end by the actions of three very small people.

We cannot know all ends. So, let's not give up just yet.

[David Zephyr]

120. Eloriel, I Came Late To Your Party...But I Share Your Sentiments.

I am doubtful that the Bushies will even allow the pretense of an election this time and...if they do, they have a trump up their sleeve that will guarantee he will be President again. I'll be writing on this shortly

[niceypoo]

122. California will go to the democrats

Unless the GOP cheats. Having the govenorship doesnt give them the state. Its that simple. Its a case of GOP crybabies. There is nothing Bush can do that will make California democrats vote for them. Everything Bush does turns to shit without exception. They are total incompetents and their every action proves it. Iraq will be Bushes final coffin nail.

[Eloriel]

131. Yes, well, my whole point was ABOUT the GOP cheating

Otherwise, I wouldn't have a concern in the world 'cause I know that CA is Democratic. Why do YOU suppose that Bush&Co. is already saying they think they can take CA and NY? Under current circumstances, they can't. What has to change for a claim like that to be even remotely believable and worse, doable? Think about it.

I hope you'll explore the voting machines issue, because if your state or county uses them or starts using them, your vote is at risk. And one of the things I learned most strongly in November-December 2000, was that our votes are SACRED. What I've learned from the BlackBoxVoting issue is that is the sine qua non for democracy.

Put another way: You can't vote 'em out if you didn't vote 'em in.

Eloriel

[VOX]

140. "Unless the GOP cheats?" THEY CHEAT EVERY DAMN DAY!!!

Do not just walk away from this recall! It's not something to be simply shrugged off. California will figure prominently in the 2004 national election, and it's no use handing the state over to the Republicans, who will use the state offices and networks to crank up the big-money machine, just for starters.

Where it goes from there is just to dark to even contemplate.

NO on the recall.

[dusty64]

124. I couldn't agree more.

:kick: Especially the "voting" machines.

[jimmynochad]

129. Some background on the order of candidates

I hope this is not a duplicate piece of info...

The alphabetical random order is part of every CA election. There are two orders, one for statewide contests and one for county contests. The random order was instituted to provide a fair shuffling of the location of a candidate in relation to other candidates. The second item you refer to on the ballot is the ballot rotation. States have different methods but most are based on the shuffling of paper ballots to make the name of candidates have equal chance at being first on the ballot. In CA, for statewide elections, this is done by election assembly district. This recall is interesting in that there are more candidates than assembly districts so there are about half of the candidates that will never get to appear first. I don't know why there is no challenge on this basis.

The paper ballots used in several CA counties have one major limitation - they can not show all of the candidates on one page. This means that if two pages are used for one contest, then each page has to be hand counted because someone can vote for one person on each page (which is an overvote) and the paper ballots used now do not have a mark or bar code that indicates that a pair of paper counts as one ballot. From my scanning of vendors in CA, the Avante system uses a bar code but last check showed their paper system is not yet approved in CA. Hand counting could be good news / bad news. Good news because hand counting is done more openly. Bad news because there will be more errors. Even in touch screen counties, they use paper ballots for absentee.

I am not much of a political tea leave reader but I hear from my repub friends that Arnold actually scares them because think of this scenario - Davis lose recall 55 to 45. Arnold wins with say 40% of replacement vote. That means that more people voted for Davis than Arnold yet Arnold wins on recall rules. This means that in 2004, the repubs are working with a governor that did not get a majority of the vote plus his inexperience in politics will cost him some embarrassing moments that will be replayed over and over by the dem nominee.

CA law - voters get five minutes to vote code 19363(although rarely enforced).

CA voters are used to long ballots. I believe they can have over 200 candidates plus all of the ballot measures. I wonder if turnout will be over 50%. I think we should have some kind of pool. My guess is 45%.

[Eloriel]

132. Interestng, Jimmy

The possible legal challenge you point out is also interesting.

I have been wondering to myself why this randomizing can't be challenged, for THIS election anyway, given the fact that it WILL tend to disenfranchise voters, cause chaos, etc. Frankly that five minute rule sounds pretty suspect too.

But then I'm certainly no constitutional legal scholar, so what do I know? Not much.

Eloriel

[jimmynochad]

133. Time limit rules

This rule is pretty standard fare. It prevents candidates from sending squatters to the polling place. I have never heard of someone being forced to leave the polling booth.

Randomizing was instituted based on a court ruling to protect equal rights. It is the voter's duty to read their sample ballot and have the candidate in mind before they go to the polls.

JNC

[Capn Sunshine]

136. Last legal challenge decision due tomorrow

On the very issue of voting systems.
I've NEVER heard of the "five minute rule" being enforced.

BTW Thanks Eloriel for the link. There are some good resources available if you check the links, and the articles are pretty topical IMO:)

[farmboxer]

134. How Can We Stop The Republican Manufactured And

programmed voting machines?! The right wing owns the President, both the Senate and the House, The Supreme Court, the news media, most newspapers, most magazines, almost all talk radio shows, etc.

They appear to be planning another coup!

I get very angry when anyone says that Bush won Florida! Bush lost Florida! Bush was not elected, he was appointed by five Republicans!

[Dover]

135. Why not organize a statewide exit polling group too. If it's helpful we

could use it as a model for the '04 election.

[Mairead]

146. I think a grassroots exit-polling effort would be excellent

Along with pointers to a website where the exit results will be posted and information about to-the-streets demos if the exit results and the official results don't match well enough.

[knight_of_the_star]

137. We can still win

Even if they try to rig, if we can get a tally of who voted for what via exit polling we can sue the state to do a recount.

[RedEagle]

147. Kicking back...

up!

[tom_paine]

148. I agree Eloriel

And I also have never been more sure of anything in my life.