Lack of universal health care is killing and bankrupting us

[prolesunited]

Was reading The Nation today at lunch and was alarmed by these two statistics.

An estimated 18,000 people die annually from a lack of health care.

Of the increasing number of bankruptcy filings, 50 percent involve health care issues?

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040621&s=pollitt


Why are people not more outraged? Where are these voices in the media? How do we defeat the lobbyists to change the situation.

[havocmom]

1. That bankruptcy stat helps explain the reordering of priorities

for who gets paid when (not if) citizens resort to this after illness/accident makes paying staggering medical bills unlikely. The big credit banks have to make sure they get their cut before anyone else does!

What is sad is so many people who think they are protected because they have health insurance, finding out there is a lot of fine print when they need to have that insurance kick in for medical expenses. Too many are still left with catastrophic expenses and are forced to sell off all their assets. Leaves nothing for old age but bitterness.

[redqueen]

2. People aren't more outraged because they think

it's all due to frivolous lawsuits. Thank the reich-wing media for that gem.

The voices in the media are mostly paid by big corporate conglomerations ... to focus on 'approved' stories only, and not get the hoi polloi too worked up over anything serious.

As far as how we defeat the lobbyists... I'd love to know.

[prolesunited]

3. I know

and my questions were more rhetorical than anything else.

I wish people could see the truth. They usually don't until it affects them and their families. It's only the truly delusional that think they are the exception and everyone else are losers and cheaters.

We really need to find a way to get the money out of politics. I think our forefathers would be sickened by the level of corruption these days. The new Medicare drug bill is prime evidence of the influence of lobbyists.

[calimary]

22. "As far as how we defeat the lobbyists... I'd love to know." HERE'S HOW:

Simple. We have to make it clear that, in numbers, we're BIGGER than they are. Unfortunately, THAT takes time, energy and commitment. That takes people actually calling and haranguing their reps, and making one or two calls, at least once during the week, or sending emails or better yet: PAPER LETTERS, demanding action.

We CAN'T fight the lobbyists at their own game - lots of three-martini lunches at swanky restaurants, NBA/NFL tickets, vacation trips and other travel freebies and lots of perks. Well, we know we don't have those resources. But we have numbers. Sheer numbers. And commitment.

How many times do we hear politicians of all stripes reading some letter from somewhere - as an example of the folks at home and how they think. There's NO reason why one of OUR letters couldn't be one of THOSE letters. Furthermore, if anybody has the following two things: a small child at home and an ailing grandma or uncle or family bread-winner, it would be MOST effective IF THAT CHILD were to send in a little note. Politicians ALWAYS respond to kids. It's good PR. Sooooooooooooooooooo then, let's play some PR. Any way to put an appealing, potentially photogenic, apple-pie face on the issue or on someone's hard-luck story is THE way to go.

Just a thought...

The big guns don't have to have the last word. Think Goliath. Think DAVID.

[Kanary]

24. "Think Goliath. Think David."

Great image, calimary!

We may be puny individually, but together we'll make one heck of a David!

I know some people on DU who made a vow to spend 15 minutes a day calling/writing letters, etc. It all adds up, and if we all may make that effort, we'll make an impact.

To your slingshots! :hi:

Kanary

[redqueen]

35. You're right of course

but since I've been writing and calling for years ... it's hard to fight off the cynicism that always threatens to overwhelm.

I absolutely LOVE your suggestion re: kids' letters.

*sigh*

Onward!

[Malva Zebrina]

52. yes the wealthy people where I live who I talk to are convinced it is

because of lawsuits and the high cost of doctor insurance.

One thing is for sure--it is woefully broken and it is true I think--elders face having their assets taken and their only asset may be their home in which thy have lived for twenty five years.

It is at the point where it is becoming actually cruel to the elderly, exploited and vulnerable who will end up with nothing left of their self esteem or of their economic stability in their "
golden years, because their medical costs have reached enormous proportions for some reason or other. The wealthy, of course, do not face this. It is one of my biggest fears .

[Lars39]

4. Absolutely staggering stats.

There's got to be a way to organize the uninsured, to educate the doctors so that a better system can get through.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. Yup , you said it

and we the little people better not get chronically sick. We know we cannot afford it and we fear it. Our modest little home will be taken from us and given to the rich hospital corporation in order to pay for the obscene treatments that modern medicine, hand in hand with the modern pharmaceutical industry tells us to ask our doctore and actually controls our lives.

No way for me.

I will die with my dignity intact. I will do everyting I can to bilk this exploitive system that does not give a shit about me.

Sorry, but it is a question of survival at this point.




In this illustration, the Nazis demonstrated that the daily cost to the state of maintaining one chronically ill person (5.5 marks) could be better spent supporting an entire healthy German family. Era: Before WWII

[LWolf]

6. I don't know where the media is,

but I know where I am. I have insurance. Good insurance, and I feel fortunate to have it. Although the only hosipital in my area no longer takes my insurance. The only time I needed more than a checkup, they airlifted me to a hospital 50 miles away.

My mother is finally covered by medicare. I nursed her through 2 injuries and one hospital stay while she was uninsured, and watched her assets disappear.

My sons, since they turned 21, are no longer covered by my insurance. One has bad insurance at work, one has no insurance. I watch them do without needed care, and I constantly worry about them. How long will my oldest son have to go in pain with his hernia, and unable to do many things, until his insurance company finally approves something? It's been 3 years. When my younger son was bit by a black widow this spring, he got no care. The emergency room didn't want him, because he couldn't get there quickly enough for the antivenom to do any good. No one else would see him without cash upfront. And he was laid off in March.

Why do people think health care is a privelege???

[EDT]

7. I work in a couple European countries with Universal health care, and

the taxes on everything are around 28%. Buy a new $20,000 car, pay $5,600 more in taxes, buy a $200 lawn mower, pay $56 more.

Universal healthcare isn't free. Though comforting to live in a country where it exists, you are paying for it everytime you buy anything.

[Mike Niendorff]

9. re: "Universal health care isn't free"

Of course it isn't.

And neither is our current HMO-based system.

My bare-bones, massive-deductible, catastrophic-care-only insurance coverage *still* runs me into the four figures every year (and even the cost for this borderline-useless coverage has still tripled in the last 3 years).

So I'll tell you right now: I'd give up my private insurance *in a heartbeat* for a national health care system. It would cost me *far* less, it would deliver better coverage, my health would improve, my *life* would improve, and I wouldn't have to worry about what I'm going to do the *next* time they jack my rates up by 150%.

It's not even a close question, frankly.


MDN

[Commendatori]

38. I don't mean to pick, but

how would it deliver better care to someone who already has private insurance? I can't imagine that my health care would improve.

I agree with the need to help the uninsured, but "universal" (i.e, everyone has to be a part of the plan) is something I'm completely against.

Why can't we help the uninsured and leave alone those happy with what they have? I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes (within reason) to make sure that everyone has health care, but I am NOT willing to be enrolled in some HMO and give up the health care I have. Why should I have to sacrifice choice for me or my family?

In short, why force an entire country into a system when so many don't need it?

[prolesunited]

54. Here's some points to consider

How do you know that you'll always retain your private insurance. If you're quite wealthy, congratulations, but most of us are relying on maintaining our jobs to keep it. How do you know you won't be outsourced or your company won't go bankrupt?

People who think they have it made often suddenly find themselves on the other side looking in. For example, those who retired from the steel mill were told that they would have health insurance throughout their retirement years. First, they kept upping the premiums, then a couple mills went bankrupt and the assets were sold. You know what got dumped first? Legacy costs. All those who thought they had played by the rules all of these years and thought they had taken care of themselves (you know, personal responsibility?) were left with nothing.

What if your employer shifts more and more on the burden for premiums on you? Will you be able to maintain it? For some, the cost of family coverage through their employer is so high that they can't afford it. Are you sure you'll always be able to afford better, private coverage?

To assuage those who argue the same point, I wouldn't even mind a two-tiered system, basic care for all, operated publicly as a non-profit, with the option of people securing their own care, outside of the system, from a private entity.

[Commendatori]

60. The last sentence is all I wanted to hear

I'm not so blind as to assume that I'll always have exactly what I do now, but I don't want the government deciding that I only have one option.

[alarimer]

64. right

My insurance is pretty good and it covers only about 80% of expenses. Which is okay if they are in the few hundred dollar range. But if you have a catastrophic illness or injury where the bills add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, it is certain bankruptcy for me. $200,000 in medical bills means I would owe about $40,000, more than I could afford to pay even in installments and even though I have a job that pays (so it doesn't pay all that well but I don't starve). It would mean almost certain bankruptcy for me. That is, of course, an extreme case but bad things do happen to people all the time.

I do believe that universal health care is the solution, even though it would mean having to pay more in taxes. I think we would all come out ahead even with higher taxes.

[Francine Frensky]

14. The US already pays more per capita for healthcare than any other

country. It's just not spread evenly.

The fact is, we don't need to spend a dime more on healthcare, we just need to utilize it more evenly!!

[JanMichael]

16. Oh! That's right, we do pay MORE for LESS.

As evidenced by this article.

There are better lists I just don't have time to locate them.

The US spents nearly 14% of it's GDP on Healthcare and doesn't cover 100% (44,000,000 uninsured, some 100,000,000 people in America spend more than 3 months a year without HC).

France spends 10% and does.

[JanMichael]

15. Good. I'd rather pay more for healthcare than save a few bucks on crap.

See how easy that was?

[prolesunited]

17. And that's a bad thing

how? :shrug:

No one said it was free and nowhere in my post did I imply that.

Costs can and must be reined in. Do you realize those with NO insurance pay substantially more for the same procedures?

Health care is a necessity, not a luxury. You can postpone buying a car or scale back on your next vacation trip if funds are low. Therefore, the free market is NEVER going to rein in costs. Hospitals can charge whatever they want. Your choice is to pay or die.

Why do you think the per capita expenditures are lower in other countries? It's not because they receive such inferior care, it's because the PUBLIC health is regulated more closely by the government.

[prolesunited]

18. DUPE

:hi:

[Bjornsdotter]

34. True..... But Much, Much Better System

Hi,

True story.....a few years ago my uncle was visiting me from Sweden, while here his lung collapsed. I took him to the hospital to have him treated, gave the hospital all of the info...phoned my aunt explained what happened and spoke with his health care. This is how they handled it...

1. His vacation was instantly halted and he was switched over to sick time...with full pay

2. As his recovery would be at least 5 weeks they flew his family out to be with him and instantly put my aunt on sick leave also.

3. His medical bills were paid 100% no screwing around.

4. After his sick leave was over he resumed his vacation.


Yes, you are correct...taxes are extremely high in countries like Sweden and while the Universal Heath care System might not be perfect you are NEVER denied medical care, or elderly care.

I know Ted Kennedy went to Sweden to view their system; I'd take it over what we have here any day of the week.

My Dad couldn't afford to be sick here...if he was ever seriously ill, I'll take him back home for treatment.

Cheers,
Kim

[Kanary]

39. When you say taxes are "extremely high", can you give figures?

We keep batting it about, but....... I really wonder just how much higher they are. Not too long ago, someone from Norway posted here that their taxes are something over 30% (don't have it right now exactly the figure that was quoted)

That's not "high", if that is the total amount. By the time *ALL* US taxes are figured in, I wouldn't be at all surprised if ours aren't close to that.

I very much appreciate your story -- would it be OK for us to include that in an annecdotal section?

I'm *VErY* encouraged to know that Ted Kennedy visited Sweden for the purpose of gathering info abut their system. Is there any way we can find out more about that?

A few weeks ago I was in the grocery store, and overheard one of the baggers talking to a checker about Sweden, and saying that her daugheer's inlaws were visiting here from Sweden (they are Swedish citizens), and she was relating all the stories with her eyes wide, and a tone of incredulity. USians are so used to thinking that we're the "Best" in everything, that it comes as a shock to find out just how backwards we really *are* here! What I heard her talking about is the mother-in-law saying that "Americans work too hard and too much"..... she was blown away to find out all the vacation time they get in Sweden, and the lower working hours.

We really need to start correlating these facts in order to be able to contradict all the RW "talking points", which are lies that are bought by the citizenry at their own expense.

Thanks for posting this!

Kanary

[Bjornsdotter]

47. Tax Rates and Social Insurance

Hi,

Vacation time...lol, my uncle now gets 3 months of paid vacation.

I'm still looking for tax rates, I have found this list but I believe the tax rate can go much higher for example I know my uncle pays at least 40%.

Highest and lowest local tax rates 2004

Municipality
Total local tax rate, %
Dals-Ed 34.04
Ragunda 33.72
Sollefteå 33.69
Härnösand 33.64
Smedjebacken 33.59
Mora 33.57
Borlänge 33.55
Säter 33.45
Kramfors 33.44
Vansbro 33.43
.
.
.
Höganäs 30.12
Laholm 30.00
Staffanstorp 29.88
Solna 29.85
Halmstad 29.75
Lomma 29.63
Vellinge 29.62
Ängelholm 29.43
Örkelljunga 29.15
Kävlinge 28.90


Also the link below explains the current Social Insurance in Sweden.
I was surprised at the year Social Health Care started.

www.sweden.se/templates/FactSheet____3978.asp

Cheers,
Kim

[Kanary]

57. Yeah, I sure understand all that! ~~chortle~~

Thanks so much for looking this up! I think this could really help us, if we can find all the figures, and seriously compare them.

I mean, yeah, 40% sounds high....... but ... if we really add up all the various taxes in the US, then add health care costs...... surely that will amount to more than 40%

Plus, of course, all the other benefits besides health that 40% buys.

Let us know if you find more......... I think this is an avenue to pursue.....

Kanary

[sable302]

61. so what

The cost of my family's health insurance premium alone is about 28% of our annual family income. Add to it copays and deductables and I'll take a 28 percent lawnmower tax over this any day.

[Jane Austin]

8. There is no outrage because

sick people are too tired and beat down to fight.

Healthy people don't think it will happen to them, and old people are tired.

This is where liberalism comes in. Those who have plenty (health, money) must consider the needs of those who don't - - for the good of everybody.

[mopaul]

10. let them eat death. CEO's need raises and bonuses

the poor can't afford lobbyists, fuck em

[Karenina]

11. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings...

and have often been reviled for my :tinfoilhat: "big picture" view, however I will dare say it again for anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. AN IMPORTANT GOAL of PNAC/*cabal that now controls the gub'mint reins of the "lone superpower" is MASSIVE POPULATION REDUCTION. THAT INCLUDES YOU!!! They have learned well from their predecessors... No nassy-jenky pix of burning, starved bodies, no stats to hold them accountable on the home front.

Depleted Uranium and chaos will work for the "sand nigras" over dey who envy you for your "freedoms" as the media and the last 30 years of BRAINWASHING will cover their tracks. POLICY will thin y'all out with poisoned air, food, water and no health care or recourse. I CAN NO LONGER IMAGINE lllWHAT///_ _ _ it will take for Americans to see the handwriting on the wall... :cry: :cry: :cry:

[dumpster_baby]

13. ((((groan))))

Um, no, sorry, but the neoliberals in charge of the USA and UK definitely want MORE people in those countries. More people == more labor supply == lower costs == higher profits

[Karenina]

25. Hmmm...

Ya think? See: Africa :freak:

[dumpster_baby]

12. Bush 1, Bush 2 & CLinton are guilty of negligent manslaughter

They should all be tried in court for their crimes, for failing to provide a standard of healthcare found in other industrialized countries, many of which are much less wealthy than the USA.

[Kanary]

19. Why? Indeed. How? Indeed.

I've been here on DU for less than a year, and I've seen many of these threads about the deplorable state of Health(less) care in the US. I'm always amazed at how many people haven't really been aware of these figures and stats. Yes, it *REALLY* is as bad as this!

I see over and over the same comments made about why Universal coverage "won't work" (imported directly from the RW), and the same gripes about the abysmal sorry state in this nation.

So, here's my "Modest Proposal" -- How 'bout we form a sort of "Think Tank" here on DU, and put together all the salient facts from the previous threads, and invite the many here who are quite well informed, and see if we can come up with some clear directions to take. There is a lot of knowledge and talent here on this forum, and it seems to me we could actually do something more than trade war stories (althought that is important, also.)

So, how 'bout it....... can we take a step forward, and see if we can actually make some progress in this issue?

This is a hot issue this year, and maybe we can add some power to making some strides with this.

Kanary

[Lars39]

20. Random thoughts.....

A start would be to nail down pertinent stats, so the RW points are easily debunked. We shouldn't be having to persuade *progressives* on a progressive board that healthcare for everyone is do-able.

Enough info gathered and we could begin to try to steer the doctors and nurses we come in contact with to the facts. Handouts in waiting rooms seem do-able.

[Kanary]

21. "We shouldn't be having to persuade *progressives* on a progressive board

that healthcare for everyone is do-able. "

BRAVO!! :toast: Where's that danged "applaud" emoticon when you need it? :)

I agree completely, and I'm willing to do my share of the research for those "stats". Who else is in for this?

I *like* handouts in waiting rooms! Fine idea!

There are more possibilities, too, and I sure hope others are ready for this!

Thanks for your post!

Kanary

[Lars39]

23. You're welcome, Kanary.

I'm no great shakes in the research dept, but I can hunt thru old threads.I'm ashamed to say I haven't delved too deeply into the Health forum, but I've snagged every thread I've come across in GD and LBN on the subject of healthcare. I envision a fact-filled healthcare thread on the order of what others have done with the PNAC Archives. A thread with the facts laid out and documented so that everyone can be educated on the subject. A thread like that doesn't lie dormant; it sprouts seeds all over the place. :)

[prolesunited]

26. Sounds like a great idea

Who wants to start it and help keep the ball rolling?

I think the first step is to truly document how severe the problem is. Although we are aware of the stats, I really don't think the average person is aware of how severe the crisis truly is.

Just some random thoughts on stats that would be helpful, all documented with links of course.

Number of people without health insurance and demographic info
Increase in premiums
Shifting burden from employer to employee
Cost of prescription drugs
Reductions in state assistance

[Kanary]

27. OK, let's go with it!

Lars has apparently kept a great many threads here bookmarked, so that's a great place to begin.

I was hoping that some who have posted on this issue before would have shown up by now, but they seem to be MIA, so we can contact them.

I'm just interested in taking action, so however it's organized is OK with me, as long as the *really* poor are included. You list sounds like a fine starting point. Do you have any links from outside DU for any of those topics?

Lars, are you OK with pulling up your bookmarked threads? Or, would you like for me to start with what I have? I don't have as many as you, but I can start there.

Once we've retrieved the info, where do we put it, or post it?

Kanary

[Cleita]

31. Hey Kanary. Great idea.

We should set up a Yahoo board on it for those who are interested, kind of like the Recall Arnold board that many CA DU'ers have set up. It's not to replace DU of course but to get together everyone who is interested in this issue.

[Kanary]

33. Glad to see you made it here, Cleita!

As I said, I'm OK with however folks want to continue with this, with the caveat that we make sure to include the *very* poor in our discussions, and that it's as accessible as possible.

I have had some problems getting onto yahoo anymore, so I would need help with that. Also, you said "board", and I don't know if you actually meant a message board, or a mail list. The problem I would have with a message board is repeatedly getting mired in the same objections that get brought up over and over again. In order to take any *real* action, we need to get past that point.

What about a seperate area here at DU? Could/should we ask for that?

I hope Lars and prolesunited with chime in here.......

Let's get something off the ground with this......

Kanary

[prolesunited]

36. Sorry, just tied up with some things

For convenience sake, I would prefer to keep it here. My thought would be to start a primary thread in the Health/Education/Social Policy Forum and then post calls for information in GD with a link to that thread.

Those forums move more slowly and it will stay at the top of the page there for awhile and get the eyeballs of those specifically interested in that issue. The linked posts in GD will help draw interest.

For example, request one specific type of information that will help create the big picture — personal stories, or links to the pharmaceutical industry, or articles on premium increases — that can be added to the permanent thread in that forum.

What do you think?

[Kanary]

37. That, at least, is a start

I have PM'd Lars, so I hope he will soon join us, and contribute what he has, which, apparently, is considerable.

Do you want me to PM some of the others who have shared considerable info in the past?

If you go ahead and start the thread in that forum, how can we keep in organized as to specific topics within this health discussion, so that we don't end up with a jumble?

I'm ready. :)

Kanary

[Kanary]

41. Lars is already hard at work........ digging up the past DU threads!

What a guy! :hug:

So, soon we will have mountains of info, and need to figure out how we want to categorize it and store it.

I'm excited......

One thing occurs to me........ I know there are some local (like state) organizations already working on the issue of Universal Single Payer Health Care. I had one for Colorado, but don't know if I can find it again. Any ideas how we can find where these various organizations already are existing? I know there's the national one for the physicians, but there doesn't seem to be any way to get much info there unless you're a physician.

We're off to the races..... :)

Kanary

[anarchy1999]

43. Okay Kanary, Calimary and Jen6, here's is a perfectly wonderful

opportunity. Just within the last 24 hours one of the headlines on CNN and other places has been, health care is really worse than 40 million uninsured, twice as much and Texas ranks at the very top with something like 45% with no coverage! One of the richest states in the nation and we rank number one in lack of health care and we have no state income tax!

Shall we ladies?...........

It is off to the races, I'm in, love to gamble. How many years have all of these politicians of ours been talking about "health care" (while they have the luxury of having the best health care policies in the world and we (their employers, the taxpayers) pay for it along with their $100,000+ per year retirement pensions)? As long as I've been able to vote, and that is way too long. (I voted for Ford, please forgive me, I was only 18 and bought the hype!)

Who are the ones to contact first? The media or our "CongressCritters"?

[Lars39]

45. Here's a huge contact list that Calimary made.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1413842

[anarchy1999]

49. Lars39, I'm so sorry, I failed to give you kudos as well! Please forgive

and nice to have you here.

[Lars39]

56. No problem!

I sent you some info via your mailbox. :)

[Lars39]

44. Is this the group?

Check your mailbox, too. :)

http://www.healthcareforallcolorado.org/index.php?p=5

[Kanary]

50. That may be it, Lars!

Although I had an email addy to an actual person before..... I'll try to find it.

Can we find organizations in other states?

WE need to start collecting all this, and posting it....... guess HEalth Forum is a good place to start.

Wanna start the thread there? :)

You're really on top of this..... would sure hate to tangle with you. :hi:

Let me know when you have the thread up and running......

Wheeee, this is exciting!

Kanary

[Cleita]

28. Well, it's time to stop the RW talking points on this issue.

There are threads even here at DU that bring up the things the insurance and other health care for profit providers want you to believe and scare you about.

I, too, am a family member who is denying myself medication I need so that my husband, who is far worse off than I am, can have the care he needs, and there will be long term consequences for me, that shouldn't have to be if we had NHC.

I have health insurance, which I have to pay into for every month, with a high deductible, co-pays and no prescription drug coverage. I can't afford to meet the deductible on our income, so essentially I have a health plan, but no health care. The money I pay into the premium could help me, but I would have to drop my insurance so with our present system, I am caught up in Catch-22.

Good article. Thanks for posting. The writer has put together information from different sources into a coherent whole.

[prolesunited]

29. Is your doctor aware

of the fact that you aren't taking your meds?

I've had some very interesting talks with my doctor about this issue. He is VERY committed to his patients. He actively solicits visits from pharmaceutical reps. Some days, I'll see two or three in just the short time I'm there.

What he does his stockpile free samples and intro packets and when somebody can't afford something, he gives them the samples. They used to always try to give me free stuff, but told them I didn't want it so someone else whose needs were greater could have it.

They recently changed my prescription coverage to a tiered formulary so I pay $25 for most things, but I can afford it.

Please check to see if you can get any help from your doctor. Some drug companies also have plans. It's easy to convince yourself now that the long-term damage won't be so bad, but I watched my mom go through several years of hell due to diabetic complications because she didn't manage it correctly.

Please try to find a way. :hug:

[Cleita]

30. Yes, she is and she refused to prescribe more unless I

take a barrage of tests I can't afford. I will be able to get Medicare next year, providing Mr. Bush doesn't gut it, and then that should get me back on track, but the bone thinning from my Osteosporosis may be irreversible.

This is the problem, our health system doesn't cover the people who need health care. I mean I had great health insurance all my working years when I didn't need it. I even did COBRA when I retired, but when I actually started to use my health insurance, my rates incrementally started to skyrocket, so I had to downsize my plan to what I could afford out of my pocket.

Now I am down to a bare bones catastrophic plan that basically amounts to no health care and it costs me almost $200 a month. Don't suggest that I change doctors. She is still one of the few doctors in my area that takes my type of insurance. Most of them demand cash up front. They refuse to accept most of the HMO and PPD coverage available. Oh, I don't qualify for Medicaid. Too many assets, yet if we didn't have the income from those assets, we would be homeless.

[linazelle]

32. I'm starting a new job this week, with a group of others

Several of the people have taken downgrades in pay as much as 30% just to get a job that pays benefits. The killing part is, one of the guys is a staunch Repug.

[Commendatori]

40. We'll never see it - consider it a carrot on a stick

Regardless of what I hear from either side, I don't believe that either side (especially Repugs) is interested in setting up a national health care system. It's easier to promise it when pandering for votes, but even in 1993 there was no chance.

If politicians actually solved problems instead of putting bandaids on them (like Bush's bullshit Medicare expansion), they'd have nothing to run on.

Just as Major League Baseball teases Washington DC in their efforts to extort statium deals from places like Tampa Bay, politicians use health care to garner votes. None of us will live long enough to see health care for all.

[Kanary]

42. You're right...... if we give up, nothing will ever happen......

:shrug:

[JayS]

46. I actually got some Republicans to agree on a health plan...

...with me the other day so sometimes pigs do fly. The big hangup we had was over citizenship.

[Kanary]

55. Yes, it happens....... Thanks for making those pigs fly! ^_^

Arming ourselves with the salient FACTS, and being prepared to debunk the myths goes a long way towards reaching our goal.

That's one of the reasons why we're trying to gather all this info, and make it easily accessible.

Thanks for your efforts!

Kanary

[JayS]

58. Just remember that flying pigs make.....messes. Keep an...

...umbrella handy! :)

The ironic thing is, what we worked out was most likely not all that expensive or even that hard of a sell.

[Kanary]

59. Umbrella at the ready! ^_^

Care to share the details of "what you worked out"? Sounds intriguing!

Kanary

[JayS]

63. In an extremely condensed nutshell....

The country provides a basic insurance card that you can use at the doctor of your choice. All the hodge podge programs that we have today get reduced or eliminated, saving several boatloads of money. Note that the words national or socialized cannot be used anywhere or kiss the deal goodbye. Basic Insurance Plan is a good enough name.

*Employees with company health insurance can have the basic card if they want it but many employers will want to offer something "slick" to attract workers. Small fee involved to get the basic card. Various copays and deductables.

*Employees without company insurance will get the basic card. Small fee involved to get the basic card. Various copays and deductables.

*All others get the basic card. Fees based on a sliding scale from free to full fee based on ability to pay. Various copays and deductables, based on ability to pay.

*Prescription medicines with copay, based on ability to pay. Government to act as "power buyer" to get lower costs on drugs, even drugs from Canada.

*Program is available to all U.S. citizens and legal resident aliens, including "green card" workers while they are in the country. Illegal aliens can apply for a "green card" to be covered. The immigrants that only want to come here for a temporary job can get a "green card" and be covered. This will mean a change in immigration law also but less aliens dying in the Texas heat in the back of an abandoned tractor trailer rig.

There was a lot more to it but that is a good summary.

[Commendatori]

48. Geez. I'm not recommending that we give up, but

I AM saying is that no matter what the polls show, politicians won't act on it in accordance with what the public wants - especially on an issue like this where actually solving the problem is counterproductive for them.

As an example, an overwhelming majority of the public wants a simpler tax system, and you can count me among them. Figure the odds that it will happen in our lifetime.

[Cleita]

51. We haven't become the big angry demographic yet that

politicians do pay attention to. It's time to start. This time though we will be prepared to roll up the astroturf as soon as the opposition starts to lay it down.

[Kanary]

53. I just can't focus now on what "won't work"

A lot that has gone on in the past is doomed because there weren't concerted efforts.

Look what the Reich Wing has done, by forging ahead full steam.

So, look up further and see what we're getting going here.

Join us and add to the info and efforts.

Or, figure it's a lost cause and let it go at that.

I know there are HUGE hurdles, but........ we gotta start somewhere, and I'm just not willing yet to throw in the towel. Others can throw that towel as far as they wish if they want....... it just isn't where I am at this point.

Kanary, kinda nauseous, picturing a sweaty, sloppy towel being thrown around.. :)

[Centre_Left]

62. One thing that would help...

...would be to reduce the power of the American Medical Association. The restrictions its has placed on medical schools has drastically lowered the supply of doctors even as the population has skyrocketed. The problem is so bad that some hospitals are seriously considering replacing actual doctors with a robot with a TV-screen head on which live video of your doctor would appear!

[prolesunited]

65. Not familiar with what you are talking about

What restrictions?

Robots with TV screen heads? Surely that was a joke.

Links please. :-)

[Centre_Left]

66. I shit you not...

Here is the link to the story about the robot-doctors.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4946229/

The patients seem to like it, but I would throw a fit if I saw this hideous thing ambling into my hospital room.

As for the restrictions posed by the AMA on medical schools, just read this classic history of American medicine:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465079350/qid=1087547113/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-2448904-5261535?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Starr notes that since, since the AMA's creation of the Council of Medical Education a century ago, the U.S. population (75 million in 1900, 288 million in 2002) has increased in size by 284%, yet the number of medical schools has declined by 26% to 123.

[DWolper]

67. Long Term Care

The stat you cite is right:
"Of the increasing number of bankruptcy filings, 50 percent involve health care issues"

Many of the bankruptcies are are due to families being unable to pay for long term care for their aged loved ones. To push for Universal Health Care is a moral duty. It is a MUST!

[Karenina]

68. HALLO DWolper!!!

WELCOME TO DU!!! :toast:

It's such an obvious and simple connection...

I live in a country where the "evil" of "socialized medicine" translates into the weakest in the society having access to care. It is a GOOD thing.