Dick Whorris & David Whorowitz double-team Dean

[stickdog]

from: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8846

McGovern II
By Dick Morris
FrontPageMagazine.com | July 10, 2003

Dr. Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor now rallying liberals in the nation's Democratic primaries, is forcing the party into a potentially lethal march to the left.

Animating the Dean surge are groups favoring gay marriage and those opposing further military action against other terror-sponsoring or -harboring nations - formidable forces pushing the Democrats away from the country's center.

(snip)

The signer of the civil union (aka gay marriage) law and a resolute pacifist in the face of terrorism, Dean will drive the rest of the Democratic field to the left as they struggle to match his program and rhetoric. He may bring about a new McGovernization of the Democratic Party. (My apologies to George McGovern, who led the national battle to reform the nominating process and, in doing so, contributed a singular service to us all).

(snip)

And if somebody doesn't stop Howard Dean, he and his ideas will be permanent plagues on the Democratic Party, forcing nominees to toe a line that so offends traditional values as to make its candidates unelectable. Just as the Christian right created a gender gap by its opposition to abortion, so Dean will trigger a values gap that will send moderate voters flocking in droves to the Republicans.

[dsc]

1. That toe sucking toad

lecturing anyone on a values gap is a hoot. If he succeeds I will take up a second career as an avatar of healthy living.

[LoZoccolo]

36. Why do I keep hearing about toes...

...when people talk about this guy?

[Qutzupalotl]

44. Apparently that's what Dick Morris likes to do

with prostitutes.

[LuminousX]

2. I love

how all these non-Democrats are so concerned about how the Democratic Party is being led and what direction it is going. Maybe they can fax a memo and outline exactly what positions we need to take to win. Oh wait, then the Democratic Party would just be the GOP.

No thanks, been there, done that.

[OrdinaryTa]

3. A Stampede to the GOP

Dean will trigger a values gap that will send moderate voters flocking in droves to the Republicans

Bring it on.

[CMT]

4. if Dick Morris is opposed to Dean then I know we are doing something right

in my opinion Dick Morris is one of the most unethical men in politics who has no scruples and no personal convictions. To have this piece of feces opposing Dean is something Dean should wear as a badge of honor.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Well, maybe he shouldn't

wear it.....

[Bandit]

5. "toe a line that so offends traditional values"

Him and toes are quite a well known topic and it doesn't speak well for traditional values. Kind of like Bennett and his Gambling. The people they get to write this tripe is fascinating.

[DarienComp]

6. Unbelievable.

Lie after lie after lie. Dean is a far-left liberal. Dean is for gay marriage. Dean will lose the center.

I know we "Deanie-Babies" get a lot of flack for rushing to stridently defend our man-- but can you blame us? We keep hearing the same nonsense over and over again!

[ProfessorPlum]

7. It is just redundant

to note that of course Morris is only knocking down strawmen here. I mean, Dean is a "resolute pacifist"? Morris stubbornly refuses to understand Dean's (and the pre-war Kerry's) position, which is: what Bush has done is illegal madness.

This tires me out. These guys are fighting imaginary foes. It's like he's writing a column against Meathead from all in the family.

1. the shitheads seem scared of Dean.

2. When I worry about what Dick Morris thinks is "good" for the Democratic party, you'll know I've lost the capacity for all rational thought.

[LoZoccolo]

39. Hahahaha "Meathead"!

Hey Meathead was kinda cool! I wonder when we'll have a Meathead avatar to use on DU.

[poskonig]

8. Dean is actually pretty close to the center.

I don't think stating the obvious, that Iraq is a monster fuck-up, makes someone an extreme liberal.

[justicebuilder]

9. Dean's a resolute pacifist?

Man, this guy is a moron.

jb

[seeker4ever]

10. Dean the cause of a difference between the parties?!!!

Thank friggin' god!

[TheUnionDemocrat]

11. Dick Morris is certainly a DICK, but...

He's ABSOLUTELY right with the following statement...

No candidate can win a presidential race advocating gay marriage and opposing the military action in Iraq.


Actually, I would go a bit further and say any candidate who advocates these two issues will lose all 50 states PLUS the District of Columbia. And more than likely create a filibuster-proof repuke senate.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. this is also a straw man argument

Dean doesn't advocate gay marriage, only civil unions so that gay couple can have the same rights under the law as straight couples. It is an issue of fairness, not gay vs. straight.

And opposing the military action in Iraq is a huge winner of an argument. The military action in Iraq is the worst tragedy to be foisted upon our country since Vietnam. If someone can point this out, loudly and clearly, people will realize they are right.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

13. Straw man??

That word gets thrown around like cafetti.

Sorry.... A so-called "Civil Union" between gays is basically gay marriage. And anyone who opposes the war in Iraq will get beaten badly in a national election. Combine the two and it's a slaughter.

[CMT]

14. public attitudes are changing

let Bush and company attack Dean on civil unions--let Dean defend it eloquently as a matter of standing up for the civil rights of all people--regardless of race, sexual orientation, or religion. Then have Dean ask Bush, "why are you trying to divide this country. I support a new tone in Washington--you said you did in 2000 but it is apparent you don't". Then for the cherry on the cake ask VP Cheney if he supports "equal rights for his daughter".

As for Iraq, sorry but that is going to be an issue as people will tire of the almost daily killing, the chaos, and the four BILLION dollars being spent monthly of "our hard earned tax dollars--which could be going to providing health insurance or making sure everyone gets an opportunity to go to college."

[TheUnionDemocrat]

22. Dead people...

...don't care about health insurance or the opportunity to go to college. (And by the way...ANYONE can get into, and afford a state university...I'm living proof...But that's for another thread, I think).

The war in Iraq is going to reshuffle the deck in the middle east...Bring Democratic forms of government to the middle east at long last. It's already helping to boost insurgents in Iran. The hate-filled, hate-preaching and terrorism promoting mullahs and clerics MUST be eliminated if America and Americans are ever to be safe (Safer, actually). Freemom MUST take over. Only then will all young muslims be taught to love democracy rather than hate the infidels.


And whatever you choose to call it, gay marriage or civil union, is a loser on the national level. A BIG loser.

[poskonig]

23. I'm convinced!

"And whatever you choose to call it, gay marriage or civil union, is a loser on the national level. A BIG loser."

The overwhelming amount of evidence and reasoning presented here to support this claim has changed my mind. </SARCASM>

[TheUnionDemocrat]

24. You're welome to disagree.

I just hope my opinion doesn't HAVE to be proven.

[ProfessorPlum]

26. Uh . . .

I think that the war in Iraq will bring water and peace, love, and joy to the middle east. This war is the beginning of all things good. Everyone will see that the killing was really justified and a source of a never-ending spring of democracy and respect for fellow humans.

On the other hand, maybe Bush and his junta are not the best choice for bringing Democracy anywhere, especially at the end of a gun, especially after they did their damnedest to kill it in this country. Ya think?

[Eloriel]

35. Bring Democratic forms of govt to Iraq -- at the point of a gun!

Yeah, that'll work. Any day now. I can just feel it.

The war in Iraq is going to reshuffle the deck in the middle east...Bring Democratic forms of government to the middle east at long last.

And then what did you dream?

Eloriel

[TheUnionDemocrat]

40. Yes.

Just like the brave people who brought a Democratic form of government to America at the point of a gun.

Of course I know you hate such things (And guns) so I'm sure you can't understand.

Here's a hint..

People naturally crave freedom...Even if their leaders won't allow it. You and I are fortunate enough to have had people fight for our freedom long before our time. Now, brave Americans are fighting for freedom loving Arabs and muslims...And we'll ALL benefit in the end.

[ProfessorPlum]

42. somebody's

got some real heavy, dark blinders on.

One possible distinction between the US, where people were fighting for their own self-governance, and were handed a democracy by a group of very wise and radical thinkers, and Iraq where the people were fighting to keep foreign invaders out, is that Americans didn't have our democracy forced on us.

But I think you know that. Your posts seem a little too-bad-to-be-true, knowwhaddimean?

[TheUnionDemocrat]

45. You're trying to tell me...

...that the Iraqi people PREFERRED living under Saddam Hussein's tyrany???


But I think you know that's not true. Your posts seem a little too-bad-to-be-true, knowwhaddimean?

[Classical_Liberal]

49. They may not have liked Saddam, but if democracy is the sure replacement

Why aren't we leaving. Maybe it is because the people will chose Iranian style democracy?

[Classical_Liberal]

48. The Iranian government is democratically elected

and they chose islamic fundamentlism, and will be till they choose otherwise. That is what will be in Iraq presuming we ever leave.

[Classical_Liberal]

47. They have been protesting in Iran for 3 or 4 yrs now

It has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. Salon has done several articles on it. It will reshuffle the deck, but it will be years till we be able to pull out, and if they are democracies at all they will be islamic ones, just like Iran. It also wont' do anything to stop Al Qaeda, since Al Qaeda didn't like us because we occupied an Arab country. Occupying alot more Arab countries for years on end will make the problem worse.

[Bandit]

15. You are sooo wise

And you base this wisdom on ????? People who proclaim with such certitude the future amaze me. Have you always been correct in every detail? You may be correct and then again you may not but for you to claim with such a degree of certainty is IMHO very pompous.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

25. Thank you.

I'm glad we agree on my wisdom. :)

[Le Taz Hot]

27. I sincerely wish you would spend

half the energy on supporting your OWN candidate instead invading EVERY goddamned Dean thread with the same old bullshit accusations that have been disproven over and over and over and over . . . .

Here's a dollar. Buy a goddamned life!

[TheUnionDemocrat]

28. "Every" Dean thread?

I believe that's a bit of a stretch, don't you?

And if you don't mind, I'll let you keep your dollar. Maybe you can buy a little tolerance with it.

[Le Taz Hot]

30. Oh, please

I'm an extremely temperate and tolerent person. But even the most temperate and tolerent person can be pushed too far. I don't have a history of disruptive posts. I don't have a history of engaging in flamewars. I don't have a history of slamming other candidates. If you doubt those statements, look at my post history. Enough is enough already!

The SAME people posting the same bullshit over and over and over again in virtually every Dean thread. Detractor points have been countered time and time and time again and yet you guys continue to post the same bullshit. You're not looking for answers, you're not looking for clarification, you're looking to disrupt. Its amazing that the VAST majority of Dean supporters (as in 99.9%) on this board can read other candidate threads and not feel the need to trash the other candidates and yet we are subjected to the same bullshit time and time again, posted by the same people who have absolutely NOTHING to contribute.

Your continual, non-stop disrupting behavior serves no purpose. It's not pulling anyone over to your candidate -- whoever that may be. It merely highlights your immature behavior and complete lack of a life. Grow the fuck up!

[TheUnionDemocrat]

31. Two things...

1) I agree with the points Dick Morris made in this POSTED FREAKING ARTICLE, so I commented as such.

Deal with it.

2) 99% of Dean supporters? I guess it's safe to assume that this 99% you speak of have never uttered the words "Holy Joe"?

Or more likely, you're making at least a few of this "99%" out to be hypocrites???


And by the way...

I'll "Grow the fuck up" just as soon as I don't see you Dean supporters steering my party down the road to an electoral landslide defeat of MYTHIC proportions.

Deal with THAT too.

[ProfessorPlum]

32. how about

Holy Quisling Joe?

[dsc]

34. This particular Dean supporter

has repeatedly defended Lieberman. Don't believe me ask a Lieberman opponent of your choosing. Or better yet when DU1 threads can be looked at again look there. I was defending Lieberman on the very morning of the day DU2 was launched.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

41. Well...

You're ONE of this 99% he speaks of. :)

Seriously...You're to be commended. Thank you.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

50. Here's one of the 1%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=19543&mesg_id=19543&page=#19609

[poskonig]

16. 300 more American soldiers will be dead by this time next year.

Dean took the risk challenging Bush on Iraq, and not only was correct, but is in good position to wreck destruction on the Rove machine. Other candidates cannot, given their previous stances, attack Bush on his only issue, foreign policy.

[ProfessorPlum]

19. straw man

means you set up a fake argument with the purpose of knocking it down.

Morris deliberately mis-states Dean's position as supporting "gay marriage", then says that is a bad position. That is a strawman argument.

Morris deliberately mis-states Dean's position as a "pacifist", then smears him with that term. That is a strawman argument.

Marriage in this country is a weird amphibious mix of civil and religious rights and responsibilities. Dean is in favor of extending the civil rights and responsibilities of choosing someone as your life's partner to all couples, regardless of gender make-up. It is not "marriage", though I personally don't know what the hell the problem would be with that, but the religious part of the equation would have to also get up to speed.

And opposing the war in Iraq is a bad position only if you let the Republicans out-PR you about it. We are less safe. Our soldiers are dying. The Iraqis don't want us there. It is costing us a fortune. If there were WMD, we cannot locate them now. We weakened our alliances. We weakened NATO and the UN. We committed acts illegal by international law. We have probably committed war crimes.

The Repubs can try to dress the war up, but putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it beautiful. Democratic opposition to the war just needs a good, glitzy PR treatment, and people will be begging to vote out the idiot who rushed us into this quagmire.

[DrGonzoLives]

20. Marriage is a religious ceremony, not a government institution

Unfortunately, you have bought into the right-wing spin that insists that they are one and the same, as if denying people basic human rights based on who they want to spend their lives with is basis enough.

It seems to me that you are arguing that a politician should just choose his positions by what is popular at the time. Is that correct?

[Eloriel]

38. He's bought into a LOT of rightwing and/or DLC spin

And yes, that's one of them.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

33. With all due respect

where were you when all the "Dean is a craven coward who really didn't do anything for gays" threads were happening. I love how people are using two utterly contradictory arguments to trash Dean. Either A Dean is a political coward on this issue or B he is taking a far left extremist position that will single handedly cost us the election. They can't both be true.

[Quahog]

17. That's OK, Dean advocates neither

Dean signed a bill presented to him by the VT legislature allowing same-sex couples to have the same civil rights under VT law as hetero couples. This has absolutely nothing to do with marriage, and everything to do with civil rights and equal protection under the law.

Dean does not "oppose military action in Iraq," in fact, he is calling for a significant increase in troops (to come from UN nations) to clean up the mess over there. He was against the illegal unilateral invasion of a sovereign nation based on unproved allegations of weapons programs, and he was right. Now that we made that ungodly, immoral mess over there, he thinks we owe it to the Iraqis to give them their lives back. I agree.

I guess I must be a flaming liberal whacko too!

[tinnypriv]

43. Question

Granted, I don't venture out of FA/NS that much, but I really don't get something. Is it literally possible for somebody like yourself to hold such views and BE a democrat?

You think opposing embarking on large-scale international violence based on outright fabrications and LIES is a bad thing.

You think "gay marriage"/civil unions are a bad thing.

You seem to believe the moronic Wolfowitz idea of a Democracy Domino in the Middle East.

I don't know much about the US political scene (so hey, maybe I'm wrong), but in 99% of the world, wouldn't holding those views make you a reactionary right-wing hawk?

If holding those views is what it takes to get the democracts elected, colour me (like the rest of the planet) ****-scared.

[SideshowScott]

29. People still listen to Morris???

I cant belive the guy still has a carrer...I getting pretty sick of the people who hate democrats AND pander to the right wing then thinks they know what best for the democrats..Morris still is trying to get back at clinton and the dems for telling his toe sucking self to get lost. It amazes me that the right wing embraces Morris then will trash clinton for the lwinsky matter...

[northernsoul]

37. where's the Whorowitz part?

Dean's definitely doing something right if he's got that stark, raving loony tune screaming about him.
;-)

[dsc]

46. The magazing from which the article came

is Horowitz'