Kucinich is pro-life?---- ?????what????

[IranianDemocrat]

One of my freeper friends I was talking to just told me that Kucinich is pro-life, is this true?

[molly]

1. Before he said he was running for president he was

I think he switched his stance.

[Ladyhawk]

11. I don't trust people who switch their stance for convenience.

I'll probably get blasted, but I am pro-life to a point. I have a hard time believing a blastula is a human being, but once the embryo has a nervous system and can feel pain, I feel there are strong moral arguments against abortion.

The religious right, however, are a bunch of hypocrites. They only care about the child until it is born, then they don't want to have anything to do with it. Not only that, but they block sex education at every opportunity. Oh goody! Let's put young women into a position where they must either sacrifice part of their future or have an abortion. Makes perfect sense...not!

A more moral approach would be to saturate the public with sex education, don't you think? The religious right is so worried about "dirty words" and sex education that they are part of the problem.

I live with the religious right. I know what they think. Their compassion for human life stops as soon as the baby is born.

Fucking morons.

[LouKYDem]

24. Actually...

I agree with you. While I agree with pretty much everything that the Democratic party has to say, I'm personally against abortion. However, I don't vote for or against people based upon what their feelings on abortion. I sometimes feel ashamed to say that I'm pro-life, because it makes me seem immediately aligned with the religious right, a group which is a danger to our country (in my opinion). The problem with all conservative pro-life arguments is that they use the bible to argue for abortion... a book which is not supposed to dictate public policy. But anyway, since abortion isn't an important issue to me, I'll continue voting for the good candidates (mysteriously they are all liberals..) and not worry about this one little minor issue.

By the way, I believe that we should be teaching prevention more often.. I mean offering young people condoms and other forms of birth control, along with telling them that it is okay to say no, and teaching them what pregnancy is REALLY like... the conservatives use an approach that is so simplistic that it is a flat out failure!

EDIT: Let me add to this (before I get flamed, lol) that I am against any sort of legislation banning abortion... good thing I'm not running for public office, lol.

[DemBones DemBones]

87. Part of the reason he started reconsidering his position was

his increasing disappointment in the attitudes of other "pro-lifers" who cared about the child, but not the mother. I"m sure he was also painfully aware how many who oppose abortion also support capital punishment and war.

He came to the conclusion that it must be legal for women to choose abortion if women are to have equal rights.

And he wants increased education and availability of contraception, and financial help for pregnant women who choose to have their babies but need some help supporting them.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hamlette]

49. Everyone is pro-life

To say otherwise is incredibly cold. Havaing an abortion is a difficult choice.

And it is nobody's business but mine.

[calimary]

111. You couldn't be more correct!

I second that. My daughter would "third" it. Followed by every woman I know who demands the last word on her own body and a MOST intimate, personal, AND PRIVATE decision of conscience.

[Warpy]

56. He's got a long and ugly voting history

...as a fetus fetishist, voting for every antiwoman, restrictive law that came along.

To say I don't trust his recent conversion to the side of choice is putting it mildly.

[goobergunch]

2. It was true...

he has switched positions over the past year.

[Maple]

3. Or says

he's switched positions

[IranianDemocrat]

4. How can you just "switch your stance"?

Unless the issue wasn't very important to him in the first place.

[GOPisEvil]

5. Well...switched position might be a little strong...

Not sure about what he thinks personally, but as for federal judges, etc., he has stated that he will not look for the overturn of Roe V. Wade, and will protect the rights of women to choose.

That's what he says...it bothers me somewhat too. But then, I'm not the world's biggest abortion fan, although I would fight to the death to protect woman's right to choose...

[nayt]

6. seriously

unless you believe its murder, why would you be prolife? and if you seriously believe its murder, how could you just switch your position?

[molly]

8. He did believe it was murder

[HFishbine]

38. Shades of gray

...one of those things progressives are supposed to be good at. It doesn't have to be a black or white choice. Some may think it's not murder, but that it's not right either. And some also think that some things can be immoral and still be legal.

Does a woman have a right to control her own reproductive abilities? Yes. Is it murder when she has an abortion. No? Is it morally odious to destroy an organism that can feel pain and could develop into a human being. Yes. Have I ever done anything that was morally repugnant but legal. Yes. Is that any of your business? No.

[redeye]

7. Very easy

You stop voting for what you think and become an opportunist while still touting yourself as being pricnipled.

[IranianDemocrat]

10. O so that's how you do it!

So politicians AREN'T always ethical! WOW!

[roughsatori]

14. Some people do think abortion is a sin

I've known people who have changed. They still think it is a sin, but that it is up to God to judge, and it is your choice. I guess they could be called Libertarian Christians.

I also have a Buddhist friend who has made the same change.

I am suspicious when it is a politician changing. I always think they do it in response to polls or the corporations funding them.

[REP]

113. Some People Do Think Homosexuality is a Sin As Well

And homosexuality is mentioned in the bible; abortion is not.

Religion has no place in politics.

[roughsatori]

137. I do not even believe in the concept of sin

I am discussing the reasons others may change. I have always had the same view, pro-choice.And there are people who think homosexuality is a sin but they are for full equal rights under that law. Not all Christians are about forcing others to live like them.

It is the same, think that abortion is a sin, but others have the right to have one. Think that homosexuality is a sin, but others have a legal right to do it.

[orangecoloredapple]

9. How many times does this have to be said!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kucinich is a Catholic. As such, he personally believes that once conception occurs, that's it. Again - note "personally."

He also, unlike the current resident in the big house, believes in the Constitution, and in the right for others to have disparate views.

Just because he doesn't personally believe in it doesn't mean he would take that right away from those that do. He is a true liberal - has his beliefs, but doesn't ram them down peoples throats. He has stated unequivicably that he would not allow R v W to be overturned. How much more can a person say? He's an honest politician with many progressive views.

Please - have some thought about this and not just a knee-jerk reaction.

[cherryperry]

16. Yes; why do so many DUers look

for a reason to bash Kucinich? It is rather disconcerting!

:shrug: :kick:

[Walt Starr]

18. "personally" is not what the voting record says

He voted to legislate choice control all the way up to the point that he decided to run for the Democratic nomination.

Please, try to be straightforward about the record. The record Dennis Kucinich has established in his voting patterns is VERY anti-choice,m regardless of his stance now.

[DemBones DemBones]

89. He did NOT vote pro-life right up until he changed his position.

He abstained from abortion-related votes for about two years before he came to a decision and changed his position.

[AnAmerican]

12. Dennis believes abortion should be rare

He also believes it is a basic right of women to be able to choose.

He has stated he does not agree with the criminalization of abortion,
which is where the rightwing would like to end up.

He will work towards limiting the NEED for abortions while maintaining the law regarding abortion.

He seeks to bridge the divide in the country over abortion by using education, introducing a "living wage", and other measures which will limit the need for abortions.

In effect, he has not changed his stance, he is merely using other means that outlawing it to impact the number of abortions performed.

[orangecoloredapple]

15. That is exactly right -

thank you. The most important sentence for those with the knee-jerk reactions is:

"In effect, he has not changed his stance, he is merely using other means that outlawing it to impact the number of abortions performed."

Nothing wrong with that, that I see. Let's make people's lives better so the option of abortion for economic or other reasons doesn't have to occur so often.

[roughsatori]

20. Thank you for explaining that

I won't even eat a fertilized egg from a chicken due to my belief that it is harming a sentient being. But I do think others should be allowed the choice. I even took a friend to an abortion clinic once. Her husband had to work. I went so I could bring her home. And I occasionally still feel guilty that I accompanied her. But I am pro-choice.

People on both side of this issue attack me.

[Walt Starr]

13. His voting record on abortion is the same as Henry Hyde's

He switched positions right after announcing his bid for the presidency.

Gore was pro-life until some point in the 80's when he switched.

George H.W. Bush was pro-choice until he joined the GOP ticket in '80.

[orangecoloredapple]

17. I do not agree with your statement

He did not switch his position. He clarified it. He would never vote to overturn R v W. He never had that position. Sure, one can bring up statistics relating to his votes in the past, but they were votes that he had to take due to his beliefs - they were sensible for the most part. The right-wingers took their little baby steps, and will hope to stomp on R v W in a next * term, but Kucinich would fight it every step of the way. One may not agree with all his positions, but let's get this much straight - he's honest, and I dare any intelligent, liberal thinking person to present a thorough critique of his ideas.

[Walt Starr]

19. Compare his voting record on abortion to Henry Hyde's

They are identical.

[orangecoloredapple]

22. I guess I'm thinking of the big picture

He believes abortions should remain legalized. He would not in any way seek to overturn R v W. His other ideas are, to a perfect fit, what I would state.

No one's perfect. I would bet JFK would have had a problem with this issue in 1960. Maybe Nixon would have won because of it. JFK initiated the beginnnings of many societal reforms that Johnson was forced to implement.

[DemBones DemBones]

82. Not true. Dennis Kucinich has abstained from voting on abortion

measures for about two years, Henry Hyde hasn't.

Dennis Kucinich announced in February that he had been rethinking his position for a long time and now supports a woman's right to choose abortion. Henry Hyde has not announced that he's changed his position and is now pro-choice.

Dennis Kucinich spoke *against* the partial birth abortion ban when it was considered in the House a couple of months back. Henry Hyde didn't speak against the ban.

Dennis Kucinich voted against the partial birth abortion ban. Henry Hyde voted for the ban.

You have to go back two years to find Dennis Kucinich and Henry Hyde voting the same way on this issue. Kucinich has changed his position and many women are satisfied that this is a sincere change. Kate Michaelman of NARAL is convinced that Dennis Kucinich is now sincerely pro-choice.

Moreover, Dennis Kucinich always supported a consistent pro-life ethic, being opposed to capital punishment and to war as well as to abortion. He still hopes to reduce the number of abortions by reducing the need for abortion, through financing education and availability of contraception and providing financial assistance to women who feel financial pressure to abort their pregnancy.

[AnAmerican]

21. Wrong

Dennis stopped voting on abortion related legislation almost two years ago because he sensed the effort towards criminalizing abortion.

In the latest vote to come to the floor in the House he voted pro-choice on the matter.

This what not opportunistic, this was a man seeing the administration and the rethugs in Congress move towards a point where Roe V Wade would be overturned. His feelings on women's rights caused him to decide to not stand by while the rightwing actively worked to achieve their goal.

Read some of his own words:

"Throughout my career, I have tried to work to reduce the need for abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education, birth control, and increased access to health care. I think that all of my colleagues would agree that we should work to prevent unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions."

<snip>

"In leading the nation toward this goal, we must preserve Constitutional rights. We must respect the freedom and equality of women. The best path for our country is not to escalate the divisiveness and political nature of this debate. Rather, it is to remember the principles of this nation and refrain from undermining the freedom of choice. We must respect the basic human dignity of women to make personal decisions."

http://www.kucinich.us/statements.htm#060403

[Walt Starr]

23. I don't trust his change of stance at all

Look at the record, VERY anti-choice. I consider his change of stance opportunistic and do not trust a word he says on the issue. Again, because of his established record.

This is my only sticking point with Kucinich too. I'd be behind him except for his record on abortion.

[AnAmerican]

26. That is your right

We have differing thoughts on the matter. Most people who I talk to do not have a problem with it.

I share his views. I wish there were NO abortions but I will defend a womans rights with every breath. Who am I to tell a woman she should not, or cannot (under penalty of law) have an abortion?

Lessen the reasons for abortion and you will lessen abortion. Outlaw it and you only force a return to the days of back-alley butchery.

Dennis earns my respect for looking at the whole picture, not going with a blind allegiance to either side of the issue.

[Tinoire]

51. Then Walt please read this & my hastily written & pasted post 36

IMO Kucinich is the most sincere candidate out there with a track record to prove everything. Abortion shouldn't even be an issue in politics but the Right has made it one- a false one. Why would we play their game? Why does this all boil down to abortion and can we trust a candidate's evolution and yet no talk about the death penalty which most liberals consider cruel, immoral and unacceptable? Kucinich has neither flip-flopped nor changed his personal beliefs- the only thing he's done, with the help of women around him is evolved to seeing it as a matter of CHOICE (the most important word in pro-Choice right?). He has consistently opposed and vigorously fought the criminalization of abortion which is a lot more than some supposedly "pro-choice" candidates have done.

In a recent interview on National Public Radio (NPR) Kucinich asserted that he now supports Roe vs. Wade. He said, “ No. But with the help of women in my life and women who I've had the opportunity to talk to over the years, I've seen how this really has become such a divisive and destructive issue. And I think that we can work to achieve a society which supports a woman's right to choose and we can do that within the context of working to make abortions less necessary. We also have to, through sex education and birth control try to create a culture which is life-affirming through prenatal care and postnatal care, child care and a living wage.”
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Frank_Kucinich.htm

If you want to examine records, here is his statement from June 2003 when took to the House floor to strongly oppose a ban on so-called "partial-birth abortions":

"Let's all be clear -- the bill before us is unconstitutional because it does not contain an exemption for the health of the woman who seeks to exercise her reproductive rights. There is no doubt about that. This is because the US Supreme Court has already ruled on very similar legislation in Stenberg v. Carhart. Opponents of the right to reproductive choice should know that.

"This bill likely will not prevent a single abortion. But it does defeat the rights of women.

"I believe that equal protection under the law and the right to privacy should be freedoms enjoyed by women as well as men. But women will not be equal to men if this constitutionally protected right is denied. This bill infringes on those rights for women, and that is why I will oppose it.

"Throughout my career, I have tried to work to reduce the need for abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education, birth control, and increased access to health care. I think that all of my colleagues would agree that we should work to prevent unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions. I will continue those efforts, but the bill that is before us today is the wrong way to do that.

"Advocates of this bill who say they stand in defense of life would be more believable if they worked to support families, with adequate child care funding, child tax credit relief for vulnerable families, and peace. For some, this debate is only about politics. The fact that other abortion legislation, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, has been advanced on the publicity of the Laci Peterson tragedy shows the unfortunate politicization of this debate.

"I do know, however, that many are sincere in their desire to reduce the need for abortions. In leading the nation toward this goal, we must preserve Constitutional rights. We must respect the freedom and equality of women.
The best path for our country is not to escalate the divisiveness and
political nature of this debate. Rather, it is to remember the principles of this nation and refrain from undermining the freedom of choice. We must respect the basic human dignity of women to make personal decisions."

http://www.lysistrataproject.org/KucinichforPresident.htm

[Walt Starr]

52. I can't trust a word he says now about abortion

He already spoke in his voting record. He's changed that stance. I do not trust him and consider him one of the most unprincipled candidates in the field right now because of that.

[Tinoire]

62. Walt! You sadden me

Death penalty? Is it ok to flip flop there?

War on Iraq? Is it ok to flip flop there?

Those are real flip flops...

But you know... I'm comfortable with his journey because I made it myself. If you're not, that's ok. This is why we each have our own individual vote and no one has the right to tell you how to vote.

Your conscience on the issues you see as the most important to society and America's well-being will guide you. There's a lot more to liberalism than did a candidate evolve on this one issue. If feminists are trusting him, why can't you? Because the anti-Kucinich camp is making this a big issue when it shouldn't be? Peace... One man, one vote and may the best man for America win.

My mother is an ardent feminist- impressively advanced for her time. Pro-life for herself and brought 8 balanced liberal into this world while pursuing an successful career in psychiatry- but pro-choice for society because today's society where women are still treated unequally MUST offer that choice. She just retired last month and is walking door to door for Kucinich. I love her and am so proud of her.

[Walt Starr]

67. I would trust him had he changed his stance 6 years ago

and built a solid pro-choice voting record.

I've learned from the past to never trust a politician's words in a campaign, always look at the record.

The Kucinich record on abortion is 180 degrees out of sync with his words now. That tells me he's lying right now because there is no record to defend what he says right now.

[Tinoire]

76. I won't ask you who you're backing (If you even know already)

but consider this-

You have candidates out there with no record whatsoever who will be able to cunningly craft whatever positions the majority wants to hear.

You have candidates out there whose record does not match up with what they say they would have done.

You have candidates out there trying to get you to forgive their pro-war votes and enabling-Bush pleading that they were mis-led (hell- if they were mis-led and we & Kucinich weren't, what the hell are they doing representing US?)

You have one candidate out there who's had a sterling record except on one mostly female-oriented issue where feminists are telling you he really did evolve because they gradually took care of that evolution and he has stood for every other issue out there that really enables women to make a real choice.

Just think about it Walt... Over the next few months... Observing them all carefully... One man, one vote... We will never all agree and vote the same but the important thing is that we talk... Peace

[dansolo]

64. That combined with his support for a flag burning amendment

Make me very uncomfortable. While I actually do cut him a little slack on the abortion issue because I realise that there is a religious aspect involved, I cannot see a flag burning amendment as being anything less than a trashing of the Constitution. These two issues seem to indicate that he isn't as concerned about restricting people's rights.

[Tinoire]

65. Flag Burning- Answering it simply from my heart

and from having seen Dennis in person.

As a 20 year vet, frankly I could care less if people use the flag as toilet paper and don't get riled up about the issue one way or another because to me it's just a ridiculous, manipulative piece of cloth that both the anti and pro FBA people are making too much of an issue over.

That said. It is still the flag of this country. A flag that was supposed to stand for good and decency. A flag for which many, whether right or wrong, went and shed their blood when asked. It used to be a flag that was respected and admired by down-trodden people all over the world who believed the words "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. ... "

Kucinich is the son of a poor family that spent many lights sleeping in their car and he loves his country and its people. He also loves the flag and all it was supposed to stand for. What he wants to do is restore the honor and dignity of that flag.

The second time I saw Kucinich was in a room full of REAL patriots- it was at the Veterans for Peace Conference in San Francisco Friday & Saturday.

The room was packed with men like S Brian Wilson, a Vietnam veteran who in 1987 had his legs cut off at Concord, California, when he lay down in front of a train to protest a Naval train carrying weapons headed for Central America.

Kate Berrigan, the daughter of Father Berrigan

Rachel Corrie's parents Craig and Cindy Corrie

Representatives from Military Families Speak out

and hundreds of vets, disabled vets who lost a limb or part of their life for that flag.

And they, they too, would like to see that flag honored.

In that light is how you look at Kucinichs vote of the FBA.

Blind rage is not an answer. The blind rage to destroy out of anger and pain are not the answer. The answer is to fix the problem and on that I agree with him 100%.

Peace

(also pasted from a previous post of mine)

[Dob Bole]

25. Better Get Used to "Switched Stances"

Clinton and Gore were both Pro-Life, as was Gephardt, until it became politically expedient to switch positions. I also believe that life begins at conception, or shortly thereafter. However, I have doubts about the effectiveness of "pro-life" laws.

[Walt Starr]

27. Kucinich voted to BAN dilation and extrraction

http://archive.aclu.org/vote-guide/H65.html

Given a 71% rating in Ohio Pro-Life voting guide:

http://www.wevoteprolife.com/ohio.htm

[DemBones DemBones]

95. In 2003 he argued against banning D & E, and he voted against

the ban.

I'm not naive enough to think political considerations played no role in his decision, but if he made the decision to support abortion rights for political reasons only, why didn't he make it earlier? He quit voting on abortion-related bills about two years ago, yet waited until February, just before announcing his run for the presidency, to announce his new position on abortion. That suggests to me that he was still struggling with his decision.

For those of us who believe life begins at conception but also believe in equality for women, abortion is a very difficult moral and ethical issue.

I want what Bill Clinton proposed -- abortion being safe, legal, and rare. There are many ways to make abortion rare and they don't have to include any punitive methods. Dennis Kucinich wants to reduce the numbers of abortions through helping women, which is what I have wanted for years.
It's a very progressive position., supportive of both women and unborn babies.

[hippywife]

28. Dennis fully admits

that he didn't always feel this way but, with the help of the women around him in his life, he has come to see that a woman's right of choice is intrinsic to her right to freedom as an individual. He still does not believe in abortion as an answer to unwanted pregnancy but he does uphold the Constitution and will not work to reverse Roe v. Wade but rather work on programs to make abortions less necessary through such efforts as expanding sex education.

The abortion issue is an important one but realize that it is brought up by the right wing time and again as the wedge issue in every campaign. Just as legalization of medical marijuana and gay marriage are quickly becoming new wedge issues in this one. The right wing loves to banter about these issues because they hope to see them cause division in the Democratic ranks.

Dennis is not a "politician." If he says it, I believe it because so does he. He definitely has the integrity to inspire that confidence in me and many, many others. He's the first candidate ever that I am willing to go out and really work for because he is real. Believe it! :)

[orangecoloredapple]

29. He is the first candidate in my long life

that I would, without hesitation, fight tooth and nail for. It's too bad that most accept that we have to accept less - the moderate touch. I believe in this man like I have not believed in any other politician in my life. Take a picture - you may not have another opportunity to see such a principled man running for the highest office in this country again.

[Walt Starr]

30. See, that's where I differ on Kucinich

I see the flip flop as an indication of a lack of principles.

:shrug:

edited for spelling, D'oh!

[hippywife]

31. When did

a lack of school administration come in to this?

Dennis is simply the most principled candidate out there. ;)

[orangecoloredapple]

32. I don't see a flip-flop

I see a principled man who drew the line at the Constitution. Please, read some of his words.

edit: extra i - dang that bothers me

[hippywife]

33. Amen!! n/t

[Walt Starr]

34. I read his voting record

That shows me an opportunistic un-principled polticitian who has dreams of grandeur.

[hippywife]

39. Meet the man

be around his campaign and then talk about grandeur. Grandeur is absolutely not what this man is about. Nothing slick or corporate-influenced about him at all. He takes the time to explain in detail when asked about any of his stances, makes the tough decisions like being on the house floor for every vote while others are on the campaign trail missing votes. That is why his recognition has suffered somewhat through this campaign to date. Alot of people don't know who he is because instead of grabbing photo-ops and sound bite ops on the trail, he's actually doing his job. There's your grandeur.

[Walt Starr]

41. I won't even consider voting for the man

unless he wins the nomination.

No offense, but this single issue has stopped all consideration for him as a candidate from me. If I lived in his district, I would not vote for him.

[hippywife]

43. I find it highly strange

that a male of the species would make this a total deal breaker when he supports him in every other issue. The women are backing him all the way and this is OUR issue.

[Walt Starr]

45. It's the way my mother raised me I guess

The abortion voting record is a deal breaker for me. Yes, if he was nominated I would put a clothespin on my nose, bring a puke bucket, and vote for him. I consider him unprincipled and do not believe for an instant he has changed his stance.

[REP]

78. "The Women"? PLEASE

I'm a woman, and I do not support Kucinich at all. His long, destructive anti-choice voting record, his anti-First Amendment flag-burning vote, and his general patronizing demeanor leave me cold, and I do not trust him. I am not alone. "Some" women, perhaps, but "the women" are not backing him all the way by any means.

[DemBones DemBones]

99. What? You're left cold by "his general

patronizing demeanor" ? -- you're thinking of Dr. Dean's bristly manner, I believe. Physicians are notorious for their God complexes.

[REP]

102. Don't Tell Me What I'm Thinking, M'Kay?

I don't like Kucinich, and you obviously don't like Dean - even though you seem to be unable to make a post without mentioning his name!

[DemBones DemBones]

106. Au contraire, I make many posts without mentioning

a certain candidate and in fact am still trying to understand what his fans like so much.

Sorry you don't like Kucinich. I can't help liking anyone who's as progressive as he is, and DUers who have met him (Tinoire, Will Pitt, Desertrose, revcarol) were very impressed by his personal presence and by his speeches. I hope you'll try to understand him better, as I'm trying to do with your man.

[REP]

110. "My Man" Isn't Running

I can't "understand" Kucinich the way you do, and I don't care what you think of Dean! Really! I just think it's darling to you to mention him so often.

[AnAmerican]

35. Obviously, you are letting this one issue.....

taint your perception of Dennis. That is sad because he IS a man whose greatest assets are his integrity and his honesty.

All I can say is...go to a DK event, listen to him, better yet engage him in conversation if the venue and time permit it. Ask him yourself, there is no better way to gauge a man's convictions than by looking him in the eye as he converses with you. Thousands of ordinary people have had that experience. They generally will walk away having the knowledge that here is a candidate who does not, and will not, change his stripes just to get elected.

Dennis gets elected the old fashioned way, one voter at a time.

The most powerful support for him comes from people who have spoken to him, one on one. They have seen with their own eyes what he stands for. They have seen what the TV cameras cannot show. They have seen what the print media cannot convey.

Go to an event.....THEN decide.

[Walt Starr]

37. If not for this one issue, I would be supporting Kucinich right now

I can never bring myself to support a man who flip flops when he decides to seek higher office. It smacks of a lack of principles and oportunism.

[orangecoloredapple]

40. Here's what comes to mind

If Dennis was truly changing his stripes to get elected, or appeal to a segment of the party, don't you think he would change a lot of stripes? Not just the one you have pointed out? Sure - his ideas are progressive - thankfully - but he hasn't backed down on a single one of them since announcing.

Again - what he has done is clarify his positions. One may not agree with the votes he has taken in the past, but those votes were conscience votes - and I admire him for them. He - again - would not take away the right to a womans freedom of choice. Period. No question - no discussion - read his words.

[Walt Starr]

42. His votes are specifically why I have NO admiration for him

If he were nominated, I would consider him a puke bucket candidate.

[hippywife]

44. Like I said...

highly strange. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

46. The difference is simple

You believe he means what he says now. I believe he means what he said with his voting record.

[AnAmerican]

48. I repeat my earlier post...

TALK to him about this issue. THEN decide if he is someone you can support.

If you are not willing to do that then I see no sense in each of us banging our head against a wall trying to out argue the other.

You have every right to your opinion but please do not be so adamant that you will not let yourself heed my advice.

[Walt Starr]

50. His voting record did all the talking I need to hear

Voting records are the loudest words politicians speak with.

I don't need anything more to convince me.

[AnAmerican]

53. Somewhat closed minded.....but to each their own

Have a good one and remember....the world is not black and white, there are many shades of gray.

[hippywife]

54. Even George Wallace

eventually admitted that he was wrong in his stance against segregation. Thankfully, Dennis isn't waiting until he is almost on his deathbed to make things right. He has the guts to come out and actually say he was wrong in the way he was seeing the issue and has relied on the women in his life to teach him why it still is OUR issue.

You are falling into the trap the republicans and the far right have set if you let this wedge issue drive you away from a candidate that you agree with otherwise.

[Walt Starr]

58. If this were six years after changing his stance

and he had built a solid pro-choice voting record. I would believe him.

He only recently changed his stance. He has no record on the new stance at this point.

[DemBones DemBones]

104. You're ignoring his recent vote AGAINST the D&E ban. eom

[Alexander]

129. Then what do his two years of abstaining on abortion votes mean?

He's been abstaining on votes regarding abortion since before Bush stole the election. I kinda doubt he was thinking about running for president way back in 2000.

What reason can you give for him abstaining, if you think he's flip-flopped for the sake of convenience?

[Dookus]

132. then why...

did he get a zero rating from NARAL and 10% from Planned Parenthood in 2001?!

[Tinoire]

36. Kucinich is pro-life in the same way I and 2193 feminists are pro-life

In other words we are pro-choice in favor of life, in favor of a decent life for every human being in America. Pro-life, what a ridiculous tactic to divide people. Don't fall for this man. Pro-life- pro-choice, mere hollow words meaning absolutely nothing. The important thing is to respect a woman's right to choose and at the same time work at improving everyone's quality of life.

From a feminist perspective, Kucinich (despite his too-recent conversion to pro-choice) arguably would be better for women - especially poor women and women of color - then the other Dem candidates. Of the Democratic candidates, for example, Kucinich is the one most likely to be sympathetic to the need for government-funded childcare; for not just keeping abortion legal, but for supporting funding programs to help poor women who cannot afford an abortion; for providing more real reproductive choice to poor women by supporting government aid to single mothers; to support unionization of female-heavy workforces, such as retail workers; to fight to raise the minimum wage (most minimum wage workers are women); etc, etc..

You will no doubt recognize many of the names of women who signed the statement below. It's a statement by die-hard feminists who are outraged that people would use that to discredit the most pro-choice and most pro-womens' rights candidate out there.

Like many main-stream Christians, especially Catholics, Kucinich believes in the sanctity of life and that life begins at conception. I am one of those people (both DK and I are Catholic). We believe that abortion isn't right in the eyes of God but there are many other things that are wrong in the eyes of God that get no play from the Christian right. Not once did Jesus, who we believe was God walking on earth amongst us, not once did he rail against abortion and abortion was rampant during his time. What he did rail against were the social ills of poverty, oppression, greed, exploitation. Abortion was never a divisive issue until the Christian Right made it one to better exploit the American people and manipulate their consciences into the Republican camp. Please don't play that game. During the 2000 elections our Bishops stood in front of their congregations and reminded people abortion was simply not an issue in politics- that it was a personal choice they hoped no one would make but that poverty, starvation of the poor, homeless women and children and exploitation were even greater sins. If you want to cure society- start there was what they said (btw, 2+2 why is the Catholic Church being so persecuted now? 2+2= coming elections). Anyway, there's nothing incongruous about Kucinich's evolution. He was taken aside by several women to include his sister and eventually understood that it was a matter of choice- a necessity in today's society.

He has already sworn that he will make up-holding Roe vs. Wade a Litmus test for judicial appointments. No other canidate has promised to do that. Also, no other candidate is addressing the social issues that revolve around abortion.

Peace

"I support a woman's right to freedom of choice," Kucinich says now. "I do not believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned." He vowed last week to an Iowa audience that "as president, I would protect that right , and I would also make sure that appointees to the Supreme Court protected that right."
Kucinich is following in the footsteps of Al Gore, Dick Gephardt, and other Democrats who flip-flopped on abortion shortly before launching presidential bids.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-enrich022003.asp

I support Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to choose, and will select Supreme Court justices who affirm this Constitutional right.

I’ve had a journey on this issue that a year ago, before I became a candidate for President, caused me to break from a voting record that had not been pro-choice. After hearing from many women in my own life, and from women and men in my community and across the country, I began a more intensive dialogue on the issue. A lot of women opened their hearts to me. That dialogue led me to wholeheartedly support a woman’s right to choose.

I have come to believe that it’s not simply about the right to choose, but about a woman’s role in society as being free and having agency and having the ability to make her own decisions. That a woman can’t be free unless she has this right.

The decision to terminate a pregnancy is one of the most serious decisions a woman might make. It is deeply personal. In our society, all women and all men have a right to make difficult moral decisions and make personal choices. But women will not be equal to men if this constitutionally protected right is denied.

I want to work to make abortions less necessary, which means sex education and birth control. I want to work to make sure that, when life is brought forward, we have prenatal care and postnatal care and childcare and universal health care and a living wage.

And because I know that the right to choose is under attack -- as President, I will only support someone for the Supreme Court if he or she agrees to uphold Roe v. Wade.

(April, 2003)

see also:
Kucinich Stands Up for Right-To-Choose and Gender Equality


Note from Lila Garrett

"For a very long time many of us tried to convince Dennis Kucinich to run for President. He made his decision in his own way, thoughfully, after much soul searching and meticulous analysis of the issues. I love the way his mind works. I have known Dennis for many years, during all of which he has stood for peace and patience. I watched him evolve on his position on Choice, for example, the way he listened to women -- really listened. The way he opposes the Bush administration's attempt to criminalize abortion. Dennis not only adamantly opposes the criminalization of abortion, he has come to support Choice not just with lip service, but with concrete programs to move it forward. He would fund abortions for poor women through Medicaid. He would make Roe v. Wade a litmus test for judicial appointments. Once he embraces a program, he doesn't just let it happen. He makes it happen." -- April, 2003

http://www.kucinich.net/issues/issue_rightsreproductive.htm


FEMINISTS FOR KUCINICH


We are feminists who consider the Bush administration a danger to our country and the world, and see a regime change in 2004 as the highest political priority. Rather than waiting to hear what all the Democratic candidates have to say, then jumping on the bandwagon of the least offensive, we decided to make our own list of priorities and see who agrees with us. Here's our list:

We want a candidate who will stop the war on the poor. Though an estimated 20 -29 percent of Americans live in poverty, the Republicans’ new tax code penalizes the poor and rewards the rich. Women on welfare are forced into low-paid jobs, even in the absence of childcare. Food pantries can no longer meet the demand of the millions of the poor, both employed and unemployed. When anyone mentions these facts, the Republicans accuse them of inciting a "class war," but they are the ones who have started this war, whose victims are disproportionately women, children and people of color.

We want a candidate who stands for peace, respects international treaties and institutions such as the U.N. and the International Criminal Court, and tries to resolve problems through negotiation. We are horrified by the fact that our country started a war for no clear reason, on the basis of lies and distortions, in defiance of international law and world opinion, and without concern for the lives that would be lost. Far from protecting us from terrorism, such military adventures can only increase our vulnerability and feed the rage and ranks of those who seek to harm us.

We want a candidate who will defend the separation of church and state, and the individual rights guaranteed us by the Constitution. The Bush administration has instituted detention without trial; secret military tribunals; and hugely increased government surveillance of our citizens.

We want a candidate who opposes discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity, and who stands for women's reproductive rights and recognizes that these rights depend on universal health insurance. The right to choose means women are entitled to abortion, if that is their choice, and to all the social supports necessary to raise children, if that is their choice. The Bush administration is seeking to appoint judges who will undermine these rights.

We want a candidate who will address questions of global economic imbalance and stand up for the rights of immigrants. International financial institutions like the IMF and World Bank, led by the U.S., have imposed “structural adjustment” policies that relentlessly increase the gulf between rich and poor countries -- driving many of the world's poor to come here, legally or illegally. We call for an end to the harassment of undocumented workers by the INS and the political persecution of immigrants of color--the round-ups and detentions. We are a "nation of immigrants" and should embrace this heritage.

We want a candidate who will challenge racism domestically and internationally; who understands that affirmative action is still needed and that our schools have been re-segregated; and who will take a stand against the Republican Party’s use of stereotypes to spread division and fear, from Reagan's "welfare queens" to today's demonized version of Islam.

Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate who not only agrees with all these points but has developed policies to support them: starting a cabinet-level Department of Peace; supporting unions and the right to organize; cutting the bloated military budget; restoring environmental regulations and launching a “Global Green Deal” to benefit developing countries; withdrawing from NAFTA and the WTO and challenging IMF/World Bank policies; repealing the “Patriot Act”; upholding Roe v. Wade; working for universal health insurance; and abolishing the racially and economically biased death penalty.

Because we feel that he comes closest to representing our priorities, we have decided to support Dennis Kucinich for President and hope you will join us by signing this statement. Of course this does not preclude our voting for whoever gets the nomination; this is about whom to support in the primaries. Molly Ivins has put it: Vote your heart in the primaries, vote your head in November. If Dennis wins enough hearts, there won't be any contradiction.

Original Signers:


Barbara Ehrenreich, a political essayist whose most recent book is Nickel and Dimed: Surviving in Low Wage America

Angela Gilliam, professor and scholar of Black feminist anthropology and international feminism

Ynestra King, a writer and activist specializing in environmental, feminist, and disability issues

Gail Lerner, an organizer in the global women's movement, who has worked with several United Nations agencies and international NGOs in the U.S. and abroad

Grace Paley, a writer and peace activist whose works include Enormous Changes at the Last Minute, Later That Same Day, and Just as I Thought

Rosalind Petchesky, an international feminist activist and Distinguished Professor of Political Science at Hunter College and the City University of New York

Digna Sanchez, a Latina community activist in New York, president of the Aspirante Alumni Fellowship

Meredith Tax, a novelist, essayist and international organizer of feminist writers, whose books include Rivington Street and Union Square

http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/feminists_4_kucinich/

[orangecoloredapple]

47. You can't argue with that!

education and information -

it's a beautiful thing, ain't it?

[Tinoire]

57. Absolutely beautiful!

As a devout liberal activist Catholic Democrat, I really resent the way abortion has become THE defining issue between Democrats and Republicans. It makes one wonder if maybe Nader was correct after all! Are there no more important issues? We have become JUST as bad as the Republicans over this.

Here is our party's MOST progressive candidate (Sharpton aside) who has worked so hard to eliminate the need women have to go get an abortion and we have been so conditioned to respond that we re-act like this. Abortion is no walk in the park for any woman. Personally, I would love to see it disappeared but it can't be- not in today's society. Not in a society so broken that so many women are abandoned and raising children by themselves with no help from the government. Clinton was great on abortion rights but I ask you- what did he do for all these women? Did he make child-care affordable, even free so that women who might want to keep the child, have THAT CHOICE? Did he pass any progressive laws like they have in Europe so that the women would get paid after they've delivered and have the CHOICE to return to their jobs which were kept secure for them and the CHOICE to spend a few months bonding with their child? Did he pass any laws offering free medical care to the chidren so that women have the CHOICE to care for these children? THAT's what CHOICE is! NOT this rubbish they're passing off as choice where you can choose to either have a life of your own or not because the society you live in is so fucked up that it can't think with a little more depth so it tosses empty hollow words around. More political manipulation and I'm getting tired of it.

[LWolf]

61. Yep.

It surely is. Thanks, Tinoire!

[Tinoire]

80. The human mind is so amazingly complex!

Depth, evolution, adaptation to a system we abhor which says it's ok to walk past a homeless man as we vote for people who won't even consider cutting an obscene death-crunching, war-justifying defense budget.

Sometimes I wonder why we even have a conscience since we are so reluctant (or is it incapable?) to use it...

I wonder what those 3000 people in the tower would have cared more about- a Department of Peace and someone who didn't go out of his/her way to advance retaliation-begging American Imperialism in this sad world or abortions none of them would ever again have the need to choose...

Not knocking anyone just thinking out loud.

I'm as guilty as the next person.

[Yentatelaventa]

63. It's ok to kill growing babies in your womb if you don't want the to live

Really it is. I just hope you don't have to use a coat-hanger.

[Tinoire]

68. I'm missing your point totally

so it's murder in your opinion but it's ok but coat-hangers are bad?

Dude, please run that past me one more time... I just can't understand where you're going with this one.

[Devlzown]

55. He voted strictly pro-life

until the late 90's. I don't agree with his past stance on that issue, but I still support him. A politician's view on abortion is not that important to me; I can think of lots of other things I care more about.

[Walt Starr]

60. That's fine and I cannot fault you your view on this

I consider abortion a litmus test. Failure to pass this one test for me is a deal breaker.

[diamondsoul]

72. Interesting.

You keep re-iterating how you'd be ok if this were 6 years later. What difference does that make if he's being up-front about his past votes and his current belief that rights overpower religious views he personally holds?

No offense because I think with any other candidate I might share your misgivings, but this man does not lie. Seriously, I can't find a single case of a proven known falsehood he's ever spoken. And I've looked because my immediate thought was "Too good to be true.".

Surprise! There ARE some honest politicians out there!

[Dookus]

66. actually....

in 2001 he voted with NARAL ZERO percent of the time. Got a 10% rating from Planned Parenthood the same year.


"A check of special interest group ratings for Kucinich also confirms that the pro-life side has apparently lost one of its more reliable Democratic (or Republican for that matter) votes. For example, in 2001 he voted with Planned Parenthood only 10% of the time, and he voted with NARAL, the other leading abortion rights group, zero percent of the time. Along with that, in 1999-2000, Kucinich also had a 95% rating from the National Right to Life Committee."

quote from http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/features_section/2003-02/02262003kucinich.asp

[jburton]

69. And keep in mind

That many of these votes aren't technically about "abortion"; they are about things like coverage of contraception and other equity issues.

The "Pro-Lifers" aren't just voting against abortion; they are also against sex education in schools, contraception coverage, and funding for poor women to get cancer screening. What, exactly, is "Pro-Life" about that?

[Dookus]

70. Yup!

A whole range of issues important to women's equality.

If Lieberman had that kind of record, the attacks from the feminists here would be deafening.

[diamondsoul]

73. I suspect that's where the 10% figure came from.

Kucinich has never spoken against BC coverage or any of those kinds of things as far as I've been able to find. If anyone else does, please let me know. His PL position came from his core religious beliefs (Catholic).

[Dookus]

79. I found this...

As a Congressman, he amassed one of the most anti-abortion voting records in Congress, one especially unusual for a Democrat. Fair enough, Kucinich was raised Catholic. He voted to criminalize partial birth abortions, to deny American servicewoman the right even to pay for their own abortions overseas, to prevent Washington, D.C. from funding abortions for poor women with nonfederal dollars, against research on RU-486, even against health coverage of basic contraception for federal employees. In 1996 he told Planned Parenthood that he did not support the substance of Roe v. Wade. He received a a 95 percent position rating from the National Right to Life Committee, versus 10 percent from Planned Parenthood and 0 percent from NARAL.


from http://www.realchange.org/kucinich.htm

And from The Nation:

He supported Bush's reinstatement of the gag rule for recipients of US family planning funds abroad. He supported the Child Custody Protection Act, which prohibits anyone but a parent from taking a teenage girl across state lines for an abortion. He voted for the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which makes it a crime, distinct from assault on a pregnant woman, to cause the injury or death of a fetus. He voted against funding research on RU-486. He voted for a ban on dilation and extraction (so-called partial-birth) abortions without a maternal health exception. He even voted against contraception coverage in health insurance plans for federal workers--a huge work force of some 2.6 million people (and yes, for many of them, Viagra is covered).

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20020527&s=pollitt


So he DID vote against contraception coverage.

[Desertrose]

97. great choice of websites to prove your bias...I mean point

Using websites that slam Kucinich is hardly fair or unbiased.

The only fair way is to read the entire bill- I'm sure you are aware how often there is "crap" posted at the end of these billls that ultimately make an acceptable bill suddenly no longer acceptable.

He is the only candidate who has stated flat out -many times- that his litmus test for potential SCOTUS judges is whether they will overturn RvW.-if they say they will- he will not approve them. I have met him- spoken with him and looked him in the eye...I believe he is honest about this as he is honest about other things.

I don't see why someone is not allowed to change...haven't you ever changed your thinking on something? But hey, if you are not open, then you are not opent..so be it. Maybe some day you'll want to change your mind- sure hope you are given the chance.

Peace
DR

[REP]

100. "The Nation" An Anti-Kucinich Site?!?

Hardly! Some other articles on Kucinich from The Nation:

Kucinich's Antiwar Bid
John Nichols
03/10/2003 issue

The Soul of the Worker
Dennis J. Kucinich
09/2/2002 (web)

Kucinich Is the One
Studs Terkel
05/6/2002 issue

Kucinich Rocks the Boat
John Nichols
03/25/2002 issue

[Desertrose]

105. actually I was referring to this site

http://www.realchange.org/kucinich.htm

Pretty obvious there is a bias here....would you say?

Dennis Kucinich's Scandals

New Age Mystic
Led Cleveland Into Bankruptcy
Dennis Kucinich's Skeleton Closet

To portray this as "new age mystic"....

<snip>
...Department of Peace. "I have a holistic view of the world," he explains. "I see the world as interconnected and interdependent and that leaves no room for war."<snip>

Very similar to many Native Am & Indigenous traditions & beliefs....

Peace
DR

[Dookus]

107. and again....

do you dispute the facts i quoted, or do you just want to attack the source?

Everything I posted from the realchange site is corroborated not only by the Nation article, but by everything else I can find.

Stop attacking the source of the facts you don't like. If the facts are wrong, dispute them. Otherwise, knock off the bias crap.

[REP]

108. "Real Change" Slams ALL The Candidates - Not Just Kucinich!

They're digging up dirt on each and every candidate - not just Kucinich. He's just the one with the, erm, more colorful quotes. "The energy of the stars becomes us. We become the energy of the stars. Stardust and spirit unite and we begin: one with the universe, whole and holy. From one source, endless creative energy, bursting forth, kinetic, elemental; we, the earth, air, water and fire-source of nearly fifteen billion years of cosmic spiraling." Kucinich, in the "Journal of Concious Evolution"

[Tinoire]

123. Aw C'Mon Rep- Carl Sagan says that and not one beep

Kucinich says that and he's "erm, more colorful"?

Good Lord. What would that site do to Stephen Hawkins!

Anyway, good to know they rip everyone to shreds.

[REP]

135. Carl Sagan is A) Dead and B) Not Running for Office

but if he were, I wouldn't be surprised to find people taken aback by that kind of colorful metaphor. Jerry Brown did, and was called "Governor Moonbeam."

When Sagan was alive, his manner of speaking was widely parodied, by the way.

[Dookus]

101. Bias?

Do you argue with the facts cited in those articles?

I have no bias against him. I simply don't trust him on the issue of abortion rights.

And I've posted elsewhere in this thread that yes of course I realize people change their minds. But Kucinich's record was NOT in any way ambiguous. He voted repeatedly, for many meany years, against abortion rights and against expanded contraception coverage.

I've also posted elsewhere here that I believe he's sincere.

But I also believe that the attack on abortion rights in this country is a major issue and I would prefer a real fighter on the issue rather than somebody who changed his mind in the last couple of years, and in my opinion, did so for political expediency.

There's no reason to call me biased.

[Dookus]

119. just a hit and run, eh?

How was I unfair or biased?

[Desertrose]

126. here's a few definitions....

#1 Google search
noun:   a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation

#2
Webster Dictionary, 1913
2. A learning of the mind; propensity or prepossession toward an object or view, not leaving the mind indifferent; bent inclination.

#3
MERRIAM WEBSTER
Main Entry: 1bi·as
Etymology: Middle French biais
Date: 1530
3 a : BENT, TENDENCY b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : PREJUDICE c : an instance of such prejudice d (1) : deviation of the expected value of a statistical estimate from the quantity it estimates (2) : systematic error introduced into sampling or testing by selecting or encouraging one outcome or answer over others

#4
INFOPLEASE.COM
2. a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.


I would say that believing that DK is not being truthful about his stand on choice/abortion already makes you biased by the above definitions...as it also makes me biased in the opposite direction.
OK?

Now...it is late here & I am not ignoring you or doing a "hit & run"...I am going to bed...
sweet dreams Dookus :)

Peace
DR

[Dookus]

130. except...

I never said he was untruthful.

I've been very very careful to explain my exact position, which you can find expressed here in multiple threads.

I still reject the idea that posting factually accurate information is being unfair or biased.

[REP]

136. Remember What Ambrose Bierce Said?

His definition of impiety was "your irreverance toward my deity." With a few minor adjustments, this could be the definition of "bias" that is in use here.

[Dookus]

59. This...

is exactly why I'm not supporting him either.

He had a 100% anti-choice VOTING record until last year. That's unacceptable. Choice did not become a progressive issue in 2002.

I spent years as a clinic escort at three different abortion clinics. This issue is a deal-breaker for me.

If he had changed his position even 5 years ago, I might be persuaded. But it appears he changed it only when he started to think of running for President.

And this is my FIRST post against a candidate. I've joined the fray! :)

[Paulie]

71. Just a Q

Since when is 2001 "last year" when we're almost in 2004? Just wondering....

If you're a single issue voter, then nothing is going to change. I'm also a single issue voter, and I will NOT support anyone who gave even the barest support to the premptive invasion of a soverign nation. Because if they can get away with that, they are capable of ANYTHING, no matter the party.

[Dookus]

75. umm...

in 2001, he had a bad pro-choice record.

He evidently began to change it in 2002.

Which, by my calendar, is last year.

What a stupid attack.

[Shanty Oilish]

74. I don't care what he thinks. I look at his record.

And then I wonder about his character. It's a pro-life record, which is bad enough. But if he thinks it's murder, why is he saying he'll let it continue? Am I supposed to believe this? If he makes this huge moral compromise, isn't he capable of many others?
I don't trust him.

[Tinoire]

83. Then you better get ready not to trust

any of the mainstream Christian Liberals who have chosen to remain in the Democratic Party because of a personal evolution on this issue.

There are many more of us than people think.

The majority of Catholics are Democrats despite this issue and an ability to understand that what is someone else's choice is not ours.

Every person has his/her conscience.

Believe in evolution Caroline. It exists.

Have you never sincerely evolved to a different point of view?

On edit: Whew! Not to late to edit- Just re-read this and my post sounds so terse! I didn't/don't mean it that way. I'm posting on a Military board at the same time and well, the posting style there is a wee bit different! :) )

[Dookus]

85. Tinoire...

I think most of us here accept "mental evolution". I would hope all of us have changed our minds about issues over time.

The problem, though, for me, is that there wasn't an ounce of ambiguity on Kucinich's stand. He voted to criminalize dilation and extraction. He voted to PUT DOCTORS IN JAIL!

He voted against expanding medical coverage for contraception.

He voted against research into RU486.

I shouldn't have to tell you or anybody on this board that abortion is under attack in this country. Even public support for it is slipping. I want a Dem candidate who will ACTIVELY fight for abortion rights. Not someone who reluctantly came around on the issue in the last year or two.

Do you really think Kucinich would be out in front leading the fight for abortion rights?

[Tinoire]

112. I think he would certainly be front and center (and has been)

of fighting for the surrounding issues that would lessen the need for any woman to have to go get a fetus scraped out of her womb.

You know at one time, no matter how liberal I've always been, I was THIS close to standing in front of abortion clinics, not to yell and scream but to try to talk women out of it by offering a deal where I could take the baby. I realized this wasn't feasible in my situation and didn't but I was that convinced it's murder and I still am. I'm so sorry but that's what I really believe and no force on earth will ever make me budge from that belief. BUT (2 things)

1. There are other forms of murder we never talk about. GMOs, slow economic strangulation of the poor, industrialized farming where fully sentient beings are barbarically tormented so we can have cheap meat, the IMF swooping in and fromenting political coups that will be to our economic advantage.

2. Very simply give unto Cesar what is Cesar's and to God what is God's. God gave each and every one of us a conscience. God also knows each and every one of our circumstances. I have NO right to make a decision for you that is only between you, your conscience and God.

If your conscience tells you that fetus is a meaningless, lifeless blob then God sees that and understands how you arrived at your decision. God also sees that your circumstances (social, economic, emotional) and NOT me. I have NO right to change the laws of Cesar in a society that allows abortion to be practically a necessity.

It is not abortion that's under attack. That's simply what we're told because that's the easiest issue to machiavellically manipulate politically- it's ALL of women's rights for which Dennis has been consistently fighting. Like I said earlier- the same ones who are touting that they voted for legalized PBAs are the same ones who have denied women the free medical care where we could get ultra-sounds in time to avoid a PBA! The same ones who have denied me the right, the choice to have my tax dollars going to social programs that would allow me to care for my child properly as I work. Kucinich hasn't done this- he fought for those rights. Had more people fought along with him, things such as PBA votes wouldn't even be coming up.

But I've digressed! I can not say that Kucinich would be out front and center fighting for abortion rights but I can say, stake my life on it, that he would be out fighting for reproductive rights which is so much larger than just abortion rights. He has promised to not only uphold Roe vs Wade but to make it a litmus test. What other candidate is willing to promise that? And bear in mind that Kucinich has always been a man of his word. No waffling and no gray areas but always the courage to stand by his convictions and his word.

I'll tell you what kind of candidate will NOT be front and center about abortion rights (won't even go to the larger issue of reproductive rights)- it's all those candidates who have health care plans that would leave out 4-10% of the population because that 4 percent, that poorest 4-10% is the 4-10% who would need the coverage to get it the most and would get nada, zip, nothing. No abortion rights or even reproductive rights for them.

That's what I sincerely believe. As does my extremely feminist, activist mother who's out campaigning for Kucinich because no other candidate comes as close when it comes to respecting the whole woman.

Also I don't think the evolution was reluctant. You should really just go see him and ask that question. I practically guarantee you you will not be disappointed.

Fascinating Dookus. Let's meet for that drink! I'm flexible Saturday- just pick a time.

[wheresthemind]

115. Tinore...

You are such an assesst to Dennis and the campaign... I'm honored to be on the same side as you.

Have you every though about running for office?

[Tinoire]

121. lol!

You're talking to someone who went through 20 years in the military walking on pins and needles wondering when she'd be court-martialled for "extremist views" and not being conventional enough.

Nope... My wild past in Berlin would be a major embarrassment to the Democratic Party. Certain posters would rack up thousands of posts saying "She's a loose cannon-ball". Oh no...! ;) But wow, thanks for that comment!

I'm so honored to be on the same side as every single Kucinich supporter I've met at DU and out in real life. There's been something very, very special about DK supporters.

There's something very, very special about all liberals and I'm convinced that 90% of this board are closet DK supporters- some stuck on the abortion history and others on the electability non-starter tossed out by agenda-driven people who want to convince others that only their candidate is electable.

If I ever am foolish enough to run, will you run with me? :)

[wheresthemind]

127. I will head up the MN campaign for Tinoire any day!

But I'm sure you'll be on Dennis's cabinet and to busy for your own campaign soon!

You are truly one of the most enlightened people on DU!

I'm amazed how you seem to keep your cool all the time...

Last night after receiving my fourth unsolicited "the progressive case for Dean" e-mail I came running here and vented like crazy.

I aspire to be more like you Tinoire! Keep it up!

[Tinoire]

133. Oh this is a good night for the battered ego :)

Can I be your fan instead? I'm constantly amazed at the information you bring up... And just tonight I was looking at my friend's DemBones posts and wondering "Now how come she can say in 10 words what it takes me 140 to say?".

You're getting Dean Spam? Look on the bright side, if it's enraging you, imagine what that's doing to other people. No one likes Spam regardless of who it's from.

You know who I want to be more like? John Kleeb! He is the absolute kindest, calmest DK supporter! If I can get anywhere near Kucinich again, I'm determined to get John his autograph!

Your comment is so kind. Thank you so much! I think the trick is ignoring the trolls and only talking with people who want a polite, constructive exchange.

Ok, now I am not cool! Chimp-boy, that inarticulate frat-boy is smirking on CNN. URGHHH! Makes me want to heave a vase at the TV!

On edit, peace and good-night :)

[Dookus]

116. You wrote...

"it's not abortion that's under attack".

I must very respectfully but forcefully disagree.

Restrictive limits on abortion are being enacted all the time, and more importantly, the fanatic anti's have scared many providers out of business. Rural women in some states have NO access to an abortion provider. Waiting period laws also make it financially prohibitive for poor women - they can't afford to drive to the nearest big city and spend two nights there.

I, too, have stood in front of abortion clinics (right in San Jose - maybe you saw me!) to protect women from the assaults of the fundamentalist nutcases that tried to accost them.

If you have any doubt that abortion isn't under attack, check out
http://www.naral.org/publications/whodecides2003.cfm

[Tinoire]

122. Dookus! What about my drink??!

It is not abortion that's under attack. That's simply what we're told because that's the easiest issue to machiavellically manipulate politically- it's ALL of women's rights for which Dennis has been consistently fighting.

I phrased that poorly but maybe with my clarification below, you'll see what I meant to convey so allow me to rephrase that.

What's really under attack are ALL of women's reproductive rights- the right of choice for an abortion is only part of the entire package under attack.

We do not disagree.

I am horrified that so many physicians have been scared off; I come from a medical family and know this to be true. Rest assured, you never saw me at one of those! The only time you might ever see me is the day I break down and wander over there with a quiet little sign that reads "I can't have one, please can I have yours?". In that case, I'd be demurely sitting in a little corner- not shouting and screaming or telling anyone they were going to hell and all that garbage.

BUT WHAT ABOUT MY DRINK?

[Dookus]

124. heheh....

give me a holler! I'm around Saturday, as far as I know!

[Tinoire]

128. Cool! Will you PM me your number again?

It's on the old DU and you never know... My in-box over there could be deleted by now!

Yes, lets. Would love to! Since it's Santa Cruz, I'll be sure to bring my suit that way it can all stay cool in case your plans change or something.

You never know. San Jose abortion clinics could be happening that day... But you know what, if they were I'd be right there with you.

No one has a right to tell one of my sisters she has no choice in this rotten society!

Now that I've made you re-commit, I'm going to bed... Gotta work in the morning because my cats are still, unfortunately, unemployed- lucky buggers! ;)

Peace

[DemBones DemBones]

114. Kucinich has already argued against the D&E "partial birth " ban

on the House floor, urging his colleagues to vote against it. That's the only opportunity to support legal abortion that he's had in the House since he changed his position.

He pledges that anyone he nominates to SCOTUS must support upholding the right to abortion, must support upholding Roe v. Wade. No other Dem has pledged this.

Remember that Kucinich is pro-life about other issues, too, opposing capital punishment and war.

Abortion is the great moral issue of out rime. It is no wonder that so many of us have difficulty with it and that there are so many nuances involved.

[Shanty Oilish]

88. Let me know when his personal evolution catches up

with his voting record. :)

[Tinoire]

117. You're cute :)

Like I said, one person- one vote and I respect your right to make that your litmus test and such a critical issue that you can't accept the evolution just based on faith. I am not versed enough in his evolution to convince you (and I'm not so sure I'd want to convince you- just make people think about it). Peace

(My next 3 paragraphs plagiarized from friends)

If you examine his voting record you'll find he began changing his position long before he ever spoke of running for Presidential nomination.

Dennis is personally against abortion, and I don't think he needs to be ashamed of that. I'll bet if you ask the whole NARAL mailing list whether abortion is sometimes a wrong moral descision, you'll get a really high percentage of yes votes.

The whole point of pro-choice is WHO GETS TO MAKE THE DECISION. Women in his life have convinced him that it should be the woman, and that the best way to prevent abortion is to create a society that supports care-giving in general.
-----------

EDWARDS: Until recently, you opposed abortion. Why the change of heart?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, actually the evolution that I've had on the issue of abortion has come about as a result of a number of factors. One has been the fact that over the last few years there's been a move in the Congress to try to criminalize abortion. I don't believe in criminalization. I think abortion should be made less necessary and you do that through birth control and sex education. But when this Congress makes a move towards criminalization, what it's really saying is that a woman doesn't equality in the society and I support a woman's right to choose. I think that it is fundamental in a democracy that a woman have equality and any effort to try to criminalize abortion would strike at the heart of that equality. So I support Roe v. Wade... Was I always there? No. But with the help of women in my life and women who I've had the opportunity to talk to over the years, I've seen how this really has become such a divisive and destructive issue and I think that we can work to achieve a society which supports a woman's right to choose and we can do that within the context of working to make abortions less necessary. We also have to, through sex education and birth control..., to try to create a culture which is life-affirming through prenatal care and postnatal care and child care and a living wage, universal health care and all these things which can help life unfold to the fullest. But I think that we are at a moment where there is a serious effort afoot to wipe out Roe v. Wade and I'm not going to be any part of that. I support a woman's right to choose.
--------------------------

Excerpt (re abortion) from NPR Interview- June 2003

EDWARDS: This is curious, though... you've been around a while. Did you have some sort of epiphany or did you decide to run for president?

Rep. KUCINICH: Well, actually long before I became a candidate for president... this was an issue that I had been thinking about in the last Congress. I was the only member of Congress who cast a 'present' vote on an issue that dealt with late-term abortions when the Congress came back after a Supreme Court decision that said that a bill that the Nebraska legislature had passed, which is similar to a bill that Congress had passed, was unconstitutional because it didn't provide for a woman's health and didn't really describe the procedure. When I saw Congress over the Supreme Court's constitutional issues that had been raised nevertheless pass the same bill, when that moment came, I thought this really isn't about a concern for life that's being expressed here. What I saw it as was a concern about crass politics. I am concerned about life and I think that we need to do everything we can to make abortions less necessary. But we have to remember in this constitutionally based government we have that the right of equality is also at stake here for women and women will never truly be equal unless they can be free to make their own choices. And so I would say that my evolution on this issue has come about as a result of being in the House, looking at the way these votes have developed, looking at the politics of it and not wanting to play politics with this because this is the kind of deeply personal issue that affects so many lives. At the same time the underlying question is what can we do to minimize the number of abortions. The way to do it, I think, and what I've always supported is to make sure that sex education and birth control can make abortions less necessary. And for myself, I could not have got to the position I'm at without the help of a lot of women who have appealed to me and said, 'Look, there are so many issues that are at stake here, would you please look at them.' I've kept an open mind and finally arrived at a place as a member of Congress before I became a presidential candidate where I was able to say what I think what's best for the country is to try to take a position where you work to try to make abortions less necessary but do it within a constitutional framework. And that's where I am and as president, I think, because of my experience with this issue, I'll be in a position to heal this nation, where I can take the nation away from the bitterness and the divisiveness which has occurred over the issue of abortion and understanding the concerns of people on both sides but being very firmly supportive of the constitutional rights which women have, not only under Roe v. Wade, but of an inherent constitutional right a woman has to equality.

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3837§ionID=33

[Shanty Oilish]

120. *slurp*

Cute is good. :) Peace back!

[Tinoire]

125. Thank you for making me burst out laughing!

That was just what I needed tonight after watching "Military Families Speak Out" on C-Span 3 times!

Peace

Pink Power! Girl Power! Code Pink ALL THE WAY!

[private_ryan]

77. who cares!!!!

like that's going to matter. Dennis is not going anywhere.

[wheresthemind]

118. yeah! Thats the spirit!

just like Paul Wellstone!

[REP]

81. Kucinich's Record

From "Regressive Progressive?" by Katha Pollitt May 27, 2002:

"One thing you won't find on Kucinich's website, though, is any mention of his opposition to abortion rights. In his two terms in Congress, he has quietly amassed an anti-choice voting record of Henry Hyde-like proportions. He supported Bush's reinstatement of the gag rule for recipients of US family planning funds abroad. He supported the Child Custody Protection Act, which prohibits anyone but a parent from taking a teenage girl across state lines for an abortion. He voted for the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which makes it a crime, distinct from assault on a pregnant woman, to cause the injury or death of a fetus. He voted against funding research on RU-486. He voted for a ban on dilation and extraction (so-called partial-birth) abortions without a maternal health exception. He even voted against contraception coverage in health insurance plans for federal workers--a huge work force of some 2.6 million people (and yes, for many of them, Viagra is covered). Where reasonable constitutional objections could be raised--the lack of a health exception in partial-birth bans clearly violates Roe v. Wade, as the Supreme Court ruled in Stenberg v. Carhart--Kucinich did not raise them; where competing principles could be invoked--freedom of speech for foreign health organizations--he did not bring them up. He was a co-sponsor of the House bill outlawing all forms of human cloning, even for research purposes, and he opposes embryonic stem cell research. His anti-choice dedication has earned him a 95 percent position rating from the National Right to Life Committee, versus 10 percent from Planned Parenthood and 0 percent from NARAL.



When I spoke with Kucinich by phone, he seemed to be looking for a way to put some space between himself and his record. "I believe life begins at conception"--Kucinich was raised as a Catholic--"and that it doesn't end at birth." He said he favored neither a Human Life Amendment that would constitutionally protect "life" from the moment of conception, nor the overturning of Roe v. Wade (when asked by Planned Parenthood in 1996 whether he supported the substance of Roe, however, he told them he did not). He spoke of his wish to see abortion made rare by providing women with more social supports and better healthcare, by requiring more responsibility from men and so on. He presented his votes as votes not against abortion per se but against federal funding of the procedure. Unfortunately, his record does not easily lend itself to this reading: He voted specifically against allowing Washington, DC, to fund abortions for poor women with nonfederal dollars and against permitting female soldiers and military dependents to have an abortion in overseas military facilities even if they paid for it themselves. Similarly, although Kucinich told me he was not in favor of "criminalizing" abortion, he voted for a partial-birth-abortion ban that included fines and up to two years in jail for doctors who performed them, except to save the woman's life. What's that, if not criminalization?"

{...} {I}f he plans to run for President, Kucinich will have to change his stance, and prove it, or kiss the votes of pro-choice women and men goodbye. It won't be enough to present himself as low profile or, worse, focused elsewhere (he voted to take away abortion rights inadvertently? in a fog? thinking about something more "important" than whether women should be forced to give birth against their will?).

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020527&s=pollitt

In May, 2003, Pollitt wrote:

"Back in May, I received brickbats, whatever they are, for a column titled "Regressive Progressive?" in which I pointed out Dennis Kucinich's little-noticed 100 percent antichoice voting record and modestly suggested that if he wanted to run for President he would have to rethink his willingness to force pregnant women to give birth. A surprising number of readers felt pro-choicers should shut up about their silly little issue and embrace Kucinich in the interests of progressive unity. Fortunately, Kucinich is more sensible and less sexist than these benighted admirers. In recent abortion-related votes he has taken the pro-choice side and now, just in time for his announcement of his presidential bid, affirms Roe v. Wade on his website. National Review Online attributed this change of heart to "a tiny article" in The Nation (thanks a lot). I'd rather credit Kucinich's own instinct for what is right and fair in a pluralist society. Better late than never!"

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030310&s=pollitt

[w4rma]

84. Yup. But he's also pro-choice (work to make abortions less necessary).

I support Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to choose, and will select Supreme Court justices who affirm this Constitutional right.

I’ve had a journey on this issue that a year ago, before I became a candidate for President, caused me to break from a voting record that had not been pro-choice. After hearing from many women in my own life, and from women and men in my community and across the country, I began a more intensive dialogue on the issue. A lot of women opened their hearts to me. That dialogue led me to wholeheartedly support a woman’s right to choose.

I have come to believe that it’s not simply about the right to choose, but about a woman’s role in society as being free and having agency and having the ability to make her own decisions. That a woman can’t be free unless she has this right.

The decision to terminate a pregnancy is one of the most serious decisions a woman might make. It is deeply personal. In our society, all women and all men have a right to make difficult moral decisions and make personal choices. But women will not be equal to men if this constitutionally protected right is denied.

I want to work to make abortions less necessary, which means sex education and birth control. I want to work to make sure that, when life is brought forward, we have prenatal care and postnatal care and childcare and universal health care and a living wage.

And because I know that the right to choose is under attack -- as President, I will only support someone for the Supreme Court if he or she agrees to uphold Roe v. Wade.
http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_rightsreproductive.htm

[FubarFly]

86. For what it's worth, I believe his conversion.

First, look at why he voted for a pro-life agenda.

Then, look at his own words to understand his reason for changing.

And finally, look at the entirety of his record.

If you do you'll find that he does not have a history of politically convenient flip-flopping. He does however have a history of fighting for what he believes in. Dennis Kucinich is one of the good guys. If he says he was wrong before and vows to fight for woman's rights from here on out, as evidenced by his actions during his entire career, I see no reason not to believe him. He has earned the benefit of the doubt.

I will extend that same courtesy to John Kerry if he decides to fully retract his war vote. As I do for Howard Dean, for his new found love of populism. And for Al Sharpton, for putting his race-baiting past behind him, and finding a wonderful all-inclusive progressive voice.

There is no such thing as a perfect candidate. But if you put your biasness and pettiness aside, and look with clear eyes, you'll have to admit, we have some pretty damn good ones.

[w4rma]

90. I believe him, also. IMHO, his current position is a very good one. (n/t)

[Dookus]

91. C'mon...

isn't it possible that we have a principled disagreement that's not based on "biasness and pettiness"?

Look, for what it's worth, I believe he is now pro-choice.

I am NOT convinced, however, that he would actively lead the fight to EXPAND abortion rights.

Also, it's not just about abortion - his voting history is also against contraception funding. Now he may have changed his mind on that, too, but I just find it hard to believe it will be a high priority for him.

Don't get me wrong - I like Kucinich. I really do. But I won't vote for him because, for me, the assault on abortion rights in this country is immensely important and needs to be fought hard.

[FubarFly]

93. I respect your opinion.

For the record, I'm a Howard Dean supporter.

My reasons for not supporting Kucinich are different than yours. But if he wins the nomination, there is no doubt that I will support him.
In the end, we will all have to be united to defeat b*sh. Debate is one thing, divisiveness is another.

Is it safe to presume you agree?

[Dookus]

96. of course!

I hope none of my posts have come across as divisive. In fact, I'm rather impressed with the high quality of this entire thread. It's much better than most other "candidate" threads I've read. And this is really the first one I've posted in.

Yes, if Kucinich is the nominee, I will vote for him. However, I think the odds of him winning the nomination are about the same as Carol Mosely-Braun's, i.e., < %1

[FubarFly]

103. Actually your posts have been very thoughtful .

My comments about unity is sort of my own litmus test. I hope your candidate receives an equal amount of respect as what you are showing here. I look forward to our future discussions.

[Shanty Oilish]

92. So you're saying, believe him because of his pro-life record?

"If you do you'll find that he does not have a history of politically convenient flip-flopping..."
(He does now.)
"He does however have a history of fighting for what he believes in..."
Ok...he has a history of fighting for pro-life. Because he did so consistently vote pro-life, we should now believe him when he says he's pro-choice?
"If he says he was wrong before and vows to fight for woman's rights from here on out, as evidenced by his actions during his entire career, I see no reason not to believe him. He has earned the benefit of the doubt."
A thoroughgoing pro-life voting record entitles him to the benefit of the doubt?
Not my doubt!

[FubarFly]

94. Look at his stand on the other issues.

That's all I'm asking.

[Dookus]

98. I have...

and most I agree with.


I disagree with him on NAFTA and trade.

[wheresthemind]

109. I don't get it!!!

If Dennis was a flip flop kind of politician then why did he take a two year break?

And why if his evolution on abortion was to please progressives, did he vote for what he believed on the Flag Burning act knowing he would get flamed for it???

Another point is at least he was there to VOTE on all of these. Some of the candidates can't say that.

[Tinoire]

134. Excellent point!

I think we should make up a chart to depict this! This is an important that people aren't considering. It pains me to no end to see a man of integrity docked while others deftly avoided this by not even being present for the votes. Those are the same ole, same ole I don't want running the country anymore.

Want to work on such a chart together?