This "lefty-commie-pinko" isn't going to dance on Reagan's grave.

[devilgrrl]

This "lefty-commie-pinko" as in ME!

I hated, hated, HATED the Reagan administration but I just can't be mean about his death, no matter how repugnant I thought he was in life. Plus, I do like Ron Jr. and Patty - think about how they feel. :shrug:

[freetobegay]

1. I just have a hard time, when I think back to when 200 marines

were killed in Beruit & then come to find out they were not even allowed to have ammunititon in their weapons because? Heres a clue Ronald Reagan.

I won't dance on his grave, but I will spit on it.

[Dookus]

6. the point

in this and other threads is not whether Reagan was a good President. Nobody here believes that.

But every time somebody indicates they won't take joy in his death, people pipe in with some reason to hate Reagan.

We DID hate Reagan the President. Many hated Reagan the man. But in the end, he's just an old, very sick man who's suffered a great deal. I have to believe our common humanity can supercede politics, at least on some occasions.

[freetobegay]

8. Sorry there are alot of families that hurt & feel pain

Because of this man. I had no respect for him in life & he will not get it in death.

[Dookus]

14. exactly

a lot of families hurt and feel pain. We're better people because we recognize that and realize it could be us some day. We don't cheer their pain.

Nobody's asking you to reassess the Reagan presidency. But he is a human, a husband, a father, too. I just think humane people can take a day or two in recognition of that and hold back on the hate.

[freetobegay]

18. He is also a murderer.

Yes he is human, yes he is a husband, but so was Hitler & I would not ask the German people to take a day or two to hold back their hate of him.

I don't care if it's one or six million. A murderer is a murderer.

[Dookus]

23. ok

you're determined to miss the point. Enjoy his death.

[freetobegay]

28. I never said I would enjoy his death.

But I refuse to mourn it. There is a difference.

[jono]

30. Would you enjoy "spitting on his grave"? (nt)

[freetobegay]

32. Yes.

That has nothing to do with enjoying his death, if you want to get into semantics.

[jono]

38. This also has nothing to do with "mourning"

his death, if you want to continue with semantics.

[Rationality]

9. But this is a political forum. Why should we let humanity get in the way?

[jono]

13. Some of us place humanity at the root of our politics. (nt)

[Dookus]

15. Thanks jono

that's all I'm sayin'

But you said it much better.

[Rationality]

17. I honestly feel it's overrated.

I've seen enough Christofascism, warring, negative campaigning, "compassionate conservatism," and censorship to be deluded and diluted by that ideal. Like it or not, politicking is not an artform, it's a hit job.

[WindRavenX]

19. Agreed

Reagan is probably one of the worst presidents ever, and before W came along, he probably would have been the worst president since Nixon (which isn't a long time after Nixon, but oh well). He was a popular man for reasons I think a lot of us will never quite understand.
But I still don't believe in taking joy in other's pain, no matter who it is. Even Reagan, even W. It's hard, but it's just a matter of common humanity, like Dookus said.

[nofurylike]

25. o weep for eva braun, ya?

this vicious hearted man legislated programs designed to LOBOTOMIZE african american "**potentially** violent" (GET IT?!) teenagers; let poor people freeze TO DEATH - KNOWING HE WAS!!

he wanted us in extermination camps, for f-in.....


nevermind.

others said it better further down the thread, i see. thank you.

[nofurylike]

33. o, on the compassion side,

if there is an afterlife, he is about to get a soul's look at what he has done. that is Justice, at last.

may it make his a better soul.

[Dookus]

2. same here devilgrrl

He and his family have suffered almost unimaginable pain for a very very long time. The universe has had its way with them - my hatred won't add a thing and only diminish me.

We hate the far right because we think they're mean, nasty, indecorous, cruel and stupid. We shouldn't be like them.

[LibertyorDeath]

22. Dookus I understand your point & I'm torn because of stuff like

this

http://www.google.ca/search?q=ronald+reagan+death+squads+central+america&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

[Dookus]

37. I think

the "mistake", as I see it, as that a lot of people assume that if we call for humanity or decency toward him and his family at this point, that we somehow are less "worthy" of being good liberals.

Of course, I think doing so MAKES us good liberals. Refusing to vent hatred at the moment of his death is seen as going "soft" on Reagan. I think that's wrong. Nothing about his suffering or (impending) death have changed my views about his presidency one iota. I think it was awful.

I am not unaware of Reagan's legacy. I was in college when he was elected, and I hated him fiercely and opposed him every way I could. But that's totally irrelevant to the point, which is simply that there are times, or at least should be, when we can put aside partisan hatred in the name of simple decency. He was a lousy President who hurt a lot of people. The universe has gotten its revenge. We can still hate his presidency and recognize that an old, very sick human is dying, and reconnect a little with our common humanity.

I'm a liberal because of that humanity. If I were to disconnect from it entirely, I'd be a freeper.

[JI7]

41. great post

i agree.i hope others see this.

[LibertyorDeath]

47. common humanity. OK I have to think more about this

because my first reaction is where the f was his common humanity.

at the same time I know what your saying is true.

[JI7]

52. maybe his humanity does not depend on others having it also

[Rationality]

3. I'd dread his death... we don't need more sympathy votes

I do find it poetic though that after all he has done, he'd die with a blank conscience...

[Momof1]

4. He was a President and he deserves our respect

And anything else is just freaking bullshit.

[OneBlueSky]

20. have to disagree with you there . . .

if his being president means he deserves our respect, the same would apply to GWB, and that's someone I will never respect . . . as for Reagan, I will refrain from saying anything negative and have some empathy for what he's been through with the Alzheimer's . . . though I hated him as president, as one human to another I wish him well on whatever the next part of his journey happens to be . . .

[LibertyorDeath]

31. This is a joke right.

He was a President and he deserves our respect



And anything else is just freaking bullshit.

[Piperay]

49. Ask the repukes

if they will give respect to Clinton because he was President, if they say 'Yes' then I will give respect to Raygun. (I can easily make that pledge because it is something that because of their hateful attitude I know I would never be called upon to do.)

[Dookus]

53. well

if you use Freepers as your measure of humanity, you'll have a sad lonely life.

This is the same argument as saying that our torture in iraq wasn't as bad as Iraq's, therefore we shouldn't worry about it.

[Piperay]

68. Good point...

actually I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks for the wake up.

[NewEmanuelGoldstein]

64. No

He deserves our "respect" because he made a couple of crap movies with a chimpanzee. A chimpanzee!

[Momof1]

67. We are better than the Freepers.

Anyone who wins 2 terms in office deserves our respect. Now GWB on the other hand hasn't won one election yet. He is free game.

[bluestateguy]

5. Four years of George W. Bush can make anyone long for the Reagan years

Think of it, he was an excellent speaker, charismatic, intelligent. America was respected and liked around the world. His conservatism was overrated anyway. He left most of the New Deal welfare state intact anyway, and pretty much only gave lip service to the issue agenda of the Christian Right.

[Rationality]

7. Nevermind, I'll shut up now

Was I thinking Niccaugua?

[bluestateguy]

10. Bush Sr. invaded Panama

December, 1989.

[Dookus]

11. Not quite...

The Panama Invasion was the work of George H. W. Bush. But Reagan invaded Grenada and freed us from the threat of... well... he never really said.

[freetobegay]

12. He forgot! thats why he never said.

[nofurylike]

45. THIS you see is reagan's design. and more coming, set up then. n/t

[nofurylike]

55. he is their latter day saint of nuclear armageddon. n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

16. What's this ? Not even a wee jig

We could all hold hands and do a wee jig

We could start with Pinochet, then Thatcher then Reagan

Man the Reagan Koolaid is strong.

[mirandaod]

21. Geez, I saw this and thought he actually died...

I jumped to CNN to get the news....OK, so he's not dead yet.
He was a terrible president and he got this right wing, voodoo economics crap started...
He's met a terrible end, and my hating him won't make his lot any worse.
But not hating him doesn't mean we shouldn't state clearly the damage he did, which has continued to grow into the horrific situation we find ourselves in now.

[VolcanoJen]

24. Well, this thread is good practice, anyway.

I'm going to be on my best behavior when the news comes.

I refuse to be caught in that pre-set trap. They're expecting it, and we shouldn't give it. Just thank him for his service, bury the man, and be done with it. He was the American President, after all, and even I can swallow my pride. And believe me, I lived the Reagan Life, and walked the Reagan Walk, and it was not good.

I hope we can all just kinda zip it for a few weeks, you know? I'm not advocating muzzling... but I've only got so much anger to give, and I plan on training my eagle eye on the BFEE.

Reagan was just "Bad President Practice" before Bush Junior. Dookus said it first... and I agree wholeheartedly.

[Angelus]

26. Why not?

He was as bad as you get. He screwed over the poor. He fucked up the economy. Hell, he scared the country with that whole "Star Wars" shit.

He's a man not worthy of my respect.

[VolcanoJen]

27. He was as bad as you get?

Hey, I hated Reagan with the best of 'em. I hated his wife, I hated his cabinet, I hated his lobbies.

But he just wasn't "as bad as it gets." Something about three and a half years has brought me a little clarity on that issue.

Once again, I've only so much anger to give. I'll bury Reagan, and along with him, my bad memories attached to his reign. But, to be frank, Bush Junior makes Reagan look like Franklin Delano fuckin' Roosevelt.

[Angelus]

29. Good point.

[AlFrankenFan]

34. I agree, devilgrrl

I really don't like Reagan, and even though I wasn't alive during his reign in the White House, I've read enough about it to know I wouldn't have liked it. But still, I have enough respect to not stoop to what some Repubs would do if a Dem died.

[MrSlayer]

35. I see no point in reveling in his death.

I guess I just don't hate him enough. I was a kid when he got elected and I didn't follow politics back then. Looking back on history it's obvious he was not the greatest of people or Presidents but I don't despise him the way I do Chimp. Dying in this horrific manner should be enough punishment. To piss on his grave is overkill and unbecoming of the good guys.

[WilliamPitt]

40. Learn your history

Osama and Saddam were invented in the Reagan administration.

So were Rummy, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle. etc.

Duh?

You were a kid. Well, you're not anymore. Read a book. 'Way Out There in the Blue' by Frances Fitzgerald, or 'A Very Thin Line' by Theodore Draper.

Fucking read.

[Skittles]

42. Lordy William, without my glasses I thought you wrote that post

I was about to sh** bricks and PM you a serious history lesson!

[Dookus]

43. No will

why don't you fucking read?

NOBODY here has defended ANY of Reagan's actions as President. He was a shitty president. I've only said that about 30 times tonight. That has nothing to do with asking people to show a little goddamned humanity and basic decency.

But I see that even making that argument is futile. If you don't promise to take a shit on his casket, then you're a right-wing reagan-loving apologist.

Party on with your bad self.

[WilliamPitt]

44. And The Band Played On...

[Dookus]

48. Read it

what's your point?

Not only did I read it, I fucking LIVED it. I lived in San Francisco in the 80's. I don't need your condescending advice on reading material to know what happened.

But that has nothing to do with the point that our politics are entirely meaningless if they're not rooted in humanity.

[MrSlayer]

46. I love this, I'm being encouraged to hate.

What a role reversal, it's usually me happily marching scum to the death chamber and you guys all ripping me for it. I know all about who was spawned and what was done and I said that it was obvious that the guy was a bad President who allowed or ordered terrible things. But I just don't have the vehement hatred for him that you do. I'll save my grave dancing for Poppy and Chimp, thanks. I read plenty but thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out.

On the other hand, go fuck yourself. :D

[nofurylike]

54. yes!! n/t

[nofurylike]

36. death squads.

would you HONESTLY be saying these things about hitler dying?

honestly.

well, reagan considered us subhumans exactly the same as hitler did. look into some history. like human experimentation on prisoners, cattle prods to the sud afrikan government, and so on....

[Dookus]

39. yes

Reagan was Hitler. :eyes:

Nobody here is defending ANY of his actions. But look, I see that some people just live to hate. So go at it. I'm sure it's very rewarding.

[nofurylike]

50. would you say these things about hitler's death?

be honest.

rewarding?

agony.

like you'd care.....

[Dookus]

51. I don't buy

your premise that Reagan = Hitler.

[nofurylike]

56. would you say these thiings about hitler's death?

honestly.

if not, then you recognize and understand the reasons for what you're seeing here.

[Dookus]

57. Hrmm

I'm not getting my idea across.

REAGAN does NOT equal HITLER.

Your saying so repeatedly doesn't convince me of it, either.

That being said, I hated Reagan as President. I still think his presidency was awful. I don't know how many ways there are to say it. I think he sucked. He was bad. He was terrible. He was incompetent. He was a liar. He was an idiot. There, do you get it now?

My not expressing a desire to crap on his coffin does NOT mean I think any more of his presidency than you do. Seriously.

But I think it's possible to put aside partisan hatred at some moments. That doesn't make me a Reagan apologist, it doesn't mean I like him, it doesn't mean I'm less of a lefty. It just means I see politics as a tool to be used in the furtherance of humanity. Without any humanity, all the politics in the world wouldn't mean shit.

[nofurylike]

58. i missed the eye roll in your prior post.

i should not have taken the bait.

you ridicule those you disagree with.

even who are suffering.

then talk of humanity.


bye.

[Dookus]

59. huh?

whose suffering have I ridiculed?

[nofurylike]

60. THAT is how much humanity you have?

maybe read over all of these threads and ask yourself that? please.

it's all around you to see, if you care to.

i hope you will.

thank you for talking more about it though.


i must off now.


peace

[Dookus]

61. why not answer the question?

whose suffering did I belittle?

Am I to believe that you are "suffering" because we're having a discussion over how much to gloat over Reagan's death? If so, you have a phenomenally low threshold for pain.

[SideshowScott]

62. Ya know I agree..I don't think I will be happy when he dies

Well I wont be sad ether. But im not going to be laughing or dancing a jig or anything. He was a horrible president but he was a human being. Who was propped up by crooks and suffered enough in his later years with the disease. I'm not gonna give one of those " Thats what they do " Lectures but I'm not gonna be how i KNOW they will act when a Dem like Carter of Clinton passes on. The way the Rightys acted when Wellstone died made me shake with rage.
He did horrible things when he was president but I can thank Reagan for one thing. He made me a Die Hard Democrat for life.
Give him some peace BUT dont let the Republicans try to rewrite History about him when he was snoozing in the Oval office and was nothing but a figurehead while crooks ran the country.
Scott

[eurolefty]

63. Glad to see there is some humanity left in America

I felt sort of discouraged after all the torture pictures.

Mean people suck.
:yourock:

[Disturbed]

65. Reagon is dead.

Only his body is alive. I hated his politics and still do.
I am not mourning nor am I overjoyed by his death. I did not respect him in his life. I like one of his sons, Ron, though. ;)

[union_maid]

66. It would behoove us to behave in a civilized way

Reagan has been gone for years. There's no point in dancing on his grave. A lot of people loved him. I was not among them. I do believe that much of what we're dealing with today is his legacy, but it's not that simple either. I say let him go and let his fans mourn him and let's worry about what's going on right now.