Is Judaism Un-American ?

[ex_jew]

From the book "Faith or Fear: How Jews Can Survive in a Christian America" by Elliott Abrams.

"The free individual choice of which thinkers wrote, and which was sanctified in the U.S. Constitution, was absolutely contrary to the Jewish idea of covenant and commandment. Jewish law was about the collective, inherited obligation to God of an entire people. Could anything have been further from the modern notion that each individual must freely choose his faith? And could anything have been more subversive of the idea that Jews were by birth bound to 613 commandments than a philosophy suggesting that men were free at birth from any religious obligations whatsoever?"

(Quoted by Phillip Weiss in the New York Observer - link is
http://observer.com/pages/frontpage2.asp)

Judaism is a very OLD religion, certainly dating from before the Enlightment. Can it (or should it) be brought into consistency with the values on which our country was founded ? Your reaction please.

[wuushew]

1. Is Christianity un-American?

Seems like many of the same elements are present in it. Libertarian thought is incompatible with dogmatic religion.


Don't let anyone tell you the founding fathers were anything but secular saints.

[arcane1]

2. beat me to it

aren't MOST religions pre-Enlightenment?

:shrug:

[ex_jew]

4. Certainly they are, HOWEVER

do they involve a convenant between the Almighty and a collective understood to continue throughout all generations ? And if this is not the difference, do you belive that Abrams' argument would apply equally to all religions ?

[rogerashton]

10. Well, there is the Bahai World Faith

and Transcendentalist Unitarianism. (Unitarian Universalism being an organization but not a religion).

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

8. libertarian thought is dogmatic

The most dogmatic religion of modern times as far as I can tell. Rich people (well, mostly wanna-be rich people) telling us they should be dictators on their property? No thanks.

The USA would be MUCH WORSE OFF if it wasn't for Jewish people.

[Character Assassin]

3. What consistency? Judaism has plenty of differences of opinion

Reformed, conservative, orthodox, ultra-orthodox, etc...

There is no single 'it' to be brought into consistency with certain values.

[ex_jew]

6. So you're saying that Abrams is simply wrong ?

I can certainly accept that.

[papau]

14. yes - and stupid

:-)

[BurtWorm]

25. Of course Elliot Abrams is wrong!

How dare that immoral little shit speak for a whole religion or a whole people!

[Az]

5. Religion and loyalty

Any dogmatic authoratative religion is going to have issues with who to be loyal to. When a doctrine claims to be the ultimate and final word on a matter what import does a local government have.

Our society has enjoyed a sort of cognitive disonance for some time now. Religious belief held in check by social decorum. However the tide is changing and religious belief is once again trying to assert itself as the end all and be all of morality.

A person is first and foremost loyal to their beliefs. If a their nation and their beliefs conflict they will find it difficult to place their loyalties. As long as the state does not infringe on their religious beliefs they will not be pressed to react.

[hedda_foil]

7. This is extraordinarily scary.

Eliott Abrams is PNAC .... Jewish in name only, just as the neocon fundie xtians are Christians in name only. Judaism as practiced by at least 90% of American Jews is very much in tune with the enlightenment and the values on which this country was founded. It sounds to me like Abrams is getting ready to announce his conversion to fundamentalist xtianity.

Neoconism and PNAC are not about Judaism, or even about Israel. Their only god is power and their only means are fear, manipulation, and violence. None of these are in keeping with the basic tenets of Judaism.

If it suited these thugs, and at some time I have no doubt it will, they would have no hesitation at all in nuking Israel and converting to extreme xtianity ... which they would not believe in either. Whatever works for them at the time. If all else fails, they will convert, claim to be saved, and blame the rest of us Jews (who believe profoundly in the Constitution) for the horrors their cabal has wrought on America and the world. It doesn't matter what "religion" of convenience these monsters claim. They are all Nazis.

[tom_paine]

9. Thank you, Hedda. Well said

And of course, the Abrams doctrine ignores the evolution of Judiasm through the Talmud, Maimonides, etc.

"Rabbi, should I buy a Chrysler?"
"Could you rephrase that as an ethical question?"
"Rabbi, is it right to buy a Chrysler?"
"Yeeeesss. For great is the car with power streering and Dynaflow suspension!"
--Rabbi Krustofsky, "The Simpsons"

[papau]

15. well said - thanks for the smile

:-)

[ex_jew]

11. Thanks for the reassurance !

(if that's what it is). You identify a dangerous minority which has apparently lost the ability to balance one's own interests against those of humanity in general. And you state this condition has nothing to do with Judaism per se. Why have these people seized on Israel as a focus, and also please tell me how you think our future can be protected from such individuals.

I know I'm asking a lot !

[rucky]

16. I think us "little-j" Jews need to come out of hiding...

...or else we're in for a new wave of anti-semitism. thanks PNAC.

[Tinoire]

26. Remember that Lou Reed song? "We're Coming Out"?

Shalom!

Americans for Peace Now

Bat Shalom

Bereaved Families Forum

http://brittzedek.org[/a/a" target="_blank" target="_blank">Brit Tzedek V Shalom: Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace[br />

Grassroots International

Israeli-Palestinian Bereaved Families for Peace

International Solidarity Movement

Jewish Unity for a Just Peace (JUNITY)

A Jewish Voice for Peace

Jewish Voices Against the Occupation of Palestinian Territories (JVAO)

Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel

Gush Shalom

MADRE

Pax Christi International

Rabbis for Human Rights

Tikkun

Ta ayush: An Israeli-Arab partnership[br />



OTHER RESOURCES:

A historic wrong?
URL: http://www.fpif.org/outside/commentary/0112occupation.html
Description: Foreign Policy In Focus argues that the Israeli occupation is a historic wrong on the scale of slavery and apartheid, and that it must be ended in order to break the cycle of violence.

Americans for Peace Now
URL: http://www.peacenow.org/stand.html
Description: In their policy statement, Americans for Peace Now, the U.S. partner of the Israeli organization Shalom Achshav, compellingly argue that Israel has as much to gain from a Palestinian state as Palestinians do. APN believes that forging a lasting peace with the Palestinians is not only compatible with the Zionist position, but is necessary if Israel is to preserve its Jewish and democratic character.

Bitter Lemons
URL: http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl070102ed1.html
Description: In this edition of Bitter Lemons, a weekly cross-fire produced and edited by Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian, and Yossi Alpher, an Israeli, editorialists present Palestinian and Israeli views on the state of peace in the region. Although no consensus is reached per se, all contributors see the dead-locked peace process as the result of irrational mistrust and fear on both sides, as well as a failure to learn from past mistakes.

Brief History of Middle East Conflict
URL: http://www.mideastweb.org/BriefHistory.htm
Description: A summary of the history of the region from 2000 BC to the present.

Compassionate Listening Project
URL: http://www.mideastdiplomacy.org/clp.html
Description: The Compassionate Listening Project, a major initiative of the US-based MidEast Citizen Diplomacy group, brings together people from both sides of the conflict. By meeting and talking with the people they perceive as their enemies, participants begin to break down stereotypes and reconcile with each other.

Displaced Palestinians.
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=78
Description: One of the main obstacles in the way of the creating a lasting peace agreement is the question of whether displaced Palestinians should be allowed to return home. A good explanation of both Palestinian and Israeli views on this issue.

Effects of Israeli Occupation
URL: http://www.arij.org/paleye/
Description: Applied Research Institute's "Eye on Palestine" offers frequent reports on the regional effects of Israeli occupation.

Foundation for Middle East Peace
URL: http://www.fmep.org/
Description: The website of the Foundation for Middle East Peace contains articles and more comprehensive information on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The site publishes a biweekly settlement report, which according to the Foundation, is "known as the authoritative English-language source for information about settlements and the settler community" and "is used by diplomats, journalists, students and other interested parties in the Middle East, the United States and elsewhere for concise, accurate updates on this central aspect of Israeli policy in territories occupied in June 1967".

International Solidarity Movement
URL: http://www.palsolidarity.org
Description: "The International Solidarity Movement is a growing movement of Palestinian and international activists working to raise awareness of the Palestinian struggle for freedom and an end to Israeli occupation. We utilize non-violent, direct-action methods of resistance to confront and challenge the illegal Israeli occupation forces and policies."

Israel and September 11
URL: http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/04/news1.shtml
Description: " 'For Israel, September 11 was a Hanukkah Miracle,' Israeli political and security officials recently told the newspaper Ha'aretz. Thousands of American fatalities are considered a godsend -- in this cynical world -- because their deaths helped shift international pressure from Israel onto the Palestinians, while allowing the Israeli government to pursue its regional objectives unobstructed. And indeed, in the past months, the United States has unfalteringly supported all of Israel's actions."

Israel and the War on Terrorism
URL: http://www.counterpunch.org/loewenstein.html
Description: The Israeli/Palestinian peace process has been basically demolished. Israel has appropriated the "war on terrorism" rhetoric of America to justify its actions against Palestine, while the States have remained a strong backer of the Israeli regime, despite its history of human rights abuses.

Israel Primer
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=77
Description: Learn about everyday life under Israeli rule, the reasons that Arafat rejected Israel's "best offer yet," and how the Oslo process has curbed the freedom of Palestinians in the West Bank. Plus, some thoughts about how to criticize Israeli policies while remaining supportive of Israel itself, and the vulnerability of these policies to Western pressure.

Jerusalem
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=79
Description: The city of Jerusalem, holy for Jews, Muslims, and Christians, may well be the key to creating peace in the Middle East. This article summarizes the historical and religious significance of the holy sites within Jerusalem to each faith, as well as the options being considered by negotiators for this extremely significant city.

Jewish-Arab Center for Peace Programs
URL: http://www.inter.net.il/~givat_h/givat/ctcfaqs.htm
Description: The Givat Haviva Jewish-Arab Center for Peace Programs runs the Children Teaching Children project, through which Israeli and Palestinian children learn to cope with the violence and conflict that are a part of their everyday lives, and learn to think more critically and realistically about the situation.

Jewish Peace Fellowship
URL: http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org
Description: Members of the Jewish Peace Fellowship are a diverse group of people, religious and secular Jews from all our traditions and all branches of Judaism. All believe deeply that Jewish ideals and experience provide inspiration for a nonviolent way of life. We see Jewish tradition as a continual calling toward peace, justice and compassion, a tradition whose goal is to bring all people to the consciousness that peace and not war is where we should direct our vision, energy and lives.

Jewish Voice for Peace
URL: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Description: "A Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is a San Francisco Bay Area grassroots organization dedicated to the human, civil and economic rights of Jews, Palestinians, and all peoples in the Middle East. Beyond our focus on the Middle East, JVP aims to build a community of activists working together on issues of social and economic justice."

Meretz USA
URL: http://www.meretzusa.org
Description: Meretz USA: for Israeli Civil Rights and Peace is a tax-exempt educational organization that works to support full and genuine peace between the State of Israel and its neighbors in the Middle East, including the Palestinian people. The agency supports full civil and human rights for all who live in the State of Israel, as well as the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights, regardless of in whose political authority they dwell. Meretz USA firmly believes in and supports those both within and beyond the borders of outside the State of Israel working for a fair and just society for all within Israel.

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights
URL: http://www.pchrgaza.org/
Description: The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) is an independent legal body based in Gaza City dedicated to protecting human rights, promoting the rule of law, and upholding democratic principles in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Prospects for Peace
URL: http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/
Description: A compelling and thought-provoking analysis that portrays the peace process as doomed to fail as long as it remains inconsistent with the national goals and identities of both Israelis and Palestinians. According to this article, both sides see a continuation of the conflict as preferable to the painful compromises that might bring about peace.

Rebuilding Homes
URL: http://www.RebuildingHomes.org
Description: The Rebuilding Homes Campaign brings together Palestinians, Israelis and Internationals to rebuild homes in Palestine. In the tradition of Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, this Palestinian and Israeli partnership is peacfully resisting the policies of Occupation by rebuilding demolished Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, the West Band and Gaza.

Speaking Tours
URL: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/ens/2000-026.html
Description: The 70-year-old-plus wife of a former American diplomat organizes speaking tours of America by Middle Eastern women through her small organization called Partners for Peace. These women relate their personal experiences of living with the fear, war, and violence in their homeland, in the hope that Americans will gain a better understanding of the situation and want to help. The speaking tours have been phenomenally successful.

Ta'ayush Arab-Jewish Partnership
URL: http://taayush.tripod.com
Description: A group of Israeli citizens, both Arab and Jews, involved in direct action in and out of the territories.

Time line for Israeli / Palestinian conflict
URL: http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm
Description: A time line of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict from 1914 to 2001.

U.S. Involvement in Israel / Palestine
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=80
Description: 2006 will be the 50th year of American efforts to bring about an Israeli/Palestinian peace. The BBC's article on this coming anniversary summarizes these diplomatic efforts, and their failure thus far.

[rucky]

27. Thanks! I was hoping they were out there...

...but all ya hear about these days is AIPAC, AIPAC, AIPAC. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!

[bryant69]

12. More to the point

What does Weiss suggest we do about it? I mean if we say that Judaism (or Christianity for that matter) is incompatable with American ideals, what is our next step? Does Weiss suggest disenfranchising Jews? Barring them from political office?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[papau]

13. LOL -"free at birth from any religious obligations sanctified in the U.S.

free at birth from any religious obligations sanctified in the U.S. Constitution -LOL

Sorry – but laughing out loud is the only response to the above that comes to mind.

Can a religion be brought into consistency with the values on which a country was founded is not so obviously stupid – and it is the reverse of Islam’s call to bring a country into consistency with the values of Islam. But I do not accept Islam’s call for consistency and I do not accept this call for consistency as valid, justified, logical, moral, ethical, or appropriate.

The 2 Main Jewish religions we have, the Christ centered “Christianity” and the Torah centered “Judaism,” each have more than 40 flavors from Orthodox to very “liberal” variations (albeit they both end up at the “Liberal” Unitarian Church with a discussion of ethics).

Given the closeness of the Founding Father’s vote to use English over German for this nation, I am curious about any votes by those same founding fathers as to religion. And I am curious as to what consistency means given that the 613 (plus 10) were down to 2 summary rules by the time of Jesus, and indeed Jesus rephrased those 2 rules when he said all the law is summed into Love thy God, and Love thy neighbor.

What do you see as an axiom of either variation of the Jewish religion that needs to be changed to make a given value of this country (please be specific) consistent with that axiom?

[ex_jew]

19. Are you asking me, Abrams or Weiss ?

I've already identified myself as someone who no longer follows the religion of my forefathers, so I wouldn't presume to recommend a course leading to consistency. My basic goal is to ask whether an inconsistency exists. I see no inconsistency between Jesus's two laws and the laws of our country. I DO see an problem when the interests and obligations of a collective (the Jewish people, now and into the future) are made strictly paramount. I believe a major principle underlying our republic is that no ONE group affiliation will determine all policy preferences. If it ever became the case that every single Jewish person gave unqualified allegiance to the state of Israel, this WOULD be a problem.

[papau]

20. If you find value in Elloit's thought, I am asking you - otherwise it's

only a comment phrased as a question.

Hey us English as a second lanuage kids need some slack - esp. when we are on SS!

:-)

[alfredo]

17. Members of the Christian reconstructionist

movement want America under Judaic law. I believe the past owner of ES&S voting machines and Republican California mover and shaker is a part of that movement. I wonder if Abrams is associated with them.

I know he was involved with Ollie North, who in turn was involved with Neo Fascist like Rev Moon and Larry Pratt.

[JackSwift]

18. I happen to really love Jewish people

and their way of thinking. Although the Israel issue tends to soften that out for me. I would prefer my neighbors be Jewish than just about anything else.

[Mairead]

21. Short answer: No.

All the major religions are pre-Enlightenment. And it shows :(

But Diasporic Judaism has long been recognised as one of the least-harmful religions. The respect for people, for probity, for learning--these are all greatly to Judaism's credit.

Perhaps those qualities are all a function of the Diaspora, though, because it certainly seems true that the Israelis --most of European rather than actual Semitic stock, so that might make a difference-- are just as vicious and intolerant as the worst soi-disant Xians.

[ex_jew]

23. So the Diaspora is key - an accident of history !

I've thought this myself. Diaspora Jews were spared the responsibility of managing a state, with all the ethical baggage this entails. And you had the (sometimes) fruitful effects of envountering other cultures. But now that the Diaspora is seemingly over, or at least there is no positive reason why Jews should NOT live in Israel, what will be the next development ?

[starroute]

22. The Enlightenment brought Jews out of the ghettos

Over the last 300 years, Jews have prospered wherever Enlightenment values have been dominant and have fared worst at the hands of those like the Nazis who were fanatically anti-Enlightenment.

If American Jews think for one moment that they have would any place in an explicitly Christian America, they are terribly, terribly deluded. I don't know the context of Abrams' remarks, but I find it frightening that this line of thought would even be presented.

[PsychoDad]

24. Anti-american...

I guess that would depend on 2 things...

1)what you as an adherent to the religion belive the values and teachings are.
2) What you percive American values to be.


To be honest, considering the direction of our government, I'd say most religions are "anti-American", Unless you are a fundi right wing christian.

[Skinner]

28. This subject line is extremely inflammatory.

It is just flamebait.

If you wish to discuss this article, you may do so. But you must be more sensitive than to tack on a subject line like this one.

I am locking.

Skinner
DU Admin