NASA: Alarm over melting Arctic ice cap

[narcjen]

Interesting.

---------

The north polar ice cap is melting at an alarming rate due to global warming, NASA scientists said today, with satellite images showing the ice cap continuing to shrink.

"It is happening now. We cannot afford to wait a long period of time for technological solutions," said David Rind of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York.

"Change is in the air - literally."

The part of the Arctic Ocean that remains frozen all year round shrank at a rate of 10 per cent per decade since 1980, NASA researcher Josefino Comiso said.

That cap reached record lows in 2002 and 2003, he added.








link1

Record Arctic ice loss

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. But Bush says there's no such thing

as global warming! And he's our President, so it must be so! </sarcasm>

[Leprechan29]

2. Global Warming is real

But are those pictures from the same season?

[kalian]

4. Well....take a look at this pic....

Sea ice in September: Lavender line indicates a more typical ice extent (median for 1988-2000)

[Leprechan29]

7. Thats...um...yeah.

That works.

[Paradise]

13. :) lol you're bad. lol :) nt

[onethatcares]

17. check out the permafrost melt in Alaska,

the drunken trees, the homes that tilt this way and that. It's coming back to haunt us all.

Where I live, there used to be rain showers everyday from may to sept 7 am and 4 pm. now that the condos have been built, that sea breeze hits them, turns upward and the showers occur 40-60 miles inland. Not to mention the untold amount of mangroves/scrub forest that has been cut down for voluntary concrete prisons. We're losing the battle with mother nature. She'll just reclaim what's hers.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. That would be where?

Where do you live?

[Beaker]

56. profile says st.petersburg FL...

and personally, i'm not buying the idea that a condo development has changed the rainfall pattern.

[Gman]

3. Actually, Bush sees this as a very good thing

as it is opening up the fabled Northwest Passage to year round ship traffic which could greatly reduce shipping costs between the US, Asia and Europe.

[TexasMexican]

8. OMFG

thats pretty damn funny. I bet if the trend continues someone will give that a try and make tons of money too.

[mot78]

11. Won't matter if our greatest shipping port are under water

[indigobusiness]

31. That's the crux

of the biscuit.

[mom cat]

34. Just think how much Halliburton and Bechtel could make on the rebuilding!

[TexasMexican]

5. My idea to save the world

okay supposidly the biggest problem with the ice caps melting, other than the rising water levels is that it will fuck up the ocean currents and thus the whole weather system. Supposidly the currents wont flow as well if the water is less salty.

In the future, the US will need tons more water, and well the ocean will literally have tons more water. Lets build a shitload of desalinization plants to get all the fresh water we need, and lets just dump all the salt back into the ocean where it will do the most good. Lets build Desal plants for the whole world if need be.

[narcjen]

6. What's up with those those guys at NASA anyway

What a bunch of kooks. If they think they know more than someone like Boosh who gets his advice straight from the Almighty himself, they must be crazy! :D

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Related information on climate change...

Abrupt Climate Change
<http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/climatechange_wef.html>

Excerpt:

"Are we overlooking potential abrupt climate shifts?
Most of the studies and debates on potential climate change, along with its ecological and economic impacts, have focused on the ongoing buildup of industrial greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and a gradual increase in global temperatures. This line of thinking, however, fails to consider another potentially disruptive climate scenario. It ignores recent and rapidly advancing evidence that Earth’s climate repeatedly has shifted abruptly and dramatically in the past, and is capable of doing so in the future."


Abrupt Climate Change - more links from Wood Hole Institute
<http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/ct_abruptclimate.htm>


Ocean Forces Threaten Our Climate
<http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/gribbin.asp>

Excerpt:

"In the case of the North Atlantic, heat is carried northward and eastward by the Gulf Stream. This current warms the coast evenly through the year, in winter as well as summer. Averaged over a year, the Gulf Stream provides Western Europe with a third as much warmth as the Sun does.

This ocean warmth is so important to Europe that climatologists are seriously concerned about the stability of the Gulf Stream. If it switched off, Europe would be plunged into a mini-Ice Age. And current studies suggest that the unseen river in the North Atlantic is dangerously fickle."


All you ever wanted to know about climate change
<http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/climate/climatefaq.jsp>

Excerpt:

"Local climate could also be altered by changes in ocean circulation. Western Europe could be particularly vulnerable. At present, it is kept exceptionally warm in winter by the Gulf Stream, which is part of the ocean conveyor belt (see 'Are there other complications?' above). Take that away and British weather would be like the Hudson Bay in Canada, which is at the same latitude. If the conveyor belt slackens, or the path of the Gulf Stream shifts, that is precisely what could happen. So British hopes of a climate like Bordeaux in the 21st century could be cruelly dashed!

Surely that's a bit sensationalist?

Not really. Ice cores reveal growing evidence of sudden, dramatic shifts in climate over the past 10,000 years that have occurred within a few decades as a result of "flips" in ocean circulation."

[narcjen]

10. Nice links, thanks

I'm no scientist, but ever since taking an introductory oceanography course in college (to fulfill my science requirement), this subject has fascinated me.

[Paradise]

12. i don't know the scientific term for it but

this kind of change, once effected, continues, and increases ever more rapidly; sort of like feeding upon itself. scientists understand this nature's pattern of snowballing (no pun intended), however this administration is either ignorant or doesn't care or both. nasa has reason to be alarmed.

Interesting, as your post is, narcjen:

"Earth in the Balance: Ecology and the Human Spirit, by Al Gore

Immigration
Global warming will cause Third World flight to the West."

http://www.ontheissues.org/Earth_in_the_Balance.htm

[lanparty]

14. If the conveyer belt shuts down ...

We are literally FUCKED!!!!!

Our only hope could be re-salinating the North Atlantic at a rate GREATER than melting ice PLUS the fresh water that has ALREADY melted.

Something tells me that Haliburton would get a no-bid contract to perform the operation.

[Paradise]

15. lol, thanks lanparty.

we gotta laugh or we're dead, now. :)

[indigobusiness]

30. Good info, Paradise... This is serious as a heart attack

Well over a decade ago, Bob Hieronimus sent me a packet of info from Borderland Research that clued my into the impending threat of the Gulfstream shutting down as a result of the desalinization of the N Atlantic.

The speed of the current meltdown, as a result of record CO2 in the atmosphere (never before has it been at these levels without an ice-age occurring) followed by the shifting reversal from a warming to a cooling planet, as a result, is almost impossible to get across to people. The time frame is understandably difficult to feature. And the resulting migration of people and animals is a story maybe Jules Verne could tell.

While it is easier to talk about now, than it was in past years, even scientists are having a hard time getting their minds arounds the speed at which catastrophic change like this can happen.

At least you hear terms like "potential" more judiciously used.

[Alerter_]

16. the only question is whether this is man made

There is plenty of reason to believe global warming is due to pollution and human activity. There is a distinct possibility that we're in a natural periodic cycle that we have no control over.

Either way reducing pollution is a good thing.

[BANGARANG]

18. Sure

I believe in global warming. Say you have a glass of ice water. You let it sit in a room at room temperature until all of the ice melts. What happens? The level of the water goes down, because water expands when it freezes. Now wouldn't the same thing happen in the oceans? Am I completely wrong? Is this old news? Enlighten me.

[Imperialism Inc.]

19. Wrong about what?

That ice takes up more space than water? No.

However, most glaciers are not sitting in the ocean. Perhaps that is what you have failed to realize? If I hold an ice cube above a glass of water and let it drip in the glass. What happens to the level of water in the glass then?

[narcjen]

21. Try an experiment

1) Drop a few ice cubes in glass of water. Mark the water level with a marker on the glass.

2) Let the ice cubes melt. See if the water level has gone past the mark or not.

[Imperialism Inc.]

22. Here is a link to back you up :)

It is actually not so simple as the original guy or myself implied. To be honest I, wrongly, thought his statement about water level was correct. But my point was valid in that melt from glaciers and mountaintops are introducing new water not just changing forms. Also, to consider is water flow. As the ice metls it has to go somewhere so even if the water level were to drop it doesn't mean that flooding would not occur in the areas where the melting was happneing. The topology of the earth, currents, tides etc are pretty complex things (but that isn't what the scientists are talking about).

http://www.grow.arizona.edu/water/buoyancy/buoyancymetingice.shtml
Question: Does melting ice cause a rise in the water level?

(flash animation)

Findings: The water level remains the same as the ice melts.
Reason: the volume of water displaced by the ice equals the weight of it. The volume of water displaced by the melted ice equals the weight of it. These will both be the same volumes so the water level does not change when the ice melts.
A large iceberg will not change the level of the water when it melts. The melting of icebergs will not cause the water to rise from buoyancy effects as in this experiment. There can be a rise in water level over the earth if the polar ice cap melted from global heating but that is mainly due to the average water temperature increasing slightly and the water expanding slightly resulting in an increase in water level. Even if the polar ice did not melt but the average temperature of the earth increased then the average ocean water level will rise due to expansion of the slightly warmed ocean waters. This is one of the worries about global warming.

[narcjen]

25. Right..

the melting of polar ice indicates the ocean is warming up. This would cause the sea level to rise because of the resulting expansion of water when heated.

The smaller ice cap means more sunlight is getting aborbed into the ocean instead of being reflected back into space by the ice, feeding the warming trend of the ocean. Polar ice melt is an effect rather than a cause of rises in sea level.

[indigobusiness]

35. The plot thickens

as the north polar cap melts, the ice is thickening at the s pole...even as the ice shelves in Antactica are breaking up. Everything is suddenly becoming counterintuitive. And while it is true that the north cap is over water the s cap isn't.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Imperialism Inc.]

43. I can't help but wonder what this person might have said to get

deleted.

Narcjen's knowledge of science must have really ticked him off. lol.

[tjwash]

45. It's called displacement.

Most of the north pole ice sits on the ocean already displacing the same amount of water as it would if it melted. However most of the ice on the south pole is sitting on land, and if melted would cause a marked rise in the ocean level. Of course you are also not taking into consideration, the ice sitting on the tops of all the mountain ranges, or tundra regions.

[Eloriel]

49. Or ON Greenland, and Iceland n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

24. Oh snap

Oxyboy himself used this exact analogy earlier this week when discussing this topic. Nice....

[PaDUer]

32. Interesting that it was

the same response, makes you wonder. hmmm

[immoderate]

29. You are in error.

The level of water in the glass will stay the same.

As the ice melts, the density of the resulting water increases. It will take up the same amount of space as the submerged portion of the ice.

Sea levels would rise if the south polar caps melt though. Because that ice sits on land and the resulting water will flow into the ocean.

--IMM

[mom cat]

37. It's both warming and cooling that are the problems

The warming part is what is happening on a global scale. That warming is causing
1. Water in the oceans to expand.
2. The Greenland ice pack to melt.
3. Melting of the polar ice cap
All of that is raising the sea levels.
Then:
With the melting of the polar ice and the Greenland ice, an overwhelming amount of colder, less saline water is entering the North Atlantic. When that happens, it has a chilling effect on the North Atlantic current that brings warm water from the tropics. Without that warm water, the land masses that border the North Atlantic can face a rapid cooling... a new ice age. Rapid climate changes have happened in less than a decade on this planet. Half of the warming from the last ice age happened in about three years as I remember. I will recheck this, but I believe that is accurate. I will post the link as soon as I find it.
Anyway, that is the short version of an answer to your question.

[misanthrope]

57. That's not right either,...

...the fresh water melt entering the oceans is not colder. Salinated water reaches lower temperatures than fresh water (didn't you ever make ice cream?). The currents of flow in the oceans, and their relationship with meteorology, are a complex thing. Suffice to say that the change in the Gulf Stream would occur, but mainly because that conveyor belt is driven by rapidly plunging (and saltier) cold water from the northern latitudes moving toward the equator at deep levels. Lower the seas' salinity via dilution and all of this changes.

[Kool Kitty]

40. You're correct about the "ice cube in a glass of water"

scenario. But much ice rests on land, like Antarctica. When THAT ice melts, then the sea level rises, see? Feel enlightened now?

[misanthrope]

42. Not quite...

...Ever heard of "displacement"? The water level in that glass will not change as the ice melts. Polar melt will affect the sea levels, not as a result of what's happening in the northern hemisphere, but as a result of Antarctic melt. The majority of the ice at the South Pole lies on a land mass, not in the ocean. It's volume has yet to be added to the sea level equation. Last stat I heard was that such occurence would result in sea level accumulation of approximately 240 feet.

And while water indeed expands as it reaches solid state (ice), it also begins to expand when climbing toward gaseous state (vapor).

[Toots]

54. Yes you are completely wrong

The ice is not in water but over land. As it melts the water runs off the land into the sea thus adding to it. Rush used your exact same argument. Who'd a thunk it.

[alfredo]

23. We've had three days of

tornadoes. and possibly another ahead for us.

Today we had to take shelter 3 times.

[indigobusiness]

38. keep your dauber up

and your head down.

[alfredo]

39. We will be hit with more storms that should

last until 4 AM. I am too tired to worry, but I will sleep in the basement.

[Kool Kitty]

41. Damn. Good luck to you.

I was watching the Weather Channel tonight and they said (if I'm remembering correctly) that there were 150 tornadoes reported in the Midwest over the last three days. Is that possible? God Almighty.

[Eloriel]

50. There were EIGHTY-FOUR in one day just recently

I'm trying to remember where -- Midwest somewhere -- Nebraska? SD? Somewhere.

[Doctor_J]

26. JUNK SCIENCE!!!!

that's why kyoto was "fundamentally flawed" :eyes:. I wonder if Smirk could find the North Pole on a globe.

[PaDUer]

33. He wouldn't have a clue! n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

52. He'd point to Ollie's zipper.

Thank you, ladies and germs.

[meow mix]

27. how do the "its not mans fault" - people, explain this?

just wondering...

[Solon]

47. That is actually the crux of the problem...

one thing that I haven't heard accounting for is, if mankind, by dumping billions of tons of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere, is not the primary factor in Global Climate Change. Then what is?

We know the CO2 and many other gases, in sufficient concentration, do cause warming, look at Venus. Unless the Sun is heating up, what could be the other source for the CO2?

[narcjen]

28. NASA global warming video

video
requires quicktime

NASA website
more videos and diagrams

[Gregorian]

44. Well DUH!

When millions of barrels of oil are burned every day, that heat has to affect something. It's quite simple. It's as simple as holding onto an exhaust manifold with the engine running. It's about a thousand degrees.
And so the ice caps are melting.

The solution is pretty simple. Stop combusting fuels.

And to do that, I see very little in the way of making progress, unless we decrease our population.

But there's another side to this. One that contains futility. And that is that nothing lasts forever. What'd you expect? Even the sun will burn out.

My gripe is that the real quality of life, not the one politicians blab about, but the one which includes successive generations of humans to go about living their lives. And the one which includes people like me, who'd worried and stressed for the last thirty years over this, to live their lives too.

[narcjen]

46. Like someone else said,

there's a chance that all the scientists are wrong and that somehow the global warming is just part of a natural cycle that humans have no control over. Even with much of the scientific data pointing toward human activity as the source of this warming, there's no way to know for sure.

Having said that, I would rather that we erred on the safe side and act as if global warming were a real threat. Stop treating the earth as if it were a dumpster. Is that too much to ask? I don't even know if its possible to stop global warming no matter what we do. But the alternative might be akin to playing Russian roulette with the future of the earth and perhaps the very existence of mankind. Do we want to take that gamble?

edit: sp.

[bpilgrim]

48. "Threat to the world (Climate Change) is greater than terrorism" Pentagon

· Secret report warns of rioting and nuclear war
· Britain will be 'Siberian' in less than 20 years
· Threat to the world is greater than terrorism

Mark Townsend and Paul Harris in New York
Sunday February 22, 2004
The Observer

Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters..

A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.

The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the few experts privy to its contents.

'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.'

peace

[underpants]

51. So NASA joins insurance giant Swiss Re and the PENTAGON in warnings

All say global warming is a bigger threat than terrorism.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4438266/
Swiss Re

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.html

[whosinpower]

53. Perhaps "The day After Tomorrow"

Perhaps the movie being released now is somehow prophetic - in a bit of an exaggerated hollywoodized manner.

[LeftHander]

55. Bush: Polar Ice Cap = Sno-Cone <nm>