Who here believes in divine intervention...

[Andy_Stephenson]

I mean does it exist? Are we led at times by an invisible hand? I say and use hand metaphorically. I am not a Christian in the fundie sense...But I do believe there is a spirit world a 5th dimension if you will. From which the ancestors talk to us. Not in a voice mind you...but in occurrences. There are times I feel like forces beyond my control guide. Or am I just being silly? I hate waking up early contemplating philosophical questions. The weight of the world crashes in in unsual ways sometimes.

[Nevernose]

1. Yes, it exists

God (insert definition of higher power here) is speaking to each and every one of us, every moment of every day. Some of us are just listening more closely than others.

[Andy_Stephenson]

4. I can tell you the exact moment and day I was "plugged in."

since then...I feel it everyday...call it spirituality if you will.

[Nevernose]

23. Well? I'm waiting.

Let's hear it. I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours.

[moof]

45. And what do you say when anyone suggests that this idea

is what allows many people to tune out and blindly follow bu*sh and what ever he says because after all he is listening real close to his pooka.

Personally it seems most of the people here at DU that feel similar to the way GB&C does, are selling themselves short. They have picked up the banner and are fighting the good fight the best they can and win lose or draw they will have done their best against a game rigged to the teeth. It is another of the cruel ironys that the invocation of a pooka helps bu*sh in many many ways but there is no way to use the same talisman to defeat him and his band of liars and thiefs. After all isn't it clear that there is a deity and it is on his side, the traitor lost the election in 2000 but yet he sits in the oval office.
Does anyone here doubt that they would have said that would require a miricle if asked about it back in 1998 ?

[Beaker]

2. i pity the fool that doesn't believe in Divine intervention...

[Beaker]

6. or the 5th dimension...

Soulful sophistication and smooth harmonies with that touch of class.

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. Divine...

Rocked!

[Andy_Stephenson]

18. Female trouble?

Was it...

[mopaul]

3. who knows? not me

can anyone really say? it's all so abstract and mysterious. the cosmos, so very large, we so very small.

mark twain had a joke: two men see the grand canyon for the first time. one drops to his knees to tearfully thank god for this awesome spectacle and magnificent creation, the other said, 'well i'll be goddamned!'.

i fall into the latter category

[Andy_Stephenson]

5. Love the new sig line!

it rocks!

[Spazito]

7. Whether we use the expression "What goes around, comes...

around", divine intervention" or "a higher power", it comes down to, I believe, there are occurrences that cannot be satisfactorily explained away. I have decided to just accept that and "leave it to the fates", to use yet another expression.

[Jose Diablo]

9. I believe so.

I hear a pretty good Sec of State for the state of Washington is in the making.

Isn't that a form of divine intervention? Or will we just say people did it all on their own?

[Andy_Stephenson]

12. Ok this is what I mean....

Why me? Why am I doing this? I never thought about being a politician. I cannot explain why I started this quest. I am facing incredible odds in this race. An opponent with far more financial resources...a machine...and the backing of the state party leadership. Who am I? A nobody...that I presume to challenge the "king"? BTW I am feeling old this morning.

Early Sunday philsophy...sheez. I could have picked rhododendrons to talk about.

[Jose Diablo]

16. Why not you

You know how corrupt it all is. You feel a need to make a difference. People sense this. They will vote for you because they like what you want to do.

Is it divine? Maybe.

Maybe something in you makes people want you. Is that divine?

It will work out how its supposed to work out. Suit-up and show-up, thats your part.

[Andy_Stephenson]

17. Suit-up and show-up.....

I do. Just like Pavlov's dog.

[Jose Diablo]

Just remember this

all of us here at DU are with you. How ya fixed for resources? Need help?

Ya caught me kinda flush.

[2Design]

29. Goethe calls it providence in the poem he/she wrote

Once you make a decision, Providence steps in and all sorts of support comes your way........

do a search on the name and you will find the poem....

Peter Centera sung about it.... one small voice inside.... don't remember the name of the song but it is that still voice that leads...

once you hear it, you want to hear again... and when it comes again and again....you finally realize when you listen.... things go better...

So I think it is great you are running for a position. And with that decision will come support if that is where the energy flows....

It is called "chi" in some cultures. The voice and energy when they work together....that is when you feel peaceful and calm..

Thanks for this spiritual thought on a Sunday morning. And who could say we did not go to church. We had a chance to meditate on a very spritual thought and soak it up into our being.....

:grouphug: :bounce: :party:

[Karenina]

10. Pixie dust, alien invasion...

at this point I'll take whatever good we can get. :silly:

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. Pixie dust

thay sell that at 7-11 in paper tubes...don't they?

[Beaker]

11. what gets me-

is when religious type people say that it's arrogant to question their god, or god's motives-
but those same people don't see the arrogance inherent in the concept of "divine intervention"...

[woofless]

14. Yes. I suffered a devastating motorcycle accident

back in '96. My first conscious thought lying on my back on the pavement was the complete assurance that I would survive. The calm that assurance imparted to me is indescribable. EVERYONE around me for days was unsure of my survival, even those in the trauma center, and certainly my family. I was unable to communicate, so was unable to convey the calm I felt. It definately helped my recovery and gave me reason to believe I had purpose. We are all of the same stuff as the universe and all share the intelligent benevolence.

[Andy_Stephenson]

15. intelligent benevolence.

Exactly....that is how I would describe it.

[undergroundpanther]

26. But not all things are intelligent or benevolent

There is a hurtful thing,

the thing that forces the living to destroy to live,and it kills all life anyway.
There is a force that makes a person do wrong things because they can get away with it,a force that fosters illusions like elitism ,success and power.

Divine intervention it probably goes on,I guess because there is so much that's unknown..Why not?
But for every good thing there is also anti divine intervention and part of it is deliberately chosen by people like the choice to help or be kind one can choose to be an ass..,part of both types of divinity are enabled,and part of it is found in the struggles within the nature of this horribly flawed existence.
To me the creator of this world(kind of existence) is either a monster or an idiot or both.The true divinity is in this world too,but it brings something that is very opposite the ways of this sick world by loving it, healing it,and it is also transcendent at the same time.We rely on it to get relief from suffering here and it relies on us to bring itself here stronger.
The negative anti-divine..it too relies on us to do it's damage here and it relies on us to keep on choosing to manifest deeds and suffering here.
I dunno if this anti divine force is transcendent or not,Entropy and natural disaster phenomena does occur in the universe without a consciousness like ours directing it.. so..

I just try to be better than this world even if it makes surviving in this life harder because I'd rather see thew jewels in people instead of making more of the shit this world has no trouble making from everyones hopes,dreams and lives here..

[immoderate]

22. So what caused the "accident?"

--IMM

[Maeve]

30. I had a similar experience

My car overturned and I had a distinct impression of being told "You're going to be all right." So I folded my hands and calmly watched the world go upside down. I had to have help getting out of the car (hanging from my seatbelt, y'know) and I got a minor bump on the head, but I think that still qualifies as "all right."

Once you have such an experience, it's hard to be an "unbeliever" again.

[immoderate]

34. I'm glad you didn't really need that seatbelt!

This is fun.

--IMM

[acmavm]

19. Yes, definitely. There is a power, a spirit (I chose to believe in God)

that can take the hopeless situation and turn it around without rational explanation.

When I was young I used to stay in the country with my Great-Grandparents. I loved Grandpa more than anyone in the world. But he used to do some pretty crazy stuff. My uncle owned a great big trailer court and a ton of land. He used to lease some of the land out to a farmer who used it to plant corn.

Grandpa was a pyromaniac in a way. He would set fires to burn out 'weeds', anyway that's what he said. Usually nothing bad happened. But one day in the fall, when the corn was ready to be harvested and plants were starting to dry out he set a fire that got out of control and headed straight for the cornfield (and there was a house right behind it with people living in it). I was SOOOOO afraid and I knew my great-uncle (his son) would go nuts if things started burning up, so I just stood there and freaked. Then all of a sudden I decided that I had to try to do something. So I ran into the woods by the railroad tracks into a place I had never explored before, although I'd frequently go into the woods and down to an old collapsed damn and troll around. So help me, this is the God's truth. About 20 feet from where I ran into the woods I found three things. The first and the wildest was an old railroad pump, and it still pumped water. The second was a big can, and the third was an old broken spade. It took me hours, but I got that damn fire put out.

The one thing I remember is begging God to help me, to help me find some way to stop the fire. And I remember a feeling that to this day I can't explain, a knowledge of some sort that told me to run into the woods right at that place and I would find what I needed.

You may think that this is a strange, stupid, quaint little story, but you don't know my family, and you don't know how much I loved Grandpa. I knew I had to do something to stop that fire, and I knew I had to protect him. And I had some kind of help, something outside of myself. I KNOW THERE IS A HIGHER POWER.

What we need to understand that sometimes when we ask for something, we get it. Sometimes when we ask, the answer is no, not this time. You just have to take it on trust, just like almost everything else in this life. And when you are faced with situations and people that you know are untrustworthy, it is our responsibility to make things right. God (or whoever) helps those who help themselves.

[immoderate]

24. Why didn't it just rain?

--IMM

[acmavm]

42. Because that was not how it was meant to be, and because that would

not have provided me with the lesson that I needed to learn, that along with help comes effort and work to accomplish what is necessary.

No amount is sarcasm will ever change my mind from what I know. Sarcasm is a constructive tool in the appropriate situation and at the right time. This is not it.

[immoderate]

44. That wasn't intentional sarcasm.

You are saying that these items, pump, spade, etc. were not there until your grandfather set the fire. And the same entity put some thought into your head to seek them, and made you do those things, and brought about your success.

Can incidents like this happen without divine intervention?

How does one know what is "meant to be?"

"Sarcasm is a constructive tool in the appropriate situation and at the right time. This is not it."

On second thought, I guess I meant to be sarcastic. And I was thinking that your statement was a kindness, as I don't normally associate sarcasm and constructive. And my impression is you are a kind person. But I think you hit on something. I was sarcastic, and while smart-assedness was surely a motivation, my intention was also to be constructive. That is, I truly believe what I am saying here and other places in this thread.</seriousness>

And if now is not the time, when is? As Sam Kinnison said, "I just want to help."


--IMM

[2Design]

32. this is the type of spirit that is great ...you feel it and respond

The spirit is something we listen to and respond and then know later if we listen that we were guided. You were blessed in being able to hear.

I think children hear much better. Especially before age 7. They seem to have an innate ability to hear and touch God/spirit/universal energy/may the force be with you type of knowing.

That is a visual of what I feel/believe. May the force be with you. And it was with you on that day.

[NJCher]

43. what a story

You had me on the edge of my seat all the way through, acmavm!


Cher

[brokensymmetry]

20. I do.

It happens in many ways, great and small.

Thanks for starting this thread...

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. Maybe you're possessed????

:evilgrin:

Whatever, keep doing it!

[The Zanti Regent]

25. Sorry, I don't see it

Walk in my shoes.

In 1982, I was "drafted" to taks disability claims from people who contracted what was then called GRID (Gay-Related-Immunity-Disorder). I had to scrub up and wear surgeon greens, shields, mask and gloves while I took the applications that no one else would do. I heard the stories of how Covenant House under "Father" Bruce Ritter was in reality a gay prostitution ring. Made me sick. Especially the teenagers forced into prostitution and dying that awful death. After dealing with this, I became a hard core pro-choice supporter.

I also worked in the Los Angeles Skid Row missions, back in the 80's and early 90'swhere other so-called Christians refused to deal with "Reagan's Rejects". Yeah, on Thanksgiving, while other self-centered narcissitic fools were thanking Jesus for thier big turkey dinner and the football games afterwards, I was one of the fools setting up hundreds of tables so the destitute could have at least SOMETHING to eat. And I did this while a Christ-Centered Nazi Republican Politician by the name of Mike Antonovich said that most of the people I helped that day were faking it, and they ought to show proof they had a low income. This is how Christians treat thousands of people thrown away in the name of Jesus and his beloved daughter, "Ayn as in Mine" Rand. Now I cannot go there, since many have the new drug resistant strain of TB.

Meanwhile those lyin pimps Helmet Head Paul and Racoon Face Jan Crouch still are on Trinity Broadcasting, fleecing millions from millions of idiots who buy into the asinine notion that Jesus will yank 'em up in the sky in a week or 2. Pat Robertson begs for funds in the name of Jesus and mines diamonds with the money he steals. Jerry Falwell no doubt gloats over his fat Swiss bank account and adulterer Charles Stanley has military officers force our troops to sign cards pledging they will pray for the illegally elected asshole in Al Gore's House. And an idiot in Los Angles named Rev. R L Hymers publically prays for the deaths of Democrats and he was so upset when Gray Davis did not die in office, of course, Hymers supports that wonderful Christ-Centered Nazi that overthrew Davis...

Karl Marx was wrong about a lot of things, but he hit the nail right on the head when he wrote that religion is the opiate of the masses.

[shrike]

37. I think the people on this thread are talking about spirituality rather

then organized religion. Although I share your pain and fury over what has been done in "God's" name.

[Must_B_Free]

27. Ask yourself this

does there have to be such a thing for you to perceive it, or would you perceive that it existed from something that resembled it?

[Nlighten1]

28. There is no "divine intervention"

only dumb luck and hard work.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

31. It feels like there is some kind of creative force like you describe --

strange little coincidences, interesting happenings, ironies, chains of events, that make you think differently about things or make you act differently than you would.

I would never have connected ancestors with it before, but in the past year I have encountered interesting little conicidences that have made me have a big change in my relationship with my parents and the coincidences have been connected with an unlikely long deceased relative that I never met. It's just strange and surprising what you find yourself thinking about and doing.

[immoderate]

33. DUH! Why do they call it coincidence?

--IMM

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

36. I'm saying there's more to coincidences

than just what they appear to be on the surface, so DUH yourself, Mr/ Ms. Smarty and Superior.

[immoderate]

39. And that something is...

what we call God. Ontological argument of St Anselm.

How does one know what is a coincidence, and what is part of the divine plan?

I'm not that smart. My pants are smart.

--IMM

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

40. I don't know if there is a God or not

and I don't care. I don't know what is coincidence or divine plan either and I don't care. What I am saying is that I have experienced, as a creative person, things that have inspired me and they have a feeling of coming from somewhere other than my own limited experience.

Call it flaky, stupid, mock it, whatever, but they have some sort of meaning. It feels like when you read a poem or look at a painting and then you have a changed way of thinking about things because that person gave you some new insight. But it's a little different from that because I'm talking about random events that give you that new way of looking at things.

[immoderate]

41. These feelings are quite common...

...and part of being human. Happens all the time. This thread is about divine intervention. These wonderful things are part of US, not the whim of a magic being. I would not sell humanity short. Let's give credit for creativity to the people who do it. And let me hasten to add: IMHO.


--IMM

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

49. If you read G,B & Cheney's whole post and not just the title

he is talking about more than a divine being. He is also talking about the possibility of a Fifth dimension and so on. I do give credit for creativity to the people who do the creating and don't know if there is a divine being or not.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I already said I don't know if there's a God or not, so I don't know why you are talking down to me about believing in the whim of a magical being.

[immoderate]

51. I think I read it...

What is meant by invisible hand, 5th dimension, etc. if not some outside intelligence with a particular purpose? I'm saying that incidents that are attributed here to, what may I call it, outside influences, are normal, contained within us, and can be accounted for by human psychology, creativity, chance, and coincidence.

If not, then what is it we are discussing here?

Once, a friend pointed to the beauty of the mountains, sky and trees, and told me that was evidence of the existence of god. To me, it was evidence that we are wired to see "beauty" in our environment. How could it be otherwise.

A for "talking down" perhaps I am just clumsy. But no pun intended, I think it is a result of our relative positions.

I come here to discuss and joust a bit. I give some, I get some. I mean no offense. This topic interests me and I weigh in. But I mean to be truthful. (Gosh, I'm glad this isn't a date because it wouldn't be going very well.)

--IMM

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

52. Well I am assuming you are a man, so I would say

if you go on a date and the woman says something, don't retort with "DUH" for a start! But it's ok, you are probably right, we may be talking past each other based on different starting points.

I just like to believe there could be unknown reasons behind events. Before my husband's grandmother died at age 96, I asked her where she thought she would go and if she thought we would see each other again ever. She was very calm about dying and said she was ready to go. She said she didn't know what happened when you die, but she felt peaceful about it and said, maybe you just stop existing or maybe there is something that happens that we don't know about until we die, like a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. So I feel the same, I don't know what happens and maybe nothing does and we cease to exist or maybe something happens that we'll find out about then. I'm cool about it either way, since it's beyond my control, but it would be fun to see some other way of being.

[immoderate]

56. OK, sorry about the DUH!

The original post talks about spirits and ancestors and the like. My world view accounts for all the phenomena here without resorting to supernatural explanations.

People here are describing things that I accept easily if preceeded by the phrase, "It's as if..." That would present no problem for me. To go past that creates problems that are conveniently ignored. Visit Mark Twain's heaven and you'll see what I mean.

Now so you'll know I'm not a complete clod, I'll just say I've been around for a long time and if I'm on a date, I don't do DUH. Even in this environment, there are those that are rougher than I am.

--IMM

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

61. I'm just teasing about the duh!

You're not a clod.

[msmcghee]

59. Calamity, you said . .

. . I just like to believe there could be unknown reasons behind events.

I think that is a fairly common human trait. Across cultures and throughout history.

Have you considered that our brains have evolved to have such a need/desire? This would make it easier for humans to be drawn to religion - and religion is an organizing force. It allows many people to come together and feel that they are part of the same thing - and cooperate to get things done - and fight enemies and even conquer people of other religions.

Better organized societies develop irrigation and clean water supplies and offer specialized occupations and are more productive. People who live in better organized societies produce more offspring that survive. Therefore, their DNA, the DNA of people who feel some need/desire to believe in a force greater than themselves, an organizing force, will gradually displace the DNA of people who don't feel that need as strongly.

So now, after millions of years of human evolution, many of us feel that things like divine intervention are real - or rather, like you said, I just like to believe there could be unknown reasons behind events.

Just another way to look at the topic of this thread.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

62. That is very interesting

Looking at it that way, it's kind of like religion has the potential to cause great creativity or great destruction.

[Philosophy]

35. It's called observational selection effect

You believe that "divine intervention" happened to save your life, because if it didn't you wouldn't be around to have that belief. It's a common logical fallacy.

It's like believing you have the "psychic" ability to turn off street lamps, because you see them go off all the time right when you get near them. In reality, all the lamps are randomly going off all the time, it's just that you can only see the ones that are close to you.

Or it's like claiming that it must have taken a divine "miracle" for you to win the lottery, because the odds were so against you. In reality, someone was going to win no matter what, so it couldn't have been a miracle for anyone who won. What would be miraculous is if no one won.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

38. I don't discuss religion or politics.

:spank:

Wait. I guess I do. In that case, I don't (believe in DI).

[babzilla]

46. karma happens

and it is "divinely" human.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. I have found throughout my life

that when I am on the right path, obstacles just fall away and remarkably beneficial coincidences pop up out of nowhere. Things better than I had hoped for.

When I am on the wrong path, brick walls spring up in front of me where they logically should not or where they never have been before.

My decision to move from Portland to Minneapolis was like this. After nine largely contented years in that city, everything, and I do mean everything, started to go sour in quick succession, although I still felt committed to sticking it out. Then I went back to Minneapolis to visit over Christmas of 2002, and I found myself unexpectedly thinking, "I could live here again." I began researching the Twin Cities on the Internet and sure enough, a move was feasible.

About a year ago this week, I came back on an exploratory trip and quickly found a neighborhood and a church that I liked. Since moving back in August, I've had one good, enriching experience after another. Meanwhile, reports from the folks back in Portland suggest that all the things that were deteriorating in 2003 are even worse now.

This doesn't mean that my life is all sunshiine and rainbows. I've found that solving one major problem tends to knock something else off kilter, so life is never perfect. It does mean, however, that even some of the worst periods of my life have somehow served as preparation for some later stage.

As many of you know, I'm a liberal Christian, but I've always realized that the universe is more complex than any human religion can comprehend or describe. Some of the cosmological stuff that's coming out now is literally incredible, and who knows what's really going on?

I'm convinced, however, that it's NOT all random. I don't think everything's predetermined, and I do believe in free will, but I also think that every once in a while, we get shot out of our comfort zone like a billiard ball and onto a new trajectory.

[Merlin]

48. Why do people insist on an intervening God? There's a better explanation.

Clearly the universe did not happen by accident. It is the creation of some profoundly intelligent higher power or Force.

The intricacies of the human body and mathematically perfect rythyms of the heavens are clear proof of an astounding creative Force.

But there is no evidence at all that this Force intervenes in events.

Instead we live among billions of independent life forms and inanimate objects, each existing in accordance with its own set of natural laws, as instituted by this creative Force.

Humans, through our rational minds, tune in to the natural laws and use them to bring about positive results. This constitutes a collective force for good in mankind.

But faith in an intervening, activist god defies all the evidence. It is, imo, the result of a desperate need by people to overcome their sense of powerlessness by believing they can influence events via prayer.

Is prayer beneficial? Of course it is, in terms of consecrating the spirit to act more in tune with the positive Forces of nature and existence. But it is fantasy to believe the God of Creation spends all of its time listening to appeals of humans and trying to satisfy them, like some great Santa Claus in the sky.

If the God of Creation chose to actually interven in human events, the results would be profound and unmistakeable.

[neebob]

50. I want to

and have always had the feeling that someone or something watches out for me, saves me from accidents and makes my shit work out in spite of the trouble I try to create for myself. But logic tells me this is not true. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm definitely an atheist; I just can't quite get comfortable with it.

[Walt Starr]

53. "Divine Intervention" is just another conspiracy theory

Only tinfoilhatters would go for that kind of consiracy gobbledegook.

[juajen]

54. I believe so

I know something or someone (God) directs my life, for good or ill. Maybe we are all making deposits in the Bank of Karma, and can only withdraw if we have ample deposits. Or, maybe we are the gigantic chess game of the gods. Let's hope the white (good) army prevails over the dark (evil) one.

[LibDemAlways]

55. If there is such a thing as divine intervention

it was at work the day my husband's flying club was delivering many tons of donated frozen turkeys to a reservation near San Diego around Thanksgiving time. This was many years ago. Anyhow, no tribal representative showed up to claim the food, and the turkeys were rapidly defrosting in the sun. Frantic phone calls to the reservation went unanswered, and it looked like my husband was going to be stuck with a ton of spoiled food. Out of nowhere a worker at the small rural airport approached and asked if the food could be donated to a homeless organization his mother volunteered at. Within an hour refrigerated trucks had arrived to cart the birds away, and my husband later received a letter indicating that over 300 homeless people, many of them Native Americans, enjoyed those Thanksgiving turkeys.

Coincidence? Quite possibly, but also a chance that something more was at work.

[immoderate]

57. If somebody asked you...

...for an example of a coincidence, what would you tell them?

If the airport worker really appeared "out of nowhere," then something more was at work. But if he really was working at the airport--coincidence.

--IMM

[Cleita]

58. I can go along with that, the spirit guide or guardian angel theory.

I don't know how divine it is, but I think there is another world out there that we are part of or dimension if you will, but we don't have the attributes to actually experience it except in an indirect way, sort of like a blind salamander who lives in a dark cave. He doesn't need eyes to see, but he knows when others are around although he can't see them.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. I do

I know it happens.

[Mike Niendorff]

63. How can I not believe in divine intervention?

It's the only possible explanation for the loooooong string of nasty bad beats I just suffered at the poker table :)


MDN

[LWolf]

64. I do.

I don't quantify it, label it, analyze it, or make rules about it. I don't depend on it. But I know it is there.