"Gore sank the Dean campaign."

[kaitykaity]

Last thing said by David Brooks on The NewsHour.
Ray Suarez let Brooks have the last word, and so
this slam went unchallenged.

I wish somebody would take David Brooks somewhere
remote and pound some sense into him. He thinks
he's so smart, but he's smug, and his smirk is almost
as bad as the Chimp's.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/jan-june04/sb_05-28.html

[bigwillq]

1. I didn't like how Gore bailed on Dean

after Iowa. Was Gore with Dean ever after that? If so, I must've missed it.

[Jackson4Gore]

3. Gore campaigned for Dean around the country

I know for a fact in Tennessee and Detriot.

[bigwillq]

8. Well that's good to know

I just didn't really see Gore with Dean after Iowa. It seemed like after Iowa we didn't hear about Gore supporting Dean but you know how the media goes.

[sangh0]

152. Maybe this is it

After Iowa, Dean didn't do much campaigning.

[WI_DEM]

158. not true

Dean campaigned hard in New Hampshire and then for caucuses in Washington and Maine plus made appearances in other primary states he wasn't really contesting: SC, Arizona, and New Mexico (I think he made a mistake by not contesting NM harder given that he did relatively well there)and then concentrated for almost two weeks of non-stop campaigning here in Wisconsin.

What he did do is stop running ads after NH to save up money to spend on a last effort in Wisconsin, but he didn't stop campaigning at all.

[sangh0]

160. That's not true

Yes, Dean campaigned hard in NH, but after that his schedule lightened considerably until he suspended his campaign.

Also, making appearances in states he wasn't really contesting is not "campaigning hard"

[madfloridian]

20. Check out the new DFA staff.

Most of them are Gore folks. I don't think Gore ever bailed on Dean.

[ScreamingMeemie]

88. Gore was all over Detroit for Dean on our caucus weekend. Attending

church in Detroit etc...He never bailed on Dean. They are cut from the same cloth.

[Jackson4Gore]

2. Wrong, Dean sank himself

Proof, this is a little while after Gore endorsed Dean. This was taken before some of Dean's off the wall comments:

http://algoresupport.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=newsalerts&action=display&num=1071526001

[madfloridian]

25. I was just appreciating your site. Dean is NOT sunk.

He did not sink himself, Gore did not sink him, neither of them are sunk.

This really makes me cross. They are both making a difference.

[jsw_81]

64. Of course Dean is sunk

He went from clear front-runner to landslide loser in a matter of days. He blew it in a spectacular fashion. Apart from giving a few speeches here and there, he is finished in politics.

[madfloridian]

67. No, not at all.

That is what you prefer to think. That is not true at all.

[ashling]

70. If he's so sunk

why is it that the Kerry campaign so sought his endorsement?

[stickdog]

72. Yes, Dean sucks. Let's steal his lines, then dance on his grave.

I love the DLC. Don't you?

[nomaco-10]

84. If Dean is "finished" in politics .....

it will be because of people like you that bought into the whoreification by the corporate whore media and the DLC that were determined to bring him down.

Howard Dean was the one true bright spot that bought some clarity and truth to the political process in the primaries this year. If he doesn't have some prominent spot in the future politics of the democratic party, we will have marginalized our party to the point of defeat for many election cycles to come.

[shance]

28. Nobody sank Nobody. Give it a REST.

Think outside of the Democratic cat-fighting box and get off of the backs of either of our best, five-star Democratic Alphas.

Dean and Gore are two of the classiest, saaviest, smartest leaders this country has.

Its our job to promote, protect and defend all leaders of this calibre, Republican or Democrat.

There is a reason why the good leaders stand out and why they stand alone.

So few people want the job and responsibility it takes to be a good leader. Most people dont have the guts to do what they are doing.

Are you willing to do their job and/or take their place?

Nobody sank anyone, that goes especially for Governor Dean.

[Brian_Expat]

42. "Off the wall comments"

. . . such as "HOW DARE THEY disgrace the name of the United States of America?!?" :eyes:

Oh, that wasn't Dean, was it?

And it turns out, as ever, that Howard Dean was. . . right! :)

[leesa]

131. You were only TOLD they were off the wall by the media and like

a good little American consumer you bought it hook, line and sinker. Just like etars can bring down a democrat if the corporate media chooses to do it.

[jpgray]

4. Brooks is an idiot--he conflated critics of neo-cons with anti-Semites

Rumsfeld's proud Jewish heritage notwithstanding, he's also wrong on his comments regarding Gore and Dean. This is just a nasty jab to rile up the supporters of each man, particularly after the powerful speech Gore gave recently. A failed candidacy can't be blamed on a single factor, and it's doubtful that one could objectively determine which factor was the most significant.

[KittyWampus]

12. Brooks-Idiot... He Really Is Not Too Bright

Mediocre talent which doesn't merit the national stage the NYTimes provides.

[AlCzervik]

5. David Brooks was off his meds big time tonight.

did you hear his BS about the handover? And did you hear Mark Shields almost say the pentagon behaved criminally? He said "The pentagon has behaved , behaved, behaved.....negilegently" He was so close to saying criminally.

[Alerter_]

6. Ha! President-Elect Al Gore has the MAJORITY on his side

Most Americans voted for Gore - even in Florida - and Gore is making more sense than most of the politicians out there right now. GO GORE! Kerry/Gore 2004!

[Octafish]

7. It's the frat-boy smirk -- the kind you see on someone who's never worked

... a day in his life. I'm glad I'm not him. Or Bush.



With apologies to B.Kliban, I'd give this the secondary title:

"Bush in Leaveanworth"

[NNadir]

11. I forgot about this cartoon

It's a classic.

Of course, that can't be Bush under the dirty fat person, since technically Bush isn't President. To be President, one must be legally elected to the office. The Presidency is vacant.

[Old and In the Way]

14. The Presidency is vacant.

Absolutely. Reflected nicely in the mind of the janitor who occupys the oval office.

[TahitiNut]

31. I'd eat 3000 calories/day and stop bathing for a chance to do that.

Yup. And I'd eat LOTS of beans, too.

[KittyWampus]

9. Gore Erred When He Implied We Should All Line Up Behind Dean

If he had straight out said "I prefer Dean for reasons x, y and z" I personally would have had no problem with his endorsement.

But unfortunately, Gore came close to saying we needed to get behind Dean BEFORE ANY VOTES WERE CAST.

Big turn off and disrespectful to other candidates and their supporters.

Gore might not be the best of politicians but he was certainly well seasoned enough to know that the WAY he made his endorsement would have an impact.

Post Script: Gore didn't sink Dean's Campaign, Dean did.

[salonghorn70]

16. Agree

Not only what you said but what ticked me off was that Gore's action came at a time that Democrats across the country were starting to have serious doubts about Dean.

[stickdog]

73. Why?

What was driving these "serious doubts"?

Because lots of Democrats have serious doubts about Kerry. Would you rather that we unify ourselves or would rather have us vote for Nader or write in Dean?

[Old and In the Way]

18. Gore's endorsement should have been "the done deal" for Dean.

The rank-and-file Democrats had other ideas, though. I thought Gore's endorsement of Dean was pre-mature. OTOH, I think Gore did recognize Dean's strong campaign that was inspirational to all Democrats a year ago. I know I appreciated Dean's strong and loud criticism of this administration last summer.

[Bryan]

113. Not only was the endorsement premature

...it was overweening. I can't speak for anybody else, but when Gore came out after two-and-a-half years of (except for the odd fireball speech) hanging out a Gone Fishin' sign while the nation was going ass over teakettle, and after his embarrassing promenade around various media outlets before deciding that he wouldn't run, suggesting that "all of us need to get behind the strongest candidate" before any primary votes had been cast caused me to hit the ceiling. It was like he thought there was a vast Gore Nation awaiting his instructions. I felt so bad for Dean.

[madfloridian]

114. Well, you don't need to be embarrassed for either.

Things are moving along for both. Gore is in demand as a speaker, many of his previous WH advisors and campaign personnel are with DFA as staff....Dean's group. Gore works on financing for the media deals coming up with NWI and other progressive media. He is fine.

Dean is doing very well. You do not need to worry about him. His column starts this week in almost 700 newspapers, and the talk show will be on perhaps after Kerry is elected in November.

Please don't waste your pity on them.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. not that old whine again

You would have been thrilled if Gore had endorsed your candidate. In actuality the backstabbing party elite and the media which takes orders from bush inc...which did not want to run against Dean sank Dean's campaign.

[babzilla]

121. Gore did straight out say I prefer Dean for reasons x, y and z

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/09/elec04.prez.gore.dean/

Gore said part of the reason he chose to endorse Dean was his ability to appeal to the nation's "grassroots" elements, a reference to Dean's success in organizing and raising funds on the Internet and in small voter gatherings.

Gore also praised Dean's opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq. The former vice president called the Iraq war a "catastrophic mistake" by the Bush administration, a move that leaves the United States less effective in the nation's battle against terrorism. He said the United States is now in a "quagmire" in Iraq.

"He was the only major candidate who made the correct judgment about the Iraq war," Gore said. "And he had the insight and the courage to say and do the right thing. And that's important because those judgments -- that basic common sense -- is what you want in a president."

"Whether it is inspiring enthusiasm at the grassroots, and promising to remake the Democratic Party as a force for justice and progress and good in America, whether it is a domestic agenda that gets our nation back on track, or whether it is protecting us against terrorists and strengthening our nation in the world, I have come to the conclusion that one candidate clearly now stands out," Gore said.


So your problem with the endorsement was what you perceived as an implication that you should line up behind Dean. In reality Gore was giving his personal endorsement because he personally believed that Dean was the candidate that clearly stood up for the issues that Gore thought most important.

[Paragon]

10. The media sank it.

Gee, no one's ever got fired up at a campaign event before.

Playing "the scream" over & over again and out of context did the job.

[KittyWampus]

15. Dean's Outlandish Concession Speech Was INAPPROPRIATE

and it is disgusting to still see people making excuses for Dean's unacceptable behavior.

The speech was out side the norm of any sort of concession speech.

Like a Wedding Toast or Funeral Eulogy... there is an accepted form of Concession Speech which Dean COMPLETELY BLEW OFF.

He wasn't running for town board he was running for PRESIDENT OF THE USA. If he wasn't savvy enough to pull himself together and present himself as a statesman... he had NO BUSINESS RUNNING.

Please note, my post doesn't even MENTION the fucking scream... that was just the final twist of the knife.

[Paragon]

17. His CONCESSION speech?

:7

Yes, his concession speech really sent his campaign into a tailspin. :eyes:

[sangh0]

153. Yes, a concession speech

and if anyone was foolish for bringing it up, it was the fool who argued that Dean lost because the media replayed his concession speech. I believe that fool is you.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. bullshit

get over it. There was no need for a concession speech. There certainly are no rules concerning what you say after A STATE PRIMARY. That's just ridiculous.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

45. But...but...but... it was OUTLANDISH!

OUTLANDISH, I tell you!

Judge: Count One: Being peppy at a pep rally. Count Two: Being outlandish. How plead you?

Lawyer: Objection your honor! Aaaaarrgghhhhh-umentative!

[madfloridian]

23. Remarks like that are getting very tiring.

They are really silly, and they play right into the hands of the RNC, GOP, and yes, the DLC.

[jsw_81]

65. Telling the truth is tiring?

That really says a lot. Face it: Dean blew it. It's over. HE LOST. Now get over it already, kay?

[madfloridian]

69. I never saw anything like the way this is happening here.

You talk to me as if I am a child. You have done it for a long time now. We at this forum are tearing each other apart with petty attacks on each others' candidates or former candidates. If you read anything I wrote, you would see that I am totally aware of what is going on.

This really bodes well for the future.

[stickdog]

76. Get over it?

My God.

I guess we wouldn't want to be Sore Losermans about this, right?

[AntiCoup2K4]

89. Remember those words....

....because if Kerry continues down the DLC path to destruction, with some neocon shitbag as his running mate, they're gonna come back to haunt you, when Junior actually wins an election.

[Jim Sagle]

139. More chickenshit bullshit.

[seaglass]

43. Dean supporters will never see what most of the rest of us saw

although there was one on DU who did that night.

I think that it's because they look at him through Deaniac eyes and can't see that the rest of us - the majority - saw a man that had just suffered a big loss react in a forced way, pretending what happened had not just happened.

You're right, the scream was just an exclamation point on a really transparent acting job.

To me it's just like if Pedro Martinez, after losing to the Yankees last fall, in a post-game interview had acted all enthusiastic and exclaimed that we'd win the World Series next year. No one would have believed that was either his true feelings or that it was an appropriate reaction.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. You're right of course.

No politician has ever tried to put a positive spin on disappointing results before. He should have cried.

:eyes:Deaniac Eyes!:eyes:

[babzilla]

124. there's no crying allowed in politics

did you learn nothing from Pat Schroeder?

[Forkboy]

47. I think that's shit

and I'm not a Dean supporter.

[stickdog]

75. And? So Dean showed a little false enthusiam to buck up his fiercest

supporters.

So what?

[sangh0]

154. Just a little?

And "false" enthsusiasm? From the "Straight" Talker?

[dorktv]

99. I saw that speech and *I* was pumped. He was very cool and did what

anyone should have done when they get a disappointing result and have a huge number of people to buck up.

[Jim Sagle]

140. Still more chickenshit bullshit.

[stickdog]

74. Yes. And Wellstone's Memorial was an abomination!

How dare people choose their own way of grieving!

Right?

[KittyWampus]

78. When You're Running For PRESIDENT You Grieve LATER

Dean needed to get out in front of the mike since he was on a national/international stage and talk to the AMERICAN PEOPLE... not the fucking supporters who are already behind him.

He needed to appear like a statesman... poised and confident and ready to fight the next battle.

He did NOT need to appear like a somewhat crazed or overly enthusiastic freaking cheerleader.

[madfloridian]

80. Did you call us his "f****"supporters? Did you really?

Is that what you really think of us? Wow!

Frankly, he attracted many supporters in our area, and he had the respect of many more.

I am alarmed at the level of hatred here toward him and toward us. I have said many times we would vote for Kerry and we have donated to him.

[stickdog]

81. Well, duh. What he did was too hot for a national television audience.

Especially when you cropped the picture and boosted the hot mike.

I think we all agree that Dean made a minor campaigning mistake. So what?

[AntiCoup2K4]

94. Why do Kerrybots and the DLC have such a problem with enthusiasm??

Is it because their boy doesn't seem to have any?

Is it because Dean & Gore out there kicking ass makes Kerry look weak - because he refuses to call these CRIMINALS in the White House what they truly are?

Boredom doesn't inspire votes. Gore could tell you about that one, though the media whores exaggerated it in his case.

[Jim Sagle]

141. The chickenshit bullshit flows like wine.

[Jim Sagle]

138. Chickenshit bullshit.

[depakid]

13. Brooks is another phoney- just like George Will

the man will say anything and spin any direction to prop up the right. People seem to think he's a bright guy, but he really isn't- his observations are rarely astute and his analysis is usually shallow.

All in all, he's an intellectual lightweight who couldn't shine a candle to Al Gore... or a good many of us here on DU or over at the Smirking Chimp, either.

[madfloridian]

30. Here is a link to the Weekly Standard from whence Brooks came.

A really lovely right wing paper. Typical NewsMax, or worse.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/

[AntiCoup2K4]

49. Weakly Standard: Official PNAC propaganda source

Bill "Goebbels" Kristol, chairman-puppet of PNAC runs the rag, for fucks sake.

[SoDesuKa]

63. Nobody's as Phony as George Will

George Will reads Pliny the Elder so he can sound scholarly. What a pompous ass.

[madfloridian]

22. David Brooks came from the Weekly Standard. The Noise Machine.

He is not exactly a moderate. The talking points right now are to attack both Gore and Dean in this way. Gore...speech. Dean....new column coming out next week......GOP...discredit both.

[babzilla]

46. the awesome power of the mighty wurlitzer strikes again

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

126. Once again I have to ask...

I wonder what Devericks point is?

You so crazy! -Martin Lawrence

[madfloridian]

24. Yes, the Dems appear to let the GOP have the last word on Gore and Dean.

You are right on that.

[John_H]

26. Dean sunk Dean. Gore went down with the ship.

Gore threw the dice. He was betting that Dean would steamroll his way to the nomination and that his early support would sling him ahead of Clinton as the party's major non-candidate player.

But as it turned out rank and file Dems thought Kerry would have a better chance against Chimp and Gore opened himself up, fair or not, to the question asked by the OP.

[madfloridian]

27. Define sunk.

Are you saying that neither are important or making contributions or making a difference?

The two of them speak a lot of truth.

[Selwynn]

48. Here's how it is defined you crazy rationalizing apologists :)

HE WAS THE FRONTRUNNER, NOW HE IS NOT THE NOMINEE

It's not too complicated to define that as "sunk."

[madfloridian]

55. "Sunk" implies he is no longer relevant. He is.

It amazes me how people think Kerry is the only winner. No one is jealous of Kerry, and Dean is working hard for him.

I hate to see Democrats using terms like Gore sunk Dean, Dean sunk Dean, etc. They are two men who deserve respect, not to made fun of by their own party.

Read The Republican Noise Machine. This is exactly, exactly what Brock is talking about.

We put down our own leaders by listening to a reporter whose roots were with the Weekly Standard. I believe Murdoch once owned it, didn't he?

[Selwynn]

56. Sunk implies the person who was thought to win the nomination didn't

His campaign was not to be relevant. His campaign was to be president in 2004. And his campaign sunk.

It has nothing to do with his continued relevance.

[madfloridian]

59. See what the RW machine has us doing?

Playing word games. That makes them the winner of the discourse.

[Selwynn]

66. LOL, I think decades of election history pretty much agrees about ...

...what saying someones campaign "sunk" means. It has nothing to do with whether Dr. Dean is a good guy or a asset to the party. It's just a fact. He was way out front, and then he lost -- what word would you prefer we use to describe that?

It sunk. It might not be his fault, he might still be amazingly valuable and a real contributor, etc etc. But I think Dr. Dean himself would talk about the sinking of his campaign, because its just a fact. Has nothing to do with RW, LW or any other wing. It just happened.

[madfloridian]

68. Let's face it. Here it is used as an insulting term to hurt Gore and Dean

It is being used to tarnish them, and to keep them from being important. Democrats have got to stop that kind of stuff....they really do.

People at DU who should appreciate how Dean is working so hard to keep a lot of his supporters in play for the election....are simply having a lot of fun making fun of him and of us those of us who are now DFA members.

It is just plain stupid. I think you know what I mean. The word "sunk" infers failure. That is exactly what is being implied here. Gore is no failure, Dean is no failure. If Dean can not keep the many Greens and Republicans who supported him voting Democrat we are all in big trouble.

I am tired of the bashing of all of our candidates by other Democrats. We are tearing each other apart.

[Pastiche423]

77. "...to keep them from being important"

That is exactly what is happening.

Why do some want to keep them from being important?

IMHO, it is because both Dean and Gore can and are speaking to We, the People in ways we understand and on topics THAT NEED TO BE DISCUSSED. But, I believe, most importantly, they speak of solutions to our country's many problems.

Or, IOW, they are not status quo. They will not be mum. Going along to get along will solve nothing. If we are to change the dangerous path our country is on, SOMETHING must be done.

Waffling, fence sitting, nuancing and doing nothing while allowing an opponent to self destruct, is not doing SOMETHING.

The above is what makes me so angry and disappointed that Kerry was appointed by the DLC and the media to be our presumed candidate. He gives me no reason to believe in him, no reason to have faith that he might actually help We. the People and our country.

So, if some of us point out the really good things people like Dean are doing FOR US, we must be muzzled, because those two men are doing what Kerry can't or won't do. Their hard work and their speaking truth to power makes Kerry look like the.... well, person he is.

[Selwynn]

116. I apprecaite all Democrats working hard for the party and the election.

No more so or no less so in the case of Dr. Dean. I'm very glad he is working hard, but I don't think he is the messiah. He's just a guy, who didn't get the nomination, like all the other guys who didn't get it. And I'm glad he's campaigning for the party, rather than sulking, but that's what a good democratic candidate who didn't get the nomination ought to be doing.

[madfloridian]

117. Then pat him on the head, like he is a good little boy.

:7 :7

What you do not see and probably never will see is that he brought new people into politics, and keeping them in is not easy. Putting people down and making remarks like that tend to drive a lot away....and it has already to a great degree.

You tend to show the attitude of the party in general to the people with enthusiasm. You know...the be quiet or go away philosophy.

No one ever thought Dean was a messiah. That is meant as an insult to him and to his supporters and DFA members. Again, I question motive in constantly saying things like that about someone who is no longer running. Makes me wonder.

[Selwynn]

132. Heh... you "tend" to know nothing about me.

"You tend to show the attitude of the party in general to the people with enthusiasm. You know...the be quiet or go away philosophy."

Give me one example of where anything I have ever wrote could accurately be described as "be quiet or go away" philosophy. You tend to have no idea what you are talking about - you are lumping me in with a generalization because I just happened to comment on the fact that trying to rationalized away the fact that dean's campaign failed is ridiculous, and saying so is not the same thing as saying Dean himself is a failure.

You are lumping me into a category where I don't fit. I was not part of the intense and inflammatory bickering over democratic nominees that went on here for the most part. The reason I posted here is because you sound a lot like the Black Knight from Monty Python when you try to deny the implosion and "sinking" - or WHATEVER WORD YOU WOULD PREFER - of Dean's campaign. It's like denying your arm's off can calling it just a flesh wound.

Dean's campaign spectacularly imploded in cataclysmic style. That is not bad mouthing Dean, that is just telling the truth. Maybe there was a grand conspiracy against him. Maybe he was a victim and that's why his campaign bombed, or sunk, or went from a blazing lead to not in contention for the nomination with spectacular speed. I didn't say anything about Dr. Dean not continuing to work hard for the party or do great things. I didn't say, like others here have said, that he is finished in politics. I just said that trying to rationalized away and deny the fact that his campaign sunk and sunk hard is pretty impossible unless you are a fanatic.

No one ever thought Dean was a messiah, huh. Well, despite your inability to speak for "everyone" that just isn't the case. There is not way you can spin that into an insult against him. Saying that some people acted like Dean was the messiah is a comment against "some people" and has nothing to do with Dr. Dean, and in fact makes not statement - positive or negative - about him. It is however meant as a critical comment against some of the fanaticism that seemed to follow that Dean campaign more than any other candidate.

You can call it insulting all you want, but the fact of the matter is, that there was an almost cult like following as well as more respectable and "balanced" individuals who also supported Dean. I am not saying all Dean supporters were crazy. But more than in any other election year I've seen and more than any other candidate I've seen in a long time, Dean had a large number of supporters that were exceptionally fanatical. Loving your candidate is one thing. Devoting a fetish about it, becoming cultish about it, establishing a fanatical and polarizing attitude about it is another thing.

Now, that is my criticism of some of the Dean following I interacted with. That is not a statement against ALL dean supporters nor a statement against Dean himself. But it was one thing I experienced that I didn't experience nearly as much from other camps, with the possible exception of Clark's - in the case I argue that at least hear, many Clark supporters were driven to a more polarizing extreme by the extremism of some Dean supporters here.

As far as questioning the motive in "constantly" saying things like that about someone no longer running - I've never said one word about any of it outside of this thread. You keep trying to put me into this box as though you can establish some long history about me and my posts when you're totally full of shit on this one. I don't have a long post history of posting about the election primaries at all, nor a long history of either supporting or attacking Dean. And when I do write, whether it is good or bad, right or wrong, the LAST thing any person who actually knows anything about it could call it would be about dispassion or advocating the maintaining of the status quo.

And finally, where you and I OUGHT to be able to have a respectful disagreement is here: I agree with you that Dean's campaign may have brought new people into politics, as you said. But I believe he also alienated as many people as he brought in. It is my opinion that Dean in 2004 was a very polarizing figure - inspiring intense love and loyal among core followers and inspiring intense dislike in others.

And we may disagree on that, and that's find. But your constantly posting back to me and making it as though anyone who has a critical word to say about Dean's campaign (notice I have not said a single critical word about Dean personally) is somehow unfair or has bad motives is ridiculous. Acting as though we should never discuss how we feel about the candidates because it "drives people away" is also ridiculous. I will agree with you that the tone of some of the debates around here is divisive. But I really feel like you would be awfully hard pressed to pin that label on me or anything I've said here.

The bottom line friend, is that you ASSUMED I was a dean-hater/attacker because I came in an challenged your rationalization about the word "sunk" to define Dean's campaign. And you assumed wrong. I believe that EVEN DR. DEAN would call his campaign "sunk" and admitting that is part of the beginning of Dean 2008/12 - you can bet your butt that Dean will be examining the "sunk" campaign of 2004 and strategizing - learning from any mistakes that Dean himself might feel he made, learning how to combat a hostile media how to eat people like him for breakfast, learning how to win the White house in 2008/12.

Now, I've taken this ridiculous amount of time to write this, in the hope that you will stop trying to peg me into a place I don't fit. I don't have a personal problem with Dr. Dean. I am glad that he continues to work hard for the party, though I wouldn't expect anything less from him or any other democratic nominee. I am not making the statements some are that Dean is "finished" in politics. And I am not gloating or bragging over his fall from front runner to non-contender for nomination this election. I do have some critical thoughts about some of the dean following - some, not all. But I feel like I have been MORE THAN FAIR in my comments and feel a little entitled to some honest critical comments because of that - they are after all, opinion only.

So... can we leave it alone now? I'm happy to move on, but I won't if you continue coming back trying to speak as if you know something about me and say things like I "tend" to do this or that.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sugarcookie]

127. KICK

n/m

[stickdog]

79. He was never the front runner as long as the DLC had spare kamikaze

candidates to attack him with. More than any other single act, assuming the false mantle of frontrunner is what sunk Dean.

Dean's brilliant insurgent campaign lost its romance, mystique and funding advantage when it attempted to play frontrunner and old fashioned GOTV, endorsement politics. (Plus, corporate media didn't write or broadcast a single umambiguously positive word about him after Christmas, 2003 and Dean's TV commericials were not as good as Kery's or Edwards'.)

Kerry was always the chosen one. From November 2000 until this day.

[madfloridian]

29. Amazing how many here agree with Brooks.

He is considered one of the originals in the Noise Machine.

I find it outrageous that Gore and Dean are still being marginalized and demeaned at Democratic sites. And that someone like Brooks is given such credibility in Democratic circles.

[kaitykaity]

32. Hey, not by me!!!

I was a Dean supporter, and I think Kerry beat him
fair and square. (I had my qualms about Kerry, but
at the same time he's growing on me.)

[madfloridian]

34. Ha. I could tell you did not like him by your description.

:hi:

[kaitykaity]

35. lol.

I loved Gore back when, but was glad he decided not
to run this time. I was thrilled when Gore endorsed
Dean, because Dean was my guy. He still has my heart,
politically speaking.

It just made me :mad: that that dweeb Brooks took five
words to minimize Gore by implying he was the kiss of
death to Dean's campaign, and so to Kerry's as well.
I wish I had had one of those conservative voodoo dolls
Randi talked about to throw at the TV.

Thank god for DU, you know?

[Guaranteed]

104. Someone makes fun of what Al Gore is saying, and they have no right

to call themselves a Democrat.

[Pastiche423]

33. How amusing!

Neither Dean, nor Gore are running, but so many people here MUST shoot them down. Again and again and again.

YET! They want eveyone to be excited, supportive and vote for the boring, nuanced, war-drooling, bush-lite ballerina.

Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!

[kiahzero]

36. "nuanced"?

Any particular reason that word is bold?

I just love the attacks on "nuance." God forbid one hold an accurate few of the world. Instead, one must adopt the view that is takes the least thought to comprehend. Since when did catering to the intellectual laziness of others become the primary objective of the left?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiahzero]

38. "Liberal elitist," eh?

I so love getting right-wing talking points here at DU. It feels so deliciously dirty.

What's next? Attacking intellectualism in general?

Here's a fact: we're seeing the result of attacking nuance - it's in the White House right now. A lot of Bush's problems result from his inability to grasp nuance.

[Pastiche423]

39. That's the ticket!

Can't deny the fact, so you pull out the old right-wing accusation.

So lame. :eyes:

That fact is wing-less.

[kaitykaity]

40. Not to butt in or anything, but

the truth hurts, doesn't it? You ARE making a
right-wing argument against Kerry. "He's a
flip-flopper" is code for nuance.

My turn: GET OVER IT. Get in line and help the
man win. Quit :cry:ing that he isn't up to your
particular standards of candidate perfection.

Or if you're going to criticize, be constructive
about it. Calling Kerry names isn't exactly productive.

:eyes:

[stickdog]

86. Yes, GET OVER IT ALREADY!

Don't be a Sore Loserman!

[mitchum]

143. Didn't you LEAVE the party a few weeks ago?

Or was that just MORE hysterical empty rhetoric?

nothing "wing"-ed about my curiosity

[Pastiche423]

148. My, what a good memory!

If, by Party, you mean the Democratic Party, then yes I did!

Does your question have anything to do w/the topic of this thread, or were you just doing a follow up?

[mitchum]

151. Well, why should WE Democrats listen to "constructive criticism"...

from a freaking outsider? We can go to Free Republic or Zell Miller for that.
It was VERY easy to remember a proclamation delivered in such a drama queen-like fashion.

[Pastiche423]

155. From June 1972 until May 2004

I was a registered Democrat. How does being an Independent for less than a month make me an "outsider"? lol

IMHO, the Democratic Party has drifted way too far right for me, a liberal leftie. And as such, I will not support their nuanced bush candidate.

Your post is utterly ridiculous!

[madfloridian]

159. I am an outsider from my party now, but I have been a lifetime member.

So, does that make me a "freaking" outsider? I am outsider because the party wants people like me to hush and not speak out except in muted voices.

As Gore said of the DLC, which he helped form......they left him.

I believe that people have the right to speak out passionately. This issue of the Kerry advisors condemning the Gore speech may not be true. The problem is that my husband and my neighbor THINK it is true.....and someone better address it.

[mitchum]

164. Have you left the party?

God, so now the party has left Gore, Zell Miller, you...

Maybe you should contact the Kerry Campaign about your burning question. Perhaps it will set the minds of your wife and neighbor at ease. Or maybe not.


Look, I would have supported the Vermont centrist if he were the nominee (there's a great deal of difference between his rhetoric and record) ABB

[madfloridian]

165. It was my husband, not my "wife". I posted to the Kerry blog.

A few times. I did it very nicely. I was told by the others that I did not belong there. I emailed someone there about the fact that they are letting the right wing either spin about the Gore speech....or even worse they might be telling the truth and they do disapprove. I have not heard back.

I can not help how my husband reacted to that column of Dowd's. I can not help how my neighbor reacted. I tried to tell them it was probably spin......however, they said the Kerry campaign should put a stop to the spin if it is wrong.

There comes a time one must speak out.

[ima_sinnic]

41. "nuanced" is a sarcastic way of saying

it takes him a long time (if ever) to come to a point.
it says he rambles a lot until people get confused and lose interest. it says he appears unsure what stand to take on some issues.
"intellectual laziness"? thanks for playing, but I don't think so.

[Gin]

50. Dean...did not really want to be president......none of his materials say

Dean for President...they say "Dean for America"! He fulfilled that promise ten times over, IMHO. I supported him and still do.

Nobody hurt his campaign...he was a tremendous success. He spoke for many who opposed the war...and transplanted a backbone into the Democratic party.

He is too vocal and blunt to be president...I want him speaking his mind as a citizen and using the media to speak for a lot of us.

[StayOutTheBushes]

162. He wanted to be a country?

[blm]

52. Yes. It's only YOU who should be allowed to dump on OUR favorite candidate

just as you always do. You want everyone to be excited and supportive of the centrist who lost in the primary.

Try a mirror.

[Guaranteed]

105. WE have legitimate concerns. YOU do not. nt

[blm]

119. Playing games works for you, eh?

Concerns are what the primaries are for.

Spinning ginned up concerns into big lies against the nominee is Bush-enabling HORSESHIT.

[molly]

57. You aren't voting to remove * from office?

face it - Dean lost by a landslide - most of us are not stupid.

[Bandit]

51. Well both Gore and Dean are gunna sink the Bush* campaign "Big Time"

They are scared to death and think by criticizing both Gore and Dean in one fell swoop will make some points. I got news. Both Gore and Dean are getting into position to really start some ruckus among the fascists. Gore just bought a TV Network and will have it on line shortly and Dean is becoming a syndicated columnist which will get his thoughts out into the arena very shortly. These guys are trembling at the thought of the onslaught that is imminent.

[quaker bill]

53. Fear of Bush* sank the Dean campaign

Democrats were apparently not prepared to take any risk so they picked the least potentially offensive candidate they could find.

Now we have a choice between just how we are going to "stay the course" in Iraq. Kerry will try to get the French and Germans involved, Bush is pretty much stuck with doing on his own.

Personally, I rather liked offending the right wing. I think "staying the course" is a bad plan regardless of the details. Oh well.

Gore's speech was stunning, not so much in the revelations, but in the fact that he was able to make such statements and still be considered credible. Few Presidents have been so incompetent that anyone short of a complete lunatic could get away with saying that kind of stuff about them.

[madfloridian]

54. The RW slams Gore and Dean. We defend both, we get slammed.

Good going. The person who posted this was upset at Brooks for connecting Gore and Dean to marginalize and discredit Gore's speech and Dean's attacks on Bush.

Instead of picking up on that, those of us who defend both of them are marginalized. I find that appalling.

Those of us who stand up for them are not *jealous* that Kerry is the nominee. We feel that Gore and Dean are speaking out because someone has to do it.

I was so proud of Al Gore's speech. I was so ashamed to come to a Democratic forum and see him attacked using the GOP tactic of Deaning him.

Howard Dean and Al Gore opened the dialogue in this country that made it possible to criticize Bush. They should get credit for that. Instead those of us who point it out are criticized and made fun of.

[ibegurpard]

58. Correct MF

It's really too bad that some people whose candidate WON are still so childish as to continue this when the WHOLE POINT of the article was to try to discredit GORE'S SPEECH!!!!

[kaitykaity]

61. Exactly!!!

Although I probably should have been more clear. Also,
I was :mad: that the moderator at The NewsHour allowed that
cheap shot to be the last word, without a rejoinder from
Shields to the effect that Dean gave the Democratic
Party a spine transplant, and for that he will always
be a shining star, even if he isn't the nominee.

[neuvocat]

60. Gore lost the election

Gore invented the internet.

Gore is wooden and boring.

Now Gore is angry.

How many damn lies are they going to make up about this guy?

[mbee]

62. They hate the real President for his freedom

of speech! Maybe P. Boone or another rightwinger can shut him up and make him more patriotic!

[madfloridian]

71. Gore and Dean should not be attacked at a Democratic forum.

Kerry should not be attacked here either. To say something that is constructive is one thing, but this is totally out of control. I do not attack Kerry, but I will reserve the right to say I don't agree with him..

I have seen people taking up the RW spin and bringing it here....that Gore was finished because he supported Dean...Dean is stupid, done, over, and much more.

That is not helping Kerry at all. We should all be ashamed of ourselves. I am so sick of being treated like a stupid kid because I think Gore and Dean are fine people deserving of respect. Hell, I have grandchildren....I am no kid. I probably have as much or more education than a lot of folks here.

I have been told get a life, get over it, and much much more. Why? Because I continue to support the new group Dean has formed. Many of us do. It is growing much more than anyone expected. It is NO threat to Kerry, none at all. It is helping to elect local candidates and up, and anything else it does will come after November. Gore and Dean are NO threat to Kerry.

The hatred toward those of us who take up for them is not good. We are self-destructing.

[cidliz2004]

102. Appreciation for Gore and Dean

We should appreciate both of these fine men! Each has brought something wonderfully POSITIVE to the Democrats.

Gore brought honor to the office of Vice President, and for his voice speaking out against this corrupt and dangerous administration and for being a hero and surrendering the office of President when he could have dragged it out and dragged this country through a trauma that it may not have survived. This is all what a true patriot hero would do for this country.

Dean brought a SPINE back to the Democrats (although it has been slow in growth) and focused attention on the Iraq War as well as starting a new way of campaigning and growing thru the internet.

Both of these men are to be honored PERIOD !

The DNC and the media have both hurt these men. That is where our anger as well as plotting should be! We need to do something about the media and it's unfairness to the "news" in general.

The DNC predestined who was going down and was to be exhaulted. They controlled the Primaries way too much. The DNC took the choice of candidates pretty much away from us. That is who I am really PISSED at! They should have let the system of the Primaries decide on the candidate, they didn't. They set up the Primaries in an assinine schedule and they rushed then end of the Primaries to. Candidates were "squeezed" out of competition - not for any other reason other than Washington Insider bullshit agendas.

Dean and Gore are great Democrats - we need to make - or keep the organization (DNC) befitting of THEM.

[madfloridian]

103. Nice post. Yes, both of them should be honored for what they have done.

:hi:

[saracat]

150. Gore was a coward

and If Dean was so marvelous why didn't anyone vote for him? I will never forgive Gore for not fighting for the election in 2000. He supported the"rule of law" !Bullshit .He just caved.And he never even demanded a staewide recount. He insulted all the people who elected him. He may be saying great things now but its too late.He wasn't there when we needed him.I am sick of both these guys. We need to MOVE ON. They are like Gephardt" yesterdays news. I'm glad that they both are supporting the Party, but enough already.Neither guy is relevent or going to win an election.Thanks for the help.But we need to focus on the future.

[madfloridian]

161. Study up on the Florida recount. Please do. Never say Move On to us.

You can not fight the GOP steam roller if your party leaves you hanging along with the chads. It takes money and it takes fighting. The Florida Democrats let him down, as did the national party.

Frankly only one state had the chance to vote for Dean before they played the speech to death. Iowa chose the nominee.

I am so tired of being insulted. I am so tired of Dean and Gore being insulted. Remember Maureen Dowd's comment about them being the "wackadoo" wing of the party.....notice how no Democrat has spoken up for them? I did.

[saracat]

168. Baloney!

Both Dean and Gore have to accept the responsibility for their losses.They can't transfer the blame elsewhere. Dean lost Iowa before the scream and I am familiar with the recount .Florida did not let Gore down.Gore led Florida down by not defending the vote.

[nomaco-10]

82. Howard Dean has been on my mind......

alot lately. I can think of no other man in my lifetime that I was more sure should be taking the reigns of this country and leading us back to some kind of sanity.

Some will say that the times were not ready for him, but I vehemently disagree. He was made to order for these troubled times with his no nonsense approach to politics and his honest and intelligent views on the timely issues that are facing this country today.

[Gingergal]

83. Brooks was just pissed that Gore gave little george

a thrashing in his speech in New York. So Brooks wants to discredit him. Bad Brooks!!

[nomaco-10]

85. If Gore sank the Dean campaign then.....

Ted Kennedy could be accused of sinking the Kerry campaign. Think about it, do you not see the sick thinking that is sinking the party as a whole, and no it's not the repukes. You need not look further than threads like this to figure out who's sinking who. I've seen the "Kerry should cut Kennedy loose" threads that have run rampant here. Get a grip people and quit marginalizing the true democrats of our party. Howard Dean deserves your gratitude not your consternation.

[kaitykaity]

87. I didn't do it.

I was taking Brooks to the woodshed, don't blame
me if the Dean/Kerry people want to use the thread
to have another fight.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

91. We should all take Brooks to the woodshed and quit dividing ourselves.

I am totally unable to believe the hatred toward two good men. Brooks is very dangerous to Democracy. He is part of a well-oiled machine, and that machine is using this board to divide Democrats.

[ScreamingMeemie]

92. Bingo! Agreed agreed!

Time to take over our own party again, instead of being told what to think and when it's okay to think it. :hi:

[madfloridian]

93. Yep! You are right.

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

90. David Brooks is an ass...and deserves no air time in my opinion.

Does he even keep up with national events. :eyes:

Hi kaity kaity, nice to see you! :hug:

[Gingergal]

97. Brooks thinks he is a bigger expert on Dean than Joe Trippi.

Trippi said in an interview that the Gore endorsement of Dean scared some in the Democratic establishment/DLC side and the corporate media because it meant that Dean was then considered a very serious contender. Therefore, the word went out that Dean must be destroyed.

[ScreamingMeemie]

98. And that is what happened. Mix that with Dean's comments on

the media deregulation, and the need to take him down became imperative for these people. I am still glad and thankful for Gore's endorsement of Dean. It showed that some were still willing to stand up for the true principles of the party.

[kaitykaity]

100. You too.

:pals:

Sometimes the lines of who is replying to what
confuse me.

:hi:

[johncoby2]

95. Dean sank the Dean campaign

Move on.

.org

[madfloridian]

96. That has been said already. At least be creative.

Move On? Get over it? This is so ridiculous.

[johncoby2]

106. Geez guys! Lets get over this. Really.

And move on to beat bush.

Sometimes the Dean folks are just too sensitive about everything that is said. Hell, we need all the help we can get, but na-na-ing it just doesnt help anyone.

[madfloridian]

107. "get over it" "move on" "losers" these are insulting words.

Insulting us is ridiculous. Dean is out of the race. He is no threat to Kerry. What I am thinking here is that people consider him a threat or something, that they must attack so. He is not a threat. He is building the organization, but it will be used to support Kerry, not hurt him. Shame on you for using GOP talking points of "get over it" "move on".

Those are hurtful, and they are painful, because we heard them in 2000.

No, we are not sensitive. People who insult us can be unthinking, nearly rude. We are "over it."

Gore is making a difference, Dean is making a difference. Party does not want them to make a difference...bottom line. Gore helped found the DLC, and he has now distanced himself from it. Dean was DLC when he was governor, and he has distanced himself from it. This does not make them popular with TPTB.

[johncoby2]

109. All good points but....

Enough already. What do you guys want us to do to? Jump around like cheerleaders or something?

Move on is not an insult, it is a SUGGESTION! Move on. Lets beat bush in 2004 and quit getting your underwear in a knot.

It is a shame that someone has to tell you that.

[madfloridian]

110. It is a shame you make no effort to understand. It hurts all of us.

"Move On" when used the way you mean it IS an insult. It implies stupidity and worship on our part. I resent that very much, no matter who does it.

You surely know that we realize our candidate is no longer running. But you also surely realize that he is very much in demand, and so is Gore. Dean's schedule is almost as full as when he was a candidate. Gore speaks throughout the country and gets huge crowds.

You can keep doing this move on get over it stuff, and you will hurt the fact that we are trying to work together.

[Jim Sagle]

144. "Move on" IS an insult. Suggesting otherwise is chickenshit bullshit.

And the insults will be parried. Every. Single. Time.

[kaitykaity]

145. You need a new phrase.

Chickenshit bullshit isn't very creative. Please sober
up and stop polluting my thread with your Chickenshit
Bullshit.

[Jim Sagle]

146. I'm NOT the one polluting the thread. The folks parroting RNC agitslop by

chanting "move on" or "Dean flopped" or "Gore sucks" are.

So I'll stop when they stop and not before.

[kaitykaity]

147. "Parroting RNC agitprop" is much more

quote-unquote productive than repetition ad nauseum.
In case you don't remember, repeating something over
and over again does in fact happen to be an RNC
agitprop technique.

[Jim Sagle]

149. But I'm using it to enforce Democatic unity.

O8) :kick: O8)

[sangh0]

157. "enforce"???

You have a very un-democratic sense of the term "unity", IMO.

[Jim Sagle]

167. The mods can over-rule me. They've done it before.

;)

[johncoby2]

128. How is this for being creative?

You know, a lot of folks that I know really really respect Howard Dean and his movement, but really really really can't stand the supporters.

They have become political know it alls and some are irritating.

Dean has and is still doing some great things and I look forward to him continuing in the process.

[madfloridian]

129. You can not stand the supporters of Dean?

Well, at least you are honest.

[ScreamingMeemie]

101. Dean was shot down by those in his party who velt threatened by him.

Dean was a true Democrat, and many were too blind to see that. Just as many were too blind to see the media tear down. ...and now, they laud him when it fits.

[madfloridian]

108. How right you are.

Tonight in Hawaii he was praising Kerry as usual, bashing Bush as no one else can...except perhaps Gore. I get so tired of the smears toward us and toward him and toward Gore.

[unkachuck]

111. Agreed....let's be clear...

Dean (Gore) represented a grass-roots, people-funded enrun attempt around the corporate-owned Democratic party 'elders'.....it was a dangerous precedent that had to be stopped by any means....

And as a former Dean supporter, that still leaves a bad taste in my mouth....

[madfloridian]

112. You hit the nail on the head.

The grassroots funding. The bad taste will probably stay because we saw the true power of the corporate America. Part of it through our own party.

[beaumandy]

115. Dean

I think Dean had a better chance to win than Kerry does. Dean was the true voice of the democrat. Kerry is now acting like some war hawk who is going to defeat the world.

I also don't think Gore or Ted Kennedy help Kerry with the undecided voters because they seem insane to those who take a quick look.

[liberalron]

136. He/We/They did move on

Dr. Dean is working to elect Democrats on all levels of government, especially the U.S. Congress, where the real power is.

[JPJones]

118. Iowa sank the Dean campaign

Clinton sank the Clark campaign. Unions sank the Gephardt campaign. Reason sank the Kucinich campaign. Democrats sank the Lieberman campaign. It could go on forever.

The choice is Kerry or Bush now.

[madfloridian]

120. The choice is whether to fall for the GOP spin on Gore and Dean.

That was really what started this thread. Gore had a speech, Dean's column starts this week. The RW media is trying to down them in one blow.

And many here are falling for it bigtime. They both speak out passionately for the Democratic cause as they see it. The Kerry campaign will make a HUGE mistake if they do not support this speech.

My hubby just told out me that tv and the local paper said the Kerry campaign did not like Gore's speech. Either he fell for spin, or it is true. Either way, someone better clarify something. Gore told the truth. He told it well. Kerry best not back off from it.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

123. Because that's what YOU want people to think.

f<S re THRILLED Kerry is the nominee and have wanted to see him as president for many years.[br />
Kerry has exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history. Honest citizens who care about good governance would bear that in mind.

Those who are still angry that Kerry exposed the illegalalities and cravenness of the Republican thugs in BCCI, IranContra and the CIA drugrunning are probably hoping the Democratic party will NOT unite behind Kerry.

Too bad for them.

[Pastiche423]

125. It seems that way

because it is the truth.

[leesa]

130. The media sanlk the Dean campaign. Overnight. Same as they

have done to many non-corporate whores

[mzmolly]

133. Funny how Dean still invokes such passionate discussions.

And now, back to the subject matter ... Gore didn't sink shit.

Dean lost for a variety of reasons.

#1... people in the end wanted what they percieved "a safe choice" to go up against Bush.

#2. The media, knowing this, made Dean appear unstable by mixing sound, and playing the infamous Iowa speech time and time again-among other things. (Dean dared threaten the media monopolies) big no no.

Dean also ran lousy campaign ads, and he and Gephardt turned of voters in Iowa by negative campaigning against one another. ;)

Dean would have been an excellent President, but he's not going away. I am certain he will contribute to our democracy for years to come.

[sangh0]

156. How did Dean's concession speech cause him to lose Iowa

when the speech wasnt given until AFTER he lost Iowa?

If you are going to admit that Dean lost Iowa by himself, and that it wasn't the media (as you claim in your point #2) that caused him to lose, then why make the claim that Dean lost NH because of the concession speech when he didn't need that to lose in Iowa?

Dean lost in NH for the same reasons he lost in IA.

[fujiyama]

134. I don't understand

how people on this board can take whatever David Brooks says seriously.

This guy is a complete right wing ass hole. Most of the "liberal" NYT op ed page is filled with these ass hole right wingers.

Let's see, we have that ex Nixon speechwriter (Satire), then Brooks, then that idiot Iraq war propagandist Friedman...

The only two decent columnists are Krugman and Herbert (he was actually full of praise for Gore's speech).

As for the primary, it's obvious that there were several reasons why Dean's campaign went under. Part of it was the ad war in IA with Gep, then there was the "scream" speech, which was IMO a bad speech, but was exagerrated by the media, and it all kinda snowballed after that...and undoubtably he also made himself unpopular with many in the DLC.

No one in particular sunk the Dean campaign. It was a combination of bad luck and a few strategic missteps.

[kaitykaity]

135. I don't take him seriously, which is precisely

why I was pissed off that he got in his slam on Dean/Gore,
and that was the last word.

As to the rest . . . it's like the Green/Dem war that went
on after 2000--fun for a little while, but it never goes
anywhere.

[fujiyama]

137. Very true

When I first joined this board I would participate and even created a few threads on the Green/Dem war. After a while though it just got old.

I was here for the primary battles, but thankfully never got involved.

[SoCalDem]

163. The media assassinated Dean's campaign.. Nothing new there

SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-07-04 04:19 PM
Original message
The "New" Assassins!

Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 04:50 PM by SoCalDem
Poor Jack Kennedy, Poor Martin Luther King, Poor James Meredith, Poor Malcolm X, Poor Bobby Kennedy...and so many others who were "under the radar", and we never even knew ..

People who dare to speak out are always in fear for their lives, and those named paid the ultimate price for their "free speech".

Had they lived now, in a more "evolved" time, they might have never had to die for their audacity. People who made waves back then were just "dealt with" in the crudest, but most effective way of the day......elimination.. Everyday people were stunned, shocked, saddened, outraged, and then they moved on. Daily life has a way of taking over, and except for a poignant "anniversary" acknowledgment, or the recurring "conspiracy talk", these people just passed into history as tragic figures.

Those assassinations did serve a purpose though. The message sent was loud and clear. Say the Wrong thing, and you are DONE.

In the "modern" world, although there are still assassination attempts here and there, the "serious" ones are not as common . A more efficient way of handling "rogue elements" is the new and improved way...Assassination by Media is the more accepted way now. If one looks back to the period following the Bobby Kennedy assassination, you can see it taking root. Bobby's slaying might have been the straw that broke the camel's back, in that people were ready to say..ENOUGH!!. People took to the streets and things got too "messy" for the old ways to ever work again.

Flash forward to the Watergate era. At first the story dribbled out and people did not pay a lot of attention, but the Washington Post knew they had a story and they kept at it like a junkyard dog. They challenged BIG GOVERNMENT, and they never quit. When the story finally got the attention of the general public, and Nixon was taken down, the press was bolder than ever before.

This was the era of the "white paper".... 60 Minutes was the very embodiment of "make them accountable".. They went after sleazy business practices and governmental screw-ups, and they hit hard.The show they do today is more "individual driven", and is pure tabloid journalism when compared to the way they started. The targets of their "investigation" are often beleaguered people who are already overextended financially by lawsuits or other problems, so they are probably less likely to sue, or they are the pathetic , sympathy-inducing people who have been "done wrong".

Behind the scenes though, there was a group of people who were seething with anger over what had just happened, and they were determined to get things "under control again". This was the beginning of media consolidation. Towns that had once had 2 or 3 competing newspapers, now had only one, television was still the "big three", Republican Think Tanks were sprouting up like toadstools after rain.

Jimmy Carter's tenure was the "test case" for what would come later. This gentle man was attacked in the press for every little thing. The Nixon hangover may have been partly to blame, since people were genuinely more interested in what went on "behind the curtain", but the things that Carter was berated about were just plain silly..Who remembers the "lusting in his heart" episode...or the "attack of the killer bunny".. or the "he wears sweaters in the oval office".."turn down your thermostats"...or "Amy is so ugly".. Those were the memes of the day.. The press chose to amplify these things to make this man appear to be a lightweight. The real problems he encounters as president were things not of his making, and It think he did try to solve them, but with only one term, and the difficulties of the first "oil crisis", and the "hostage thing", he was doomed..

Nightline was born out of the frustration of the hostage crisis. That show started as a one hour news program with a daily update on the hostages.

A rootin-tootin Dubya would have just saddled up (other people's kids) and attacked Iran, and if the hostages were killed, it would have been "collateral damage", but Carter thought he could negotiate them home. This was our first real experience with the "new middle east". They were radical.. They were mad.. They were Bad.The old ways would never work again. Oddly enough, we now know that some of the very same people we associate with the Reagan/Bush , Bush # 1, and Bush # 2 regimes were involved , behind-the scenes , in the Iran Hostage issue.. At the time, I do not recall hearing their names mentioned when Nightline went on night after night, enumerating the "days since....".

The press attacked Carter relentlessly, and I do not recall much rallying on his behalf from anyone, and the hostage crisis did him in. It was not accidental that the hostages were released at the exact moment of Reagan's swearing in. Bush 1 had CIA connections, and the Bush loyalists (the same ones we have now) choreographed the incident masterfully, and the press ate it up. People love a winner, and Reagan came in as a winner. It was also no accident that doing away with the fairness doctrine was high on the list of "things to do".

The republicans were riding high, awash with money, and the public gaze was averted. Inflation was rampant,unemployment was high,there had been wage & price freezes and gas shortages... All in all, people were willing to "be taken care of", and they trusted the grandfatherly guy they had seen in the movies. It was not long before the doctrine was gone, and without that, it was easy for very rich ideologues to start buying up media , and they did it with a vengeance.

Looking back, it's not hard to see how effective it was. The things that have been attributed to Reagan/Bush 1 would have never been tolerated by a Democratic administration.The Clinton years showed us that , in spades.

The switchover was seamless too. Local radio stations had mostly been music, with local hosts who did silly home town pranks, held local contests for their listeners, and had news on the hour. Somewhere during this time frame, "talk/opinion" formats started really emerging, and more and more stations gave up their music formats altogether.

What better way is there to ensure that a particular opinion saturates the public, than to have local radio stations all under the same corporate ownership?. If station ABCD in Omaha is owned by the same parent company as most of the others in the area, the "movement" between stations will not happen. In the past, a radio host could get into a jam with his bosses, and the next week, he was on a competing station in a nearby town, taking a lot of his listeners with him, but when the same people own all the stations, and a host goes against the wishes of his bosses, there is NOWHERE for him to go. The atmosphere of "go-along-to-get-along" stifles any real discussion of opposing ideas.

When the major source of information of a population only airs ONE viewpoint, it's easy to demonize the opposition. The "media people" had , and still have, easy access to their own "facts" that are regularly churned out by the think tanks, they have access to all the "professional speakers/pundits" that they could ever use (also cheerfully provided by the think tanks). These same people are often editorial columnists for the papers , who just happen to be owned by the same people who own/operate the radio & TV stations.. .

There was a time when, once an election was over, people just licked their wounds, accepted that they had lost and then vowed to try again. The "new assassins" in the media cannot ever allow the "quiet time" between elections, because the fires must always be stoked. The potential adversaries must be ridiculed,belittled,scorned, accused and abused, well in advance of the next election so that the "right" people win. The unusual aspect of this , is that since the Fairness Doctrine went by the wayside, it's usually the Democratic candidates who are put through the grinder, while republican candidates with more "baggage" are treated with kid gloves. Any misgivings about a republican candidate can be explained away as a "youthful indiscretion", or a "cute colloquialism" ,or a "miscalculation", or "getting inaccurate advice", and so many more.

A candidate who has all the qualities necessary for office, is attacked mercilessly from the moment they announce they are running for office. The 24/7 media of today is expert at the art of "linguistic assassination", and they have the time to do the job well.

Election 2000 is a prime example of assassination by media. Al Gore was a vice president. He did not wield the power that our current vice president does. He had impeccable credentials, was eloquent, had a squeaky clean family life, and lived modestly considering his position. He was actually considered dull. He never presented himself as a "life-of-the-party" guy.He was the studious guy, who read bills before he voted. He was the guy who did research. He was the guy who actually went to Viet Nam , even though he was not a Green Beret with a bayonet between his teeth, singlehandedly wiping out a division of Viet Cong.The fact is ..He went.

They hammered at him about his wardrobe. Every little gaffe, was portrayed as a LIE. His opponent was secretive, smart-assed, sullen, and unknowledgeable, yet HE was portrayed as "a bit rough", "a nice guy that you would like to have a beer with", " a friendly "people-person", and too many others to list. By implication, HE was the guy with the white hat, the Good Guy, and poor old Gore was the liar with the bad fashion sense, who was dull. The daily indictment and litany of his "sins" was impossible to ignore, and every interview started and finished with him trying to refute the smears aimed at him, and him alone.

The assassins have taken aim this election season, and again they have taken aim and have wounded, if not killed, a few of the possible candidates. The media has moved from a position of watching what happens, and then reporting on it, to MAKING it happen, and then tweaking it to make an ever-better "story"..

The little known governor from a small state ..hmm that sounds familiar... is such a good story. Howard Dean was this cycle's John McCain. The press loved him.....until they had built him up to almost rock-star status, and then the only thing for them to do to get more ratings, was to "kill" him. And so they did.. They report with childlike wonder at why "he's not doing better in the polls", and then they laugh and giggle and "cue up the tape".. Then they put on their scrunched up worried face and wonder if the campaign is broke.. They are "so concerned".. They cluck-cluck to each other about how disappointing it is to see him not doing well, and yet they have already reloaded for the next victim.

Now on to the next willing contestant, John "Botox" Kerry.




By the time the election actually occurs, the candidate has been hopelessly smeared, and politically assassinated.. It not only can remove a candidate from the prospect of elected office, but it effectively silences them as well.

Assassination by media is so much more effective, since the whole "martyr thing" is eliminated and it's not nearly as "untidy" as the old way..

[madfloridian]

166. "These Dogs Don't Hunt" The new assassins.

SoCalDem and Jen6 said it well.