I think rising fuel prices are good

[Bandit]

At least in the long run. I know they hurt like hell right now and will cause major inflation but they will also spur a much more rapid development of Alternative Energy and get us off the oil tit quicker. We need to get away from our dependence upon oil from foreign sources and I'm not advocating for the opening of the Wildlife Refuge. I want conservation and alternative energy to be our main thrust and rising fuel prices help that along. I am actually for increased consumption taxes for gasoline and diesel fuel that is not used for home heating. The sooner we can grab the bull by the horns the sooner we can avoid more Iraqs. Let the price of oil climb and watch the Consevatives bitch. This is a winning issue for us. We need to address it.

[NMDemDist2]

1. i'm not complaining, I figure my gas bill is up by 1/3 and happy to

pay it. I see it as a contribution to the Kerry camp :D

[wryter2000]

4. I'm fine with it, too

I drive an efficient car, and I can afford the gas. I love to hear the folks who commute all alone in their huge SUV's complaining. I do feel awful for people who have to drive for their businesses, though.

[NMDemDist2]

5. argh---- I fit both those catagories

alone in my SUV for business

but last summer I traded in my big V-8 Dodge for a inline 6 Chevy. Went from 13MPG to over 20MPG thank heaven

[Jacobin]

2. 'Cheap' gas is one of our biggest problems

Creates demand for gas hogs.
Global warming problem.
People think gas is "cheap" without factoring in the huge taxes we pay for military to protect oil sources.
Middle East intrigues.

Europe is well on its way to some semblance of energy independence over the next couple of decades. We have barely started.

It stupid, stort sighted, expensive, environmentally crazy and not good policy to have "cheap gas".

I agree completely.

[shraby]

3. With Shrub in

there won't be an aggressive effort to turn to alternative fuels..he's an oil man, remember? We need a regime change to get an honest attempt to find alternative fuels.

[candy331]

6. Sounds good for all those that can afford it

but what about all those Walmart workers and do remember the Welfare to Work Folks, with w/o access to public transportation?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. What percentage of people don't have access to a bus?

If there's a WalMart, there's a bus.

[Snoggera]

12. Not necessarily true

While much of the population is in cities, particularly in the East, many millions live in smaller towns west of the Mississippi. For an example, take New Mexico. According to my knowledge, there are bus systems that run on a regular schedule in Las Cruces, Albuquerque and Roswell. That takes care of maybe 600,000 people potentially. In Clovis, there is a bus that will pick you up and bring you home if you call at least one day in advance to reserve the ride. What do the other 1 million people in the state do? They drive because they have to. Mass transit is not an option, and the distances are great from one place to the next.

Carpooling is an option.

BTW - my community has neither a Walmart (thank the gods) nor a transit system.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. I disagree.

Mass transit doesn't mean that the bus/train picks you up at your house. The premise of my original statement was that high gas prices would force mass transit. The higher prices will force taxpayers to demand that their resources are targeted at mass transit hubs in their area, as opposed to building more roads. It doesn't happen overnight. Just as the price of gas won't jump from $2 to $5 overnight. Even if the hub is 5 miles away, it's better than driving 40 miles to and from work everyday.

The automobile, in it's present form, will be obsolete in 60 years. Long past time to start planning for that eventuallity.

[QC]

41. So what should working people do in the meantime,

while they're waiting for the mass transit systems, fuel cells, solar cars, etc?

Give up eating? Live in cardboard boxes?

It's all very nice to dream, but a lot of people are hurting now. And believe me, small towns and rural areas do not have mass transit. Anyone who can blithely state that there's mass transit everywhere there's a WalMart clearly has no idea what life is really like outside the cities.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

56. Move closer to work? Buy a fuel efficient car? Bicycle?

:think:

What does the average person pay a year for gasoline? $500-$1000? When multiplied by the tax base, sprinkled with Federal matching funds, that would provide buses and drivers. No waiting for anything. Believe it or not, they already have buses made. All you gotta do is demand it from your locally elected officials.

One can either bury their head in the sand and moan about the price of gas (which ain't going to be getting cheaper) or they can confront the fact that fossil fuels are going bye-bye. Every day that we wait only makes the transition more painful. Is it going to be easy? No. Is it going to be easier in the future? Hell no!

Btw, I grew up in a town of 800. Please describe these mystical places where the local WalMart is in the middle of nowhere, far from a major thoroughfare.

[QC]

61. Buy a new car with what?

We're talking about poor people, remember? And very often housing in outlying areas is cheaper. That's why I live so far from where I used to work--because snowbird retirees drove up the cost of housing in town so high that people who work for a living can no longer afford to live there.

We're talking long-term vs. short-term here. I agree with the need to reduce consumption, but I think you're neglecting to consider what happens to people who need to get to work right now, while we're still waiting for the mass transit and fuel cells and all that.

[KoKo]

24. Not in really rural areas. And public transportation has been under-

funded during the Bushies. I live in a city but our bus schedules have been cut way back. Then there's the safety issue. If you work a night schedule there may not be a bus you could take or would want to if you are a female. Standing out in at an odd hour in some places would put you in danger.

Plus in most of America people today drive an over a half hour to work. You need to get to big metropolitan areas because there aren't the farming or local industries that used to exist in rural American even ten years ago...

Those folks drive lots and the gas bills are killing them because they work for Walmart, Home Depot and in the Restaurant or Home Repair Business which is HVAC and Repair, Landscape maintenance, etc.

There's a whole part of America that this will hurt. We in the cities will have it much better.

Full Disclosure: I grew up in Rural America and have lived in cities.

Perspective of mine is from both, and I've been around a little while seeing how it is. :shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. The problem isn't going away. Time to pay the piper.

(See post #56)

Although I see your point about swing/gy shifts and safety.

As a citizen it's your duty to demand that these issues are addressed. Bitching at Texaco won't do it. Regulating Texaco and demanding infrastructure changes from your government(you and your neighbors) will.

[Jacobin]

28. wages will have to rise to accomodate the true cost of fuel

If Walmart wants to get its workers to work.

Otherwise, maybe they'll do buses to pick them up if transportation is too expensive for the working poor.
It's better than the alternative of our addiction to M.E. intrigues and spending gazillions on military to keep oil supplies secure.

[QC]

45. Wages are not going to go up so long

as we are exporting jobs, importing cheap labor, and destroying the social safety net. All this is why median family incomes have stagnated since the early 70s'. Why should we expect anything to change just because gas prices have gone up--similar inflation in housing and food costs hasn't led to an increase in wages.

[progressiveBadger]

7. I had a professor in an Enviro Studies class in college

That spent an entire week driving home the hidden costs of gas in the US. That was four years ago. I hope now he is spending a month on the subject.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Underpriced by half.

High prices force mass transit. I see that as good.

[Deja Q]

44. People also whine that change needs to be gradual when radicals say

"Change NOW NOW NOW!"

Well, if you (or anyone else) can fucking afford $4 per gallon, go ahead and pay it. I cannot. Neither can many others.

And like many others, I drive a long distance to and from work.

When I talked of alternative societies in the future, I was always told "Change takes time" and other such bullshit.

And aren't people afraid of change?

So why are now people saying "Change NOW NOW NOW!"???

There's also no reliable form of mass transit in place and that exacerbates the problem. They're starting in MN and I regret being against light rail but I've changed my tune. We need reliable mass transmit. But given the human garbage in society who run society, there's going to be a catch that helps the few and fucks the rest of us.

As far as I care anymore, these are the last days of humankind. Enjoy it while we can. History's done, turn the page.

[karoon]

10. Hopefully they'll go up even more

finally start laughing my a** off at all the stiff white guys in their surburbans.

[QC]

38. It's not the Suburban crowd who is hurting.

It's the people who are barely able to put food on the table and now have to spend more on gas.

Should we laugh at them, too?

[Deja Q]

46. I'm laughing at them now. Of course, do you laugh at the killer when he

sticks a knife in your chest? :shrug:

The SUV/Hummer owners are killing us along with themselves.

Society is getting what it deserves. This is NOTHING to be smug about. WE ARE SOCIETY, by the way. ALL of us. WE allowed the greedy and wasteful to take over. This is as much OUR FAULT as it is theirs.

So as they stab me and twist the handle, I'll laugh right along. For the knife in their chest is twice as sharp.

[AP]

11. Unfortunately, they're creating profits which buy off politicians so that

the legislate an enviroment which prevents competition from alternative energy for the petrol industry.

If the high prices were brought to you by taxes which generated revenue which was invested into university research and small business loans for competitors, that would be good.

But that isn't happening.

[Bandit]

14. You are correct except that people are paying for those profits and

they are going to demand that things change. They aren't quite so sophisticated as to finesse it the way you have and they will raise their voices. That is what is going to spur change not politicians.

[AP]

23. Unless the government legislates a better environment,

they won't have many choices.

And I'll tell you what will happen. Everyone will buy a small car. In three years, gas prices will drop, and car companies will only market huge cars, and everyone will buy a huge car.

Without a political committment to change, high gas prices are just contributing to the increased political power of companies that don't want people to be able to chose alternative engery sources.

[immune2irony]

13. Of course you like high gas prices. You're Alaskan

Why don't you just admit it?

[Bandit]

16. I admit I'm an Alaskan

:shrug: I also explained my reasons for my post. What's your point?
I also said I am opposed to opening the Wildlife Refuge.

[KoKo]

33. kick

:kick:

[Don_G]

15. Maybe

We're hurting now but if Kerry gets into office and enough of us raise hell, maybe we can ask for a special prosecutor/forensic accountant team to compare the financial dealings between their actions and the lesiglature they've passed with their bank accounts.

That, if anything, will open the Freeper's fanatical eyes open long enough to accept the fact that they've been used.

[AntiCoup2K4]

18. Some of you "alternative energy" dreamers need to realize.....

...that it ain't just gas that's gone ridiculously high in price, it's damn near EVERYTHING!!

Can you afford the price of everything to continue skyrocketing? I can't.

And until that Star Trek "beam me up" shit becomes a reality, shipping and transportation is going to require fuel, and the corporations will pass those costs on to the consumer. Who gets the hardest impact? Not the millionaire driving the 80,000 Hummer, that's for damn sure.

Obviously, throwing the oil industry criminals out of the White House is a good move. But even before then, the criminals must be held accountible for their price fixing. This is true economic terrorism, and theres not ONE fucking benefit from it, except to those raking in the money illegally.

[SoCalDem]

20. And, the dreams of "mass transit" are nothing but dreams

There USED to be mass transit in most cities, but the post-war glut of young men returning with money in their pockets, and the GI Bill waiting for them, meant that the birth of suburbs was imminent.That meant CARS...and lots of 'em.

The rubber industry guys colluded with the auto industry, the concrete guys,and the fuel guys... and before you could say abracadabra, the buses and trolley cars were all smashed to smithereens, and the REASON to have cars had arrived..

There was a time when even midsized towns had trolley cars and bus transportation, cities were linked together with cheap rail and bus service..

The interstate system demanded that those things be demolished, or not enough people would buy cars to justify that huge expense.. Of course the "planners" knew that by the time it was built it would be practically obsolete, and they would be leaving millions of people in the dust..

At first cars were indeed cheap, and people did enjoy the freedom that cars brought, but gas was 15 cents a gallon or less back then.. Just like the dope dealer hands out freebies until you are hooked, they kept it low priced, until they had completed their task of getting rid of all those "ugly old buses and those rattle-trap trolleys"..

Now cities all over are trying to re-create those public transporation devices that they threw away so willingly, and of course it is costing them BILLIONS now...

Penny-wise and pound-foolish as always..

[Jacobin]

30. A buggy whip manufacturer excuse. Very well done

Sounds like all the people who "knew" that the horseless carriage would never take off. Scares horses. Too noisy. Cost too much. Don't have roads they can drive on. Nobody knows how to drive one.

We can either get real and understand that the age of fossil fuels for use as ordinary cheap transportation are coming to an end, or have it smack us up side the head when there is not enough to go around.

Take your pick.

Dream world? Yeah, sure. When we stop dreaming, we start dying.

[AntiCoup2K4]

52. You misunderstood my point.

I wasn't saying there's anything wrong with alternative energy. I welcome it. But I don't believe that allowing the Bush Criminal Empire to make trillions in profits illegally while the entire economy goes into a shitter that will make the Great Depression seem like a recovery, is the best way to go about achieving that goal. Removing and prosecuting those criminals is. If people can't get to work to earn money to put food that they can't afford to buy on their family's dinner table, how in the Hell is that going to speed up the development of alternative energy?? Let's neutralize the criminal elements in the current system first, for the benefit of the entire country. Then work on the new systems when those assholes are shut down.

[ibegurpard]

32. Yup.

Exactly what I said down below. Prices for EVERYTHING will increase because of transportation costs.

[Baltimoreboy]

19. It's a regressive tax on the poor

And it doesn't spur industry one bit.

[QC]

51. It's even worse than that, I'm afraid.

At least a tax would return some money to the larger society and provide for its needs. High gas prices just put more money in the pockets of those who are already obscenely rich.

[Baltimoreboy]

55. Thanks for the correction

You are right.

[BeFree]

21. Politically Reality

We should be screaming our bloody heads off about oil prices and spread the idea that * is at fault.

[KoKo]

22. It hurts those who have to travel a long distance for jobs..though and

families already at the "tipping point.'

But, I agree that we've coasted for too long on cheap everything. Conservation gave way to Excess. And we lost our focus in the 90's
with the "Dot Com Feel Good, Full Employment" Society.

We are going to need to deal with the Reality that the Party in Cheap Resources can't go on forever. But, I hate to see folks "on the edge" who need to drive long distances (where there's little or no public transportation available get hurt).

Still...I remember the Gas Lines of the Carter Era where we pooled together and got involved with Car Pools and cut back those one stop trips and made ourselves plan better.

So, yes, Bandit...there's much good that could come out of this. If one looks at the downsides and how one copes.

[rucky]

25. Working Poor n/t

[Commendatori]

26. If they reduce Bush's chances of reselection, they're GRRRRREAT! (n/t)

[iamjoy]

27. More Of A Silver Lining

to the dark cloud. But only if we learn our lesson and DEMAND improved fuel standards. What is this nonsense that some one can write off the entire cost of a Hummer on their income taxes but only gets a measly couple thousand dollars for a hybrid?

[Pepperbelly]

29. for the working poor, such long range rhetoric is offensive ...

particlarly if they're using 40 gallons a month to get to work. Personally, my concern is far more short-range ... that is, getting from one payday to the next. Something that hurts poor people badly is not something to encourage.

[QC]

39. Very true, but you're not

going to get many people around here to give any thought or concern to the working poor. Believe me, I've tried.

[Pepperbelly]

42. it's bizarre how people at both ends of the spectrum do not mind ...

if others have to sacrifice for their pet notion to come to fruition.

[QC]

43. Ideologues are generally that way.

Reality must conform to ideology, mere facts be damned.

[dpibel]

53. If it hurts poor people, it can't happen

I am continually perplexed by this line of reasoning. The initial poster says the rise in gas prices may have good side effects by ramping up demand for alternative energy. Others in the thread suggest that another effect may be greater reliance on mass transit (including, by necessary inference, development of mass transit where it does not exist, or is inadequate).

Then folks jump in and say, "You're not considering how this will hurt poor people," and "Yes, but people around here just don't care about poor people, no matter how hard I try to make them."

Riddle me this: I was under the impression that gas prices have already risen precipitously. Am I wrong about that? Because, unless I'm mistaken about that, I can't see how examining the possible side effects of high gas prices constitutes pissing on the poor. If I'm correct, and gas prices have gone 'way up lately (and I freely admit I could be hallucinating about that), then the effects on the poor are already happening, and were happening even before the evil, elitist, inconsiderate people on this thread started talking about high gas prices as impetus for alternative energy, conservation, and mass transit.

Could y'all explain to me how discussing something that is already happening--that is already hurting the poor--constitutes wishing ill upon the poor, or being inconsiderate of them.

It almost seems to me as if people are saying, "Well, if it hurts the poor to have gas prices go up, y'all should be trying to get gas prices down." But gas prices are up, no matter what we might wish, or who might be hurt by it. That's a short term reality. It's not the fault of anybody who posts on this board. Please explain to me how thinking that reviving/creating a good mass transit system is a poorer long-term solution to an already extant short-term problem than saying, "We have to keep doing what we've been doing all along." If you bring down gas prices because of the short-term harm to poor people, you're just forestalling the inevitable, and when it gets really bad, there's going to be serious, long-term pain.

I guess that puts me squarely in the hard-hearted elitist camp, but I'm damned if I can figure out why.

[Pepperbelly]

54. because the prices are being raised in collusion with the Bushies ...

and the only hope that us poor folk have of relief in this short of the election would be if Bush would at the very least STOP filling the strategic oil reserves. The reserves already hold more than 600 million barrels and Bush is BUYING better than 100 K a day for the stockpiles.

Contrast that to the oil blip in 2K. Bill Clinton released some of the reserves and simultaneously announced a DOJ probe of price gouging and like magic, the price plummeted. The point is, political pressure to spur this remedy will not be gained by lefties cheering high prices and gouging onward and upward, as several posters in this thread did.

[ibegurpard]

31. Maybe

but it's very bad for the consumer (and I'm not just talking about filling up your gas tank) and will hit the poor the hardest. EVERYTHING is transported by air or truck. Prices of everything are going up to absorb the gas prices. We can't just say "Oh, gas prices need to climb so we get off our oil addiction faster." This affects more than SUV-driving soccer moms. If prices continue to climb we need to find a way to offer relief for those who can't afford the price increases.

[Darranar]

34. Well, I think a more effective solution...

would be to tax gas, therefore forcing the base price down and stopping oil companies and various tyrannical regimes from profiting from these high prices.

The money would all go into strengthening the public transportation system.

[Baltimoreboy]

35. So you also support high gas prices?

What about people who live in rural areas that aren't served by "public" transportation? What do they do?

Public transportation is great where it exists, but much of the U.S. is without it.

[Darranar]

36. Which is why it needs to be expanded and strengthened. n/t

[Baltimoreboy]

37. Typical urban thinking

Much of the U.S. is still not urban. Mass transit for them is a fantasy. That leaves you with a couple choices:

* Make the tax localized, which it already is.
* Allow tax credits for people who live in rural areas.
* Try something else.

Am I leaving anything out?

[Darranar]

50. Fair enough...

of those three ideas, the second is my preference (and it also could be used for the working poor), which I probably should have included in my earlier post.

The main problems are in city traffic jams and pollution, anyway.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepperbelly]

49. whatever .... nt

[BiggJawn]

58. "Corrected for Inflation" is a ReTHUGlican/libertarian Weasel Word.

And as such is BULLSHIT.
Now, is that a 1950 "only 10 cents more" or is that a 2004 "Corrected for Inflation" 10 cents more.

Why is it everything's always "corrected for inflation from 1950" exept my paycheck?

Or would I really have been making only 75 cents an hour back then?

[hippiegranny]

47. also of note

quite a few die-hard big truck and suv owners i have argued with over the past couple of years have finally admitted they need to think about reducing their own consumption (because it is too expensive, of course, no other reason, but hey...) and one of them actually put himself on the list for a prius.

anything that helps the fuel piggies take a second look might not be totally bad. on the other hand, i feel bad for people whose income level is already so low and who now can barely afford to get to those crappy paying jobs.

[KoKo]

48. Huh? Is this the DU Union Support thread..our little band left here on

DU who care about this kind of stuff? Sad..

[BiggJawn]

59. The conservatives won't bitch, this is a LOSING issue for us.

You forget-most Conservatives are flush enough that "higher gas prices are like the buzzing of FLIES to him. He is HUMMER!"

It is hurting working poor like me and my girlfriend, and will CONTINUE to hurt us, because the oil fat-cats will NOT get serious about alternative energy until the Oil Tit has been sucked so dry it looks like a seal-a-meal bag.

I read people calling for higher taxes and prices to "wean" us off our consumption, and right away I think "Oh, one of those ultra-lefties who either still lives on his mom's couch or works at a sandwich shop on the bus line, or makes enough that they can absorb the $2 a gallon tax they're calling for and still send $500 to NPR twice a year..." IOW, someone who has NO thought to the plight of poor people who DON'T have mass transit, who can't AFFORD a nice new 50-mpg hybrid....Limosine Liberals, IOW...

We didn't develop alternative energy during the first gas crunch in the 70's and we're sure as shit not gonna do it now, not with GM needing to move all those obscene H-2's...

[Bandit]

60. You are right we need not even mention alternative energy or Cafe standard

You are absolutely correct that if we so much as mention that prices are too high the poor will suffer. I will not bother to mention to anyone that things could be a lot better if some of those poor people would get off their asses and vote. Over half of the nation doesn't bother to vote. Why because they think they have nothing at stake. They think they have no influence over gas prices or who's president or anything for that matter. Is that because leftists like me have the audacity to mention that high prices cause one to think of alternatives.:crazy: I am glad this is out in the public arena. I want these poor people to start feeling the pinch then maybe just maybe they will get off their asses and do something. Instead of sitting here on some chat board complaining how no one considers how badly they have it. What is you olution to the rape and pillage of america. Slam other progressive thought because it happens to mention that pain sometimes is necessary to create change. You are very correct that those that drive the hummers and vote republican aren't going to bitch. The ones that are going to bitch are mostly those that forfet their right to bitch by never voting. Okay let's say I want their pain to continue forever andget prices down a little so they can continue to muddle by and never make an effort to make change
That will make it all better right? I own a business where all my product is freighted in by barge with very high rates and I have six delivery vehicles. High prices effect me more than the great majority on this board but I am also savvy enough to know that things will never change without some pain for the common folk. the elite won't feel it so they won't cause change. I feel it hard and yet I think a lot more noise will be heard if it gets worse.