U.S. divided: Worse now than in Vietnam era?

[takebackthewh]

Here's another question I am pondering. I only came of age for Watergate; I missed all the Vietnam furor.

A lot of talk out there now about how the nation is polarized over Bush and Iraq; split in two halves that despise one another.

Well, didn't the same thing happen during the Vietnam War?

What caused the greater divisiveness and bitterness? Vietnam or Iraq? Which period of our history was meaner?

I'm really curious to hear from people a little bit older than I.

:think:

[drthais]

1. I, too, missed Vietnam but was there for Watergate

I often wonder:

does the intensity of our aversion
to Bush and his war
resonate in a similar way
to those who protested the war in Vietman?

I'll bet it does

the sad difference is....
we are not out on the streets in large numbers
although I would venture to bet
that our numbers are equally large

shame on us

[KuroKensaki]

4. I agree..

If we do not speak,
And let slip the dogs of war,
We too are guilty.

For evil's triumph,
All that is needed is for
Good to do nothing.

Or so said this one
Really smart guy that I know
From history class.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Correction

WE HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS

But the so called Liberal Media has refused to cover it

I know, from experience...

We have not remained as silent as you think

Do we have to take to the streets? YES, even now... and until
Shrub is gone....

But DO NOT think there have been no demonstrations... there have been

[Media_Lies_Daily]

2. We had more time to become really polarized during the Vietnam War...

...it took a little over eight years to lose 800 troops in Vietnam while it only took a little over a year and a half to lose 800 in Iraq.

I fear that things are going to get REAL ugly REAL fast. The full impact of what the NeoCons have done has not yet fully sunk in with a good portion of America, but that's changing very quickly. The combination of the poor economy, lower wages, higher prices, and the rising death toll in Iraq is beginning to mount up.

Even as we speak, there is a struggle going on behind the scenes for control of the government. The DIA, certain senior military officers, and the CIA are actively leaking information at a raid rate in hopes of getting the NeoCons thrown out of power.

I've also been really curious lately whether or not the guy that carries the nuclear codes is still following Junior around. If the codes are no longer in Junior's vicinity, then that is a very good sign that Junior is on his way out. That happened once before when General Al Haig became Chief-of-Staff to Nixon about a year before Nixon resigned.

[KuroKensaki]

3. Not -quite-..

I dunno, that was in the beggining of Vietnam. When we get a draft up and get a full complement of 500,000 soldiers over there and Al Sadr gets really serious (maybe with assistance from Iran) and we start seeing 500 American deaths a week... It'll get even more polarized than it is now.

Right now I don't think it's as bad as it was during Vietnam, but it's close. We're definitely the most polarized we've been SINCE Vietnam.

So much for 'uniter, not divider'.

Kuro

P.S.: In the interests of full disclosure, I missed Vietnam and Watergate both. I'm just working from historical background.

[takebackthewh]

5. Man, I thought I was young. nt

[KuroKensaki]

20. Twenty and some change baby, yeah. n/t

[ngGale]

10. The Vietnam War compared to Iraq...

Quote/I've also been really curious lately whether or not the guy that carries the nuclear codes is still following Junior around. If the codes are no longer in Junior's vicinity, then that is a very good sign that Junior is on his way out. That happened once before when General Al Haig became Chief-of-Staff to Nixon about a year before Nixon resigned.
__________________________________

Didn't know about the codes, I've been so worried lately. If I think Junior is being deprived I just may sleep tonight. What a peaceful feeling.

Vietnam V Iraq--Mmmmm, well honey. Just imagine that you are in Junior High and years later you enter high school and we are still fighting in Iraq. But the difference is you look up one day and the draft is upon you. And you think, this has been going on as long as I can remember, when is it going to end. That's when the real protesting starts. Years of dieing and nothing changing, looks so far it's still the same way. My hope is that Iraq does have an ending.

[Old and In the Way]

6. I think it was different back in the late 60s.

There was a pretty amazing cultural revolution in the late 60s that still reverb today. The VietNam War was certainly a polarizing issue in the society, but it seemed to be more generational. Our society today doesn't have that generational divide, the discord seems to be based on political-religious identification. And it's certainly accelerated since the mid-90s. The CLinton Inquisition, the stolen election, and the complete disaster that the Bush administration has foisted on us; all these things have created a backlash by the Left who are sick of the bullshit that the RW has thrown at us. It's pretty apparent that the endgame is a one-party politic that values wealth and cororations over the commonweal. It's a fight to the death....one side or the other will win out. I hope to God it's our side.

[ConsAreLiars]

16. 'Old and In the Way' sums it up perfectly

Vietnam came after the Cold War, McCarthy purges, Rosenberg executions and such had decimated the left during the fifties. 10-20 years later the civil rights movement and anti-imperialist movements again re-emerged due to the facts of life. We created an enduring trend in society which recognized and challenged the WTO and the PNAC plans for the conquest and occupation of Iraq (and Afghanistan) far more quickly and powerfully than was possible during the earlier period of Vietnam or the Civil Rights struggle.

So we are stronger than we were, but they have also had 40 more years of consolidating corporatism and building up the brownshirt organizations (from the so-called Moral Majority to the Christian Right to the Asscrapt fundies now at the center of the US State Apparatus), and the stakes are that much higher. Then the question was whether "we" would act consistently with our democratic ideals. Now the question is if (the facade of) democracy will give way to overt fascism.

[Sapphocrat]

18. Bingo, OAITW

I was a mere child during the Vietnam era, but remember it vividly just as you call it: It felt less LW v. RW, and much more generational.

As for the fight to the death, my gut says that we are looking ahead to the same street riots we witnessed in the 60s. The difference is that today's America is incredibly sluggish and slow to action -- but, barring all-out "convention riots" this summer, there is no doubt in my mind that another stolen election will result in rivers of blood in the streets.

Reflecting back on Chicago... and Detroit... and Watts... the best tactic I can come up with is to hunker down in the basement -- and pray.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Definitely read

John Dean's Worst than Watergate

Right now they are trying to make this point, but I fear the division is not among Democrats and Republicans, but Bushistas and anti bushistas. We are in the midst of this, to a point we will need some historical distance to evaluate this.

Full disclosure, my knowledge of the era is historical, and I fear the nation is far more divided today. It reminds me of 1858, and none of us was alive in 1858. We may be seeing the end of the Republic, or the prelims for a very hot civil war... remember the civil war had about ten years of increasing polarization.

On the plus side, this aslo reminds me of 1800 and Adamns, and the Whigs... and the landslide that removed the man who wanted to be king.

[Poiuyt]

9. So far, I'd say the 60's were more divided

There were violent protests in the 60's, from the Kent State shootings, to the Democratic Convention in Chicago, to the bombing of the Math/Science building at the Univ Wisconsin. There was no grey area in the 60's and it was divided by age (Don't trust anyone over 30). There were also the race riots just to keep thinks interesting.

[takebackthewh]

17. That's a good point.

We haven't had any riots yet. Wouldn't that be a scream.

[Mike Niendorff]

11. was way too young during Vietnam to really answer that, but ...

It seems to me that the RWers of today are no more "polarized" than at any other time. They hate the same groups they've always hated, and they exhibit the same vitriol and violent intent that they've always exhibited.

What's changed, imho, is that the rest of of America has finally had enough of these freaks and their insane agenda.

Thus, I wouldn't call it "divisiveness". In reality, it's simply the beginning of a substantial -- and long-overdue -- backlash.

Anyway, if it were up to me, that would be my approach to answering your question. Thankfully, though, I was too young during that time to really offer much more than this :)


MDN

[onecitizen]

12. For myself anyway......

VN was worse. It was our war. It was our friends,family who were going. It was so much personal to me. Not that this situation isn't really. We also had the Civil Rights issue too. To compound everything. This is personal for me too cause I have a son draft-able age. VN I had his Dad go. I couldn't live thru my son going over there.

[blackcat77]

13. Not yet

When there are mass demonstrations on every college campus and in all the big cities on a weekly basis, THEN it will be as diviced as it was then.

Seems like the anti-war side lacks the passion to really get in a fight over this.

[bemildred]

24. Yes, not yet. nt

[sandnsea]

14. It is just different

Vietnam was primarily the youth against the establishment. This time it's neighbor against neighbor, and really heated and angry. The level of anger wasn't there between day to day Americans during Vietnam. I just remember some supporting going on with the war and others not, but everybody was tired of it and confused by it. At least among the adults I heard talk about it. The anger was between adults and those hippie kids.

And there isn't anything good going on right now. No booming economy, no landing on the moon, no new civil rights laws, nothing good at all.

It's just so different and I think much more dangerous.

[Hamlette]

15. wait until the conventions this summer

if they are anything like Chicago, it will be like VN. As someone else said, VN went on forever. The protesting really got started in 1967 and we didn't get out until 1974. Remember too that the support for VN in 1968 was about the same as the support for Iraq now. Half and half. Still it took six years.

I was in college 1968 to 1976. Everyday you'd go to school and find like minded people ready to take to the streets...and we did. The college age kids were instrumental and they were involved because of the draft. I don't think campuses will erupt until/unless there is a draft, and I'm sure the beltway knows it.

Much is the same: we were called unpatriotic and unamerican, we were accused of hurting the war effort but it was all new then and better covered by the media. Kent State was a turning point. The pictures. I wonder if the prison abuse scandal will be like that for this war. I think it shamed us in the same way.

[KuroKensaki]

21. Prisoners aren't Americans.

Sad as it is to say, the people tortured in Abu Ghraib are not Americans. They may represent 'the enemy' being tortured by us--just as the Kent State protestors were representing 'the enemy' and being gunned down by us--but the Kent State kids were Americans. People could watch that and say to themselves 'Yeah, they were war protestors, but they were just confused kids!' It's impossible to get a RWer, or occasionally even a centrist, to think beyond national borders when considering the value of human life.

[dbt]

19. The country is WAY more divided now than it was during Viet Nam.

You don't see it on your thoughtscreens the way we did back in the 60s because the Corporate Media is so overwhelmingly pro-bu$h. There is no Walter Cronkite in 2004 to tell us on the Evening News how the "war is unwinnable," nor is there a network that would allow such heresy to be broadcast.

In 1968, we had the streets; in 2004 we have the Internet. It's SO much easier to riot on the message boards than it was to actually MARCH. Even us Geezers, on the whole, would rather demonstrate from our keyboards.

As to which period of History has been meaner, the period from 1993 to the present takes it, hands down. The drumbeat of HATE started before Clinton took the oath of office and has continued to this day. Worse yet, RELIGION has been injected into the mix.

:hippie:
dbt

[vetwife]

31. Republicans were not holding all three branches in the 60's

I look at it this way. I have been here for both. I think we are more divided now because of the media. Back in the 60's you were either drafted, enlisted , supporting or protesting. It was all a generation thing pretty much. Another poster said no one over 30 was trusted. That was true. The establishment......The older generation and the younger generation were at more than odds with one another. Kids left home and went to college campuses to protest. Some left home and never went back to their Mom and Pop.
The flower children had no free speech zones, so they could roam and talk and hang out at coffee shops and really protest in Washington without being under surveilance. We did not have the technology.

Then there were the wives and fiances and friends of the soldiers of the VN War who would not protest at all, even if they believed the war was wrong as they could not get caught up in something so contreversial as to maybe make like harder on their loved ones. They worked, took care of babies, wrote to their love ones in Nam and cried a lot. They too did not trust the leaders but they were pretty silent. They were not informed. They were mostly just HS grads and had no access to such a thing as internet and the papers were not telling it all. Neither was the media. No college professors., to inform them, they were just HS grads or drop outs. They had to believe there was some reason their loved ones were in Vietnam. But the tune changed when these soldiers returned all messed up and were not the same people that left. Their lives pretty much fell apart, for the most part of familes of the soldiers returning from Viet Nam.
The only social injustice shown to those kids was the show All in the Family with Meathead and Archie fighting over Vietnam and Nixon.

Today, we have media from the right trying to shove this war down our throats, am imbalance of power, all republican and an economic disaster which is bringing people further apart on issues. I do think we are more divided today than in the 60's other than the racial riots of the 60's. That was a movement and some not many whites joined the Freedom fighters. The blacks were the minority and whites did not take their rightful place to join in the movement, they just simply ignored the issue, for the most part and that was wrong. The truth is...the country is totally polarized right now. Back in the Vietnam era, for the most part, the economy was good. We can't think of anything now that this bunch has not turned to dung ! People were not spied on openly and things were different. I feel those that protested, did so with more passion and now, this bunch has silenced the majority of us with their isolation of everything. I think it is worse now. I really do. ITs like Herbert Hoover's depression (according to my Daddy) and Johnsons Vietnam combined, plus Nixon's secret and criminal activity. We got all three. Plus, we have no Walter Cronkites out there, just sound bytes and op eds.

[doc03]

22. Is conservatism a genetic defect, a disease or is it a choice?

[Eye and Monkey]

30. All of the above. It's also a ruse.

And a ruse by any other name would smell as shitty.

[diamond14]

23. today, nobody cares....there's no spirit for change or interest in

making America better....


during Vietnam, our Nation's college students used their BRAINS and got out on the streets and protested, AND disrupted the sytems....today, there are very few young people protesting, or disrupting the system....nobody cares....there is no longer a sense of community...it's all just 'me' and when/how 'me' will evade the draft...nothing at all about 'community' and a better America...

during Vietnam, the draft did NOT affect college students, who were deferred from the draft...but college students felt an obligation to STAND UP and take it to the streets...no phones in dorm rooms, no faxes, no email, no internet....yet, people STOOD UP....burned ROTC buildings to the ground, threw smoke-bombs into graduation ceremonies, disrupted classes, poured blood on draft records, stood up to US SOLDIERS who shot them, broke into government offices, protested WITHOUT PERMITS....in those days, students KNEW that change was up to them....and we built the world we wanted...Vietnam, civil rights and rights for all, environmental clean-ups, motor-voter, broadcasting congressional hearings, adopt-a-highway, clean-up our parks, public housing changes, OSHA, and much much more...and that revolution WAS NOT TELEVISED....

today, there is an apathy that is allowing facism to take over, even encouraging it....so many young people care only about their clothes, their hair, and their entertainment....they fret about 'permits' for protests, and whether anyone will show them on TV....with the most high tech communications, and knowledge of advertising, TV, and 'message', today's youth send the message: "there is no message, just apathy"....and bush* knows it, and encourages it....

without any passion, there will be NO CHANGE....today's youth are going like sheep to their own slaughter....complicit in their silence...

[Jacobin]

25. The Draft made it different

They could force you to go get blown up in the jungle for no good reason.

Demonstrations were often violent, fires lit, college students shot and killed in demonstrations.

It was probably more intense.

The majority are "getting it" quicker this time, I think because some still remember Vietnam and what a useless clusterfuck it was.

[diamond14]

26. college students were NOT drafted....most deferments were for

college....Kerry went because he VOLUNTEERED...but most college students did NOT go to Vietnam...and it was the college students who took the initiative to stop the war....today's college students can barely mount 4 or 5 students to 'turn their backs' during facist commencement addresses...yesterday's college students STOPPED the entire U of Michigan commencement in 1971 by smoke-bombing the auditorium...


look at the stats...for the most part, our soldiers in Vietnam were the "uneducated"....even mcNamara's 100,000 were drafted and killed (recruited for their low IQ's, could not read/write)...but NOT college students....


College students protested the Vietnam war because of a BIGGER community sense...that with education comes RESPONSIBILITY...that we are responsible for others, and that led to the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency, Occupational Safety and Health Admistration, and much much more....

it is that community sense missing for today's youth...they think and write on this board ONLY about themselves, nothing about changing big community issues...most do not even protest or write to their congress reps, or even vote....just whine and encourage others to join their sluggishness...

[KansDem]

27. The Cold War did much to mask polarized feelings...

Yes, there was a polarization during the Vietnam War, but for the most part, not nearly as bad as today with the Iraq War. This was due to the "enemy of communism." As the saying went "Politics stops at the water's edge" which I took to mean that whatever differences you had with your next-door neighbor, co-worker, or family member, you would put those feelings aside and band together to stop the real menace from overseas. Now, however, there is no menace. There is no real enemy other than your next-door neighbor, co-worker, or family member, with whom you might have grave differences. NeoCon fascist vs. "lefty librul" will become the new civil cold war.

Mikhail Grobachev was a genius... He knew the USSR could not out-spend the US in "winning" the cold war. So he disbanded the USSR, which we heralded as a great victory, and left Americans to feed on one another. Could it had been because he knew the the US, left without an antagonist, would turn on itself? Suddenly, the differences between you and your next-door neighbor, co-worker, or family member take center stage.

I'm sure he's looking at the current state of affairs both within the US and in Iraq with the interest and amusement that come from an "I knew it!" wisdom.

[troublemaker]

29. Important point

Our current civil war is a luxury that arose after the cold war ended.

Newt Gingrich is a VERY important person in American history.

[troublemaker]

28. Much more divided today

There has never been a national rift like this since the Civil War--okay, since reconstruction, but you know what I'm saying. The fact it doesn't express itself in dramatic fashion is a function of unrelated aspects our current culture (none of which can be described without the term 'candy-ass')

Throughout Vietnam it was generally accepted by the public that all 100 people in the Senate were Americans. Weak, stupid, short-sighted perhaps, but Americans. Today... well, I don't consider Inhofe and American and many on the Right don't consider Ted Kennedy an American.

And religion is 90% of it all.

[diamond14]

32. as long as nobody STANDS UP, then the divide doesn't matter

most young people spend their time at shopping malls and entertaining themselves...

as long as that continues, it really doesn't matter how divided our country is...as long as the country is totally placated and quietly watching their TVs.....

little will change without ACTIVE people who will STAND UP and change things...the young are going like sheep to their own slaughter....most will not even vote, haven't written their congress reps lately, do not protest, and will not work for Kerry...

[Old and In the Way]

33. TV has had an anesthetizing effect on the population, no doubt.

The cumulative effect of 45 years of TV programming (and the video game varient) seems to have had the effect of isolating people in their own little words. We certainly don't have a media that is oriented towards the public's interests and that subtle pro-corporate bias has had an effect on many people who may not realize this bias is in play on their thinking about current events.

There is less intercommunication between people who think differently, too. I know I've parted company with both friends and acquaintences who support this administration. This has contributed to the polarization of this society, too. The "common ground" seems to be eroding every day...

[shimmergal]

34. Vietnam divide was not entirely a generational thing.

Sure, the college students "manned" the barricades, and much of the visible resistence was centered at college campuses. But the "Don't trust anyone over 30" really referred more to the hippie movement and related lifestyles. And there were plenty of then-under 30's who hated both movements. Re statements by Dan Quayle as well as the Shrub.

Remember too, the rising tide of the civil rights movement during the 60s. It was supported by many older people of goodwill, and when ML King declared the war in Vietnam was part of the same struggle (at least to the extent that we should bring GENUINE Christian ethics to the issue,) that swung many more people around.

One problem with getting much traction on our current problems is that you just can't _tell_ by any outward sign where a person stands on the red/blue continuum. Civil War related conflicts were largely geographically based. 60s-70s used dress and demeanor as code to show where one stood, with blue jeans (if not way-out attire) for the anti-war, and preppy dress and faux-manners for the pro-establishmenters. This was, however, largely a function of age--by and large older people did not change their personal dress or behavior codes according to which side they were on.

Now, short of bumper stickers etc. there are fewer signals by which to identify a person's political "place." You just can't tell. I was delighted to read marketing advice recently that cautioned: "Not everyone who drives a Cadillac is a Republican." So true; my daughter who's even more anti-Bush than me, if that's possible, recently bought a Caddy. Her XM car radio is the only place we can listen to Air America, LOL!

I think this lack of signals has slowed down the implosion of Bush support. Not many of us want to risk being called unpatriotic or immoral by speaking out first in social settings. We wait for somebody else to drop a hint. But the hints are multiplying wherever I go!