I do NOT support the troops

[mopaul]

i have 3 grown children. i have a son, the same age as some of the soldiers in iraq. even if my own son had done some of the things seen in these photos, i would be utterly disgraced. ashamed. deeply disturbed and shattered for life.

i know some of us have sons there. all of these people volunteered.
i know they all mean well, and i know they are not all sadists. but the very fact that they are where a maniac sent them, with orders to go nazi on the locals, in the name of jesus and freedom, makes them complicit in the crimes. how can you possibly seperate in your head the two concepts? i support the troops, but not what they are doing?

the troops are the actual teeth of the insane imperialist policy of bushco. none of this shit would be going on at all without the soldiers pulling the triggers, storming the houses, torturing the prisoners, blasting the wedding parties and firing the missiles.

nothing justifies what they are doing. not even the fact that they mean well. the nazis meant well too.

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. i agree and have been saying this for months

I am only 26, but i have a feeling that with Vietnam,
things began to change only after people stopped supporting the troops

troops were looked down on in the US - not as heros.

maybe if more people do not support the troops, we can get the hell out of there and end this illegal criminal war

[northzax]

2. so what do you support?

revolution?
a military coup d'etat?

[mopaul]

3. yes............so?

[northzax]

8. ok, just wanted to know if I should take you seriously

please be aware that calling for the military overthrow of the US government is anathema to the Constitution, and personlly offensive to many people, including me.

nothing good has ever come from a coup d'etat, and rarely has violent revolution paid dividends in the middle to long term (or even the short term) one exception that the american revolution, do we really want to tempt fate twice?

[freetobegay]

23. Ain't that the truth!

Look what happened when it was done in 2000!

[alittlelark]

75. You said it!!!

;)

[Minstrel Boy]

36. "one exception...the american revolution"

American exceptionalism. Ya gotta love it. Because wherever you go in the world, ya can't leave it.

[northzax]

51. can you name another violent revolution

in the past 500 years that led to a stable government that lasted longer than 20 years?

oh, right. the PRC, that one seems to be working out.

[Minstrel Boy]

54. Mostly, I take exception to your considering the American Revolution

a roaring success.

I hate to be so Canadian about it, but my country had the same imperial master, and we enjoy more freedom and equality than yours, and didn't need a bloody revolution to get there. Same could be said for Australia, New Zealand and more.

If your measure of success for a violent revolution is 20 years of stable government, then, huzzah. Break out the bubbly, John Adams.

[hughee99]

59. A success for Canada, too.

Canadian freedom is partly the result of the American Revolution. England changed it's policies toward it's colonies only after it lost one of them, and I don't believe that this shift would have occured with that happening. Therefore, Canada is also a beneficiary of our violent revolution.

[northzax]

80. hey, I was arguing against violent revolution

by pointing out that few create the ideals they claimed. non-violent revolutions (Canada, India, to name a few) have a much higher success rate.

[Generic Other]

98. What about Latin America?

Didn't some of them successfully revolt against colonial rule?

[libhill]

108. But you have to realize -

that King George and Parliament actually had the audacity to try to levy taxes upon us, to get some sort of payback for the expence of defending us from the French and Spanish for one hundred odd years. And, they were awfully inconsiderate of our desire to grab land from the Indians.

[mistertrickster]

112. I agree . . . how anybody can read the declaration of independence and

not see that it's about a bunch of capitalists looking for the main chance, I don't know.

Even "taxation without representation" was a pretext. How could the colonies be "represented" in Parliment separated by the Atlantic in the 1770's? Cell phones? The internet?

It was an excuse to do what they wanted to do--break away and keep the loot for themselves. It wasn't a bad thing, but it was rather unnecessary, and of course, people died for it, heigh ho.

[Trailrider1951]

58. Sorry, northzax, but here it is in black and white...

Straight from the Declaration of Independence, and I quote:

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

Can't argue with that.

[northzax]

81. nope

but the Declaration is not a legal document, it was a broadsheet attack to inspire a nation to revolt, not a basis for government.

[camero]

102. Not a legal document?

Who are you kidding? Without the declaration, there would have been no independence as the rest of the world would have considered the revolutionary forces as a rebel force and not a legitemate army.

That's really bad logic.

[dpibel]

121. Did you do this on purpose?

Your Question: "So what do you support? Revolution?"

Mo Paul's Response: "Yes...so?"

Your Next and Following Posts: "rarely has violent revolution paid dividends..."

Now, for all I know, Mo Paul does, indeed, support violent revolution. ('Course, T. Jefferson thought revolution of some sort should be a fairly regular event.)

But you didn't ask him, and he didn't say.

How about a nonviolent revolution? How do those tend to come out?

[radwriter0555]

26. The other logical options; withdrawal from Iraq. We have no business

being there.

But let's make HALLIBURTON responsible for rebuilding all the damage they made OUR military create, with THEIR money.

Not ours.

[northzax]

52. right, Halliburton created the who thing

sure. no, the American Electorate created the whole thing by electing this wanker.

and the question at hand was not how to deal with the problem in Iraq but whether the poster wanted the Troops to follow a constitutionally legal order to invade Iraq, or execute a military coup. The question of whether to use the military or not has always been a civilian one, to have the military decide differently is to have a revolution. do you really want that?

[Pastiche423]

62. "...the American Electorate created the whole thing

by electing this wanker."

Huh?

The American electorate did not elect the "wanker".

Where the hell have you been since November 2000?

[northzax]

82. actually, yes

it was an arcane technicality, but yes, we did.

[Pastiche423]

95. Actually, no

The SCOTUS appointed him.

We, the People did not.

[radwriter0555]

99. we didn't ELECT this wanker. He was selected just like HITLER. He did NOT

win the majority of the votes; Florida and Tennessee had massive amounts of voter fraud, etc.

I want my taxpayer funded troops to grow some balls and REVOLT and oppose their use as MERCENARIES by HALLIBURTON.

I want, indeed, a revolution.

[libhill]

106. No, but

FREE AND OPEN AND UN-RIGGED ELECTIONS WOULD BE FUCKING NICE - wishfull thinking, I know - I`m still waiting for the other 9 11 shoe to fall.

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

4. The troops support the regime

They don't represent me.

[roguevalley]

101. How do you know they do? I am just amazed by this assumption. You

seem to think that the most diverse (yes, diverse) group of people in America give up their brains and become repugs the moment they enlist. Not so. Stereotyping sucks. Take out troops and put in something else and people would howl.

I feel for the troops most of all because they are paying the price of all our failure, our failure to stop the war from happening, for doing anything about the 2000 election and all of it. They are the blood price we are paying for our own pussyhood.

We should have taken to the streets in mass, kicked in doors and slept on the steps of the capital. We didn't. Not only is Iraq paying for our failure, so are our kids. They are US! They are you and me and I don't blame them. Do you hear me? I don't blame them because the buck stops with you and me and ALL OF US. All of us first.

[Mountainman]

5. Tell me again why this war is not like Vietnam

Well you have gone where the people who spit on the returning Vietnam vets were. Blame the troops for everything that's going wrong.

Now I bet you are anti war and you don't support the troops. Some here say that that didn't happen during Vietnam. Well you show how it could happen.

[mopaul]

6. did i blame the troops.....?................no

but it ain't bush pulling the triggers. it ain't you and me, but it's our tax dollars supporting it, and all say 'in god we trust'

[Mountainman]

14. It was me 36 years ago. I was drafted and sent to a war

What would you have me do? Surrrender to the next person who wanted to kill me? Die? Desert? Refuse to follow orders? Ruin the rest of my life because I was at the wrong place at the wrong time?

[mistertrickster]

113. That's exactly right, MMan . . . it's so damn easy to pass judgement

on the other guy when one has the luxury of not having to face the consequences.

Most of the people posting about how bad the troops are continue to drive cars that keep us dependent on Middle Eastern oliogarchies, run the air conditioners, refrigerators, furnaces et al. whenever they're the least bit uncomfortable (thus using precious fossile fuels AND creating more global warming) but they are so much better than the poor sap who thought he'd do something for his country by enlisting and is now sucking sand and getting his ass shot off.

Maybe Ann Coulter is right about how SOME on the left seem to hate the working class.

Edited for grammar . . .

[libhill]

109. The people who abuse troops -

are cowardly scumsuckers who don``t have the balls to confront the problem at it`s source,that source being the jackass politicians who got us into this fix. But, easer to abuse a vet, than put your own ass on the line in a protest- might get your head busted by a cop. So lets go spit on a G.I.- that`ll solve everything. Who said that, "those who don`t learn from history, are comdemned to repeat it".

[mot78]

7. What kind of bullshit is that

When you are in the military, and you get called up, and HAVE to go ff and fight as your obligation. I oppose the war, but I support our troops, and just because they have to fight, doesn't mean we should degrade them. Remember Vietnam. Veterans who returned home weren't treated with respect, even though many of them were DRAFTED. BTW, do you want to become the next Starpass and have this post passed around throughout the RW echo chamber?

[mopaul]

10. opinions are like assholes

everybody has one. i may be utterly wrong here, but it's an opinion.

could YOU, mot78, cover a man in shit and force him to convert?

[HuskerDem]

104. That statement belongs in the shitter with your little sigmation there

I'm glad you understand the great probability that you are utterly in the wrong.

I feel sympathy for the vast majority of our troops who just want to get the hell out of there and go home. I believe the higher-ups in that rotten, corrosive, soul eating war have and continue to look for those they can easily corrupt. Those with underlying tendencies of sadism or those too simple and too eager to please. That's how the Nazi's did it and it worked pretty well for quite a while. Abusive husbands always seem to know just how to choose the right wife. The one who will go along with it and keep her mouth shut.

Are you under the impression that the majority of our forces are over there smearing feces on people and killing 12 year olds for fun?

The war is wrong. The occupation is wrong. Thousands of innocent people are DEAD. This is all true, but here's another truth. Most of those troops are just trying to SURVIVE this insanity till they can get the hell home. Many of them are going to come home just a little shattered on the inside. Not so as you would notice it right away but under the surface - in the night - that's when it comes back. They are going to need help.

I support them. I want them home. No more blood for oil.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. As much as I despise a lot of what they are doing

some of those troops mean well and are doing whatever they can to help the locals. It's not all Bu$hie propaganda.

[texastoast]

69. I hear from kids who are in Iraq and Afghanistan

And I believe them when they tell me that many, many Iraqis are glad the Americans are there in spite of what we see here on the "liberal" media.

I also believe it when they tell me that America has no freaking idea how bad things are in Afghanistan and how many of the kids are getting killed. Wonder why at this critical time in the election cycle our "liberal" media isn't reporting THAT?

[goddess40]

100. They don't HAVE to fight

I say they should go to jail before fighting in an unjust war.

[mistertrickster]

114. See, that's what I'm talking about--are YOU rotting in jail to protest

an unjust war? Uh no?

Then why do the soldiers have to?

I'm not saying that they're all little angels, but I think they are about as good as the Americans who don't have to fight.

I'm not going to critize them until I'm willing to make the same sacrifice they would have to make for not fighting.

And, I'll tell ya the truth, I'm not willing to do that right now.

[mistertrickster]

9. Are you willing to stop paying taxes because those taxes are

used to support the immoral war? Aren't YOU and I complicit in aiding and abetting our immoral gov't in torturing and murdering innocent Iraqis?

Hell yes, we are.

So until you're ready to rot in jail like Thoreau, lose your job, your house, all visible means of support, and become a pariah among your family and friends, you have no right to critize the troops who are only doing their job as it is defined by the Constitution and long years of tradition.

If even if the troops are sadistic, blood hungry killers who enjoy the destruction of human life (the vast majority aren't, btw), we still have to support them, because they're just doing what the law and society tell them to do.

Just like we do when we fund the war machine with our taxes.

[mopaul]

12. your right

our dollars do pay for this. all of the catastrophes you've describe above have already happened to me, so i don't care anymore.

[mistertrickster]

19. Well . . . sorry to hear about the setbacks. War is hell for everybody.

I'll grant you it's hard to feel admiration for the soldiers that take a defeated and emotionally crushed people and subject them to wanton abuse and further privation including murder, rape and tourture . . . and then give a f***ing "thumbs up" over it.

"Each man's duty is to the king, but each man's soul's his own."
Shakespeare, Hen V

[radwriter0555]

27. This isn't war. This is an unwarranted, unlawful invasion of a country

that has no defense.

This is hitler invading poland all over again.

[gWbush is Mabus]

13. because we pay taxes, we have an OBLIGATION to speak out against this war

[radwriter0555]

29. ABSOLUTELY.

I couldn't agree more.

[Commendatori]

30. Disagree.

Since when do we have any say as to a.) whether or not we pay taxes to begin with, or b.) where those tax dollars go?

For that matter, if we had a say in any of this, how many people on this board would support a tax system that was so freaking regressive and punitive to the poor?

When they make paying taxes optional, and I pay them anyway, that's when you can blame me for aiding and abetting this war effort, and not a second before.

[mistertrickster]

47. That's exactly my point--the soldiers don't have a choice either.

They signed up to "defend their country," which is certainly honorable (only a total pacifist could be against that) and to earn an honest dollar, and the next thing they know, they're "inserted" into Iraq.

What would you do, throw your gun down and go to jail forever? Or do what you were trained to do and what everybody else in your unit is doing?

I think if it were us over there, we'd be pretty much like the soldiers are. (Granted, I'd draw the line at rape and torture, but when you're trained to take orders, you take them.)

[DrWeird]

53. Sure they do, they all decided to get on that plane.

And many were happy to.

[mistertrickster]

116. They didn't decide to get on the plane anymore than you or I decided

to pay our taxes to fund the war.

Did you read any of what has been said here so far?

[Selwynn]

15. Have you served in the military yourself? And what does "support" mean?

I try to avoid all or nothing statements of absolutes if I dont have a first hand knowledge of what I'm talking about. I have never served in the military. My father served, in the Army, in Vietnam, but even that doesn't give me any real insight.

I do know that its not as simple as saying, well these guys volunteered so I blame them for this war. First of all, most didn't run out and enlist specifically for this war. They enlisted because they believed the propaganda that military service was going to a) provide them opportunities they might not have otherwise and b) allow them to blow stuff up and c) be a nice patriotic thing to do.

Once in, simply refusing to go to war results in prison. Not only that, but you've been trained and brainwashed to do two things: kill and follow orders. That's according to my Dad, who tried to explain to me how the Military specifically trains you "out of" most higher level reasoning, teaching you only how to follow orders and kill people. I think its not completely fair to expect these young boys and girls who are being programmed to believe they are patriots and America is always right to perfectly reason through all of these things. I also think its ridiculous to spent time blaming them when there is far more blame to be placed on the people who orchestrate wars than on the men and woman ordered to carry it out.

When I say I "support the troops" here is ALL that I mean: I simply mean I these son's and daughters to survive and to come home. I don't want our citizens to die, whether they are military or civilian. And even though I believe what our government is doing is wrong, that doesn't mean I don't pray for the safety of our men and woman on the ground. I want them to be safe and to COME HOME. That's how I "support" the troops.

Sel

[thebigidea]

17. or to boil it down, as my Vietnam-era GI dad said:

"Support the troops? They wanna fuckin' go home!"

[mopaul]

20. exactly, suppor them by removing them from the slaughterhouse

thanks for helping me clarify

[mopaul]

18. no, not in the military myself

i did sign up, and i did get drafted, but i was a 1-Y.

[Arianrhod]

123. "the Military specifically trains you out of most higher level reasoning"

The Army's official training program is called "Performance Oriented Training". Essentially, troops are taught the rote mechanics of how to do their jobs, but they are never taught the underlying theory of how the machinery works, why swapping out a specific card has the effect it does. The reason given for this technique is that the Army wants its people to be able to react instantly and correctly under the stress of battle, without having to take the time to think things through. What it results in, unfortunately, is incidents like My Lai and Abu Ghraib.

[radwriter0555]

16. I agree with you, thank you. I've been saying this too.

It really sucks, too.

[DrWeird]

21. Agreed.

I used to say, "support the troops, bring them home" . Now I'm of the opinion just let them stay there and rot.

[mistertrickster]

117. Well, DrWeird, I don't know how old you are, but when you've seen

as many burnt out husks of alcoholic, drug addled, depressed war vets who have to live the rest of their lives thinking every minute about the horror of what they went through--not to mention the physically maimed and blinded--as I have. Old vets who would have had a good decent life if their country hadn't sent them to hell for a few years to kill people and break things, then you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

Why are you so much different than the guys over there carrying a gun?

Because you had the wealth (probably) to not to have to enlist.

[hexola]

22. When the troops come home...will it be worse that Viet Nam?

Will soldiers be called "torturers" and "rapists" and be generally looked at like a bunch of kooks? (its my understanding the VietNam vets were not exactly welcomed home as heros...but I'm a few years too young to remember...)

[mopaul]

24. it wouldn't surprise me

i knew a lot of the returning vietnam vets, and they were called babykillers and such. some were actually spit on.

they were drafted though. they didnt' deserve it.

[ikojo]

93. Here is what Vietnam Veterans Against the War says about

the myth of the spat upon soldier....

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

Stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans are bogus. Born out of accusations made by the Nixon administration, they were enlivened in popular culture (recall Rambo saying he was spat on by those maggots at the airport) and enhanced in the imaginations of Vietnam-generation men — some veterans, some not. The stories besmirch the reputation of the anti-war movement and help construct an alibi for why we lost the war: had it not been for the betrayal by liberals in Washington and radicals in the street, we could have defeated the Vietnamese. The stories also erase from public memory the image, discomforting to some Americans, of Vietnam veterans who helped end the carnage they had been part of.

The "support the troops" symbolism also comes with a hidden agenda, a subtext that is about the anti-war movement. Understandably, the war brings a lot of emotion to the surface and some of that feeling stems from frustration with the economy, a sense of helplessness in the face of large-scale social and technological change, and fear that cherished American values are being lost. For some people, the real war is the war at home and the enemy coalition comes bundled for them in the anti-war movement. The redirection of their legitimate anger about the deteriorating quality of life in America onto peace activists is shortsighted scapegoating that won't solve problems.

The truth is that nobody spat on Vietnam veterans and nobody is spitting on the soldiers today. Attempts to silence opponents of the war with those figments of hostility are dishonest and should, themselves, be banished from our discourse.

[symbolman]

96. This is BULLSHIT

I was SPAT ON and called a BABYKILLER, personally..

as usual, lots of words there but no truth at all..

I'm starting to wonder if I support the troops myself..

I wish they would all lay down their weapons and walk as a force to the nearest airport and demand to LEAVE.

What if they ALL did it, like Gandi...?

[freetobegay]

25. I do not support anyone who does not support our troops!

That is so disingenuous! If you don't like America you are always welcomed to leave it! But don't blame the troops for the Government. There is a difference! Fight our Government not the troops!

[mopaul]

28. again, i did not blame the troops

you too are welcome to leave. i'm staying

[Delano]

31. "Supporting the Troops" is NOT a requirement of citizenship.

While I disagree with the poster's premise, there is nothing that says you have to "support the troops" to be an American, or even a good, patriotic American. There are a significant number of people who are absolute pciffists on principle, and don't condone state-sanctioned killing in any form. They are entitled to express their opinion, and there is no reason they should leave.

For a person who wants to be "free to be gay", your tolerance of differing viewpoints is pretty damn narrow.

[freetobegay]

37. I don't want to see another Vietnam!

Some here seem to be drooling for it!

[DrWeird]

38. Not wanting another Vietnam is exactly why...

we don't support the troops.

[mopaul]

42. yes, i'm drooling for another vietnam.........please.........

i got a bad attitude dude, don't accuse me of wanting to see us fail.
are you enlisting soon?

[Delano]

85. If there is another Vietnam, the responsibility lies ONLY with Bush.

Even during Vietnam, the "spitting-on soldiers" anecdotes were almost all urban legend that surfaced in the 80s.

If you look back, rather than spitting on soldiers, a lot of protesters in the 60s tries to win the troops over, get them to put down their arms and give up the war.

At any rate, Vietnam or Iraq, the fault lies with "leaders" who drag the poorest of our citizens into unnecessary conflicts SOLELY for the gain of corporrate entities.

If you think anti-war folks are to blame for the disaster that is Iraq, maybe you should start shopping for a forum that better reflects your views. You'll only be frustrated here.

I disagree what the poster said, as I disagree with Rall's obnoxious comic on Tillman, but I'll be damned if I'll stand by and have fellow Americans told to "leave the country" just for exercising their right to free expression.

[ShaneGR]

32. Sighs

Same old burn the flag and spit on the soldiers crap that marginalized the anti-war movement and kept our boys in Vietnam for so damn long. You want to understand what the hell is going on? get in your friggin car and drive around the country for a few weeks. Not everyone thinks, acts, or talks like you. Not everyone is as educated as you. Not everyone understands what is going on as well as you. Perhaps if you dedicated yourself to informing, rather than insulting, you'd serve a bigger purpose.

[mopaul]

i don't want a purpose

i don't see how criticising the war kept soliers in vietnam longer.
in fact, it had the opposite effect.

i ain't gonna burn no flag, but soon someone surely will.
who can afford the gas to drive around the country?

if it insults you that i don't support war, too bad.

[libhill]

111. I can barely afford

the gasoline it requires to get back and forth to work- I can`t help but wonder why oil prices are going so sky high- Bush taking care of big oil? Opec is a good scapegoat, just as in the 70`s.

[prolesunited]

41. You know I've heard this one before

that the anti-war movement kept our boys in Vietnam longer. Can you explain your line of reasoning in making this statement?

[Minstrel Boy]

45. "marginalized the anti-war movement and kept our boys in Vietnam"??

God, for an American anti-war movement as "marginalized" as that of the 1960s!

Where the fuck is it now? Awaiting the second anniversary of the war, to gather for a few hours and think they've accomplished something?

[Frederic Bastiat]

86. Let the Lemmings pass n/t

[Spoon]

33. Even if 100 troops were involved in torture & rape,

that's still only .5% of the troops that have served over there. Blanket condemnations are for conservatives...

http://www.greencis.net/~dianeleigh/aw_shit!.jpg

[DrWeird]

35. There's at least 1800 photos.

And it can be assumed that there were far more acts of torture that was never filmed. On top of that, everybody that knew about it and did nothing is also guilty.

[Spoon]

46. The media, Congress, and a lot of us are complicit then,

because it was reported on in January (I remember), but wasn't a big deal because there were no juicy pictures.

[stanwyck]

34. this is very awkward for me

as my son is a Marine headed for Iraq in June. Obviously, I love and support my son. (a proud liberal). I do not support our invasion and occupation of Iraq and I abhor the despicable treatment of the Iraqi detainees. I worry about the reception my son will receive when he returns home. He's been overseas for a year. This is a different dynamic than Viet Nam. My son chose to enlist in the Marines. (before we invaded Iraq). So, the feelings of others (both gung-ho warmongering and disdain for our troops) are both unsettling for me as a liberal and a loving mother.

[mopaul]

40. I sympathise with you

honestly. my oldest son wanted to join the army during the first bushwar, the gulf war. i told him i'd be proud of him, and then i told him why sr. bush was having the war, and he renigged.

now, my 20 year old son is facing the draft which is surely coming.

i do not hate your son, and if my son was there, i would not hate him either.

but if i saw my son in one of those awful photos, i'd disown him.

[Wind Dancer]

49. I feel for you,

it must be heartbreaking as a mother to be in this situation. There are good soldiers, hopefully your son can have a positive affect in this senseless war.

[Malva Zebrina]

39. I"support the troops" is a false dilemma and is a

guilt laden phrase put out by war mongers to cause people to feel guilt if they do NOT "support the troops" Therefore, many people are adopting this illogical mantra, because they do not want to hurt the feelings of their friends who have loved ones in the military. It is not doing harm to anyone to use proper logic and reject this twisting of the language. Those who have loved ones in Iraq, wearing the uniform, do NOT support all the troops either.

It makes no sense logically at all

It is not the words that count for anything I don't think people should be villified for saying they do not support the troops. It is perfectly possible to support one troop, or ten or any number on the scale, and perfectly possible at the same time to NOT support the troops--one ten, one hundred etc. Further, to refuse to say you support the troops, does not mean you are not compassionate with their plight, or compassionate as far as their loved ones at home go.

One cannot be against the war, and support the troops simultaneously. There would be no war, if there were no troops. Troops=the war and it's mission. "Troops" is the broadest of brushes.

That is not to say we cannot feel compassion for some of those there.

[Mountainman]

65. Here is a song from the Vietnam era that fits in well here

It is easy to agree with the theme of these lyrics. You don't have to put anything on the line or risk anything like the soldier does.

But the last part of the song says the orders come from you and me. So if you agree with the idea that the soldier is to blame for war, than do you accept the blame for sending him/her there?




Universal Soldier
by Donovan


He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

[Malva Zebrina]

87. that is nice but a little too Hallmarkish for my taste

Try a little Yeats. I refuse to romaniticize the soldiers or, in this case, the very broad brushed "troops" There is no logic in "support the troops" and if you would think about it you would see the false dilemma and stop trying to lecture to those who do see the falsity in that.

There is NOTHING romantic about this mission or the troops who are actually,the mission and the war. Whatever their motivation, I supported their enlistment with my taxes and that was fine with me. I am willing to do that. Let taxes pay for their college education if it takes one out of West Virginia trailer parks or poverty and sends them to college where they can get an education and have a productive life due to that education.

However, it is understood, this benefit comes with a little bit of a hitch or responsibility. If a mad president decides to make war on his whimsical notions and greed, they will be expected to go. and follow his crazy orders.
They are NOT defending our freedoms by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry, but that is not the case. For any of them. There may be some who cannot wait to leave, and some who are disgusted at their roles,and there are some who are delighted that they get to kill Arabs, and other dirty non-believers.

Ergo, "support the troops" is a fallacy.

That observation is not being cruel--that is being realistic.

They wanted to be in the military. That is the plain truth.


"You don't have to put anything on the line or risk anything like the soldier does. "

I chose not to join the military. Many like me also made that choice. That does not make us un American, does it? Is that what you are saying? That we MUST "support the troops" in order to be good Americans and believe the romantic poetry? Does that make us less than the brave Americans we see in Iraq now?

LOL, that is as bad as calling liberals, Un American.

[Randers]

43. I support the troops that refuse to carry out orders...

I support the troops that refuse to carry out orders to abuse, torture and kill innocent people.

I consider most of the people in Iraq innocent.

I consider our government leaders and the military to be the guilty ones.

I believe it is better to quit than to carry out war crimes.

[Qutzupalotl]

44. I support most of the troops.

Like the ones who don't engage in torture. Like the one especially who spoke up when he saw what was going on in Abu Ghraib: war crimes. There was a culture of permissiveness prevalent that goes all the way to the top...to the lawless way we went in (we defied the U.N. to enforce their resolutions; we lied to them and the world about why). To lurking Freepers: that's a "feel-good" culture of misguided revenge that Bush is directly responsible for.

Poor oversight and too much pushing the envelope in the gray areas of interrogation led to the extremes we saw. I have to wonder how much more went on that wasn't photographed. Rumsfeld's acceptance of "responsibility" is a joke. Does that mean he'll be jailed for torture?

I want to give the majority of the soldiers a pass. The vast majority had nothing to do with the abuse scandal, as far as I can tell. However, many of them have been brainwashed to believe Iraq did 9/11. In their controlled environment, are they to blame for being misinformed? I don't think so. I do blame the leadership that promoted lies for their own ends. But again we're talking about a relatively small number. I appreciate the sacrifices of the many in this effort, badly misguided as it is. It's good to know that there are many who will volunteer to defend our country against all enemies, real or imagined. I just wish we had saved them for a real emergency.

[mopaul]

48. of course there are compassionate soldiers, & i support them

they are hidden so well under the filth done by the bad ones.

[Karenina]

50. Support the troops.

Get 'em da Bosch Hell outta dey sofort, Heute, au'jourdhui (sp? sorry. y'all know what I mean), NOW works for me...

LOAD 'EM UP, MOVE 'EM OUT
Rollin' rollin' rollin'....

[DaveSZ]

55. .

I don't support those who gunned down the children at that wedding party, and I don't support those who abused the prisoners.

However, there are many there I believe who are actually trying to help the people over there.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

56. And like teeth they must do what the mouth tells them to

it's not very fair to blame them for anything.

[m-jean03]

57. I support our misled and misused troops. These guys deserve support

and not spit and slander. They are enduring so much more than I ever could. Many of them were simply naive or in need of a college tuition when they joined. And many of them do not commit atrocities.

And also - I support the returning troops, who will have to deal with unfathomable financial, emotional, physical distress and don't need the additional burden of being viewed as Nazis and criminals just because they, perhaps naively, once wanted to wear the uniform of the United States military.

[Pastiche423]

68. Over and over again

I hear that many young people enlist in the military for a college education.

How much tutition does the government pay for those that do enlist? Is there a site that spells this out, as well as how many actually do further their education?

[m-jean03]

70. I don't know the statistics on how many further their education

But I think many people have taken advantage of the GI Bill.

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.goarmy.com/army101/benefits.htm

When you become a Soldier in the U.S. Army, you become eligible for a long list of benefits—whether you enlist full-time (Active Duty) or part-time (Reserve). You not only get leadership skills and training, you can receive much more: from money for school all the way to health care. Listed below are examples of programs available that make sure you and your family are taken care of.

There are many benefits to becoming a Soldier in the U.S. Army, including programs to help with your education now and in the future.

Montgomery GI Bill (MGIB) & Army College Fund (ACF)
Once you enlist, you can take advantage of the Montgomery GI Bill and the Army College Fund as ways to pay for your college education. Combined, you can get up to $50,000. By contributing $100 per month for the first 12 months of service, you'll receive something worth even more-a college education. To see if you qualify for the GI Bill, contact a Recruiter.

What you get (Active Duty only)

•
For a two-year enlistment, you can receive a total benefit of $30,000 for college ($833 per month for 36 academic months)

•
For a three-year enlistment, you can receive a total benefit of $37,000 for college ($1028 per month for 36 academic months)

•
For a four-year enlistment, you can receive a total benefit of more than $42,000 ($1,166 per month for 36 academic months)

•
For a five-year enlistment, you can receive a total benefit of $47,000 ($1,305 per month for 36 academic months)

•
For a six-year enlistment, you can receive a total benefit of $50,000 ($1,389 per month for 36 academic months)

More... http://www.goarmy.com/army101/benefits.htm

[Th1onein]

60. I agree and have also said this for months.

You make your choices in life. Your choices define you--the things that you are willing to sacrifice; the things you are not willing to sacrifice. What means more to you: a college education (financed by the US gov't.) or NOT being a part of the imperialist machine?

Sometimes taking the easy way out does mean selling out.

[m-jean03]

61. Unfortunately, some folks w/out a college education

Wouldn't understand what you were talking about if you mentioned the imperialist machine. . .

[Th1onein]

63. I don't think that this is necessarily true......

I'm not a Christian fundamentalist (I did not like the way the teachers spoke to the students in public schools), but I educated my children at home, during their teenage years, and I had them both tested, at ages 16 and 17, and they were respectively sophomore college level and junior college level. You can educate yourself, if you want to know something. And, I think, to a very large degree, a formal education burns the curiousity out of a person. I've met a lot of scientists who are simply so BORED with their respective professions that there is no hope that they will ever achieve anything groundbreaking in their fields.

[m-jean03]

67. A lot of young people don't have much historical insight though,

Nor a great understanding of global politics. Most kids weren't educated by wise liberal parents like you -- as a survivor of a public high school, I can tell you they aren't teaching kids much about American imperialism and the military-industrial complex.

And the recruiters are allowed on campus, they're allowed to tell lies, encourage fantasies... Kids grow up on beefed up American history and violent video games...

:shrug:I don't know, things are royally fucked up but I don't blame all the naive kids who joined for whatever fantasies or brave loyalties compell people to join the military.

[Th1onein]

71. You know......you're right........they are victims, too, aren't they?

This is so sad. This whole thing is just so damned sad.

I look at those Iraqi children with their arms and legs blown off; their faces covered with blood, and I want to blame our troops. I want to blame anybody, and the closest I can get to a human is the one carrying the gun; or dropping the bombs. It's hard to blame someone's "policies," but that is the one to blame--the author of those policies that says it's okay to bomb civilians; and collateral damage is okay, and we don't have to count their dead.

At first, I looked at the pictures of the dead, and I said, Oh my God, but a little part of me was happy that we were screwing up so bad; even if the cost of that screw-up was dead civilians. Because the more we screwed up, the less likely that Bush would win and then all of this horror would stop.

But the prisoner abuse--there is not even that small triumphant part of me left anymore. I sit and look at those pictures of smiling guards, thumbs up, over the dead body of a tortured Iraqi; I see the fear in their faces; the cowering shape of the Iraqi prisoner who will form the "floor" in the pyramid of the naked prisoners' bodies; the man, legs crossed, arms held out to his sides, smeared with shit.....My God, what have we done? What have we become?

The bell is tolling for us. It is tolling for all of humanity.

[m-jean03]

74. I can understand why people would withdraw all support for the troops

in the wake of recent events, but I can't, because each of those people is just an individual cog in the machine of a fucked up empire. Like you said, many are only victims themselves. Can you imagine how shitty it would feel knowing you were a part of this illegal invasion if you had any conscience, which I am certain many if not most of the folks over there do? This probably sounds silly, but, it was Sylvester Stallone-as- Rambo's heart-wrenching monologue, where he breaks down in tears in the end of "First Blood", that really convinced me I would never hold an innocent veteran responsible for the crimes of his government.

You express your thoughts very eloquently.

[mistertrickster]

119. The criminals in England were sent to Australia where they gave

up crime and built a nation. Why? Because they finally had the opportunity to . . . (thanks to Clarence Darrow for the illustration).

People are all about the same. Some people have more opportunities and those people as a group generally do better. (I know all about the little girl pushed out to sea from Vietnam and now she heads a Fortune 500 company--I'm talking about reality here, not right-wing anecdotes that prove nothing.)

The folks enlisting in the military are just like us, they are about as moral, they are about as brave, they are about as smart.

The one big difference is they aren't as well off.

If you are going to condemn a person because they took the best opportunity they had, then you have no compassion or understanding.

[m-jean03]

64. There are 2 different

definitions of "support"

being used, in the sense of "support our troops".

1) The "Freeper" Definition, which turns so many of us off....

support (v.) To blindly support anything done by our troops and to make up excuses and lies to defend their atrocities when they do occur.
.
.
.AND.
.
,
,
2) The Liberal Definition, which many of us here subscribe to.

support (v.) To have compassion for the troops and veterans in general, to appreciate the sacrifices of those who have served. Not to let our disdain for warfare and our disgust at the recent atrocities color our view of every person in uniform.

All right, does that help now? :-)

[historian]

66. i agree with you wholeheartedly

I posted that same comment several months ago and i felt as if i were talking to rush limbaugh, judging by the responses i got.
If you support the troops you support bush. Its that simple.
Plus (and i know ill be hanged drawn and quartered for this) plus most joined the army hoping for a free ride through college but the time has come due to do what they were trained for - kill or be killed. Im sorry but you make your choice and you live with it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

73. If you support the troops you support the troops.

It's that simple.

[mrgorth]

72. We are ALL complicit in this

Not just the troops. We all did this, the same as german and european guilt for the holocaust. I don't care how much you protested. We're all a part of this.

[indigobusiness]

76. Your point haunts me.

And will haunt this country for a long, long time.

[Pastiche423]

78. No!

We are not all complicit in this.

I did not vote for whistle ass.

I did not vote for the IWR (neither did my Dem Senator and Rep)

I did protest against the invasion every week for six months prior.

Don't give me the "you pay taxes" garbage. Complicity denotes an association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act. I pay taxes because it is against the law not to.

[mrgorth]

79. We're as guilty for this

as we are for whiping out the indians...whether you did it or not, as I feel I am for the holocaust...even though my ancestors left germany before the 3rd Reich. It's called collective guilt and I believe in it. Your mileage may vary.

[indigobusiness]

84. Some of our guilt rests in our NOT taking to the streets...

and stopping this carnage before it started.

[Tight_rope]

77. I support the "troops"!

I support them getting the hell out of Iraq!

[mvd]

83. I support them if..

they really want to serve America in general. Our troops are very brave to volunteer, and I can't forget that. Also, many of them ended up in a situation they never thought they'd be in, and I blame the misadministration for that.

But when our troops sign up mainly to fight in Iraq, it becomes a tricky situation for me.

[electroluxs]

88. So why not go mainstream with this?

Maybe the NYT or other press that is still headlining the abuse scandal could run it as an exclusive. Or at least fax it out to the major editorials.

[mopaul]

89. are you the mysterious CU lurker?

[electroluxs]

90. Nope.

Unless reading their trite for laughs at times counts as lurking.

[Robbien]

91. Well, all ten of your posts make me go hmmmm

You posted you would like us to post pictures of people jumping from the WTC, you posted you want to invest in the Venezuela crises, you posted a straw comment about "we" not wanting Saddam pictures to be released. And so on.

Again, hmmmmm.

[patrick g]

92. here's my .02

not all who join volunteer . . ..

[indepat]

94. How could anyone support what our troops have been given the green

light to do by the highest civilian echelons of our government?

[Deja Q]

97. Hitler did restore Germany's economy and unified the populace. But you...

It's strange how *'s tactics only work half the time... Our economy is worse than ever and we're divided, almost more than ever.

If repukes will support homosexuals but not what they do with each other, then I can support republicans/war supporters and not like what they do to the real world.

But I disagree with you on not supporting the troops. Big time. I bet many of the troops do not want to be there and, unlike our catastrophe of a "leader", didn't want to go AWOL. So, I damn will support SOME of them. It's not a black and white issue.

For those who have wrecked America's reputation, I'd readily spit on THEM. But for the honorable ones, I sure as hell will praise them for trying to make the best out of a truly deplorable situation brought about by a mindless micro-phallic apostate*.

And watch out for those repuke vermin who'll use your words out of context...

[F.Gordon]

103. Neither do I

The concept of "war" is completely dead, IMHO. The prison abuse only amplifies the true disconnect our military has with Iraq. They don't know who the "enemy" is, nor why they are there.

The "troops" have become part of a large bizarre Government Entitlement program, and the real dirty work is being performed through private companies paid for by the Bush* corporate welfare program.

We've gone full circle to the "Fools of Christ" who sought to "clean" the land of impure religion. Bush* was right the first time when he referred to the "Crusades"......

[candy331]

105. Since the commander-in-chief

languishes in his faith and beliefs then the question may well be WW JD? Of course this is a non issue since religion has been at the forefront of nearly all wars and carnage.

[scarface2004]

107. better than that ..... i loathe the military!!

baby killers!!!

[Nlighten1]

110. Nothing justifies it but...

Refusing to obey the orders of your superiors takes an insane amount of courage. It is easy for us to sit here and judge them.

[thedonkeyhead]

118. Nlighten.....

Could you please remove your avater depicting a scene from "The Last Samurai." That movie glorifies war and warriors which I feel is inappropriate during this time of senseless war.

[ibegurpard]

122. Freep, could you please remove yourself from this forum?

You glorify ignorance and stupidity and I find that most offensive.

[Nlighten1]

124. Actually no...

this movie does NOT glorify war. Watch it again. This movie shows the barbarity and lies BEHIND all wars. It shows how mercenaries are called in to tame "the savages", how arms providers employ them to sell their wares, and to start more wars.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mistertrickster]

120. Nice try, but those of us who actually know something about socialism

aren't buying your act, honey.

Joseph Stalin . . . oh that's rich . . . you've been reading Ann Coulter again, haven't you? She's not good for people without much education--a little learning is a dangerous thing (Alexander Pope).

Go play someplace else.