What's up with Bill Cosby?

[Sandpiper]

Bill's with the NAACP commemorating the Brown v. Board of Education decision and starts throwing out the stereotypes that you'd expect at a George W. Bush fundraiser.

<snip>

Cosby said, according to Leiby: "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids – $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.'

<snip>

He added: "They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English. I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. ... You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"

<snip>

The Post said Cosby also targeted imprisoned blacks.

"These are not political criminals," he said. "These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

<snip>

Warning: Wingnut source

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38565

[jpgray]

1. Cosby is kind of insanse sometimes

I remember he bashed Eddie Murphy for cursing in his stand-up act. That sort of thing is just in poor taste, especially when you are shilling Jell-o and the new Coke.

[Twillig]

20. it may be apocryphal, but

"Tell Bill to have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up."--Richard Pryor.

I can't remember when Bill Cosby went off the artistic roll call forever it's been so long.

[AmericanErrorist]

24. Maybe it's irony, maybe it's not, but the funny thing is that...

Eddie Murphy is now as Gentrified as Cosby and 5x less funnier (except for Donkey from the Shrek films, perhaps)

[bearfartinthewoods]

52. insane? you don't see any relevance in his point?

i'm talking about the language stuff. you don't think the ability to speak english effectively is a value in the job market?

[noiretextatique]

53. how do you know who can't speak english effectively?

using slang is not an indication that one CAN'T speak standard english.

[bearfartinthewoods]

72. because I've interviewed people for employment

if a person doesn't speak effective english during a job intervies, he or she either can't or is too stupid to know they should.

either way, I didn't hire them.

[noiretextatique]

105. they are too stupid...but are they ALL black?

in your experience, have any person of any other race used poor english in a job interview?

[Melodybe]

2. It's true there is an article up at salon.com

[minkyboodle]

3. maybe he should take Eddie Murphy's advice in RAW

and "have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up." Sorry I have no real ill will towards the Coz but this little brew ha-ha made me think of that bit with Eddie Murphy calling Richard Pryor after Cosby scolded him for his act....

[Momof1]

4. Look what he has done

Now he is old and frustrated, and he lost Enis to crime. Let him bitch. He has the right. He tried to make it better.

Yes I'm listening to the Beatles.

[mountainvue]

5. The poor man

never was right again after his son was murdered.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

6. He is preaching

Nothing wrong with that. White people do it all of the time, too.

[bedtimeforbonzo]

7. he's angling for a new job

as National Security Advisor

[Stephanie]

8. I guess everyone's forgotten that he's a stand-up comic

Do you have a more legitimate source for this story?

[Blasphemer]

9. Nothing new for the Coz

I once read a really good article about the "self-determinist" message of the Cosby Show. He doesn't have much tolerance for behaviors that he considers self imposed victimization. Not that I agree with him but that's where he's coming from.

[maggrwaggr]

10. he's old and curmudgeonly.

and he's allowed.

Chris Rock does a lot of the same type of scolding thing.

[TexasMexican]

13. Young Black Men...

If you go to a movie theater
and someone steps on your foot
LET IT SLIDE
Why spend the next 20 years in jail
Cuz someone smudged your PUMA

[JHB]

41. "Here ya go, Shaq...

...buy another jumping car. Bling bling!"

-- Chris Rock, underscoring his distinction between "rich" and "wealthy" ("Shaq is rich. The white man who signs his paycheck is wealthy!", and scolding bad choices.

[rooboy]

11. At least it explains his character "Dr Cliff Huxtable". n/t

[Kenneth ken]

12. While the event (and story) focus on African Americans

I would say the criticism holds true for lower economic people black or white. Not all, but a majority. There are a lot of people in this nation with misplaced values. Education IS crucial to success.

Part of the problem extends beyond lower income people, though, also.

Parents working two or more jobs have less time to raise their children; that's the fault of corporations, which are so keen on generating quarterly profits for their executives and share holders that they don't look beyond the next quarter, and so ignore what is happening to the majority of the nation.

Corporate-owned politicians kow-tow to the short-sightedness of corporate interests and fail to see the harm underfunding education does to the nation as a whole.

If we as a nation valued education to the same degree we value athletic prowess, we would have a more edcated, less guliible society, and (among other travesties) a George W Bush could never come close to being selected to lead our nation.

[havocmom]

89. If we as a nation valued education...

"If we as a nation valued education to the same degree we value athletic prowess, we would have a more educated, less gullible society, and (among other travesties) a George W Bush could never come close to being selected to lead our nation.

Well said, Kennethken, well said, indeed!

I too believe the Cos was making a point about the importance of education and communication. It is one thing to use speech affectations for specific style, quite another to just not care enough to learn to use the language correctly. Speaking well is an exercise in self respect and respect for others. Without good communication skills, we cannot do much.

Where I live, the language is mutilated left, right and sideways by white people, many with college degrees. It is not cute or acceptable for them to be so inarticulate that misunderstandings constantly occur. Some of these people teach school. It is a sad commentary on our culture that communication skills are not important. We slide further from our potential as a culture when language is not respected.

[Delano]

14. He's right about ebonics...

And now there is a whole subculture of white kids that speak it as a matter of course.

As for the $500 shoes, I think that comment just shows how completely around the bend out of touch he is with normal people anymore. From his lofty perch it may look that way, but from what I've seen, poor folks of any color by cheap shoes for their kids. They get the best they can afford, but they don't spend $500 or even $100.

Kids wearing shoes like that are either middle class or higher, or they are involved in shady activities (or they are horrible punks putting their folks in debt)

But he's right about ebonics. It debases everyone who uses it, black or white. In spoite of all the progress that's been made in civil rights, more blacks spoke better English 100 years ago than they do today. The culture of putting down the bookworms and elevating the thugs has been extremely destructive to the black community, and is starting to eat away at the white community.

When I hear this idiot "eminem" extolled as some sort of poet, I cringe for our future. The snotnose punk who bitches about his "carck whore" Mom, and encourages his minions to hock loogeys into burgers they serve at their fast food jobs is an ARTIST? Nihilism SUCKS. Period.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. The $500 shoes are a reality

even thought they might or might not be knock-offs. I use to work in a high risk clinic and some of the best dressed kids you'll ever see where the ones whose mothers were on the dole and living in public housing. I don't know where they got the money but since they didn't have to spend much on food and shelter, they were more than willing to spend it dressing to the nines.

[cleofus1]

19. that's funny...

when i was poor and lived in compton...no one wore expensive clothes except for drug dealers. everyone wore cheap shoes and whatever you could buy at target or kmart...everyone. no one had a car...where were all these welfare princes and princesses when i was on the ground? were they hiding from me?

[durutti]

22. Simple:

When people enter jobs like that with already-formed prejudices, they see only those things which confirmed those prejudices, and interpret reality to fit them. The few poor kids they see who are dressed nice become all of them, and the rest fade into the background.

[DrWeird]

44. Exactly.

Does anybody really know so much about shoes that they can tell a $500 dollar pair of tennis shoes (where do you buy those anyway? Rodeo Drive?) from a flashy looking $20 pair at K-mart?

[theboss]

45. I can

But I'm a label whore.

[sangh0]

63. No, you can't

All you can do is identify the name on the label. You can't determine the price paid. I can go to canal St in Chinatown and pick up "Gucci" bags for $10 a pop.

[theboss]

78. I can tell the fakes from the genuine items

Trust me. Don't challenge me on this stuff.

[sangh0]

92. No you can't

You can tell some of the fakes, but not all.

[Selwynn]

58. That is ABSOLUTELY right. - thank you for saying it.

[bedtimeforbonzo]

39. I see plenty of expensive basketball shoes

on the kids I do crisis intervention with. They may live in a shithole, but they have really nice shoes.

[DrWeird]

42. Oh, cut the crap.

Ebonics is just as valid a dialect as the Queen's English. You sound like Rush.

And Eminem is arguably the best lyricist in popular music since Bob Dylan.

[One_Life_To_Give]

97. What med school teaches in Ebonics?

Cosby's comment that Doctors don't speak in Ebonics is still valid. Your (hypothetical) friend who happens to be a Doctor may use Ebonics. But when they enter their office they probably speak Standard English. TOdays youth should not have the impression that otherwise is true!

[Delano]

107. Ebonics is crap just as much as white appalachian hillbilly talk

And eminem is worthless punk with NOTHING uplifting or constructive to say.

[tishaLA]

46. What you call "ebonics"

is a legitimate variation of spoken English and is recognized by linguists everywhere. It even has a real name: AAE or AAVE (African American English or African American Vernacular English) and has rules, distinctive speech patterns, and a HISTORY dating back to at least the middle 18th century, when it was first reported in American literature. Linguists and philologists disagree whether it is a creole language or a simple difference in dialect, but none of that matters really--it gets into rarefied air only linguists can understand. You may not like it, but that doesn't change any of those facts. Or the fact that it has been prevalent, and by all indication dominant, within African American communities--excepting, perhaps, the intelligentsia and the bourgeoisie--throughout slavery and in its aftermath.

In my opinion, criticizing it without knowing its history and its relevance as a social tool within the black community only debases those who criticize it.

[Delano]

108. Blah blah blah. It's crap. It makes those who use it sound illiterate.

It also makes otherwise intelligent blacks almost unemployable in a professional workplace. Why would you want to hold people back by validating a crap dialect.

If I were British, I wouldn't want my kids to speak cockney either.

[noiretextatique]

54. it's is just a dialect...you place the value on it

but language is neutral.

[KamaAina]

119. Point of clarification: Eminem (Marshall Mathers) is white

he did, though, grow up immersed in urban street culture in Detroit, where he was often the only white kid in his class.

Clearly, then, it's not race that's the issue, it's culture. White suburban kids account for a huge percentage of hip-hop CD and concert sales -- of all artists, not just Eminem.

(Sigh) I can remember the earliest days of hip-hop, then called "rap", when it looked like a promising way to bridge the racial gap, with pioneering artists like Run-DMC collaborating with white rockers Aerosmith... I was down with it, and so were a lot of my homies...

[President Jesus]

15. Cosby's campaign donations

for the cash this cat has, not a very impressive list for the past 12 years...

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=CA&last=Cosby&first=William

[AmericanErrorist]

25. Fair enough, but most of it is to Jesse Jackson Jr.

(The congressman from Illinois)

And that's a good thing in my book.

[leftyandproud]

16. The pugs flipped him!

noooooooooooooooooooooo!!

[Don_G]

18. Bill Cosby

Is also black, funny, street-smart, 70-something years-old now and was paid enough to earn a PhD in Edcuation in tuition and lost earnings twenty or thirty years ago.

I just wonder why he couldn't manage to get that damm Shelby Cobra to George Wallace after the first turn of the key and half-an-hour avoiding a tree.

[qanda]

21. There's much truth in what he's saying

I am a black woman and I'm afraid that there are too many excuses being offered for what is happening in the black community. It's sad when my children (ages 6 and 7) are taunted for 'speaking white' because they use correct English.

I'm not sure if Bill offered any solutions to the problems, but pretending that they don't exist isn't getting us anywhere.

[doubles]

26. I agree nt

[TO Kid]

90. I know a bit of what you mean

Not directly, though. My G/F has taken some grief from her family because I'm not black but when she asked her father if he'd prefer that she come home with a "hip hop deadbeat with five babymothers after him for child support" he shut up.

[doni_georgia]

110. I agree. I teach in an inner city school

I witness this every day. Kids in my class who work hard, make good grades, do what they're supposed to do, getting riddiculed by other kids - being called "wannabe" or "oreo." I had a student last year who was a fourth generation project kid (meaning she's the fourth generation in her family living in the projects). Mom and grandma are both crack addicts. She has 8 brothers and sisters (all with different dads). Two of her older siblings are in jail, and three are in the alternative school for kids who have been expelled from the regular middle school or high school. This kid was smart - really smart. She had failed 4th grade twice and 1st grade once - she was 13 in the 5th grade - but she was smart. I couldn't figure it out. I took time to get to know her family. I spent time at her home with them. I built a relationship with the girl and showed her I believed in her. She made the all A honor roll, and some kid in the projects beat the crap out of her for being "uppity." WHY in the hell do these kids think that if you are smart and work hard you're trying to be white? On another post someone metioned Malcom X talking about a slave mentality. I tell you what a slave mentality is - believing that an African American who is smart, works hard, and succeeds is trying to be white. Yeah, that's what the white supremecists believe - that black people are intellectually inferior. Why in the hell would any African American want to do anything that supports these racists beliefs?

The smartest kid in my class this year (hands down - probably the most intelligent kid I have ever met) is a Jamaican girl in my class. I have noticed that she has no black friends, and I asked her about it one day. She said, "Mrs. V., these black kids in this school are weird." I asked her what she meant and she explained how they call her "wannabe." She said in Jamaica that there is none of that. She said the kids work hard and want to succeed. I asked her if there were any white kids in her school in Jamaica - she laughed and said she didn't even know any white people until she moved to Georgia.

[durutti]

23. Easy for him to say.

Sellout.

[progressivebydesign]

51. "SELLOUT"????

It's that very attitude that perpetuates the social problems he talks about. Oh I see.. because he's black he needs to be poor? What is a sellout? He wasn't born with millions of dollars, he earned that through his talent. Should he speak the way they do in music videos? Should he grab his crotch? Success, unless it comes through sports or music videos, continues to be considered a bad thing by many people growing up in the black community.

[durutti]

27. To the extent that he's right...

He's right about the whole culture, not just blacks. Everyone seems to want instant gratification, and poor people of every "race" tend to speak differently than richer people.

[DaveSZ]

28. LOL

Why does criticising ebonics make you a bad person?

I'm still laughing about that one. :P

[bleedingheart]

40. I agree with you...it isn't just african americans who have this issue

there are plenty of white people who can't speak english properly.

My neighbor is proud of her ignorance...it's almost a status symbol...I can't understand her half the time.

[seabeyond]

29. it is called taking responsibility

and good for bill to speak out. i call a lot of white people in my social class on not parenting in their selfishness. now a days a parent gets raves and pats on back for being a good parent instead of it just being expected, a given. oh the raves what a good parent you are, spending time with your kid. three decades ago, no one would be raving spending time with kid, was an expected

so he is saying he wants the black community to own their part in their children

are there a lot of other factors, yes. but gotta start with the parents

[DemVet]

30. Bill is correct....

....about proper English. It disturbs me to hear some of the slang these days.

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

32. he is right about more than that<nt>

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

31. Do any of You have any Credentials to Comment on Cosby?

If you did you would see he speaks the truth. I can agree with him on this. The culture the community embraces is slowly killing us. Some are capable of dealing with it, like myself, but if you actually have lived in the inner city you would realise what he is talking about.

[progressivebydesign]

49. I have some credentials on it, and I agree with you.

I worked in a home for children who were abused and/or neglected in the L.A. area. Most of those kids were African American. I saw, from the inside, the culture. I could see that the kids, even those that were not abused, were not given any tools to survive beyond their teen years.. as though life was just one long music video, where no one grew old, or had to pay a bill, or get job.

The change has to come from within.. it's true. Corporate America has been far too successful selling a materialistic dream to the kids, and the families.. that if you own those things (or rent-to-own), they you are a success. Very little in popular culture shows the way to permanent success (happy families, good relationships, good parenting, school success, good job).

[noiretextatique]

67. i am from the inner city...i can agree with some of this

however, i don't like "solutions" that place all of a problem solely on the shoulders of the sub-culture without placing any on the larger culture. i think you know what i mean.

[One_Life_To_Give]

86. Where did he say ALL?

I think Cosby's point was just the opposite. That the whole problem can't be placed on the "Larger Culture". That people need to understand that they have a part to play in their own success, not just blame someone/thing else. IMHO

[noiretextatique]

104. frankly...that's bullshit...yes, bullshit

because it assumes that people actually "blame someone/something else," when what i am talking about is RESPONSIBILITY...all around...get it?
cosby's comments were at an NAACP dinner....i wonder how much it cost to hear him speak? i wonder how many of the people in the audience would be INSULTED if those comments were directed at THEM? but they weren't directed at those folks, were they? no...cause it would be racist to tell black doctors, lawyers, engineers and scientists that they need to take responsibility for themselves and speak standard english.
in fact, if a white person said any of this...everyone here would be talking about how racist the comments were.

[bicentennial_baby]

33. The Coz does a lot for my local community in MA

Bill and his wife live about 15 min from me, and they do great things for our local community, like donating beaucoup $$$ to local schools, letting local farmers work his fields free of charge, etc. He also reports for jury duty in our lil po-dunk town. He's a good guy, imho.

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. He's right about the parenting

Talk to some public school teachers and you will find out how much of their job is spent parenting their students because the kdis aren't getting it at home. It's not only the lower socio-economic groups, but they do make up the bulk of them.

However, what he did not seem to consider is that for every parent out there who doesn't give a flying &^%*$, there are others who aren't parenting because they are never home. Too busy trying to hold down multiple jobs just to keep their families going.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. Cosby is trying to get people to deal with reality and take responsibility

I have a good friend who is AA and Muslim. She wears the traditional dress and doesn't touch men she is not related to ect...yet she is one of the most liberated and liberal people I know. She would agree with what Cosby is saying.
But I have to say that this is not just a problem with AA youth. There are just as many white and hispanic kids going down this same road to perpetual ignorance and failure.

[9215]

114. I agree, Good post

:thumbsup:

[Loonman]

36. He does have a point

Natch.

[theboss]

37. Cosby has been on this kick for years

It predates the death of his son.

About ten years ago, he caused some controversy by complaining that shows like "Martin" and "Def Comedy Jam" were forcing blacks to act - in his words - like "minstrels."

And the truth is, he has a point. Youth culture in general - which is largely being driven by black youth culture - is growing increasingly negative, I think. And the trend towards extreme anti-intellectualism is alarming.

This is basically what Chris Rock was talking about in his "Black people vs. N-----s" riff. "(They) love to keep it real....real dumb."

[truthspeaker]

38. I agree with those points, and Bill is in a good position to make them

Self-improvement has to come from within the African-American community, not imposed from outside by white liberals like me.

Unfortunately, this will probably morph in to an email chain letter soon.

[JayS]

43. I've got to agree with Mr. Cosby. He has always been ahead...

...of his time in saying things that need to be said. What he is saying applies to all races and ethnic groups.

[progressivebydesign]

47. He spoke the truth.

Is that a problem? I'm sorry that some people are so quick to defend the total breakdown of the African American society, by accepting less of them, then you would of any other race. That people accept the lopsided prison numbers, illiteracy, and lack of stable families for the black community, is sad. It's as though you all think that they are not capabale of anything better. They are. Accepting things as they are is almost racist, really. I think it's about time someone called attention to the fact that the dialect being pushed in popular black culture, was virtually non-existent up until the late 80's, except for the poorest, least educated of the black community. Now, it's considered by many to be acceptable. It's a tragedy. Corporate America is pushing a materialistic, dead-end dream on those kids... instant gratification... and an obliviousness to the fact that life goes on after you turn 30. What then?

[bread_and_roses]

48. How can Cosby or anyone else be defended for

seeming to justify shooting a person in the head for a stolen coke or slice of cake? This is OK? We should forget the endless evidence of racism in the actions of the police? We should forget that we abandoned the inner-cities to third world conditions and then blame the inhabitants for not exemplifying middle class values?

If poor kids on welfare are wearing $500 sneakers, I doubt they are getting the money from Mom, at least in NY state. The total welfare grant for a family of two for a month wouldn't buy $500 sneakers.

As for the comments on today's youth, I am 52 and they sound exactly like what I heard about MY generation when we were that age. Not that I am proud of what my generation has become. We started out protesting the war and supporting Earth Day, and somehow ended up with George Bush and Enron. We owe the world a great debt, but not because of our music or speech.

[progressivebydesign]

50. The $500 dollar shoe comment was just a vehicle...

.. he used that number to illustrate the story, he used the pound cake story that way, too. He was making a point, that is hard for people to hear.. often times, harder for white liberals to hear more than anyone.

I do a lot of volunteer projects. Often, I deliver food, etc. to the homes of people of color, people on public assistance. How do I say this? The most stunning feauture of the homes I've been in is this.. the home is usually sparsely furnished, but the television/entertainment cabinet is outfitted with top of the line equipment. It never fails. They've been sold a dream by Corporate America.. own the stuff, and you have success. Life is just one long music video where no one grows old, buys a home, graduates college. Rent-to-own places, credit jewelry stores (where the merchandise is expensive, but the terms are good), etc.. all ways for poor families to have the spoils of success, without the tools of success. Materialism and total indifference to the future is what Cosby is talking about... He's not being racist. He's making a point about materialism in leiu of parenting.

[sangh0]

55. What's up with the DUmmies who believe WorldNet?

.

[Mike Daniels]

81. It was a speech he gave at a event

How the hell do you spin that esp. since they included the comments that came from the speaker after Cosby?

[sangh0]

95. So what?

Anyone can take a speech and quote selectively.

[noiretextatique]

56. cosby is a pompous ass

and he always has been. sure...there is a nugget of truth in what he is saying, but he's just as bad as rush with the stererotypes.

[misanthrope]

57. So, I guess...

...Spike Lee is a hard-line right winger now, too, according to some of you.

Anyone here see "Bamboozled?" Spike was saying the same thing, among other topics, in more stark style. At some point, you have to stop blaming others and be willing to seize your own rudder. That was Malcolm's point and it seems wasted on those unwilling to do such. How do you expect to defy bigotry when you do everything in your power to reinforce negative stereotypes?

Not only is the vehement anti-intellectualism of much pop culture self-defeating, but it also runs contrary to the most powerful empowerment movements of the last century. Whether it was Elijah Mohammed, Marcus Garvey, W.E.B. DuBois, Medgar Evers, MLK, John Lewis, Bobby Seale, or Huey Newton, "education" and "character" were key components to their philosophies.

And as far as linguistics, English is the commonly agreed language of exchange in this culture. I dare say most people have been plugged into our omnipresent telecommunications since infancy and have little excuse for not realizing what form of English falls into that category. To defy such, then expect the rest of the world to cater to your purposeful shortcomings in that area, is ridiculous. Would you move to France and expect everyone to capitulate to some form of pidgin language you cobbled together from whim and ignorance?

[noiretextatique]

59. spike lee has his own issues

you know...black people did not create current conditions ALONE. comments like cosby's, in my view, give that impression. empowerment is wonderful, however, that is only one half of the equation. if it wasn't...given all the spokespeople you mention: the problem would have been solved a long time ago.

[bedtimeforbonzo]

60. Chris Rock said pretty much the same thing, but much harsher

in his "Black People vs Niggers" routine. You can hear some of his audience getting pissed at him, too.

[noiretextatique]

64. black people, particularly privileged ones, have always said this

which is basically, "i did it, so can you." as to whether that's true or not...i doubt it is any truer for blacks than it is for whites.

[sangh0]

65. Thank God someone else understands how traditional this is

While there is reason for some to take offense at the tone, what Cosby said is not incompatible with the philosophies of many noted leaders in the black community

[noiretextatique]

68. but this only addresses A PART OF THE PROBLEM

that's why people are STILL talking about it today.

[sangh0]

69. Yes, that's true

I am not saying there are no grounds to criticize this line of thought. I was merely objecting to those comments which imply that Cosby's comments are somehow a betrayal of black people, when his words are entirely consistent with the words of black leaders who came before him.

I would also like to point to the source, and raise the possibility that their coverage is slanted. I really doubt that Cosby said "Poor kids can't talk English". I suspect they might have left some of Cosby's points out in order to make it appear that Cosby agrees with their bigotry.

[noiretextatique]

70. no...not a betrayal

and i've heard cosby before. it just bothers me that someone lke cosby doesn't connect the dots better.

[Shakespeare]

73. How do you know he doesn't connect the dots?

Given the work and money he's given to try to improve things (look at his charitable donations, the groups he's connected with), I'd say he understands perfectly. That he occasionally speaks out in frustration about there being a need for personal responsibility in concert with fighting social and economic prejudice is, I think, perfectly understandable.

[sangh0]

75. Also, it's possible that Cosby DID connect those dots

but the scumbags at WorldNetDaily left them out.

[noiretextatique]

77. now that is true...

and i will give him the benefit of doubt, considering the source.
just never really cared for him...

[noiretextatique]

76. no...i don't think it is understandable

i think it's a copout. it's a copout when chris rock does it, and it's a copout when he does it. without the 'personal responsibility' people took before him, he wouldn't be where he is now.

[Shakespeare]

79. Why is it a copout?

??

[noiretextatique]

82. perhaps that isn't the correct word

i don't think cosby's words will have any impact whatsoever on the poeple he is talking about. but they will get the attention of rw newspapers and internet discussion groups. i just question who messages like this are intended for.

[IrateCitizen]

Considering it was an an NAACP event for the Brown decision...

It's pretty clear who the remarks were intended for.

[noiretextatique]

87. sure are a lot of poor black people who attend those functions

indeed...it's clear who the message was for.

[Tomee450]

113. Agree

"i don't think cosby's words will have any impact whatsoever on the poeple he is talking about. but they will get the attention of rw newspapers and internet discussion group."

Absolutely right. Cosby has just given more ammunition to the right wingers. Now we'll be hearing "just as Bill Cosby said."

[theboss]

84. This is essentially the argument Arthur Ashe made for years

He was against a lower bar for acceptance of black athletes to colleges since he felt that worked against them in the long run through diminished expectations.

[utopian]

66. And Chuck D Too

Check out Public Enemy's Son of a Bush cd. It speaks frankly and directly to the black community about these very issues.

[IrateCitizen]

61. While I don't agree with all of Coz's tone on this, he has some points

I've done my teaching observations at an NYC public HS. I don't think that ANY of the classes I observed were "white" -- outside of myself and two of the teachers.

One thing I noticed was the clothes that these kids were wearing -- virtually all of whom were black and Latino, and I would surmise not exceptionally well-off to be going to an NYC public school. EVERYTHING was name-brand: Enyce, Roca Wear, Phat Farm, Baby Phat, etc. There was one kid in particular who was wearing a different official NBA jersey every other day I saw him.

Now, my wife and I are pretty comfortable, with a household income solidly in the upper middle class. I can't really afford to spend the kind of money that the clothes worn by these kids costs. And I'll be damned if I'm going to throw my money away on it, when I can either save it or put it toward a much better use (like home improvement, for instance). Why in the hell are these kids' parents buying them clothes like this?

On another note, I don't know how many times I went into a fast food joint when I was going to school in West Philly, and saw a person working in McDonalds with a beeper, cell phone, and about 15 different pieces of gold on.

And I'll readily say that this is just as prevalent in poor white areas as in poor black or Latino areas. I read an account of a cable installer who worked in a poor section of rural AZ or TX, and the people living out there in shit-ass trailers only wanted to spend their money on cable TV.

There's no culture of improvement among the lower economic classes anymore. It's all about distraction and the "bling-bling". Now, it could also be said that this culture developed as avenues for people to move from poor to middle class were gradually cut off over the past 30 years, but that doesn't absolve the focus on instant gratification over all else that is prevalent among much of the lower economic classes.

[Sandpiper]

71. What you describe are symptoms of the problem

The problem itself is that our society has reached a point where we've placed a greater value on consumerism than we do on education. This problem isn't unique to African Americans either, it cuts all the way across the racial divide in America.

[IrateCitizen]

83. I noted in my post that it reaches across the racial divide

But as with most problems, acknowledging the fact that it exists within a larger context does not mean that each individual, or the subculture as a whole, is absolved of all guilt in the process.

While I certainly am aware of the pervasive nature of advertising in our society, for instance, I also recognize that the reason I do not really fall prey to it much anymore is because I tend to avoid TV more and also make a conscious decision of how I want to live my life.

While the RW is correctly pilloried for its insistence on "personal responsibility" while ignoring the overall social context, many of us on the left are equally guilty of absolving the individual of any and all guilt while placing all the blame on society as a whole.

[Sandpiper]

116. I agree that society's misplaced values

Are everyone's fault, both individually and collectively, unless you happen to be one of those who are actively fighting against these misplaced priorities.

What I find a tad hypocritical though is Bill Cosby wagging his finger about misplaced priorities, when he himself has been actively promoting consumerism for years, shilling for Jello and Coca Cola.

Something tells me that we never would have seen Malcom X on a commercial, telling us that there's always room for J-E-L-L-O.

[amazona]

62. he's sort of a sociopath

I've seen his act a couple times, and he is very entertaining, but we need to remember, he's an actor, he's paid to stand there and act all upper middle class family funny.

I understand in real life he's a raging sociopath and I believe it after hearing about how he helped have his daughter jailed for extortion. You don't do that to your daughter. You just don't. Not if you have a heart anyway...

[Susang]

74. WTF?

Do you even know what a sociopath is? And if you do, how can you justify calling someone who has done as much charity work and good deeds as Bill Cosby a "raging" one? :wtf:

[9215]

115. You sound like one of the kids Cosby was

talking about who got his/her hands on a Behavioural Sciences dictionary.
:eyes:

[MsMagnificent]

80. Will Smith derides it too

("it"= for lack of better word, Ebonics)

Will Smith derides it too & is just as much against it. He's quite verbal about it... why not go after him also?
*puzzled*

I swear sometimes - I think I see the Thought Police in all KINDS of venues... where's my tinfoil hat? :D

[noiretextatique]

85. zora neale hurston

a novelist and anthropologist wrote a few books using AAVE dialect. her intent was to document the humanity of the people who spoke this dialect in the south during the early part of the last century. toni morrison uses this dialect in her writings as well.
of course cosby and will smith have a point about the necessity of learning standard english, something both morrison and hurston understand as well.

[justjones]

98. Hurston's "Their Eyes Were Watching God" is one of the best novels, ever.

And it's written entirely in black vernacular and I find it all the more richer because of it.

[zoidberg]

106. Mark Twain wrote with dialects too...

But that doesn't mean that I should expect to succeed in life talking like Huck Finn. I loved Their Eyes Were Watching God when I read it in high school. But how many African American youth who speak in ebonics (or whites for that matter) go home and study Hurston or Morrison?

[Loonman]

88. As does Chris Rock

In his "Bigger and Blacker" HBO special.

[Alpharetta]

91. Now that you mention it, I'm not happy with Chris Rock lately

I awaited his April HBO special with great anticipation.

He'd gone about 2 years since the last HBO special. This one would run all summer long on HBO. In the months leading up to Election 2004, at least once a week it would run and there he'd be, tearing into George Bush until there was no meat left on the bone.

He'd ridicule Bush's backers. the war apologists. all the warmongering draft dodgers. the carrier landing.

he'd be giving Tussin to the Iraqi kids who'd had their families hit with smart bombs.

He'd ridicule the tax cuts. the drug card. the drug war. Cat skinner Bill Frist. bush's global warming initiative. no child left behind.

It would be hilarious, I figured.

Didn't happen. Sellout.

[theboss]

96. Did you think Chris Rock was Dick Gregory?

He's never been THAT topical.

[Alpharetta]

99. you're right

I deluded myself into believing the politics Chris Rock had in "Down To Earth" would migrate to his stand-up in these new times.

That's one thing different between the 60's, 70's vs. today.

Back then, the best political humor came from the counterculture. Dick Gregory, George Carlin.

Now, the best political humor comes from "The Daily Show".

[Frangible]

93. He makes good points

As only someone who is black can without getting called a racist. It's almost impossible to have a dialog over this. Anyway, I don't agree with him on all accounts, but he has a lot of good, valid points.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

94. i lost all respect for cosby when..

he went on letterman a few years back and was extolling the virtues of art modell and fighting with dave and teling him that modell actually cared about the people he screwed over in cleveland

[Carolina]

100. As a Black person, I agree with Cos

Flame him and me, but many folks I know talk all the time about how we as a race are going backward. My parents and grandparents grew up with hatred and segregation but all spoke English well and valued education and achievement. Today, among some, they would be derided for trying to be white.

Much of BET, MTV and even Black sit-coms glorify ghetto-chic crap from language devolution to preoccupation with clothes (shoes), cars (think of MTV's 'pimp my ride') and houses (again MTVs 'cribs'). When my son was much younger, he wanted a starter jacket and some Jordan's (sneakers that cost over $150). My husband and I said fine; you earn the money, you can buy them. So he earned the money (took quite some time since he was 15) but then realized HE didn't want to blow all his hard-earned cash on a pair of shoes he would likely outgrow before they wore out. But look at the sports paraphenalia like starter jackets, jerseys, oversized shorts and shoes that are peddled to black males and look, too, at how many stupidly sacrifice necessities to buy this crap. And how, as Chris Rock so aptly said, they will spend a fortune to put a pair of rims on a junk car!

Speaking of Jordan's, too. Let me get on my soapbox about Michael Jordan (and the sad fact that far too many young black males want to be like Mike or the sports 'hero' du jour). Michael's NBA career was launched at UNC-Chapel Hill, a fine school he would not have been able to attend if not for civil rights trailblazers like Harvey Gantt. In one of his Senate races against that racist dog Jesse Helms, Gantt asked Jordan if he would make some campaign appearances with him. Michael, ever the grateful shill for Nike, declined because in his paraphrased words: republicans buy shoes too!

Cosby is right about the misplaced and misguided values, and the poor language skills with in-your-face effrontery. But the problem is also that of corporatism and consumerism that plagues ALL of America, that 'ethic' of make money, more money, spend money, more money, buy bigger, better, faster, newer ... take no prisoners, by any means necessary... Don't read, don't think, don't reflect (that's for wimps, nerds, sissies and intellectual elites).

[Susang]

102. A redeeming story about Michael Jordan

I am not Michael Jordan's biggest fan. I don't even like the man much, and I live in Chicago where that's a capital offense. But he did just donate $100,000 to Democratic senatorial candidate Barack Obama's campaign. I was very surprised and very grateful to him for this, since it give increases Illinois' chance of having the only black male senator.

[Carolina]

103. that's good news

perhaps he's learned a thing or two since 1996. Glad to hear it :)

[Susang]

109. I hope he keeps it up

Maybe age has taught him a thing or two. I remain cautiously optimistic. :-)

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

117. Black stereotyping.

Im white,, but was fortunate to be exposed to some black people in college, and then on the job, and taking some courses on post civil war southern history.

Based on this I think alot of what we see on TV and such is stereotyping...this "ghetto" thing. Yes its colorful and entertaining and it sells but theres alot more out there when it comes to the history of the black community.

There is a strong tradition of achievement in the black community that really doesnt' get talked about much, or hightlghted, and perhaps that what Cosby is hitting on in his remarks.

[fortyfeetunder]

101. yeah might as well skewer and flame me too

I agree with Coz. -- However, where can I find the full context of his speech? the wingnuts gave the part that was attractive to their group...

[Sandpiper]

111. It was an NAACP function

So maybe the NAACP website?

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

112. My brother produced the Cosby show

and Cosby from what I hear is kind of a strange dude. He's also very racist.

[Sandpiper]

118. The Huxtables were one of the most unrealistic TV families

Of all time.

Dad was a doctor, Mom was a lawyer, and they had five perfect, squeaky clean kids.

How many people can relate to that, black or white?

[fortyfeetunder]

120. It is possible!

These are the families you don't read about. Particularly the Black couples who don't subscribe to the bourgeoisie concept and operate low key.