Why don't we stop funding Israel?

[napi21]

Seems like evey day we hear about another attack from Israel or Palestine on the other. Shrub keeps saying stuff like, Israel, please use restraint.

I'm tired of being in the middle of this mess.

If they want to fight their centuries long religious war, fine....go ahead, just leave me out of it.

I don't know if it's true, but I sure have heard a lot of talk about the US being targeted by Arab countries because of our support for Israel. At this point, I don't care. If they want to eliminate each other, that's their decision. Just leave us out of it.

I don't love or hate either side. They are both right and both wrong.

If the Hatfields & McCoys lived beside me, I'd say the same thing....do what you have to do, but leave me out of it!

[molly]

1. Why don't we stop funding Palestine and the Arab nation

huh.?

Ask how much we have given them and Arafat has stolen. Yay - you are "leave me out of it".

Ask - go ahead and ask.

[napi21]

3. Sorry, pull the funds on both!

I'd like to see both sides come to aome agreement, but that doesn't seem likely. Sorry I didn't include funding for the Palestinians; iI just never hear about that money. If we're funding them too, shame on us. Stop it all.

[Nlighten1]

45. Exactly.

I'm sick of seeing my money get innocent people killed on both sides of this.

[leesa]

58. Far more goes to Israel....billions in unpaid "loans" We purchased their

military for them.

[keithyboy]

63. It's a drop in the bucket for the Palestinians and used mainly to fix

what Israel has torn up.

[redqueen]

4. I'm curious so I'll ask

How much do we give annually to Palestine?

[bigbillhaywood]

9. 94 billion. nt

[redqueen]

13. $94 billion a year to Palestine?

:wow:

Got a cite?

on edit: I see in a later post you were talking about what we give to Israel. I take it that's a total of several years? I think it's closer to $14 B annually but honestly a great deal of the aid they get is buried deep (hidden) in other crap.

Transparency would be nice. :)

[bigbillhaywood]

8. There's no comparison-- we don't give the PA 94 billion in aid

like we do for Israel, nor do we supply the PA with everything from M-16s to Apaches and F-16s. Any violence the PA carries out is done on their own dime, where as we finance and supply Israel's war against the Palestinians. But yeah, in the final analysis I do think the the US should not support Israel or the PA.

[Bombtrack]

38. Israel has a war against the Pallestinians like America has a war against

abortion bombers. Of course all or most Pallestinians are not terrorists but you know what, Israel is not at war with the one's that aren't. It doesn't target the one's that aren't.

[Classical_Liberal]

48. The Palestinians have a legitmate grievence

nor are all of them bombers. I don't agree.

[Bombtrack]

54. Uhh, I specifically said all of them weren't bombers

"Of course all or most Pallestinians are not terrorists"

How clearer does one need be.

Alot of people have grievances, legitimate or not. It doesn't give them the right to say the government in which they live under is "at war" with them.

And the main "grievance" the groups which Israel is defending itself from, that Israel does not have the right to exist or does NOT exist, is ILLIGITIMATE.

[Classical_Liberal]

60. The PA recognizes Israel's right to exist

The Israeli government IS at war with them. It wants to ethnically cleans them from the west bank and replace them with settlers. That is why the bulldose houses. The Israeli government in which the Palestinians on the West Bank live under has no right to govern the west bank. If it does, than it has a responsibility to allow the Palestinians on the West Bank to vote and be citizens of that country. It allows neither. It is practicing Jim Crow on the Palestinians.

[keithyboy]

64. How is Gaza different from Rwanda?

People are trapped inside Gaza and the Palestinian territories and are sitting ducks for anything that Israel decides to do. It is shameful how the rest of the world sits by and how the US funds and supports this genocide. That's exactly what it is, genocide.

[sir_captain]

72. That's just plain ignorant

[Classical_Liberal]

97. It hasn't reached the genocide level, but it is ethnic cleansing

.

[sir_captain]

99. Ethnic cleansing <> Genocide

There is a *huge* difference and garbage like this shouldn't be tolerated.

Personally, other than the cuckoo settlers and some crazy Likudniks, I don't really think that most Israelis are into ethnic cleansing either.

[Classical_Liberal]

103. Israelis elect Likudniks. They are either tolerant or supportive

The majority advocate transfer according to the polls.

The verdict is in. An unprecedented majority of Israelis supports transfer for the purpose of achieving peace between the Arabs and the Jews. In case you missed them, let us briefly recapture the highlights of the events that must inevitably bring us to this conclusion. Polls conducted in February 2002 in Israel demonstrated that 46% of respondents supported the transfer of Arabs from Judea, Samaria and Gaza while 60% were inclined towards the transfer of Arabs from Israel prope

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:obqElYT3TdcJ:www.freeman.org/m_online/dec03/shusteff1.htm+polls+transfer+Israelis&hl=en

[sir_captain]

104. The Israelis

elected the Likud party in response to the PA's scuttling of Barak's peace talks--plain and simple. The majority of Israelis support a Palestinian state.

[Classical_Liberal]

105. That is true. They have been mislead by Barak and Sharon

into thinking that the Palestinians were given a generous offer. Barak's offer wasn't that generous. Arafat has offered to reopen negotiations several times, and Sharon has refused, saying there was no partner for peace. Here is what Barak offered the Palestinians according Gush Shalom.



The west bank would have been split into three bantustans.

[sir_captain]

107. If Arafat is so willing to negotiate now

why couldn't he have done it then? I agree that Barak's offer was not ideal, but it seems like it was a pretty decent starting point for discussion, you know?

Maybe we wouldn't have to put up with Sharon now if Arafat hadn't just walked out...

[Classical_Liberal]

109. He's been offering to restart negotiations for 3 yrs now

Sharon just wouldn't do it. They didn't trust Barak because Barak wasn't offering good deals, and didn't even freeze the settlements. The settlements expanded more under Barak than any other leader.

[rinsd]

14. ?

I Know we give Egypt a ton of dough but the PA?

[The Stranger]

91. You really don't want to argue that. Trust me, it's a loser.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

[sir_captain]

100. What do your assurances or link

have to do with Molly's point?

Why is Arafat so rich while his people starve?

[mopaul]

2. ditto

good luck with this thread, logic in this matter is often attacked.
it's so simple, stop supplying israel with billions and bombs, stop buying oil from the saudi royals, stop meddling in other nation's affairs, stop nation building, etc.

there is a curse on that tract of holy land

[napi21]

6. Intersting you tossed in the buying oil topic.

Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't think I would cut off my bigget customer. There's all kind of talk about keeping friends with the Saudis to maintain the oil supply. Do you really believe OPEC would shut the spigot on the US because we stopped funding Israel and Palestine?

[barbaraann]

5. Disturbing picture

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040518/480/gh10505181511

[redqueen]

12. Didn't the UN chastise Israel's attacking of the Rafah refugee camp?

Was that for this current series of attacks or the last one?

:crazy:

[barbaraann]

20. I think they criticized both.

But nothing ever comes of the condemnations.

[fryguy]

7. let's also stop

giving money to Egypt, the Palestinians, the Saudis, the Indonesians....

The US isn't target by the Arab world only because it supports Israel. The US is a target because of our imperialistic tendancies and our history of influencing issues in the region to benefit us without regard for the inhabitants - whether it be siding with the House of Saud to insure a constant flow of oil and allowing them to castigate their population, or supporting one side and then the other in the Iran-Iraq war, and lets not forget our support for the Shah, etc. ect....

I think it could be guaranteed that, were we to withdraw all support for Israel, condemn their every action, the Arab world would still be on us like white-on-rice.......were that the answer so simple....

[Journeyman]

10. Joseph Heller once remarked that we need Israel. . .

because we've got to have a place to tie up our ships, get our boys laid.

I used to laugh at that comment. Now it seems more reasonable than most other ideas that get tossed about.

[Serenity-NOW]

11. The Beatles were so right... Money can't buy me love... n/t

[Jose Diablo]

15. Why do we give money to anybody? n/t

[IranianDemocrat]

16. Because then the arabs will drive Israel into the sea.

Do you want to be responsible for holocaust 2?

[Jose Diablo]

18. Why would we be responsible if the arabs drive Israel

into the sea?

[IranianDemocrat]

19. We fund Israel's defense.

Unfortunately they're using it to collectively opress the Palestinian people, but cutting off all their aid is simply not the answer.

[redqueen]

22. Doesn't that aid come with the agreement

that they will NOT use it in acts of aggression? or against Palestinian civilians?

I know there's some limitation attached to that military aid that they flagrantly violate and we say 'please don't violate the terms of our agreement', and then we proceed to look the other way as they continue as usual.

[IranianDemocrat]

24. I agree,

but cutting off the aid is simply not the answer AT THIS POINT.

[redqueen]

31. Sorry, I can't agree with you

stuff like this tells me it's way past time to cut them off.

[newyorican]

33. actually...

it is the only answer at this point. If the IDF is representitive of the Israeli populace, they've gone collectively insane. Either way, defunding is the answer.

The Boers in SA also said "Now is not the time" when it came to sanctions...

[Jose Diablo]

28. Why isn't cutting off all aid an answer.

Where exactly does it say the USA funds and protects other countries. I don't recall that anyplace in the constitution.

However, I do recall warnings from George Washington about becoming involved in other countries problems, to the detriment of the USA.

As far as I see, the only reason we provide aid to Israel is to insure there is a conflict over there and thus justifying our military presence. The military presence is to protect our economic interest in the oil.

Now IF, the USA had been concentrating on new energy sources and spending the money there, then we would not care one iota about Israel. To be sure there are voter blocks that do care about Israel, but if they care that much, well let them take their money and move there.

Lets stop dual citizenship too, while we are at it. Chose you country, USA or Israel and then live with the decision.

Let us be honest about our motives here. Its the oil, always has been about the oil.

[napi21]

23. I don't believe that. Israel seems to be quite able to defent itself.

The Israli military seems to be quite capable of defending itself against it's enemies. The thing they can't defent against are the suicide bombers.....but then...neither can we! No one can.

[nomaco-10]

30. And lest we forget...

Israel has nukes and has come very close to using them on occasion. Hard to protect yourself from nukes with an RPG and a rusty russian rifle. I wouldn't worry about Israel too much...

[charlie]

25. Baloney

Vex them with endless acts of terrorism, yes. But holocaust 2? Israel can glass the whole mideast and the Arab nations know it.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. Bull Israel isn't that defenseless

besides Israel would most likely get out of the west bank before it would surrender our aid, and if it doesn't it will be driven into the sea anyway. It is too suicidal to live.

[Loonman]

51. Israel has about 200 deliverable nukes

They don't need our money

[AntiCoup2K4]

17. We should cut off Israel entirely, until they outlaw the Likud party.

The Likud are "state sponsored terrorism", after all.

[nomaco-10]

26. "state sponsored terrorism"....

Sounds like the regime we've been forced to live under. Likud is a mirror image of the bush* cabal. No wonder bush* and sharon are as thick as two thieves, they have alot in common, they're both thieves and murderers and the two biggest terrorists in the world. They're very existence is a scourge on this planet.

[Taverner]

21. OMG now you done it

Quick...everyone run lest ye be hit by *friendly* fire...

[DoNotRefill]

27. Great idea!!!

Gee, when the Arabs move in to eradicate Israel and kill all Israeli Jews, why don't we station the navy off the coast to make sure none escape? <BIG sarcasm>

Some say the Israelis are trying to ethnically cleanse the occupied territories by driving the Palestinians out. Of course, the Arabs have been trying to commit genocide since a few minutes after Israel came into existence. How long did Arafat and the PLO hold the official position that Israel was "an affront to Allah" and all Israeli Jews had to be exterminated?

[napi21]

29. Sharon & Arafat are equally bad.

You apparently missed my point in this thread. I said they are both wrong! We whould let them fight it out.

I often wonder if a lot of this fighting would subside if there was no world stage for both!

[Classical_Liberal]

53. You won't make the pro-likudiks happy unless you support settlements

and shut up.

[Classical_Liberal]

52. He wanted a bi=national palestine before he adopted to the

two state solution, so they never advocated genocide. That is just a lie.

[kodi]

32. they'd increase their sales of weapons technologies to our enemies

in fact, they have been selling secretly their armaments for years, even to the point of selling missile technologies to pakistan, which "mysteriously" found its way to china and north korea.....with israeli technicians in both countries.

the israelis are everywhere one looks when weapons are being sold. they have good military technologies and export it for hard cash. whenever one is looking to by arms for say, a small bush war in africa, you will find the israelis there plying their trade.

that the israelis do it is the worst secret kept in the intelligence community. the americans turn a blind eye because if they stopped it, the american congress would just send israel the money over the table.

uh, yeah, btw, they're america's friend.

just like the french are too.

[fujiyama]

36. You are right

that Israel is funding a lot of little wars with weapons (weapons sales is a pretty big part of the Israeli economy I believe).

However, the US is no better when it comes to weapons sales and proliferation. The US recently gave Pakistan atleast 3 Billion dollars in military aid, along with having their debts reduced, etc, yet I hear very few on the left condemning that. Pakistan has atleast as bad a human rights record as Israel, if not worse.

I'm not here to argue that the US should still keep funding Israel with aid. Actually, I personally am in favor of a 100% halt to ALL military aid to all nations. Usually the military aid is a nice way of funneling money to defense contractors. After all, they use that aid to purchase stuff from us. It's really corporate welfare, with the added benefit of completely destabilizing the world.

The US should quit ALL military aid -- not only to Israel -- but to Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, and anywhere else.

BTW, I'm curious about the Israeli missile sales to Pakistan. Do you have a link for that? I do know that Israel was at one point willing to sell the Chinese the AWACS radar system, but the US overruled on it. Israel did eventually sell it to India. I wouldn't be too surprised if that were true though. The Israelis will sell weapons to just about anyone on the planet -- just as the Russians, the Chinese, and the US.

[kodi]

47. a link i had archived, and a google link

there are 680 citations for "israeli arms sales"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22israeli+arms+sales%22

and the link i had archived from 2002

ISRAELI ARMS SALES TO IRAN

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:-Z8qddati2UC:www.washington-report.org/backissues/1186/8611002.html++%22israeli+arms+sales%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:G31uYuOAu5sC:www.washington-report.org/backissues/1193/9311006.htm++%22israeli+arms+sales%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Revelations about Israel’s seemingly ubiquitous role in China's missile development and export program have resulted in The Economist reporting that the "black joke" among arms proliferation experts is that "Israeli technicians had secretly helped China improve the . . . accuracy" of missiles shipped to most of Israel's Arab neighbors.

[Yupster]

34. If we cut off aid to Israel

then Israel would have two choices.

It could cease to exist and watch its Jewish citizens murdered to the last, or it could start nuking the countless numbers of its enemies.

Without aid, the Israeli eceonomy could not survive being in a war state year after year. If it does not remain in a war state, it will not survive.

One of the Palestinian demands is the removal of Jewish settlements from their land. Since they consider all Israel their land, the Jews would be "removed" without our help.

Of course another Palestinian demand is the right of Palestinians to return and live within Israel, so the demand is you get out of our land, and we demand to live in yours.

[Bombtrack]

40. delete

delete

[Classical_Liberal]

56. Wrong. The Palestinians have recognized the legitimacy of the

Israeli state since Oslo. Before that they wanted a binational state, so the ethnic cleansing thing is a lie.

The Israelis do not need to hold the settlements to survive. Most likely they would get out if we didn't give them aid. In no way would not giving them aid endanger their existence.

[MrSlayer]

35. Level the "Holy" Sites!

Get rid of all that shit and then see what they want to fight over. Bill Maher is dead on with this.

[Cascadian]

37. Let's stop funding and being in the Middle East altogether.

We have been playing in the fire for so long and we have already been burned a few times. Is the U.S. finally going to stop when it is engulfed in flames or what? We have to get out of their and find other ways to find energy resources. And I think we cater to Israel too damn much anyways especially with this ultra-right-wing government that they have there.


John

[NuttyFluffers]

39. because you don't have a lobby ;)

;) yes that's right, your lobby is weaker than theirs. too bad. what to do? build a bigger lobby... ain't it great gov't logic? the lobbyists are the people!!! :evilgrin:

[Bombtrack]

41. For the same reason you don't take away the bodyguard of a person

with 3000 crazy fucking stalkers.

Because most American's are not content with our allie that happens to be the only democracy in a region and it's citizens being destroyed by racist maniacs.

Israel, and the Wuhhabbiists and Khomeniists are NOT on a morally equal playing feild. Israel does not have as an expressed goal the annihilation of the Arab or Islamic people or one or all of their nations, the Islamic fascists do.

No Muslim in the country's that mainly export the murderous ideology that Israel is protecting itself from lives in fear day in and day out of themselves or there loved one's being blown apart and having their innards line the streets by Jewish terrorists. The reverse is a reality clearly missed by you "anti-Zionist" folks.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

46. Reminds me of Little Green Footballs

people hate Israel because it's the "chic" thing to do :eyes:

[Nihil]

86. ?

> "Reminds me of Little Green Footballs"

Care to share the meaning of this trite message please?

> people hate Israel because it's the "chic" thing to do :eyes:

Yeah, right, whatever ... :eyes:

[sir_captain]

55. Bullshit

just look at all the I/P threads in the last few days--many more on the side of the Palestinians. Stop feeling sorry for yourself--no one is out to get you for your opinions

[Classical_Liberal]

62. There are several pro-likud posters there who have openly

embraced segregation(Jewish only neighborhoods), and they idea that all Palestinians are terrorists(happened yesterday in zionsim thread in GD). They don't get banned. I don't see similar tolerance for right wing views when it comes to people who advocate for Palestinian rights. Furthermore, these threads always get moved to I/P because it is a way to hide them. That way only people who are really into the issue will post on them. The number of pro-likud types then outnumber the two state solution people, when you hide the i/p forum so only really committed will post to it. Neocons don't thrive well in the open waters of GD. Look at this thread. It is obvious the neocons are the clear minority. Not so obvious in that hidden dungeon called I/P. When these threads are moved they get locked because everything has to be from a mainstream article or op/ed there. You can't ask any independent questions. Since the media are biased toward pro-likud views, this favors the conservative view point.

[Bombtrack]

65. Oh yeah, NAME THEM. Who here is pro-Likud?

I get called a racist, whether through code words or not, on a regular basis for harsh language against the direction of Islam and the injustice in most Arab Muslim governments, and my secular driven views about it.

Rarely are those posts deleted. I believe who you refer to as advocates of Pallestinian rights, are often people who express said belief as advocates of hatred towards Israel. And when those of us who've been unnerved by the sea change of what we see as Ignorant propaganda polluting much of the left about Israeli affairs get easily frustrated by that type of thing.

[Classical_Liberal]

78. Post 93 and 95 of this thread

in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1619403

You have to click the posts this poster is replying to to to get it. This poster clearly get's a kick out of people hating arabs and thinking all Arabs terrorist. He also loves Sharon which makes him a likudnik.

Now check out the advocacy of segregated neighborhoods in post 86 of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x67584


I alerted all of these posts. The posters are still here, and their racist posts were not even deleted. I can't see a pro-Israel poster who advocates two states getting the same toleration from moderaters that these conservatives are getting.

[sir_captain]

71. I think you're way off-base

in describing pro-israeli posters as neocons. one could even argue that is a violation of the DU rules. the I/P question is one that transcends partisanship, and we should not reduce ourselves to calling those who disagree with us freepers.

you are absolutely right that there are a certain number of extremists--on both sides of the issue. frankly, in GD, you are much more likely to be called a racist (and implicitly called a freeper) if you espouse any support for Israel. I haven't seen anyone banned in GD recently for calling Israel a terrorist state, etc, etc.

My point being, I think you're a bit too much on your high horse here.

[Classical_Liberal]

81. These posters(which are not named) advocate segregation and racism

I assume they are repukes. There is no rule against talking about disrupters, that you don't identify by name.

[sir_captain]

83. Like I said

there are extremists on both sides of the issue

People who advocate racist policies are no better than those who essentiall equate Israel with the Nazis

[Classical_Liberal]

84. Those who call Israel Nazis generally are tombstoned

racist posters who advocate settlements aren't, so long as they support Israel.

[sir_captain]

87. You're being too literal about this

look back at this very thread. People make all sorts of outrageous claims about Israel, and they get away with it because they don't use words like "Nazi" but it's the same thing.

[Classical_Liberal]

88. Your engaging in mind reading.

. I don't have psychic powers and can only go by what I read. Literally there were posters in those threads advocating that all Palestinians were terrorist. Cheering hatred of Arabs. Supporting right winger Sharon. In the other thread there were literally posters advocating segregation. Alerted on, and not banned or deleted.

[sir_captain]

89. No mind reading

saying that I/P is Rwandan-style genocide is just as wrong as saying all Palestinians are terrorists.

I agree that I would not like to see the posts that cheer hatred of Arabs and so on, but I think that if you have a problem with how the mods are handling it, you should take it up in the proper forum, because technically, complaining about it is against the rules, even if you have some merit.

[Classical_Liberal]

93. If you see that, alert on it. I guarentee the poster will be gone

or the post will be deleted. It won't happen with racists in the pro-israel camp.

[Classical_Liberal]

94. I have taken it up with them. Subject is not open for discussion

You brought up the issue of fairness on this board. I only responded.

[Classical_Liberal]

57. Israel is fighting Palestinians who want a homeland on the west bank

not Wahhabist. I guess you think all muslims look alike too.

[gpandas]

73. not a democracy n/t

[Jose Diablo]

108. Who's an anti-Zionist?

How does being against foreign aid make me an anti-Zionist. Besides that, there are racist overtones of being called anti-Zionist.

I have had enough of any criticism of Israel and their policies being labeled with anti-Zionist or lets call it what you mean, anti-Jewish.

Any criticism of Israel can be sure to gather a chorus of people throwing anti this or that generally resulting in an ad homonym attack.

Lets keep the argument where it belongs, what's in it for the USA to give aid to Israel. Not necessarily what's in it for lobbyists favoring Israel, which after all, is a foreign country.

[buddhamama]

44. main reason

the U.S. and/or those in the defense biz get most of that money back from Israel when they purchase weapons and technology.

We sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, fund Egypt...their human rights record are deplorable. But when there is money to be made nothing else matters.

[Loonman]

50. We should stop funding them

Waste of taxpayer money

[tinanator]

59. Its a laundry, and they wash the money in blood

the taxpayers have their funds sent over there, they are sent back to the politicians who sent them and the weapons dealers who own the politicians. Crazy Palestinians, all your fault!

[oc2002]

61. the Israeli loby is very powerfull in Washington.

Thats why.

You would need a loby that is supported heavily for fairness in the middle east to get any reforms enacted.

And that means pulling funding from Israel war machine.

[Classical_Liberal]

66. Combined power of fundy christians and the Israeli Lobby, not

to mention their friends in the defense industry. Let's not forget about the typical American who doesn't know one Arab from another, doesn't realize the Palestinians were made homeless without compensation in 1948 and that doesn't distinguish them from Islamic fundies.

[Classical_Liberal]

69. New Idea. Let's Bribe them instead of cut them off. Aipac can't claim

we're picking on them if we do that. Say, we'll double your aid, but only if you get out of the west bank. It will give them money to relocate the settlers as well.

[CWebster]

67. It is NOT a "centuries long religious war"

Israel was established after the Holocaust to atone for Western guilt by granting a Jewish homeland on land where people innocent of any wrong-doing in the Holocaust, were living.

Zionist claims to god given right to the land, seem to overlook that their same god also condemned the tribes to leave Israel and go into exile and live among the other people of the earth.

http://nonprofitnet.ca/wao/wao.php?show&42

[Toronto Ron]

74. Major fallacy regarding this issue

The Zionist movement began as a secular one, and still is largely secular. That is, "god given right to the land" does not come into play, except for a minority (the settlers in the occupied territories would fall into this minority).

[CWebster]

77. Apologies

I wasn't aware that the state of Israel wasn't linked to Jewish identity.

Again, apologies.

[sir_captain]

80. I assume you're being sarcastic

you realize that one can be a secular jew, right?

[Toronto Ron]

82. Stick your apologies dude

What's with the smug attitude? Are we schoolkids here or are we trying to have a serious discussion?

Anyway: "Jewish identity" does not necessarily imply a strong religious "god given" component.

[sir_captain]

85. Keep on trucking, Ron

don't let him provoke you or you'll somehow end up being called a likudnik

[Toronto Ron]

92. I used to get provoked by such people on this issue...

and then I turned 20 (that was a long time ago; I'm almost double that now).

[CWebster]

95. Okay then

what was the claim for the right of the land again?

[sir_captain]

96. Um, the UN?

[CWebster]

101. just to complete the circle

why was that again?

[sir_captain]

102. Look

since you don't seem to even recognize the right of Israel to exist, there's no point in discussing this further with you

[sir_captain]

75. Most founders of Israel

were secular. Nice try.

[randr]

68. Israel has long served

as the wholesaler of weapons to countries that are on the "no sale" list for American munitions companies. When you see a truck load of children with arm loads of Uzis, it is likely they came through Israili arms dealers.

[Toronto Ron]

79. True to an extent. Possible justification:

Israel doesn't have much else to export, except a bagful of oranges and some diamonds occasionally. No natural resources.

[Loonman]

70. How much, you ask?

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

[Toronto Ron]

76. How much of that gets spent back in the U.S.?

Answer: Just about all of it; that's a condition for the aid.

[The Stranger]

90. Got a link for that?

[Toronto Ron]

106. Here's the first I found with google:

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_02b.html

Excerpt:

Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel. By far the largest share remains with American defense contractors. Peter McPherson, former administrator of the Agency for International Development, estimated that every billion dollars of aid to Israel creates 60,000 to 70,000 jobs in the United States.

The following paragraph puts the aid to Israel in perspective:

Compared to the $2.0 billion yearly military aid to Israel, the U.S. contributes more than $130 billion(!) every year to the defense of Europe and more than $30 billion to the defense of Japan, Korea, and the Far East. Over 300,000 U.S. troops are stationed with NATO and over 30,000 U.S. troops in the Far East. In contrast, not one single U.S. soldier needs to be stationed and put at risk in Israel. U.S. military analysts estimate that the U.S. would have to spend the equivalent of $150 billion a year in the Middle East to maintain a force equivalent to Israel’s.

Hope this helps!

[Moderator]

110. Locking.....

This thread has run its course and many
personal attacks have been removed.


DU Moderator