Berg Incident Seems... Strange

[Selteri]

Is it just me that all the information about the Berg incident seems to be growing more and more convoluted as I read the material that keeps getting added.

1 - He was Jewish and had a Jewish Name - The AQ people hate the Hebrew people as much as America, normally they would have said, "We have an American and a Jew." or something along those lines to claim a double victory.

2 - His family claims they told him he was in US custody, yet the US claims they didn't and did nothing but try to bring him back home.

3 - The group that killed him was awfully pale across the board for how they appeared on the Camera, this isn't much of a detail as the colors they were wearing could have washed thier natural body color off on a oo camera though, but it does seem that the murderer, who's picture shows him being of a darker body tone has awfully pale hands.

While I doubt the US would do such an atrocity directly, it is something I wouldn't put past the administration so that they can claim that the abuses are obviously being justified and the like. There are those that might disagree but we are talkig about an administration that has been accused of letting 9-11 happen, going to war for personal reasons and being uncaring about human rights time and again. One of those incidents by itself is one thing, but when you start to pile the recurrant evidence it starts to make me wonder as to the accuracy of thier claims.

[prodigal_green]

1. the guy on the right

The fellow to the far right, the fidgety one, caught my attention. I've traveled and I taught ESL for several years and have always been able to spot an American at a glance by our posture, and mannerisms. The guy on the right really demonstrates many American traits. Also, he seems really uncomfortable about what is about to happen. I'm not ready to say Americans did this, but that guy was really calling attention to himself.

I agree about the Jewish thing. I believe they made Danny Perle "admit" to being Jewish before executing him (I put admit in quotes because I don't think that being Jewish is something negative). Why wouldn't they have done the same thing to Mr. Berg.

[Selteri]

4. The Man on the right

That's a good point, I forced myself to watch the disgusting video. To be honest, I lost my appetite and stopped far enough into the video to get the point that the way they cut his head off was obviously slow and gruesome torture.

Yet, the thing that bothers me more is that the video wasn't just wrong as the action was both disgusting and inhumane, but the stance, the movements, the references they made was not on par with previous examples of the AQ. I've rewatched the opening half and you're right, the man on the right is definitely showing both discomfort and some very American Mannerisms, something I hadn't noticed. The military attention stance of one of the men on the left also reminded me of the way we train our military to stand. That could be either background or just coincidence.

The number of Coincidences are adding up to the question of hate authenticity when you couple that with the family claims.

PS New news - Berg's Father put up a 'peace is the answer' type of sign last night, yet his daughter removed it this morning, that seems rather strange to do to a mourning father.

[spanone]

21. funny, I thought the guy in the right acted in a more "western" manner

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. He's the one wearing sneakers

In 120 degree heat Iraqis wear sandals. Sneakers would indicate that he's in an air conditioned location and spend most of his time there. I doubt one could wear sneakers like that all day in Iraq if one weren't in air conditioning.

http://abortionissues.com
http://bush.is.hated.com
http://bushblows.com
http://chelsea-clinton.com
http://cheney.is.hated.com
http://dem2004.org
http://demcrats.com
http://democraticissues.com
http://dickandbush.com
http://george-walker-bush.com
http://georgebush04.com
http://georgebushjokes.com
http://humanrightsviolations.com
http://impeachgeorgebush.com
http://mccainforpresident.com
http://politicalinterestgroups.com
http://presidentialscandals.com
http://priminister.com
http://radicalcheerleaders.com
http://religiousright.org
http://republicanchat.com
http://repulican.com
http://swingvoter.com
http://vote4bush.com
http://voteforbush.com
http://w.is.hated.com
http://www.priminister.com
http://www.antigaymarriage.com

[mzmolly]

2. A couple other things people have noted.

4 - The orange prison issue suit ?

5 - The "At Ease" military stance the men had ?

6 - The dispute about having him in US custody ?

[troublemaker]

15. Look at the orange jumpsuit

It is Homemade! It's closer to peach than blaze orange and is made of a very lightweight satin, silk or shiny rayon, nylon... a thin shiny fabric.

[atreides1]

3. To The World The Administration is The US

But the administration represents the US, and as long as the orders they give are followed it is the US committing atrocities, which include killing its own citizens to further an agenda

All you have to do is to look at the US involvement in Central and South America during the 70's and 80's.

[malatesta1137]

5. Plus

the fact that this decapitation came right after the torture scandal, as to distract fools. People who think Americans could not do such a thing to one of their own forget that we can are capable of much, much, worse.

[arcane1]

6. "While I doubt the US would do such an atrocity directly"

it wouldn't be the first time... sadly, I have no such doubts about my country :evilfrown:

[AliceWonderland]

29. As well, what one wants to be true

isn't evidence. Regardless of what happened to Berg -- and the story gets stranger and stranger every day -- doubting that so-and-so would ever do such a thing isn't an argument.

[daa]

7. Shrub will do anything to keep power

he is a very desperate man now calling for desperate measures. WTF is Rusmsfuck doing over there?? And WTF was Berg doing over there?

You have the right to job in Central Park at 3am but is it very bright. He just hops a plane and goes there?? To fix TVs when they don't have fucking electricity????

This does not add up at all, but it does smell.

[bluedeminredstate]

8. I haven't seen the video

and I don't want to seem gruesome, but I want to watch as much as I can stand. Does anyone have a link to the video? I'd like to judge for myself the comments about the killers. If someone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

[physioex]

9. It's terrible....I am a can stomach a lot of things...

But be warned it could alter your mood for awhile. Someone here should get you a link to it.

[Iceburg]

10. Go to http:\\thememoryhole.com and ...

if you don't want to watch the listen to the beheading audio & scene stop at about 4:30 into the clip (that is about 2:44 on the visible time stamp). At ~ 4:30 the dubbed in audio of a scream starts. At 4:40 (and with a time stamp of 13:45 ie. 11 hours later) the beheading of the victim (who I presume to be either a. dead or b. photo trickery) starts about 10 secs later ie. at ~ 4:40.

[Kusala]

13. Someone else mentioned it could be two cameras and

edited together haphazerdly. It's possible, but I'm not going back to watch again to find out.

Oh and if it was two cameras, why the shaky, confusing video right when they pull him down?

[quispquake]

11. Moved by Moderator

...not an editorial..

[Kusala]

12. Calm

did anyone else think it odd Nick Berg seemed so calm? I've seen other videos of prisoners in Iraq(such as the trucker that escaped) and they are all wide-eyed and the eyes dart around the room.

I actually wondered if he was sedated!

[liveoaktx]

14. I wondered that too-he seemed entirely too calm, as if he

had no idea that a beheading was coming and wasn't worried about his captors, either.

[troublemaker]

17. It is said that Perle declined sedation before he was killed.

[EDT]

18. A friend of mine who was in Saudi in the 80's said they drugged prisoners

who were brought out to have limbs chopped off, and the one time he saw a beheading. He said the police actually went around looking for foreigners on Fridays, and would bring you to the square where they adminsistered corporal punishment, so foreigners could see it happening. The guy who got his head chopped off was very dazed according to him, and he said he made a point of not being out and about Friday mornings after that.

[TrogL]

16. There are plenty of white-skinned Arabs

of all sorts of body types and I'll just bet some of them fidget just like regular people.

The racism shown lately on this board disgusts me.

[Tansy_Gold]

20. The racism disgusts me, too, Trog, and so does the

unwillingness of certain tinfoil hatters to even address the other issues that have REPEATEDLY been debunked on this tragedy, i.e. the "orange prison jumpsuit," the body armor/ammo vests, the sneakers (now being replaced by a "WalMartish" white resin patio chair!).

What also disgusts me is the lack of critical thinking on the part of some of these 'hatters. many of them are accusing the same CIA that they would have been praising as going after the bushies for the outing of Valerie Plame. Or are they now saying that since the CIA offed Berg, Valerie Plame is a stooge and Joe Wilson a mole????

And I just about lose my temper and throw things at the computer when I read the touting of unknown, uncredentialed "doctors" from hate sites (Raul Castro Guevara from voz de Aztlan) as trustworthy experts while anyone here on DU with a minimum of actual real-life experience is dismissed as a potential liar. Someone wrote that the death didn't "seem real" to her/him. I asked how many real beheadings that poster had witnessed, but I got no response.

My goddess, have they all lost their minds? Have they become freepers who believe anything that fits their preconceptions, their prejudices? When two of them describe very different impressions of Berg's mobility or lack thereof during the murder, do they not consider that they have made subjective interpretations and therefore one of them (and maybe both) could be WRONG?

Geez louise, folks, there are lots of things to be suspicious about, and yes, maybe the booshies had something to do with Berg's murder. But can we please look at realistic possibilities, and quit going over the same tired, ridiculous, repeatedly debunked nonsense? Can we present some evidence -- other than subjective interpretations of a grainy amateur video, made by amateur sleuths who "feel" it isn't quite right, who have no experience in linguistics, who have no experience in forensics (beyond too many hours in front of the tv).

For whatever it's worth, Galileo projected the parabolic arc of blood spurting from a severed carotid back in the early 17th century. Artist Artemisia Gentileschi revised her painting of "Judith Beheading Holofernes" to show the arc in later paintings that is missing from earlier ones. It's not like this is news.

[truebrit71]

26. Nope I tend to believe me eyes....

As for your "racist" comment I think you need to ratchet down your "sensitivity metre" a coupla notches...Nobody said anything racist...

[Torgo4]

47. Calm Down Wild Man!

With all of the contract Mercs running around in Iraq, no US Government element needs to be "directly" involved. If you don't think Cheney/Rummy have their own, "Preatorian Guard," especially with a spook like Gen. Schoomaker (that Rummy yanked out of retirement) in charge, you are a naive little waif indeed. Don't forget Intel/Prisoner Interrogator goofball Boykin and his "Christian Jihad" crap!

I personally think Bush will lose because the CIA is going to keep leaking stuff to payback Rove/Cheney for Plame.

[AZCat]

48. FWIW, it's not a parabola- it's an ellipse

The path an object takes is not a parabola, it's an ellipse. It APPEARS to be parabolic, but the object is actually in an 'orbit' around the center of mass of the earth- an elliptical path.

In this case, the droplets of blood are the objects.

Just a little nugget of info that I thought is interesting.

[nomatrix]

24. Your disgust,

disgust me.

You are standing up for these murders? Just regular people.

Just waiting for your thread on "racist conspiracy theory".

See 9/11 topic thread if you have any questions.

[leftofthedial]

27. can you show me a picture with 5 white-skinned Arabs

standing side by side

or even a group shot of an Arab crowd that includes 5 white-skinned Arabs.

Noting national and/or regional mannerisms is not racism. Careful about your aspersions. I believe many Italians gesture extravagantly with their hands while talking. Is that racism? It may or may not be accurate, but is it racism?

[progressivebydesign]

40. It's not racism.

The people that the US is blaming this on ARE darker skinned people. The US has named at least one already.. and his photos show a very dark skinned man of Middle Eastern descent. It's not racism.. I can tell, with shocking accuracy, if people on the street are non-Americans.. The body language, the clothing, the skin tone, the haircuts, the sunglasses, etc.. the gestures.. it doesn't matter if they are blonde/blue eyed people from England.. I can always tell. Some of us have a very keen sense of other people. The guys in the video stood western. It's a nuance. With all the questions swirling around.. like how a guy who supposedly has a fairly recent complete leg prosthetic is squatting down, etc... does beg for questions as to their real identity.

[Selteri]

51. It is not Racist

It is not racist to ask questions on making comparisons to what is seen vs what should be there.

IE The man who the main murderer claimed to be is of a dark skinned Arabic descent. I've met Arabs who have blue eyes and blond hair but still have a light skin tone, they're 100% middle eastern, that doesn't mean they are common.

It also doesn't mean anyone is being a racist when they point out that the man who the murderer claimed to be has dark skin in all of his photos, to the point where his skin tone should be identifiable by looking at his hands.

The same would be viable for saying that none of the terrorists looked like they were black because I didn't see any dark skinned hands. What I stated is that two sets of those hands were whiter than Berg, who from his photos was a moderately fair skinned man. This doesn't mean much of anything since 1 - They have white people in Al-queda, 2 - as you said there are many very fair skinned Arabic people, just as there are dark skinned Europeans.

There are still tendencies.

Calling someone a racist for pointing out a factor that is generally common and mentioning physical or gestural commonalities is only being ignorant and reactionary.

Please, let us all keep this thread civil. The only thing I did in starting this thread was state that there were peculiarities that I would have liked answered that had not been.

I question things, both what democrats and republicans say, which side I agree with often is up to the point of view, though the present republican statements of philosophy are so completely divergent from my own ideals that I find very little to agree with them on.

My biggest problem is that like these slung pieces of mud on the use of the word Racist are just as bad as throwing out the words Nazi, Traitor and Unpatriotic. To slam people for the ideas they state is immature but your right, just as it is my right, and something suggested by more than one of the founding fathers, to question anything I want to for whatever reason I want, regardless of someone wants to call it.

When we stop questioning that which is spoon fed to us is when someone can most easily slip the poison into our food. Consider this when you listen to any media that only quotes another news source instead of doing it's own work. Personally I suggest reading multiple sources for a clearer perspective.

[truth2power]

53. I will not stop questioning.

"When we stop questioning that which is spoon fed to us is when someone can most easily slip the poison into our food."

You're right, Selteri. And I can't understand why there is so much desire to shut down any questioning of the Berg incident. Forget the lawn chair. There is a boatload of other questions that haven't been answered.

This stinks to high heaven!

[goodhue]

19. Regarding observation Number 2

Berg was detained. The only dispute is who detained him and whose custody he was in for 13 days. The FBI acknowledges they questioned him three times while he was detained in Iraq. They also questioned his parents, who were told that he was okay in that he was in US custody.

But the real startling fact here is that the parents sued Rummy on April 5 regarding Nick's detention, and on April 6 he was "released."

[Tansy_Gold]

22. Sorry, goodhue, but that's not important

We gotta focus on that orange jumpsuit, y'know, and that the guys had really light hands, and they seemed too jumpy to be Muslims, and they had plastic chairs just like the one Lynndie England had in Abu Ghraib and the walls are painted the exact same color from the exact same bucket mixed at the exact same Home Depot. . . .(ok, sarcasm off now)

WAKE UP, FOLKS! THIS IS THE KINDA STUFF YOU OUGHTA BE TALKING ABOUT,
NOT THE FUCKING PLASTIC CHAIR!

[goodhue]

23. e-mails to Bergs re detention

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=American%20Beheaded%20E%20mail

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER

Thursday, May 13, 2004 · Last updated 3:19 p.m. PT

E-mails from U.S. consulate to Bergs

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Text of e-mails from Beth A. Payne, a U.S. consular officer in Baghdad, to members of the family of Nicholas Berg. Copies of the e-mails were provided to The Associated Press by the Berg family.

March 31, 2004, 3:16 p.m.

I've been trying to return your wife's call, but the line is busy. I attempted to locate your son without success. If I can locate him, I will ask him to call so you know his situation.

April 1, 1:26 a.m. (To Michael Berg, Berg's father)

I have confirmed that your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military in Mosul. He is safe. He was picked up approximately one week ago. We will try to obtain additional information regarding his detention and a contact person you can communicate with directly.

April 1, 5:23 a.m. (To Suzanne Berg, Berg's mother)

I have been able to confirm that your son is being detained by the U.S. military. I am attempting to identify a person with the U.S. military or FBI here in Iraq who you can contact directly with your questions.

April 2, 1:25 p.m.

I have been trying to identify a local contact here, but given the security situation in Iraq it is not easy. I will continue to try.

[Padraig18]

25. Oh, sweet Jesus!

We wonder why FR makes fun of us, and yet this is the umpptenth post like this TODAY!

Did it ever occur to you tinfoil hat crowd that it may be just EXACTLY what it's purported to be? George Bush does not sneak into your house and unscrew the refigerator light bulb at night, either! He is NOT all powerful and all knowing!

Is there NOTHING in this world that is just EXACTLY as it seems to be, to you people? :wtf:

:grr::nuke:

[truebrit71]

28. Not when there are too many inconsistencies no...

Time-stamp keeps jumping
Not enough blood
Why cover your face if you just identified yourself?
"Western" mannerisms
Al-Zarqawi is either a) dead or b) an amputee something the speaker in the video CLEARLY isn't
Not speaking with the correct accent
Speaking in a way that indicates that Arabic is NOT your native tongue
Speaking Russian
US Spokesperson says Berg was NEVER in US custody, but Berg's family produces e-mails from the US Cinsualr Offical in Mosul confirming that Nick WAS in US custody

Sorry mate, but all of this just doesn't add up....

[Padraig18]

31. Oh, horseshit!

What the fuck ever! :tinfoilhat:

[AliceWonderland]

32. Wow, that's quite a powerful comeback

I'm convinced.

[nomatrix]

35. Somehow the comback doesn't fit

tagline about untruths.

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Somethings are so fucking idiotic...

that they get the comeback they deserve! :wtf::tinfoilhat:

[AliceWonderland]

43. Ah! I assume you're referring to

truebrit's list of questions? Care to elaborate beyond "fucking idiotic"? The most implausible aspects of the Berg narrative, to me, involve the timeline of events. That seems the crux of the issue. Can you explain what is "fucking idiotic" about the issue of the emails, the Berg family statements, and Berg's time/place of custody? Any thoughts on the alleged Moussaoui-Berg connection? If certain aspects of the debate don't impress you, it doesn't mean there aren't legitimate questions to be asked. Anything substantial to contribute to the discussion beyond "fucking idiotic"?

[truebrit71]

45. Yet another stunning, concise and witty reponse from one of the

omni-present DU Ostriches...

Oh, and "fucking idiotic"..as another Ostrich put it ...what prose, what wit, what je ne sais quoi...What can I say? It is like poetry to see such well-thought out and eloquent responses to a post...

Moran

[KAZ]

33. Yeah, there are some of us who are willing to slam...

...on their breaks because of some freepers drool. It's a freekin BBS, what do you think is supposed to happen. Some of the tinfoil turns out right, some doesn't, but you sound like everyone should just shut-up if it's a bit too far for you?

[Cuban_Liberal]

34. The only thing stranger than the video...

... is the unsurprising emergence of the 'conspiracy-nut wing' of the Democratic Party, trying to make this video into anything and everything possible, rather than accept it for what it obviously is.

:tinfoilhat: time...

[KAZ]

36. Are you paying attention to anything?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1595230#1595442

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. Yes I am.

That thread proves jack SHIT! :tinfoilhat:

[ibegurpard]

50. On the contrary

It proves that there are enough legitimate questions about the incident to warrant it moving from the arena of the "farleftisttinfoilconspiracytheorymongers." to a venue of mainstream public discussion. Which causes me to question the motivations behind your vociferous objections to discussion of this subject.

[northofdenali]

37. Really weird stuff. The Seattle PI has this from AP:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=Iraq%20Berg

<snip>
"BAGHDAD, Iraq -- An American who was beheaded by militants had told friends he was arrested by Iraqi police in Mosul because he had an Israeli stamp in his passport."

<snip>
"In Mosul, police chief Maj. Gen. Mohammed Khair al-Barhawi insisted his department had never arrested Berg and said he had no knowledge of the case.

"The Iraqi police never arrested the slain American," al-Barhawi told reporters. "Take it from me ... that such reports are baseless."

<snip>
"Berg, who had three or four bags, then walked out the door, said the receptionist, who declined to give his name.

A porter put his luggage on a pushcart and the two walked toward busy Saadoun Street. But the U.S. Army had blocked off the street, and a soldier motioned for them to turn around.

"I dumped the bags on the ground and turned back," the porter said. Berg, he added, "picked up the bags and started walking."

I REALLY don't like the smell of this. I don't necessarily believe that this was a CIA/DIA organized assassination, but I definitely think it's trying to be a MAJOR cover-up-in-progress.

[DU GrovelBot]

38. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v2.0
==================
 
The time now is 8:29:25PM EDT, Thursday, May 13, 2004.
 
There are exactly...
3 days,
3 hours,
30 minutes, and
35 seconds left in our fund drive.
 
This website could not survive without your generosity. Member donations 
pay for more than 84% of the Democratic Underground budget. Don't let
GrovelBot become the next victim of the Bush economy. Bzzzt.
 
Please take a moment to donate to DU right now. Thank you for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[Alex146]

39. I would put nothing past the CIA

nothing at all.

[nomatrix]

44. Way too many contradictions

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=721&e=7&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_berg

-snip-

"Michael Berg said his son refused a U.S. offer in early April to board an outbound charter jet because he believed travel to the airport was too dangerous. American soldiers refer to the airport highway as "RPG Alley" because of frequent attacks by insurgents firing rocket-propelled grenades"

-snip-

"During his time in Iraq, he struggled with the Arabic language and worked at night on a tower in Abu Ghraib, a site of repeated attacks on U.S. convoys and the location of the notorious prison where U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi inmates."

Worked at night on a tower? WTF? Afraid of the street, but a great target at night with a flashlight maybe, on a tower?

-snip-

"During a briefing Wednesday, Senor confirmed that Berg had registered with the U.S. Consulate in Baghdad but insisted he "was not a U.S. government employee, he has no affiliation with the coalition and to our knowledge he has no affiliation with any Coalition Provisional Authority contractor."
He also stated that Berg "was at no time under the jurisdiction or detention of coalition forces."
However, in a Jan. 18 e-mail, Berg said his company had been announced as an approved subcontractor for a broadcast consortium awarded a contract for the U.S.-controlled Iraqi Media Network.
"Practically, this means we should be involved with quite a bit of tower work as part of the reconstruction, repair and new construction of the Iraqi Media Network," he wrote, referring to the network as "something like NPR in the U.S."

"It was unclear whether the contract was revoked."

This is the only time I've seen him associated with the U.S. controlled Iraqi Media Network.

[Fuzz]

46. There was a picture that was supposed to be of Berg's body on the bridge

that was posted on another web site. I don't know it it was it or not, but the one that they claimed was his body when it was found on the bridge was not wearing the orange jumpsuit. Anyone have confirmation of this and if so, why would they change him after he was dead? Unless it was just ripped off of him afterward and those clothes where underneath.

[BGrier]

49. Why Was Berg In An Orange Jump Suit?

Isn't that how Americans dress their prisoners?

[Selteri]

52. They claimed it was to represent the prisoners

And they're not hard to get a hold of since they sell similar jumpsuits in hunting stores and for other things requiring high visibility.

While it is a curiosity I find other questions of disagreements and these new revelations that keep getting piled up that only make me ask more questions.

Such as the new reason for why he'd been detained.