GREENS...Is the ultimate goal to push the dems further to the left??

[leftyandproud]

My question to the greens is...What is the ultimate goal of the party? Where is it going? I've been talking to some repukes at school who plan on voting libertarian next election because they think Bush is a "big spender" and has not been pushing forward a good agenda. He has compromised with the dems on too many things in their eyes (drug benefit, education, farm subsidies, etc)...They openly acknowledge that a libertarian will NEVER win the White House, but that isn't their goal in voting for one. They want to make the GOP take notice, and eventually push the repukes further to the right (if you can believe it). Point is...if the libertarians start taking the votes of conservatives and knocking out the base, the party leadership will take notice, and start pushing an even more radical agenda. (VERY SCARY when you think about it)

This got me thinking...Is THIS what the greens are doing?? Are they trying to push the democrats back to their base?...back to the left? If so, I MUST applaud them. Even if we must put up with another 4 years of hell under Dumbya, I think it will be worth it if we can make a fundamental shift in the two party system...turning OUR party back into a REAL opposition party...one that doesn't give an inch on right wing initiatives or programs. I think the overall goal should be to push the dems further to the left...and I think 90% of greens would like to see this happen. They would happily vote democrat if we could get a candidate to stand on principle and not pander to special interests or so-called 'moderates'. If we could get a national candidate to stand on principle, the votes WILL be there. If just 5% of democrats get pissed off at the lack of backbone at the DLC/DNC and decide to vote green next election, you bet your ass that it will send a massive wakeup call to the party leadership. Yes...We will have to deal with another 4 years of hell under Bush, but at least our party will present REAL alternative the Repukes in 08'...a stark contrast...pushing a REAL agenda--NO COMPROMISES. This is possible, and probable in my view.

This will have an effect our party's leadership. They WILL take notice and WILL stand behind their base, permanently.

Any thoughts?

[Allah Akbar]

1. Nader said he probably wouldn't think about running

if the Democrats ran someone like Kucinich.

Sounds like you are reading it right to me.

[Eloriel]

2. No, not for hard-core Greens

Hard-core Greens see that the truth of the matter is that we basically have a one party system with two slightly different flavors. I'm really not up to trying to do a full explanation tonight (and I might not be the best one to do it anyway). But rest assured, they DO want to build the Green Party into a viable 3rd Party, and in fact open it up to more than just 3 parties.

Eloriel

[lcordero]

3. That's why I'll go with Kucinich, win or lose.

I think that he can make the Democratic Party a TRUE Opposition Party again.

[rhite5]

4. 2004 is NOT the year

to stand on idealogically pure principles!

We HAVE to get Bush&Co out. Four more years and none of us will have a vote at all.

After that, we can look at how to get more voices at the table which is badly needed.

[leftyandproud]

6. why not now?

If we don't take a stand now, when will we? Answer = NEVER!!!
Folks, Dubya is NOT the worst the Republicans have to offer! We will ALWAYS hate their nominees...In 2008, they could nominate Jeb Bush...Tom Delay...Bill Frist...I got news for ya...THEY ALL SUCK!!!;) Will you stand on principle then?...or will you cave and be happy hitting the wall at only 40mph rather than 90? It's time to stop compromising and bring the party back to it's roots. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. If the candidate hasn't EARNED your vote...he doesn't deserve it.

[Ein]

9. 1992 was NOT the year either

I'm a 19 y/o registered Green, and that is exactly what I would like to see... a progressive Democratic party! I don't care if the party in power is Green or Dem, as long as it is truely left.

edit: as of 1996, you expect a third party or prog. dem to even touch an incumbent? nah. 2000, you prolly know the story. I guess its never time for a progressive democrat.

[Mairead]

12. There will never be a better time

than today. If we can't do it today, then we can't do it, because the problem will always be The End Of Civilisation As We Know It. They're not going to start putting up candidates who are bunny rabbits just so we can relax and start doing internal reorganisation. It's always going to be this bad or worse.

So if we're going to do it, we must do it now.

[Armstead]

20. I love that

>>>They're not going to start putting up candidates who are bunny rabbits just so we can relax and start doing internal reorganisation.<<

Great line and so true.

[RapidCreek]

17. Sure it is....

Of course we will have a vote....and if we don't I suspect we shall have riots in the streets and Kenny Boy Lays hanging from lamp posts in front of the White House.

Every year is the right year to stand on ideologically pure principles. You remind me of the guy who never fixed the hole in his roof. When the sun was out he didn't think the time was right to fix it because it wasn't leaking. When it was raining, he didn't think it the time was right because the weather was nasty.

RC

[bowler_4_columbine]

5. I get your point about pushing the party back to their base...

but I refuse to applaud anyone who gives us four more years of Dumbya! I'll applaud the Greens the day they help us beat the Republicans. If they really want to bring the Democratic Party back to the left, run Nader in the Democratic primary. If his ideas are any good, maybe he'll get votes and win the nomination. What a novel concept!! Until then I'll just file the Greens under the "Cutting off my nose to spite my face" category of the "I LIKE shooting myself in the foot, it feels GOOD!" department


:kick: Greens

[jonnyblitz]

15. "if his (Nader's) ideas are any good?! LMFAO

that's the problem with YOU DEMS. His ideas ARE good and the Green party platform SHOULD be the DEM party platform if the DEMS actually represented who they claimed to...

[Terwilliger]

24. so you DON'T like Michael Moore then

Moore would never advocate anything you suggest above

[Bandit]

27. In your mind we should have ONLY two parties ~ No more no less.

I think it is a bit more democratic if we have a wider choice. Granted it could make things sticky at times but a Democracy is just that. I say the more the merrier.

[silverweb]

7. As I've stated here before...

...I switched to the Green Party only a year or so ago because I wanted to send a message to the DNC/DLC that they're losing their liberal base.

I believe without reservation in the GPCA platform - http://www.cagreens.org/platform - and will strive to see more Greens elected at the local and state level.

That being said, I will never allow my vote to enable the GOP by splitting the moderate-to-left voter base. The Democrats and the Greens need to start working together more on the principles we hold in common and quit working against each other. My personal commitment is to aid that cooperative process and get the BFEE and the radical right out of the national arena!

:bounce:

[leftyandproud]

10. the way I see it

The uncommitted 'moderate' voters we lose by standing for a truly progressive platform will be more than made up for by the greens and other lefties who come back into the fold. A lot of apathetic lefties will be happy to vote for the dems as soon as they start standing on principle...and the 'centrist' voters we lose never really belonged in our ranks to begin with.

[Mairead]

14. The problem is that Dr Dean

would not turn things around if he were to win. We need things turned around. We cannot bear to have another Clinton, smiling and playing the sax while he shreds the safety net, gives the corporations carte blanche to send our jobs to mexico, signs off on the WTO so that our national soverignty is overridden by an anonymous 3-person panel who decides things in secret, and signs of on a massive increase in wiretapping authority etc.

We have no margin left. No more room to play with. We're already on the edge. The 'patriot' act proves that. We are out of time.

We need someone committed to turning things completely around, turning the nation a full 180. Dr Dean is not that someone.

[Tinoire]

8. Not just the Greens, Dems too - which is why

this Dem's for Kucinich!

A candidate all progressives can get behind.

[Mairead]

11. I'm a Green, and once asked other Greens

whether they were in it for the results or for the party. Almost all said the results. Like me, they don't care about the label, they care about the bread and roses. No bread and roses? No support.

Which is why I'm happy to support Dennis Kucinich today, but did not support him two years ago--and told him so. He, alone of all the candidates, is committed to the results I want. So I support him, and it's perfectly okay that he's a Dem and not a Green.

[Tinoire]

19. Kucinich makes it easy for me

not to reconsider my loyalty to the Democratic Party.

My continued loyalty depends on our Party reflecting my principles more than those of the corporations and industry otherwise it will lose me to the Green Party.

Kucinich is the Democratic Party's chance to win the Presidency because he has the People's support and can draw in the votes of disillusioned past non-voters and all sorts of Progressives who jumped ship. Oh but at what a price to the DLC dominated Party that has co-habitated with the Republicans... which is why I'm not holding my breath and cringe everytime Kucinich gets on a plane.

If anything stops Kucinich, it will be the right-loving machinery- NOT the people.

[robcon]

13. I think the Greens are going about it incorrectly

The Greens should be far more interested in getting Senators than the president. With the tightness of the Dem/Repug balance, just one or two Greens might hold the balance of power in the Senate.

I see zero interest in this from the Green party, however. They seem to be much more interested in the big, unattainable prize of the presidency (and the resulting embarassing, laughable results.)

[Iverson]

16. bad science

Establish the result before collecting the data.

[shirlden]

18. YEP !!!

I joined the Ohio Greens to push the Dems back to their base. I have no love for Nader, but I do for Mother Nature. My dream is to see a Demo party that the Greens can once again join. I am supporting Dennis for now for the same reason. Let's go left, folks. All that being said.....I will fight tooth and nail for the Dem nominee. Let me qualify that....if Holy Joe is nominated, I will not fight for him, but will channel my resources towards congress and local Dems.

:kick:

[Le Taz Hot]

21. A response

First, pushing the Democrats back to its basic, liberal/progressive ideals is something that most Democrats and (I believe) all Greens have in common. Instead of carrying on the enmity between Dems and Greens, I believe we CAN work together.

I VEHEMENTLY disagree with this statement:
Even if we must put up with another 4 years of hell under Dumbya, I think it will be worth it if we can make a fundamental shift in the two party system...turning OUR party back into a REAL opposition party

First, it won't be 4 more years of hell -- it will be 12 more. Jeb is already being groomed (as was "W") and Jeb is smarter. Meaner, but smarter AND he's got the GOP Big Boys' backing. Keep in mind the center/right shift of the Democratic Party did not happen overnight. It started in the early '80's with Carter's removal from office. The "Powers-that-be" (read, DLC) decided to adopt the GOP's "wisdom" that liberal = BAD! They happened to luck out in '92 and '96 with Clinton as Clinton managed to carry the left AND the center, largely through his charisma as he certainly was NOT a liberal candidate/president.

The Democratic party DESPERATELY needs to shift back to the left and most of the rank-and-file DESPERATELY want it to do so which explains the unexpected popularity of the Dean and Kucinich campaigns. It also explains the lackluster showing of the DLC's candidates. What I'm trying to say here is that policy shift takes more than a year or two -- it takes more like 10-20 years. In the meantime, I feel it is vital that we NOT write off America to the Republicans. Another 13-1/2 years of Republican rule will see the end of our Constitution and the end of our Democracy as we know it. It's already happening.

[mdmc]

22. I'm not a Green, but

I'll answer.
The goal is to offer a different posistion than the GOP or the conservative Democrats.
Think Dennis Kucincih and Al Sharpton, only instead of being reduced to third tier status, they are the nominee.
The goal is a
fair trade
anti death penalty
anti drug war
pro environment
pro gun control
campaign.

The goal is to kill the democratic party, either by taking over their progressive base, or by the democrats joining the GOP to curb a right wing conservative movement.

[Dr Fate]

23. No- that is done from within the party.

n/t

[blindpig]

25. if it isn't, it should be

A stickey wicket indeed.
On the one hand, 4 more yrs of this gang is intolerable for myriad reasons. On the other, another DLC regime will only slow this planet's descent into the abyss.
I believe that the only way to effect a left/green agenda in this country is to takeover/coopt the Democratic party. The structures of our system prevents any realistic 3rd party takeover at the ballot box. These structures are:
1] the electoral college {an essentially undemocratic effort to combat the "tyranny of the majority" in an era when state sovreignity(sp) meant more than it does now.
2]the senate {another tyranny of the majority arguement; originally not even voted on by the "masses".
3]"winner take all, single member districts in the House.
there's simply not enough of us, if we wait until the majority turns green most vertebrates will be extinct!
Kucinich in 04'

[goobergunch]

26. If it is, they have an odd way of showing it

Running candidates against Wellstone and Boxer isn't exactly how you move the party to the left.