How do we balance contempt for these soldiers against their superiors?

[bigtree]

I watched the attorneys for some of the accused abusers and they claimed that these soldiers were ordered to commit these acts. Fine. I wouldn't defend them on that. What they did went beyond my moral compass. I don't hold them blameless just because they were ordered.

I do see one redeeming factor in their defense, however. Their squealing allows us to strike higher up the chain of command. In that scenario, I would seek to bolster the soldiers testimony with some kind of support for their dilemma of being under the yoke of sadistic superiors. I think their testimony against the leaders of that prison and the interrogators would be worth some backing off of these lower ranking, accused abusers if they sing.

Me Book

[izzie]

1. If they did it they are guilty of it but so are the order givers.

How far did it go up with Cally?(sp?) I guess I will have to look that up. I am sure he did not serve long. For some reason if you kill people from other countries it seem to be not so bad.

[Political_Junkie]

3. I think Calley was given ten years

but he only served three. You're right also about the killing of people from other countries. If these roughly 200 people he shot in the ditch like fish in a barrel had been Americans you can bet your a$$ he would have got the death penalty.

[Ready4Change]

2. Following orders? Fine. Imprison their superiors TOO.

This isn't an either/or situation. Everyone up and connected to the line who either followed orders to abuse prisoners, issued those orders, or knew what was going on and did nothing, needs to be prosecuted. If the line extends to the POTUS, his cabinet, High Pentagon officials, etc... so be it.

This abuse illegitimizes any action the USA takes involving Arabic nations, and the whole Middle East. Until it is rigorously and unquestioningly prosecuted to the fullest extent we shall not make any more progress. The name USA is mud in international circles now.

Normally I object to the phrase "heads must roll," as it implies a scapegoat must be sacrificed. In this case there are clearly heads that DESERVE to roll. Start swinging the axes.

[iamjoy]

4. That Dog Won't Hunt

These soldiers were either
a) ordered to do it
b) supervision was so lax that the soldiers could get away with it.

As for the former - Yeah, the Nazis at Nuremberg tried to say they were just following orders.

On the whole, though, I blame the military leaders more than the individual soldiers. I could go into my reasoning, but don't want to sound too much like I sympathize with the soldiers who perpetrated the torture. They should face courts martial and possibly dishonorable discharge. But Leavneworth? I don't know.

In any case, the majority of the responsibility should be with the leadership.

[bigtree]

5. I'm thinking of the slippery system of encouraging informants

The soldiers should get canned and possibly incarcerated, but I would be more interested in having their testimony against the superiors than just slapping all of their stories about orders down and having their stories discredited by opposition to them personally. Carrot and stick deal to get the higher ups who obviously made abuse the standard policy of the prisons.

I think the Pentagon, the White House and their apologists would love to see the soldiers demonized so as to destroy their credibility in accusing higher ups of coersion.

[Trajan]

6. When male prisoners are forced to commit sexual acts against their will ..

then a criminal act has occurred ... and someone had perpetrated tha criminal act ...

Whomever is in charge that promotes policies that lead directly those criminal acts is also committing a criminal act ...

Blame BOTH the soldier who breaks the law AND the Generals who commands those soldiers to commit such acts: EVERYONE knows forced sexuality crosses the lines of decency and legality ...

NO one should get a free pass on this ...

[iamjoy]

7. Exactly

It isn't an either/or.
I still blame the leaders more.

[bigtree]

8. You aren't hearing anything from me other than a desire to avoid

trashing these soldiers so much that their testimony carries no weight. That would seem to play into the Pentagon's hands as they would discredit these soldiers and protect the superiors, most of whom are known by the military but not yet shared with the rest of us.

Watch the actions of the Pentagon. Why should we trust them as they go out of their way to trash the lower level soldiers and are mum about how high up the chain we should go in assigning blame.

Why should we stand by and let these officials use these lower ranking soldiers as scapegoats? Prosecute them, but do it with a concerned prosecutor's mentality for getting maximun information out of them and keeping their credibility intact to drive their accusations home.

Who doubts that they were ordered to do these things? Who would then say that a lower level, part-time, inexperienced soldier, miles from the U.S., holds the most responsibility for these acts? There should be proportionate punishment and accountability. I blame the system that let these acts occur without rebuke until they were exposed. That authority goes all the way to the Pentagon, and the responsibility goes even further.