Oldtimers. Did you think it would be this way 30 years ago?

[Armstead]

For some reason the nightmarish quality of the current times sunk in, and brought back memories of those earlier nightmarish periods like the Vietnam War. Thinking of the anger that tore the nation apart back then, and the national shame that it unleashed.

It feels like history repeating itself, but this seems worse. Much more compacted and intense. And the stakes seem so much higher. And power in Americas seems to have gone askew.

I was trying to recollect what I thought the future would be like in the 1970's. Did I envision it getting this bad or did I fear worse? Or was I more optimistic and thought things would get better?

How would I have felt if I'd gone into a Rip vanWinkle nap back then and awakened today? Would I be shocked and appalled, or relieved that it wasn't worse?

I don't have any answers. I guess the short answer is that it would probably depend on the day. I'll have to think it through some more.

But do you oldsters think about this? Did you think things would be like this?

[The Traveler]

1. We are on the cusp

of tyranny. Democracy here is failing ... because too many people are swooning, falling under the spell of the false security provided by tyrants. The temperature rises as more eyes are forced open. The outcome is not certain, which means it is not hopeless ... but this is definitely a struggle for the future and soul of this nation. Shall we remain a free people? Only if we choose to remain free, and free thinking.

[WillyT]

2. For Me It Starts With The Fall Of The Berlin Wall !!!

After livin the 'duck and cover' lifestyle for so many years, I thought that humanity had finally wised up. That we might actually get to a peaceful and prosperous place for all of humanity.

Course... I was a lot younger then, and a lot more naive.

But this shit now??? I still can't believe what I'm hearing and seeing!

Fuck...

[Eye and Monkey]

9. Similar.

[shraby]

10. For me it started

with the assassination of John Kennedy. It's been all downhill from there. I haven't trusted the government since then. There has been a persistent undercurrent in the government that seems to be working against "we the people" mostly from the Republican party. The Nixon presidency (Watergate), the Reagan presidency (Iran/Contra) and now the Bush presidency (Beyond Belief). :scared: :scared:

[rebellious woman]

18. Totally agree, America lost it's innocence that day, and

it never recovered from the wounds.

[cmd]

24. That's when it started for me

I think that each generation has a defining moment when innocence is lost. Not to trivialize Watergate, or Iran/Contra, or 9/11; I just wasn't as devastated as I was when JFK died.

[chelsea0011]

32. Assassination of Bobby Kennedy ended it

He was the true progressive from the clan. He brought a sense of hope to millions of Americans. It has never been the same since.

[izzie]

16. Well same here. And in fact Clinton seemed good because he had

not wanted to go to Vietnam and fought it. I figured he would never get us into a war. I am really shocked we are in the place we are in. I also take some blame. I recall the right wing Christians saying they were going to take over this country and would start at the school boards. I thought it was all crazy, so did not think it was important at all.I started to wake up when I lived in Alaska and the Southern Christians came in and really took over that state. I mean I was in a business where their were people who would pray to JC to make money for them that day. Preachers that came to classes because they wanted to fight what was said. It started to hit home we had better start to worry. That war was in their sights big time is another shock.

[Armstead]

51. That's kind of how I feel

"(Berlin Wall fell.) After livin the 'duck and cover' lifestyle for so many years, I thought that humanity had finally wised up. That we might actually get to a peaceful and prosperous place for all of humanity. Course... I was a lot younger then, and a lot more naive.But this shit now??? I still can't believe what I'm hearing and seeing!"

For a little while it looked like we were evolving. But then we took many steps backward on the evolutionary scale.

[NMDemDist2]

3. no i didn't

We always swore when we were the "grown ups" (edit to add in the 70's)and ran and the country that children wouldn't go to bed hungry, that wars would be forgotten or at least only to save freedoms

we swore we'd take care of our own and people would be judged on their character not the color of their skin. we swore educational opportunities would be available to all. we swore that the corporations would work for the people not the other way around

i am so sick and sad and scared for what my country has become. we have lost the ability to listen honestly to both sides and find a fair middle ground that all could live with (not love mind you, but tolerate)

the secret to democracy is that it works slowly so that the negotiations for the needs of both sides are weighed and balanced against the needs of the whole.

no i didn't think it would be like this at all :cry:

[Elwood P Dowd]

4. We have become a corporate oligarchy since Vietnam.

The influence of ordinary citizens - union members, teachers, workers, and students - no longer exists. The country now has a new Golden Rule: Those who have the gold make the rules.

[suzijane]

65. You're so right.

I believed for a few hours this year that we ordinary citizens might have a chance to "take back our country." Too bad about Dean. He believed it, too.

[pocoloco]

5. Those of us who read Orwell in our youth thought 1984 would be

the year. Looks like our reprieve is over!

[NMDemDist2]

8. ahh the books of hope in those days

Stranger in a Strange Land, the Harrod Experiment, Alvin Toffler's Third Wave

we dreamed of Utopia and ended up in 1984

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. I don't remember what I thought back then,

but except for knowing that the Iraq invasion would turn into a horrible mess, I've been terrible at predicting the future.

[charlie]

7. Gawd no

As bad as it was back then, Birchers and holy-roller zealots were widely regarded as jokes. Now they're widespread, mainstream, and in charge. Who could've imagined that happening?

[Armstead]

52. Yep

The liberal mainstream has become "the fringe" and the rabid fringe right has become the mainstream.

Yuch.

[Newsjock]

11. Once we got past "The Day After," no

I lived in fear that we were going to end up in some type of post-nuclear apocalypse. When that fear went away, there seemed to be genuine hope that a better world was in my future.

Now, at a crotchety old 43, I fail to see any way that we can emerge from this neoconservative mess that leaves this world anything like a world I wanted to live in. I'm not sure a new president -- or even a new Congress -- can undo the damage that's been done. And, yes, I once again am sleeping poorly -- not because we're going to get nuked (although that certainly seems to be back on the table now), but because we're on the verge of a total societal and economic collapse that will disrupt every aspect of our lives in ways we can scarcely fathom. I hope to hell someone can stop it, but I don't think it's stoppable anymore.

[BevHarris]

12. I met with Gore Vidal recently, and we discussed this.

I am shaken with how we have rebounded to worse than the 60s, and I asked him what he thinks will happen.

"People in the streets," he said simply. "And the speed with which it will implode will shock people. It will all happen very quickly."

That sounded rather dismal. I kept hoping for a more positive answer. "But do you think there is a plan to take over the world? A new wave of colonialism?"

He said, "We cannot. We are bankrupt." Our financial house of cards will crumble while we try to assert dominance.

"But is there a solution?" I asked.

"I've already said what it is. You didn't listen," he said.

Yes, indeed, I listened, and I heard, and the eloquent Mr. Vidal said, basically, the same thing as my politically incorrect husband says.

People will take to the streets. It will implode very quickly.

And then I think about this: Every few weeks, my husband and I used to amble over to the national archives to engage in a hobby of his, genealogy research. Now, our national archives have most of the building blocked off. It has been made into a prison, although at the moment it is empty. It was used once, though: To incarcerate demonstrators at a WTO event.

Look folks, we gotta get this guy out of office.

Bev Harris

[Beam Me Up]

20. About this "implosion" and what we need to do to PREPAIR:

Please see a thread I started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1557381

[Kanary]

13. Absolutely not!

We were making waves, and creating change everyday. From People's Park to the Women's Movement. It was within our grasp to make war obsolete, to make sure everyone had enough to thrive on, to build understanding between individuals.

So, here we are..... no more community symbolized by a People's Park, no more Free Clinics, no more understanding between the races than existed 30 years ago, complete disregard for those who don't have enough to survive, let alone thrive. Even here at DU, much sneering goes on if a woman dare says "Don't talk to me that way". So much for progress.

I'm sick at heart. My generation held out so much hope, and knew how to go after it.

Did the Age Of Aquarius whiz by that fast?

The next generation better do a heck of a lot better, and have more staying power, or the country is dust.

Also, I never really thought I'd be an "oldster".

"Never trust anyone over 30."

UHOH.....

Kanary

[Buns_of_Fire]

25. The "Age of Aquarius" came and went, and we never even noticed

It's been said that the biggest cynics used to be the idealists.

Never in my wildest nightmares did I envision it getting THIS screwed up.

[saigon68]

14. TIME TO DO SOMETHING

TIME TO GET MARCHING AGAIN

LOOKS LIKE COWARD AND CHICKEN HAWK ARE HAVING A PARTY IN THE CITY
THIS FALL

We need to go there and say hi to them







The second and last Nixon Coronation Convention Miami 1972

Ron Kovic in the chair front far right




I was treated like shit for years. While SMART guys like Wolfowitz, Cheney and all the rest of
the Chicken Hawks assumed their positions of power, money and influence. They SHIT on us at
every turn.

Now the motherfuckers want my son---

NO CHANCE that ain't gonna happen. Our next war will be fought in the streets of a AMERIKA

[starroute]

15. 1974 was actually one of the brighter moments of the last 40 years

The US was out of Vietnam, Nixon had resigned, and the worst abuses of the CIA were being curbed. The Cold War was fading. It was momentarily very exhilarating. I was sure that the specter of American Empire had been decisively rejected and that in the future we would see a freer, more open, more pluralistic world. I expected positive things of the United Nations and a widespread acceptance of ecological ideals.

The bad things that have happened since all started in the late 70's. Nixon being discredited made it possible for the fundies and neocons to take over the Republican party. The country in general became more conservative. US economic dominance began to slip, eroding the position of the middle class. Pressure began to build for deregulation and privitization. All sorts of shifty dealings involving Bush Sr., the CIA, BCCI, and the Saudis were initiated about 1976. In the wake of the energy crisis, US foreign policy under Carter became increasingly attuned towards control of Middle Eastern oil.

None of this was particularly obvious at the time. The extreme hopefulness of 1974 wore off pretty quickly, but it wasn't until Reagan was elected that it became apparent the country was heading back into a blind alley. (I don't know to this day how Reagan got away with as much as he did or why the Democratic Congress seemed determined to hand him everything he asked for.) And it was only about 1984/86 that the shape of the world we live in now began to be apparent.

[5thGenDemocrat]

48. I entered the US Army on 8 January 74

Age 17 years, three months and three days old.
My dad, a Korean War vet (he spent his overseas time in downtown Tokyo and had a swell time, thanks), pointed out to me that the Americans had just finished up one war and weren't likely to get into another one for at least four or five years.
He was right. The only fighting I saw (as a rear-echelon Signal Corps feeb) was every Friday night at the Fort Monroe EM club.
As to Nixon resigning, I was on duty at the Communication Center the night he announced it and what I remember most was how nothing, nada, zip happened. We went from one Commander-in-Chief to another, did it constitutionally and, so, it was just another shift at the office.
But the economy sucked. The military was held, overall, in pretty low regard while, back home in Saginaw, the big fat days of punching a time clock at Generous Motors were coming to an end.
I don't think politics are as much fun as they used to be but, other than that, I don't look back at 1974 with any real sentimentality, either.
John
Except for the 28-inch waistline I had at the time, of course.

[slackmaster]

17. Totally different set of things on my mind back then

30 years ago the Apollo space flight program had ended just over a year earlier. The Vietnam War was drawing rapidly to a close. Nixon was in deep yogurt without a spoon. The 1974 gasoline crisis was just barely starting. I was in my junior year in high school trying to get laid and still get good enough grades to guarantee easy acceptance into a good college or university.

The threats of war came from the Soviet Union and the Peoples' Republic of China. The Middle East was in chaos as it always has been and maybe always will be, but it wasn't the focus of our fears.

Science and technology would save us, so we thought back then. The air pollution in Southern California got to its worst state ever, not to start getting better until several years later. The US auto makers floundered while cars on the road approached an unheard of average of 9 years old IIRC, and the few consumers who could afford to buy a car (the ones who had jobs) faced a six-month wait for a new Honda Civic, the VW Beetle of the time.

Back then I still thought that by 2000 we'd all have picture phones and be driving atomic-powered cars like George Jetson just like Walt Disney told us back in '66. 2000 seemed like an eternity away. I couldn't picture myself being 42 years old (I'm 46 now).

Well, at least you can get a picture phone now, sort of.

:eyes:

[suzijane]

63. I vaguely recall 1974

I spent the year in a postpartum depression, IIRC...spouse in his residency in Boston. Cold as hell and poor as mice.

But I do remember it as a time when the Supreme Court was the most respected institution in government, and when from time to time there were Senators or Congressmen who seemed to be statesmen, and not just political hacks. When business and labor weren't always mortal enemies and when poverty was thought to be the result of a lack of opportunity rather than some moral failing.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

19. It was this way 30 years ago, with Nixon being around

But I didn't think it would be this way 30 years from then.

[DieboldMustDie]

64. I see our current situation as immeasurably worse than it was 30 years ago

Back then we had a Democratic congress and a relatively liberal supreme court. Now the whole government is run by a bunch of crazy pseudo-Christian neo-fascists. If we don't change course immediately it's all over. :grr:

[Beam Me Up]

21. THIRTY YEARS AGO WE KNEW. . .

. . . at least some of us knew that if our society did not begin building a renewable energy infrastructure, we would end up precisely where we are: In danger of environmental collapse due to overpopulation and degradation AND on the cusp of a global war for dwindling resources.

WE KNEW THIS.

Many of us also feared and openly opposed the already established fascist and racist tendencies in our Nation. However, we were not successful in keeping alive a nonviolent, socially progressive movement from the sixties onward. Partly this was because the social aspects of the movement were coopted by the established society we had actively opposed; partly this was due to many of our most visionary leaders being silenced (either by assassination or some form of trivialization). Also we, ourselves, have lived in a 'reality bubble' fed by the very "FASIST INSECT" that "PRAYED UPON THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE" (Symbionese Liberation Army motto). We still have no idea to what extent cointelpro operations completely subverted every effort of sincere citizens to alter the course of our society. Then, too, is the plane and simple truth that we, ourselves, could not grasp the enormity of what lay before us.

EDIT: If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend you view the documentary "Berkeley in the Sixties." It does a very good job of showing that THE POWERS WE ARE CONFRONTING TODAY WERE THERE THIRTY AND FORTY YEARS AGO. The situation has changed, and is, as you say, more intense; but in many respects it is the same battle.

[Karenina]

22. WHAT YOU SAID!

I'm in the transporter room. As a fifth grader, we did the "Duck & Cover" drill. I found it pretty stupid but got in trouble for saying so. We also discussed our environmental challenges. I concluded at the time that even though there were enough intelligent people of good will with the ability to solve problems, there were more than enough stupid people to prevent them from doing so. The monorail never got off the drawing board. :SIGH:

What I see every day that I log on, is a world gone topsy-turvy on bad acid trip that hasn't peaked yet. What a fucking mess. It's gonna be a l-o-n-g hot summer.
:scared:

[Beam Me Up]

36. "a world gone topsy-turvy on bad acid trip that hasn't peaked yet"

Yep. That just about says it for me.

My challenge to people here at DU right now is, are we going to organize in a way that can facilitate an outcome OTHER THAN TYRANNY?

I think we can. I think we must. I need people who get the concept enough that they'll be willing to help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1557381&mesg_id=1557381

[Hubert Flottz]

23. No!

But if you can get a copy of a book that I read about then, you'll see that someone did just that! The name of the book is,'The Rockefeller File'! It's strange how it all came true!

[justsam]

26. the country has gone to hell

for the working person, i was 30 in 1970 and if i chose to change jobs, i would have a new job within ten miles of my house and within ten minutes of leaving my old job..

[mopaul]

27. "I truly thought that love would change the world"...john lennon

and i did too. i bought into the flowerchild stuff, and i really thought that it was the dawning of the age of aquarius, and that we'd learned enough from vietnam to study war no more.

but no, it just takes a few assholes to screw it all up again.

[Beam Me Up]

37. Within You Without You

We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it's far too late-when they pass away.
We were talking-about the love we all could share-when we find it
To try our best to hold it there-with our love
With our love-we could save the world-if they only knew.
Try to realise it's all within yourself
No-one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows within you and without you.
We were talking-about the love that's gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know-they can't see-are you one of them?
When you've seen beyond yourself-then you may find, peace of mind,
Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see
we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

[July]

28. I lost my illusions when Reagan was elected.

And I felt worse when he was elected AGAIN.

But I was feeling a little more positive during the Clinton years, despite the jihad against him by the Republicans.

Star Wars kept failing its tests, and I thought it was dead. We were working with other nations to deal with nuclear proliferation and were decreasing the risk of nuclear war.

Environmental consciousness was mainstreamed, despite predictable corporate opposition.

The middle class was getting bigger.

And then it fell apart really quickly. I'm still in shock at how well-prepared the Republicans were to change regulations, propose laws, and inject religion into government. They were ready to make the most of their chance, whether it was a four-year or an eight-year opportunity.

I remember the Age of Aquarius optimism, but I don't really believe in steady upward progress anymore. I think we can make gains, but we will have setbacks, too. The times seem very dark right now, but when I think back to the hope and the real change (civil rights, for example) that was important at one time, I think we could get there again. We may have to live through unbelievable disgust and despair first, though. (We're there, aren't we?)

Still trying to get used to being an "Oldtimer."

[Norquist Nemesis]

31. Same here.

30 years ago I was almost 15. It wasn't great, but what did I care as long as I passed my drivers ed class so I could get a license and play all summer long cruising around. Politically, I was more into the local situation helping to get referendums to support school activities that were important and such. Had lots of battles with my dad over those (but finally one out in the end. :bounce: )

It was Reagan that set my alarm bells off too. By that time I was 21 and just married. We were even homeless for a short time sleeping in our car and with that you can't survive without believing that things can only get better. Once Clinton came in there really was hope and he delivered real prosperity.

The rhetoric from the RW and fundies really bothered me, but I never thought in a million years that they would be able to accomplish the things they've done. I had faith in people. I still have faith in them...but I now have a bigger fear of those few people with power and money. And it pains me to know the pain we are (let along what we've already experienced) before the people get fed up enough to really put the government back into the hands of the people that have OUR best interests to the forefront.

[bobbieinok]

55. 'well-prepared' is key word - for FL2000, right after inaug, Patriot Act

ready

[SharonAnn]

61. Actually, they started 10 years ago in 1994 when they took over

the House of Representatives.

They've been doing a lot of tax cutting, pork-barreling, deregulating ever since then. Go back and check out what Congress was doing after 1994. But Clinton vetoed a couple of their bills so they had to get one of theirs in the White House.

So, they stole it.

[r_u_stuck2]

29. What continues to amaze me

Not very many people have yet learned to think critically. It just appears to me that parents and educators fail to challenge young people to openly analyze anything.

Not trying to get off on a religious rant here but from my perspective:

1) Believe anything the preacher (priest) whatever significant religious figure says. He will not lie.

2) Our government is perfect, it will not lie.

3) Trust the corporations they help us live.


We only see things the way we do because of where we were born and the surroundings we were raised in.

I have two daughters and fear I have failed because they still do not grasp what is happening in this country. One is finishing her masters.

When I was young (in the 60's) you can be sure we were aware of some things because of fear of the draft. But the inner workings of government were unknown.

I fear power still remains in the hands of the few.

Do we really have any more say in how our country is run, than those in China or Russia or any other country? Or are we merely better manipulated?

[tom_paine]

38. Not any more we don't

We used to. Now that's very possibly over forever.

The "Divine Right of Kings" has reasserted itself and the Totalitarian Shadow stalks the Human Race.

[JHB]

30. Thirty years ago insult-slinging, jeering TV talking heads...

...were just a Saturday Night Live routine ("Jane, you ignorant slut...").

The real things were pretty boring, but kept to the facts (except for that Novak guy).


I've alway wanted to ask Al Franken (one of the SNL writers for those skits) how it felt to have forged the template for a quarter-century of qualityconservative broadcasting.

[kcwayne]

49. My first clue that the idealism of the 60's was completely dead was Reagan

When he was elected I thought how in the hell could people that have gone through the 60's and 70's like and support someone like Reagan.

I figured that I must be completely out of touch with what was happening in the country, and that my ideas about a progressive society that would strive to make the world a better place for everyone (continuing the legacy of MLK, feminism, and the anti-war movement) must have only been alive on some college campuses, but had no connection to the average person in this country.

Since I was living in Texas at the time, and I knew absolutely no one that was liberal or open minded, I was pretty sure that the hippie generation of which I was part was gone.

It was only recently, through forums such as DU and other sites on the internet that I have come to realize there is a body of people that still think and act on progressive issues. I just hope it is not too late, because the fear and depression I have of and over this government is much worse than I felt about LBJ and Nixon.

[RebelOne]

33. Yes, after I read "1984," I knew it was coming.

And that was when the 1984 was still in the future.

[BiggJawn]

34. Never thought it would turn out this way. never.

The US as a unilateral aggressor ("Pre-emptive war")? Still fighting for Women's Rights? Hearing bullshit superstitous reasons for denying other groups their rights (gay marriage)? The assault on our freedoms in the name of "National Security"?

And the take-over of our governemnt by "religous" forces? The continuing foisting of wasteful vehicles on the public (I thought we almost got smart in the late 70's, guess I was wrong)...

Annd on a personal level, did I expect to hit my late 40's divorced, obese, Diabetic, and STILL MAKING SHIT WAGES?????

No. This is NOT the life I ordered, there must have been some mistake.

[devinsgram]

35. Wow, this really gets me to thinking back.

Let's go back to the 50's when we had air raid drills in school and we had to hide under our desks or go sit in the hallways. That was pretty scarey to a young child. Everything then was about communism. You know "the communist's are coming and their going to get us." Thing of it is though, I was never afraid of them. Why? Because it never made sense to me. If they struck us, we would strike them.
So why would either side do it. After all, the Russian people in some ways were like us. No they didn't have what we had and their leaders were insane, but they were just men and women who wanted to live and raise their families and live in peace. Just didn't seem to make sense to be afraid of something I knew would never happen.

But now it's a whole different ballpark. Back then people seemed to have some intelligence and knew what war was like. After all they had just gone thru the 40's and Korea and they were ready to have peace. They wanted to settle down raise their families and live the American dream. You know, get a good job, build that dream house and retire and enjoy life.

Then came Vietnam. I still don't think most Americans really understood what happened over there, only that a lot of lives were lost. I never understood it, but the reason for that was that I was too caught up in my own life to really try to understand it.

After that we settled into a peaceful time and I never thought anything like that would ever happen again. I really thought we were all too smart for that. But I was wrong.

Here we are again standing at the brink of what might be the worse time this country has ever seen. Why, because this time we have leaders who have lied to us over and over and have brought us to this point.

Am I scared now? You bet I am. Why? Because most of America does not know the truth of how really bad it is out there. Back 30 or 40 or even 50 years ago we knew what was going on out there and we could prepare for it, now, well I guess when the big booooom comes they'll finally find out the truth.

Only problem is, it will be too late.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. I was more idealistic back then

so yes, I thought things would be better now.

[lectrobyte]

40. No, I thought things were going to be much better.

1974ish - Nixon was unravelling, Vietnam was over, abortion was legal, I thought things were headed in a good direction. My 20 year-old self then could not have expected this 30 years later, would have thought you were watching too much scifi if I time travelled back and told 'em how it was now. Even more paranoia, religious nuts in control, Ferengi invading and siezing oil, oh wait, I am watching too much scifi.

[tilsammans]

41. For me, the difference between then and now is . . .

As bad as things might have been 30+ years ago, I felt as if there was a collective optimism that it all would get better.

:cry:

[tnlefty]

42. No. 30 yrs. ago I thought we would be much more progressive than this.

I can't actually say that I "knew" things would eventually get this bad....merely that I've had an inkling or an uneasy feeling that things were going to get really rough.

The pardoning of Nixon disturbed me because it seemed to set him above the law.

I watched a lot of the Iran-Contra hearings and when those involved got out of that without being punished I really began to realize that we were in a world of hurt. Then to see the same criminals being recycled from one repuke administration into another.....

Kissinger, North, Negroponte, Bushes, and on and on are held up as Murikans to be proud of...the best that we have to offer. Sickening.

[silverpatronus]

46. if hell exists...

henry kissinger is going there

[msmcghee]

43. When the US failed to recognize in the mid-sixties . . .

. . that Viet Nam was not really an extension of the "domino effect" and was actually a calculated decision by politicians to further their own power and electability . . that was the beginning of the end of US dominance as a world moral leader and "beacon of democracy".

Johnson had a brief chance to reverse this direction but chose the safer path. Although, I believe he did so in order to enable passage of his Great Society legislation and not just for political power - although I'm sure that was part of it. His declining to seek further office paved the way for Nixon - a truly despicable person.

Nixon's reign was the proof of how far down Republicans would stoop to further their own power - and how bereft of any decent morality they were.

The Republican attack machine was created then in retaliation for the humiliation that Nixon brought to their party.

Reagan showed the Republicans the wisdom of running likable idiots for office.

Gingrich was the ultimate Machiavellian refinement of that effort.

Clinton scared the hell out of them because he showed how politics could be a force for good in people's lives while boosting the economy at the same time - but by that time the Repukes had taken full control of the media and voters were treated to months of stained dresses, Chandra Levy and earth-tones instead.

Finally, the impeachment and the last election showed them that they could do anything they wanted and the Democratic party would just play politics and not fight back effectively.

Bush-43 is the logical result of that 35 year slide into depravity, engineered by the GOP, but greatly enabled by pandering, weak, Dem politicos. Together, they have turned America into the true evil that we have been becoming since 1965.

IMHO this next election is our last and final chance at (possibly) reversing this process. Then again, maybe we've gone too far to the dark side and it will make no difference. Think about the ugly reality that almost half of Americans think that Bush is cool and torturing Iraqi prisoners is fine "after what they did to us on 9/ll''.

And, even if Kerry is elected, they'll still have both houses of congress and the Supreme Court. Maybe the damage has been done and our task now is just to suffer the consequences for our collective stupidity at letting this happen.

Added on edit: All dem politicians are not weak and pandering. I am hopefully thankfull for Jim McDermott, my home state rep. If there were more like him we might have had a chance.

[ursacorwin]

45. thanks so much, y'all!

msmcg has it about right, IMO.

bev, you rock! rockrockrock! i would give my left tit to talk one on one with vidal... in case you didn't know it, you're officially Big Time now.


i'm the product of hippie progressives getting together for a little "race-mixing" as dad tells me they used to call it. i was raised on stories about activism, protesting, and the transition from flower person to upstanding citizen in the community. i don't blame the former generation for setting down the torch- they grew up and had kids like me, what else could they have been expected to do? i myself am a bit burned out on physical protesting at the ripe age of 33.

no folks, the mess we're in is the result of really long-range planning on the part of the other guys. IMO, it's a simple thing to understand: old rich white men will be a minority in this country very soon. they know, because they do it all the time, what really goes on in jails, schools, & 'hoods where real working people live. they know that the way they control global resources is unfair and wrong, and makes billions suffer so they can stay superrich. they are very afraid, as they should be, of what will happen when this country is finally in the hands of the people as a whole and not just the few.

Mike Moore, whom I don't really like or think that funny, really hit it home to me in BFC. FEAR is all the current ruling class knows because it consumes them. thus they export it to us, the world, etc. but like any product, consumers tire of the same thing over and over. and fear has so many more desirable alternatives...unless you're a nazi.

these pictures from Abu G. are sooooo much more important than folks even here recognize. as we say at home, the jig is up, and it won't be too much longer before really, really big change comes to our shores.

[spanone]

44. Watch who you're callin' an old-timer! I have that same sinking feeling

I remember friends coming home with pieces missing and people telling me to love or leave America and if you oppose the war you are unpatriotic and it turned out the whole war was a bullshit war. This is a remake of that war. It's about greed and money and power. Not about peace prosperity and hope.

[mmonk]

47. This is more dangerous

We had no further designs on the world other than being the counter to communism. I can't believe my generation is doing this. No lessons learned at all.

[Th1onein]

50. Never in a million years.

[Armstead]

53. Thanks all for your thoughts

I bounce from optimism to pessimism about this. But it is a strange feeling to reach the age (50) where one'as younger years are already considered history, and the present is the future.

[Tyler Durden]

54. I am amazed it took this long.

52 this year

I felt things teetering a bit during Reagan and Bush 1.

[randr]

56. Roughly 30 years ago

we were embroiled in the Mai Lai massacrer fiasco.
An officer named Powell was chosen to get to the bottom of it.
One soldier, Lt. Calley, was persecuted.
The several hundred Vietnamese women, men, and children were never brought back to life. The country ignored the accusations that the atrocities were rampant from returning GIs, like Kerry, and we went about our lives as if were the most honorable and righteous people on the planet.
A few years later we fled the country in disgrace.

[DieboldMustDie]

66. Calley was tried and convicted, but served very little time.

"...the jury sentenced Calley to life of hard labor. In the end, he only served only days in Fort Leavenworth, before being transferred back to Fort Benning, where he was placed under house arrest. His sentence was repeatedly reduced. Finally, he was pardoned by President Nixon. He was paroled in November, 1974."

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/myl_bcalleyhtml.htm

[bobbieinok]

57. no, didn't really

I read a lot of sci fi and in the 90s found the stories talking about life after 'the destruction of the Urban Wars' just really strange.

And yes, Nixon and Reagan and Bush I were surprising but bearable.

When the Vietnam War was over I still at times had dreams/visions of ending my life in some sort of internment/concentration camp.

I thought that was really weird and could never happen and that I had such thoughts because I'd overdosed on WWII resistance movies and books and was somehow continuing the wired scary fear feelings of the 60s.

I knew in campaign 2000 it would not be good if W became pResident, but I had no idea things would be so bad so quickly.

I bugged a lot of people when I was in IA in June 2000 about my worries about W. My son kept reassuring me 'Mom, that's just because you live in OK. The rest of the country is sensible; even if he wins, he can't do too much bad because most people in the US are not like the ones you hear all the time in OK and will put the brakes on him if he tries anything really far out.'

Well, my son never claimed to be real good at reading the future, but he did calm me down for a while.

[happynewyear]

58. Yes

Yes I did and yes my best friend did. For this very reason, we both took an oath in our teenage years to never have any children because we knew is was going to really get ugly in the future.

In the 60's and 70's we at least had an "open society" so to speak.

Now we have a society of lies and secrets.

To this day, both my friend and I are both glad we never opted to have any children.

[BabsSong]

59. I can tell you when it started for me.............

It was the election during Clinton's administration when the repukes swept the Dems out of power in Congress. Didn't seem like anything big until the day after the election when the winners customarily give the speech about "all going forward together, blah, blah". This group of animals walked up to the mike and began to taunt and brag and threaten, etc. I stopped dead in my tracks and said "who in the hell are these sickos"!? I'd never seen anything like that. This was the beginning of the wingers. After that a lot of old repukes and dems started to retire and they all said that in years gone by they could argue like crazy with each other on the floor of the House or Senate and then go out and have dinner and drinks together. But it was then that things got vicious and in some cases life threatening and they had had it. That's when this nation started marching towards this tearing down of our institutions, our constitution, the usurption of power by the executive branch, the desire for war and this shades of Hitler and nationalism. We have become one sick puppy nation.

[Eloriel]

60. No, of course I didn't think it would be this way

I do NOT think it was just because I was young, foolish and naive that that time had much more hope connected to it. I thought (WE thought) we could do anything.

Our problem was, as someone alluded upthread (re seeing the documentary about Berkeley in the 60s, which is awesome), we didn't see the picture big enough. In a sense we got co-opted. They gave us, or gave in to us, just enough to mollify us. (And by "us" I mean the Civil Rights Movement, the Women's Movement, the anti-war movement -- all of it, everything good and progressive we did accomplish in those years.) It's kinda like a bacterium you treat inadequately with antibiotics -- it comes back stronger. Or a cancer that metastisizes even after surgery anyway.

Here's our REAL problem. We have to get to a place way above the obvious. Somehow we have to stop fighting the symptoms of the much, MUCH larger problem. It's fine to work against this war, to work to get George W. Bush out of office, to fight for fair trade instead of free trade, and any of a gazillion other things. BUT THESE ARE SYMPTOMS. And if we were "successful" it would NOT make our problems go away forever. Just as in the 60s, the forces we fought against merely retreated a bit (and only a bit). Because we were fighting the symptoms, a few tentacles of the octapus.

There are people who talk about a "shadow government." It's not a term I like or use because it sounds SO conspiracy-theorist. But even tho I tried not to, I've come to understand that there are people, organizations and forces who do exercise considerable control over the much bigger picture. AND for 4 generations now, the Bush Crime Family has been at the heart and center of these people/organizations/forces. THE power? I'm not at all sure, but there is plenty of power there -- enough so that our "problems" will not be over unless they are so completely discredited, tried for treason, and ruined that none of them can ever hold office again.

There are many others, of course, many of whose names we know and undoubtedly many of whose names we do not know. And of course the rogue CIA (current and ex-) and these private armies have to be disbanded and scattered to the wind as well. It's all quite mind-boggling the work that needs to be done.

But first we have to really understand the nature of the threat itself and for the most part we haven't until real recently, and then only among a few (comparatively speaking) of us Americans.

Here are some links from DU1 that may be of interest in showing a ittle more about how we got to where we are today:

Reality 501: Course Syllabus
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6873&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes

Reality 501: A DU Course Syllabus
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6920&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


REALITY 501: Course Syllabus Special Addendum - The 60s
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=14030&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


Reality 501: Syllabus UPDATE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8535&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


The US, the Saudis, and oil (a piece of Eloriel's Big Picture)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8558&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes

One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes

CONSPIRACIES
Conspiracies: Self-interest, fear, inertia, values
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5535&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes

Also see Information Architecture of Evil (rd dn) at http://www.zpluspartners.com/zblog/

Paranoid Shift
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html

PNAC - The Links Archive
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3021&forum=DCForumID12&archive=

DLC
LINKS - What every DUer and every Dem needs to know about the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4443&forum=DCForumID22&archive=

Let's be REALLY honest about the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23262&forum=DCForumID60&archive=

[Karenina]

67. KICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Eloriel!!! :hi: :loveya: :hi:

[msmcghee]

68. You said . .

Here's our REAL problem. We have to get to a place way above the obvious. Somehow we have to stop fighting the symptoms of the much, MUCH larger problem.

There's a lot of wisdom in that IMO.

I think societies are a bit like people in that they have a personality - and it can change over time. They can also get a mental disease and go through some pretty dark periods. I think that's what's happening to us.

Societies can be graded by their compassion for the least amongst them - and their respect for other cultures. Somehow, over the 35 years since Viet Nam, it has became OK to be greedy and selfish have a "we're right, fuck everybody else" attitude. Now we see that exemplified in the present administration's policies about everything, domestic, foreign, whatever. And you see it in the RW bumper stickers and the antenna flags and the hooting and clapping at the national anthem at sporting events.

Hopefully, this is cyclical (I think so) and we'll eventually burn out on this depraved view of how to live together with others on this globe - and hopefully a new age will begin, a kind of renaissance.

But if history is a guide, these reformative periods don't die easily. Enough suffering has to occur for the true believers to finally tire of the misery and destruction they have brought upon us. And of course, they'll deny ever being a part of it.

[amazona]

62. thought it would be "alas babylon"

You have to remember, 30 years ago, we didn't know that the Soviet Union had no delivery system. We grew up believing that in any 15 minute period, we could be killed and civilization wiped out.

Kids today actually sit down and consider retirement plans when considering where to take a job. Talk to your 70s self, and now you'll remember why you didn't worry about funding retirement -- there wasn't going to BE any retirement if you weren't wearing 5000 sunblock on that fateful day.

If you read the SF of the 50s and 60s, you will see it is heavily focused on "after the bomb" stories. Now we assume since it hasn't happened, it won't happen. Well, it didn't happen because the Soviets didn't have a delivery system and the Taliban/Pakistan ISI don't have a delivery system...but they will in a few years. So what can I say? We're living on borrowed time, is my attitude.

If I'd done a Rip Van Winkle, I have to confess, I'd be relieved it wasn't worse. Keep in mind, when Reagan was president, we had an Alzheimer's patient at the helm and those of us who were even slightly aware always had to keep in mind the idea that "we launched five minutes ago." Perhaps Nancy held him back, perhaps Deaver did, we'll never know, but it was a time of great fear and fear is the easiest emotion to forget once it has vanished.