Preemptive: Bush took us down an ugly path.

[fedupwithbush]

I've been thinking about this a lot. As I've seen all of you do. I read most of the time. And think way too much these days.

Does anyone in power, including the Democrats realize what the whole notion of preemption includes and what path it has lead us down?

When I first heard we were going after Iraq because they "might" do something to us, I had a vision of going next door to my neighbor who is an asshole and kicking his ass because he "might" try to kick mine someday. It didn't work for me. It shouldn't work for anyone, anywhere. If I or my family have to constantly do that, we are no more than a bully. And should receive no more respect than a bully.

This idea has lead to the current abuse(TORTURE) scandal. These people subscribe to the idea we should always be the aggressor for what you might do. I don't want to live that way.

The abuse scandal is just one more symptom of the original idea and implementation of preemptive action.

1. Not signing on to treaties that concern WAR CRIMES. Afghanistan was a start. No POW status. You were classified an enemy combatant. No lawyer, no GC(Geneva Convention) applied. And the military could and have transferred these people to another country(Gitmo).

2. The Patriot Act - While I think a FEW provisions are and were necessary, most just follow the preemptive mode again. We are guilty until proven innocent.

3. Attacking Iraq because they might attack us or assist someone in attacking us.

4. Free speech zones: Again taking away our right to voice our differences to the people that matter.

I think the torture of Iraqi's is just a continuation of the mindset that set in after September 11th for the Bush administration(not that I think he thought differently before that).

They honestly, sickeningly think that they have the power and the might to stop a crime from happening at ALL cost, including before the criminal even has the idea to commit the crime.

The military has been taken over with this idea. I hope a lot still have the ideals of before 9/11. But Bush, Rumsfeld and the whole group contributed to this, either straight out or by their actions of not ratifying treaties concerning war crimes, Patriot act, speeches, and on and on.

They have told our soldiers by their actions and words from the beginning it's all right to do whatever to stop anyone from attacking us. Some have obviously taken that to the nth degree. Rumsfeld and his assistants have over and over again told them to do whatever they think is necessary. And the military is not exempt from having sick people who went way beyond any order they received.

I'm sick about this. I haven't used spell check or even wrote nearly as much as I think. But I wanted to say this. SOMEONE needs to broadcast it much more than I ever could. And not mince words. Put it in simple words anyone can understand. WE ARE NOT BULLY's! We do have morals and ground rules for our conduct. There is no excuse for this administration. And we can't hide behind their excuses for the atrocities that are happening to people around the world and to our rights as citizens of the United States.

At this point it doesn't matter if we win the war. We are going to be a long time winning back the world. And the first step to doing that is booting out Bush and all the people behind him who thought preemptive was a "good thing".

[shraby]

1. Contact your

representative in congress. Tell him/her that you are calling for impeachment of Bush and the Bush administration...I did, and I also told him they need to be remanded to the Hague for war crimes.
Just put your representatives name in google and you can find contact information.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

8. My senators (both very conservative Repukes) don't give a shit

and my rep is trying hard just to keep his spot due to the shitty redistricting crap the repukes in Texas pulled on us.

[Cleita]

11. If anyone has any doubts. Look at the Constitution.

The Constitution of the United States of America

Article. II.
Section. 1.

Clause 6: In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

Section. 4.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Amendment XX

Section. 4. The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.

Amendment XXV

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

[Poiuyt]

2. We have set a BAD precident for the rest of the world

Now it's OK for China to invade Taiwan or India to invade Pakistan. They can all say that they are just following the Bush Doctrine. Will this be the opening of Pandora's Box?

[indigobusiness]

4. Pandora's box has been open

for awhile.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

9. Good point

why is it ok for us, but not ok for other countries?

sheesh we look pathetic.

[loyalsister]

3. I think you nailed it

There is way more to this than a few bad apples, or just a bunch of bad apples. This is function of the dogmatic patriotism that set in combined with demonizing all people from the ME. Add to that the fact that these soldiers are discovering it's all bullshit and they may have friends dying and the Iraqis aren't grateful and this is actually hard work and they aren't going home anytime soon, and you have a pissed off nest of hornets. These are hornets who regret that they don't get to take out their aggressions by shooting the ungrateful bastards. So, they get creative.
This was a disaster waiting to happen. It comes from the top down implicitly in policy and conditions if not direct orders.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

10. This isn't patriotism

it's nationalism. It's rabid, frothing at the mouth, wrap yourself in the flag so tightly you choke nationalism.

[loyalsister]

15. I agree

That's why I used the word "dogmatic." I have stated a few times that the propaganda surrounding this war will mess these soldiers up more than we can imagine. They believe they are simply "patriotic" in the everyday traditional sense. These soldiers didn't have a sense of what the reality of this war was going to be like. They were presented with a romantic vision of being patriots helping to rescue a country and and the world from terrorism. They didn't realize our soldiers would die ugly deaths. In fact, they were pretty much told there wouldn't be much of that. It would be over quickly and the Iraqis would be grateful- remember? The facts don't match their romantic vision, and they are not well trained enough to adapt.
It was another miscalculation that the administration should have been aware of and these soldiers will have to pay for. They have ruined their own lives (by the time deserved consequences and eventual risidual effects set in), and I'm not so sure it would have happened if not for this war. That's pretty messed up and sad.
There really aren't many who understand what has developed here as "nationalism." Nor do they understand the danger associated with it because of the widely held principle- "it can't happen in a America."

[the Kelly Gang]

5. pre-emptive war = war crime..and everything that follows is an evil

act and compounds it.

[indigobusiness]

6. yes

[not systems]

13. So says the UN charter.

Which we are bound by.

They nations of the world renounced war of aggression
and Bush reneged.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. You know what I kept thinking of?

How the police will tell you that you CANNOT arrest someone for what they MIGHT do.....there has to be some proof of wrongdoing!

I kept wondering why that most basic of laws in our society didn't apply to us on a national scale under Chucklenuts Junior.

And I never fail to be amazed at all the people who are just GOBSMACKED, gobsmacked, I tell ya, that this is going badly.

HELLLOOOOOOOOO???? We ATTACKED another country who had done NOTHING to us. We started an IMMORAL invasion of another country.

And get this delicious irony: we went AGAINST the UN to attack Iraq because they.....wait for it....WENT AGAINST THE UN.

Did the irony of that, the hypocrisy, just WHIZZ past the neocons' heads???

Guess so. I'm tired of how embarrassed they are making me feel to be American.

[Ksec]

12. I long for the days of real leadership

Its really too bad we couldnt have kept Clinton in office for another term. He had just finished a very thorough plan on dealing with these bastards right before Bush took over. He and Richard Clarke had tooled an effective plan which is now being used as a guide for fighting terror.

He handed the completed plan to Bush and Bush threw it away wanting instead to do it his way.

Of course his way was to adopt a new plan called Operation Ignore. He immediately went about spending 45% of his first nine months on vacation while the hijackers planned their attacks.

He golfed and fished and watched his terrier dog Barney chase armadillos while ignoring the threats being screamed at him by Clark and the director of the CIA. He cleared brush from his ranch as these guys ran around with their hair on fire warning of the very high possibility of terrorists attacking due to new highs in confirming chatter and other warning signs never seen before.

Operation Ignore was wildly successful. He was able to allow 911 to happen which opened the door to his real dream of invading Iraq and stealing their natural resources.

Now they are using Clinton and Clarkes plan. After the three thousand people died.

Ideas stolen from Lies and the lying liars who tell them

[opihimoimoi]

14. We must look for the root Cause of this madness.

Its called Brain washing, We are a Nation affected by good old fashioned Brain washing. Up is down and down is no good. Tell enough lies enough times and they will be believed. The bogger the better too.

People are natural born followers, love to be led. The Pubs know this, feed them Hope, sell them hope, convince them of hope... do they deliver? Take a hard look.

In the mean time, in return for hope, we gave them Power. OOps, wrong move, but now they want more power and for another 4 years? Whats up with that?