Let's take back the term "pro life"

[fujiyama]

Years ago I stopped using the term "pro life", right as the stem cell debate was going on. I found it amazing that people that screamed so much about the sanctity of the unborn, could really care so little about finding diseases for the living. Granted, I had already found the term hypocritical because these same people disliked any social programs for the living...

Of course, since then these same "pro lifers" have also shown themselves to be supporters of killing innocent Iraqis and brown skinned people from any country.

So, let's stop referring to them as "pro lifers", or them as being "pro life" in general.

Use the term anti choicers, because that's much more accurate.

[Cursive_Knives512]

1. Good idea

I consider myself pro-life in many ways. The most obvious is with abortion: I fully support a woman's right to choose. How's that pro-life, a lot of peole ask. I say because I respect the life of citizens and want to preserve their lives at all cost.

[never_get_over_it]

2. I never call the

anti-choice crowd pro-life - but I have been known to call them pro- birth. IMHO many of them don't seem to give a rat's butt what happens to the child once it is born.....

[Bullshot]

3. Around where I live, the so-called pro-lifers are hypocrites.

They'll fawn over Bush and all of the other Republican officeholders who proclaim that they support the rights of the unborn. Yet, these same people will vehemently argue about the merits of the Iraq war and all of Bush's lies that led to us being there.

Yessir. They'll fight for the rights of your children when they're in the womb. But, when they're 18 or older, you can go to Iraq or wherever, get your limbs blown off, get your mind messed up for life, or even get killed. But that's all right. Because you're doing it under the orders of our beloved AWOL alcoholic coke-head pathological lying commander-in-chief.

[dsc]

4. too bad you are wrong on nearly all accounts here

First, about half of all pro lifers actually support stem cell research. Some notable examples were Strom Thurmond and Orrin Hatch. Second, a significant number of pro lifers oppose both the death penalty and the Iraq war (more than a few priests have been arrested at demonstrations against both). So presuming you actually meant to use the word all you are just plain wrong.

[fujiyama]

5. A few priests

and a few represenatives supporting stem cell research , still doesn't mean I'm wrong. Please explain how I am "just plain wrong"? Please give me statistics that half of the "pro lifers" support stem cell research, and that a significant number of them oppose capital punishment, and the Iraq War.

I still find the term "pro life" to be incredibly offensive and arrogant. It's a conservative trick to make liberals look like moral relativists -- use the word "life", demonize those that support a women's right to choose (apparently you don't see the pure hypocrisy in the term), and just like with the flag -- you've stolen either a word or a symbol to use for your political agenda.

And BTW, most that oppose abortion are NOT against the death penalty. Only a few Catholics are, and even that number is small. Notice the recent fuss over Kerry being pro choice. The Catholic church doesn't care that Kerry is against the death penalty, because all that matters to them is opposition to abortion.

I really have no idea why you're trying to defend anti choicers and the nut job fundy crowd. It seems as though most that consider themselves 'pro life' in the political sense, usually support Bush's policies on everything else.

[MI Cherie]

6. What's even worse ...

... is when the anti-choice crowd doesn't even have a clue what Bu$hCo's other policies are. They only support him because he is anti-choice!

[dsc]

11. 25% of pro lifers voted for Gore

I have posted the exit polls that prove it several times.

[fujiyama]

17. That's nice

They aren't single issue voters.

I'm not interested in having the party pander to the "pro life" agenda though. If you find it important to, fine. The right is the one that politicized this issue.

If I remember correctly, it was your candidate that said you shouldn't compromise on everything. I also remember him giving a very clear argument against the "partial birth" abortion ban.

However, you never stated the glaring hypocrisy among Southern Baptists and other Protestant groups (and many Catholics as well) regarding the support for the DP vs opposition to obortion or Kerry getting flack for being pro choice, but being against the death penalty.

[outinforce]

7. Do You Really?

Wow.

An entire stream of the usual -- and totally unsupported -- accusations against -- who is it that you are against, exactly?

You appear, to me at least, to have some issue with people you refer to as "pro-lifers".

Who, exactly, is it that you are talking about?

Are you talking about those poeple who feel that minors should first notify their parents before they can get an abortion?

Are you talking about people who feel that it is somehow just not quite right for a perfectly heatlhy woman, whose pregnancy 0poses not risk to her life or her health, to abort a perfectly healthy fetus in the eighth month?

Or are you talking about people who support the right of a woman to choose abortion, but who would do everything they could to notify her of other possible options, and to support her if she elected an option other than abortion?

You say, for instance, "And BTW, most that oppose abortion are NOT against the death penalty"

Most people that "oppose abortion"? Does that include everyone who does not "support abortion"? Do you "support" abortion? Are you "pro-abortion"?

And, even if we could agree on exactly what is meant by "most that oppose abortion", how can you support your statement that "most who oppose abortion" are "NOT against the death penalty".

Do you have a link to provide us which shows both the number of people that clearly shows the number of people that "oopose abortion" and also shows the number of people that are "NOT against the death penalty"?

Or perhaps you yourself have conducted a focus group or two on these subjects? Perhaps you'd care to share your methodoolgy and the results with us?

You say that you find the term "pro-life" to be offensive -- incredibly offensive and arrogant.

Why?

Because, you say, "It's a...trick to...use (a) word (to) demonize (others)...and just like with the flag -- you've stolen either a word or a symbol to use for your political agenda."

Have you ever considered the possibility that the term "pro-choice" might be incredibly offensive and arrogant for precisely the same reasons?

[fujiyama]

16. Pro Abortion?

Did I ever state I FAVOR abortion?

It's not about my personal beliefs regarding abortion. I'm not a "fan" of abortion, but whether I like or dislike a medical procedure is irrelevant.

The government should not be able to tell woman what they can or cannot do with their bodies.

And what the hell do you mean by putting pro choicers and pro lifers in the same light? No, the left did not make this a political issue. The right did.

But I suppose that the right has the ability to define life and patriotism, and everything else. You seem to have bought their definition wholeheartedly.

[outinforce]

21. " "The government should not be able to tell woman"

"The government should not be able to tell woman what they can or cannot do with their bodies."

Then I take it that you favor the abolition of any governmental restriction against things likr silicon breast implants and female circumcision, as long as these procedures involve adult women who give their consent.

Am I correct?

[dsc]

10. there are these things called polls

you have have heard of them. But more to the point in the case of stem cell research most protestant pro lifers are in favor.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/poll010626.html

Among all groups examined in this poll, opposition to stem cell research is highest — 58 percent — among people who think abortion should be illegal in all cases (they account for one in five Americans). More moderate abortion opponents, who think abortion should be mostly, but not always, illegal, divide about evenly on stem cell research.

end of quote

About 20% of people are in the class of people who belive abortion should always be illegal. Another 20% fall in the other class. Thus the proportion of functionally pro life people who favor stem cell research is the average of 39 and 50 which is 44.5. That is pretty close to half. (actually within the MOE of half it should be noted)

[Servo300]

13. death penalty

Aren't there quite a few Democrats who support the death penalty also?

[dsc]

14. And here is your proof on abortion

http://www.cp.org/english/online/full/notes/030603/E060344AU.html

RNS) Nearly half of all Americans hold seemingly contradictory positions on the value of human life when asked about their support for capital punishment and abortion, according to a new Gallup survey.

Forty-seven per cent of respondents said they support the taking of life in either abortion or the death penalty, but not in the other. For the survey, abortion was regarded "as a cessation of life; no value judgment is intended."

Sixteen per cent support the "ending of life in the womb" through abortion but oppose the death penalty - the position closest to the platform of the Democratic Party - while 31 per cent oppose abortion but support the death penalty, a position closest to the Republican platform.

"Public opinion on abortion and the death penalty appears to be about much more than simply life and death," the Gallup Poll's Tuesday Briefing said.

Half of all Americans hold positions that embody a "consistent" life ethic, pollsters found. Twenty-two per cent support both abortion and the death penalty, while 28 per cent oppose abortion and the death penalty, a philosophy that would mirror the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, for example


end of quote

According to this poll the pro lifers, who were 59% of this sample, split 31 to 28 on the death penalty. Within the MOE of half. I do wonder about the higher pro life number in this poll but this is very close to evenly divided.

[corporatewhore]

8. i call prolifers who respect my right to choose pro life pro choice those

ones who are against abortion personally but respect a womans right to choosewho dont i call anti choice or fascist becausse they arent for the mother to have autonomy over her own life and i dont really have much respect for them

[fujiyama]

18. Exactly

I don't really care what someone's PERSONAL belief is regarding abortion. It's a PRIVATE matter. I myself don't really think abortion is a "good thing", but I think women should have the choice.

[corporatewhore]

9. I call them fascists or freedom haters save for the pro choice prolifers

the ones who are personally against abortion but think that the fed govt shouldnot be inside my womb and believe that i have the right to have autonomy and control over my own body

[meow2u3]

12. Real pro-lifers protect all life

not just that of the unborn!

[outinforce]

15. So What?

If "real" pro-lifers protect all life, then what do all "real" pro-choice folks support?

Do all "real" pro-choice folks support, for example, an expansion of the rights given under Roe v. Wade in order to ensure that women have a fundamental right to choose abortion at any time -- even up to the minute before birth -- during pregnancy?

[fujiyama]

20. I don't care

what your personal beliefs regarding abortion are. I myself even agree that those wanting to get an abortion should be informed about it (be given literature, any other therapy needed, etc). However, I doubt most women excitedly say "ooh I want an abortion".

As for last minute type abortions (so called partial birth), yes the procedures are disturbing, but which women would want one? They are performed in such rare cases as it is. Most doctors would doubtfully recommend it and it would probably be easier to deliver the baby rather than performing the procedure.

[AgadorSparticus]

19. good post! you make great points.

and you are right about their manipulation of language.