We are done, Kerry is an israel servant. why do we need a president ?

[kera]

We are under zionist occupation

JTA said Kerry has been working hard to win the Jewish vote after President Bush’s extraordinary concessions to Israel last month, when he recognised some Israeli claims to the West Bank and rejected any right of Palestinian refugees to return to Israel. His ADL speech sounded a range of notes aimed at pleasing Jewish ears - on civil rights, anti-Semitism and Israel.

“For the entire 20 years that I have been in the United States Senate, I’m proud that my commitment to a secure Jewish state has been unwavering; not even by one vote or one letter or one resolution has it wavered. As President, I can guarantee you that that support and that effort for our ally, a vibrant democracy, will continue,” said Sen Kerry.

[Jim Sagle]

1. Kerry RAWWWWWWWWWKSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

[Dookus]

2. how DARE he

want Jewish votes? The bastard!

You may have a point to make, but saying we're under Zionist occupation doesn't make it.

[Christ was Socialist]

5. Who do you think most hardline neo cons are?

They abandoned the left after we started suppoting palestinians. theya re all ex trotskyists and syndicalists

[Dookus]

22. I think they're largely scumbags

but that doesn't make them "zionist occupiers". The term is offensive.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Selwynn]

59. Listen Pal ~ check your own prejudice at the door.

Number one its not the Palestinian PEOPLE who are blowing things up with Bombs - its the fanatical, hateful, criminal fuck head terrorists groups like Hamas doing that. Just like its not the Israeli people who are psycho, terrorist, international law breaking, human rights violating, ultra fanatical fuck faces - its the likud party and its leader Sharon who deserver the rage and indignance of EVERY decent human being.

The difference between Sudan, Liberia and Rwanda is this: I can't change the past, and I did speak out loudly about the abuses in Rwanda when they happened pleading with my jokingly labeled "representative" government to act. And I have plenty of tears for Sudan, Liberia and every place where human beings suffer needlessly.

The difference is, not Sudan, nor Liberia nor Rwanda has the BEDFELLOW RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES THAT ISRAEL ENJOYS. We are not best buddies with Sudan. We are not cozying up to Liberia. Israel is the only place where the government continues to illegally occupy territory it forcefully invaded, just like Saddam Hussein did when we called him a mad man and a evildoer in 1991, continues to use terror against Palestinian people in the name of fighting terrorism, continues to have a long and painfully well documented string of gross human rights abuses and indecency violating treaty and international law time and time again (Human Rights Watch) - the most cozy US-backed country that condones assassination, targets civilians, forces people of other ethnicity's off their lands making the refugees then denies them the right of return guaranteed to them under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and on and on and on and on.

The reason why the nation of Israel - which means the government and should be differentiated from the people of Israel, rightfully deserves harsh criticism is because of our hypocrisy in so forcefully and strongly supporting a country whose government is guilty of the very things we've (supposedly) gone to war over in Iraq (though we know that's not the true reason) and the very things that we speak out against and condemn when referring to the "axis of evil" or "evil doers." It's ridiculous and its hypocritical.

And as for you, once again here is yet another CROWNING EXAMPLE of how if you ever point out these truths someone will be right there you imply that you're a "Jew hater." My criticisms have nothing to do with who looks like what or worships who are comes from where - my criticisms have to do with our government so unilaterally and forcefully supporting one of the biggest rogue nations in the world, a nation that defies the international community on a regular basis, continually breaks international law, laughs in the face of universal human rights standards, and commits terrorism in the name of fighting terrorism (terrorism is still terrorism whether its committed by one guy with a bomb or by an entire army working at behest of a government.)

The United States support for any country should be conditional on its adherence to international law and human rights standards. But that will never happen for many reasons - 1) our own record on international law and human rights standards is pathetic, and its clear we have no real respect for either. 2) Our support of Israel has always been, and will always continue to be in large part irrational, based to a large extent on RELIGIOUS reasons, not rational ones 3) Our own crusades against Arabs in the Middle East require that we have this ally in the region, and our own self-interests are more important to us than acknowledging they grave atrocities and despicable behavior of the government we so closely back.

As far as your illusion to prejudice goes - your the one speaking supporting "the Palestinians" like that's a bad thing and as though all Palestinians are "the same to you" and that terrorism and Palestinians is one and the same. Hmm... who has the prejudice to think about? At least I make a distinction between the Israeli government which I despise and the Israeli people that I feel deep compassion and sadness for - and pray for peace.

Sel

[cantwealljustgetalong]

70. it's amazing how many diehard supporters...

of Palestinian statehood there are that don't give Kurdish sovereignty a moment's thought...it certainly raises an eyebrow considering there is a lack of equivalent angst for significantly worse atrocities the world over, not least of which are the human rights violations that are standard operating procedure in Arabia...

[aquart]

28. Oh, I think it does.

I think she makes her point perfectly. The ugliness is like a shining beacon.

[papau]

35. LOL - Freeper concepts do not grow well at DU!!!

:-)

[tinanator]

44. what do you mean by that?

Freeper are vociferously anti-Palestinian and pro-Israeli. If this is something that Democrats agree with then we simply dont have two parties of significant difference anymore. I would invite the pro-Israel supporters of assassination and settlers to join their natural colleagues over there. And for those lacking real information, one detail that is constantly unrepresented is the road building in Palestinian territories that are only for Israeli use. These roads crisscross and have isolated Palestinians from their family members, schools, food sources and just about any sort of normal life.

[papau]

56. I disagree - Moderates - and DU tends to moderate - see the Palestinian

sufferring and want it to end.

And Clinton's TABA was such an ending.

But Arafat was into no Jewish State via right of return.

Once a Jewish State is agreed to by the PA, I suspect the pieces will fall into place for a just (as to territory) peace in 6 months.

[tinanator]

58. the Palestinian Authority has none

this is always about Israeli colonization, water and ethnic hatred. They NEVER move in the righteous direction of peace, and I dont care how many suicide bombers act, there is a strong possibility that any one of them (particularly the peculiarly inopportune/opportune ones that derail peace accords) is simply a black op staged by almost anyone with an interest other than peace. The reality of Israeli actions in Palestinian territories is never disclosed to the US through the media, and the filthy connections that Israel maintained with Apartheid South Africa speak volumes about their dedication to democracy. Endless lies are told over and over by the zealots who worship Israel as a FALSE GOD, and they are leading us further and further towards the next World War. Like Bush after 9-11-01 they have spent their sympathetic capital as Holocaust victims and become the most oppressive and dangerous state in our sphere of influence.

[Selwynn]

60. How old are you?

Just curious.

[physioex]

3. Look what happened to James Moran....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/14/moran.remarks/

If you want a candidate that is more even handed, the Jewish (AIPAC) and the Evangelical Christian lobby needs to be broken. Lets face it, no politician from either party can open his/her mouth and say anything bad about the Jews and not commit political suicide. I hope that the American Arabs band together and form their own lobby, perhaps then this country can become more even handed in the Arab Israeli conflict. In addition to stopping the hand out of billions of dollars in welfare to Israel.

[durutti]

12. Moran's comments were anti-Semitic.

He didn't denounce the Israeli government or right-wing Zionists. He denounced Jews. If he said what he said about blacks or Hispanics, I'm guessing you'd (rightly) be crying racism. What he said was wrong and unnecessary.

[physioex]

14. Man you people are too smart...

I suppose Moran wasn't smart, but I could sympathize with what he said. I also hope this country stops giving billions away to Israel.

[aquart]

29. YES! Let's break the Jews.

There's so much historical tradition it must be fun.

I thought the billions were being handed to Halliburton, you mean an actual democracy is getting a few bucks? Amazing.

I take it you want to be able to say bad things about the Jews and get elected to high office. There was a country like that. Whatever happened to that country? Still, I believe it's okay in Indonesia. It's definitely okay in the Middle East. Lots of places where you can vilify the Jews.

And if you try hard enough, we can be just like them, yes, we can.

[bluestateguy]

4. You assume a lot about the "Jewish vote"

you assume all Jews in this country partake in the Likud/Neo-con foreign policy agenda. They don't. Jewish voters have been loyal to the Democratic Party for almost a hundred years now because of a strong commitment to civil rights and social justice. Jews have preferred the Democrats even when Republicans have nominated candidates who are more pro-Israel than the Democratic candidate.

[physioex]

6. Havent you heard of AIPAC and the evangelicals?? WAKE UP. EOM

[bluestateguy]

10. Yes I have, So what

AIPAC is a PAC just like the 4000 other PAC's that infiltrate politics. They have little grass roots appeal in the Jewish community. I don't know how this got to the evangelicals. That's another issue. They have their reasons for supporting Israel, though they are in reality very anti-Semetic.

[physioex]

13. Of course they are antisematic but....

They want the second coming of the messiah and the only way to do that is to have the "Chose Ones" occupy Judea and Samaria. So they are also major supporters of Israel. Look at those nuts Robertson and Falwell.

[aquart]

25. Don't be silly.

Jews look alike and think alike. We're really monster robots, programmed by Satan. Honest Injun.

I used to have a kitchen floor that looked just like DU at night.

[sendero]

40. I agree....

.... every Jewish person I know personally well enough to know their politics is a liberal with beliefs similar to mine.

The right-wing Jews are a minority, but they have power in excess of their numbers due to superior organizations, much like Christians right wingers.

[rumguy]

7. fa-lame bait

[aquart]

26. You betcha.

[anarchy1999]

8. Move it to the Foreign Affairs Forum, Special Place for these arguments.

n/t

You can wind up getting into wars you wish you had never started.

[durutti]

9. There are no "Israel servants".

Look, I'm as anti-Zionist as they come, but I think that those anti-Zionists who portray the U.S. as doing Israel's bidding are unwittingly influenced by those who disguise their anti-Semitism as anti-Zionism.

Yes, the Zionist lobby is influential. But there's more to it than that. Ultimately, the U.S. allies itself with Israel because that's what the elites want. Israel serves as America's "watchdog" in the Middle East.

The U.S. is not Israel's puppet. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

[physioex]

18. "Don't worry about the americans we own them"

Who's ass was W kissing when he made a visit to Washington? It didn't take long for W to agree to whatever came out of Sharon's mouth. I may not be the smartest person on this board but I know who on the leash in that visit.

[aquart]

30. FABULOUS! SHARON RUNS WASHINGTON!

So, Jews being two percent of the population of the United States, how does he do that exactly? Must be because Jews are so clever.

Is he rich? But Israel depends on US money, not the other way around. Strange. You'd think that the one with the bucks would give the orders.

What a mystery. Yet, you said it, without a shred of evidence, so it must be right.

[meti57b]

53. We control Washington through the International Jewish Conspiracy

sheesh!! I thought everyone knew that.

[Selwynn]

63. Try this: controlling Washington through special religious status...

...this country believes that Israel is god's special favored nation and that we must always be on Israel's side for that reason. This basic religious backdrop has colored our policies toward Israel forever, and are a very large part of the reason why we don't stand up and call a spade a spade, and deliver the much deserved and equal amount of chastisement and criticism to the Israeli government that we so quickly hand out elsewhere.

The thing that I has frustrating, hurt and angered many people including me over the years is the U.S policy of giving Israel "special status" - a status based largely on these religious overtones as well as our own political interests in the region. We refuse to stand up and demand that the Israeli government get its act together with the same force that we demand that of the Palestinian authority and there is a basic attitude in Washington as though Israel can never be criticized as doing any wrong -- why? Because Israel is "special."

That's why Dean got hammered about Israel for basically saying that the US should should trying actually being a fair and honest party in the matter - even that is just too damn close to a possible "harsh" word toward our protected, special little God-chosen state. That makes me just as sick as Hamas terrorists.

That's the kind of "power" that the Israeli government has over the United States - it enjoys a sort of "untouchable" status because of its combination of religious significance to many in this nation and because of its strategic political and military value in the region in our continuing crusade against Arabs around the world (I'm sorry but at this point looking at Bush's policies I just don't know what else to call it.)

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. You're naive if you think that John Kerry...

would be the president to alter five and a half decades of US foreign policy with regard to Israel, and stupid if you think he should.

Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East; Israeli Arabs (not Palestinians, but the Palestinians reside in disputed territory and claim their own sovereignty) have full civil rights, and many Arabs are members of the Israeli Knesset. I can assure you that Jews would not find themselves treated so well in most of the Arab states, many of which are committed in principle to the wholesale destruction of Israel.

The Israeli situation vis-a-vis the Palestinians is vexing and troublesome, but it is to be hoped that American influence and intervention will help bring about a solution which is equitable to all parties involved; withdrawal of American support for Israel is NOT the way to solve the dilemma. The only thing that would accomplish would be the END of Israel, as the more militant Arab states would likely see an Israel not supported by America as an easier target.

Oh, and the phrase "Zionist occupation" makes you sound like one of those psychopathic anti-Semites who rants about "ZOG"...you might want to think about using it.

[rumguy]

15. excellent post...

[durutti]

16. C'mon now.

I agree that physioex's comments were wrong-headed, but it's equally wrong to say that the U.S. shouldn't alter its Israel policy.

The terrorism problem is related very closely to U.S. policy in this regard. The anger of the Arab populace is the result of the U.S.'s almost unconditional support for Israel, and of its propping up of despots throughout the region. No progress can be made on this issue until the U.S. reconsiders its relationship with Israel.

You make the hackneyed assertion that Israel is "the ONLY democracy" in the Middle East. So what? Apartheid South Africa was a democracy in this sense. Israel is also the ONLY country in the world characterized by settler-colonialism.

Israeli Arabs don't have full civil rights. 90 percent of the land in Israel is managed by the Jewish National Fund, which won't sell to non-Jews. Furthermore, Israeli Arabs are discriminated against in housing, public services, etc. Many Arab villages that have existed longer than the state of Israel go unrecognized by the state. And obviously, the Palestinians who live in the Territories don't have any rights. In some Arab countries, Jews are treated worse than Palestinians in Israel; in others, they are not.

Israel has built itself a substantial military (the fourth most powerful in the world), and has become the only power in the region with nuclear weapons. If the U.S. were withdraw aid to Israel, the Arab states would not attempt to destroy Israel -- they don't have the power. And certainly Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq would leave Israel alone, simply by virtue of being allied with or controlled by the U.S.

[physioex]

19. I agree with you except...

I am wrong headed... ;)

[kera]

17. who has WMD in Middle east?

what a joke! militant Arab states (I have never heard of this concept before) it must be another psychopathic anti Arab concept

Israel would be an easy target- Have you forgotten the Israel aggression on Syria its threats to Iran?

war crimes and destruction and land grabbing against Palestinians you call vexing and troublesome? there is an imminent justice

this sh^ty country

[physioex]

20. Honey youre one smart chick...

Are you single and looking? We'd have a lot to talk about.
:yourock:

[aquart]

32. iT'S A MATCH!

Sometimes fate just takes a hand.

I say, go for it.

[leftynyc]

37. I can't believe you're defending Syria!!!

Do you know absolutely anything about that country or is merely being against Israel enough for you to defend it?

[kera]

68. Syria is not an abstract entityor just a government

it is a continum where innocent people breath

the axis of evil has been wrongly defined

[Christ was Socialist]

21. Israeli apartheid is worse than south africa was

so you obviously support us torture, because israel does the same thing. Its a rogue nation, who will be the cause of the next great war. It opresses a people based on ancient paltry texts. Wow If we can all reclaim where we came from, What a wonderful day. Why do you think anti semitism is almost as high now as it was in the 20's, most european leftists and rightist can't stand israel, although for different reasons.


Even desmond tutu called it worse than south africa
http://mondediplo.com/2003/11/04apartheid

Jews For Justice
http://ifamericansonlyknew.org/

[physioex]

23. If this problem was fixed....

Nearly all the hatred of this country would be gone. Except that fool W had to go and invade a defenseless country. Now the situation is waaaaay more complicated.

[aquart]

27. "Ancient paltry texts."

I'm gonna treasure that one.

European anti-semitism lives in the woodwork. World War II made it scurry into hiding, but it's out and florishing now.

It's so adorable of you to think that the Jews actually had to DO something for it.

Let me know when you get upset over an Arab blowing up an Israeli schoolbus. I want to hear your anguish.

BTW, feeling any outrage over the Sudan? Didn't think so.

ANCIENT PALTRY TEXTS!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!! A GOOD ONE!!!

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dutchdemocrat]

50. Israel is NOT the only democracy in the ME

Turkey is a democracy and the Turks are more apt to set a better example of democracy in the Middle East with all the reforms they are implementing in order to join the EU than Israel with it's Palestinian concentration camps.

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupe/ej/01.htm

The argument that Israel is the only democracy in the ME is dead.

Besides, the US has propped up more dictatorships around the world than one can shake a stick at and is currently undermining real democracies such as Venezuela's and leaning on Lula in Brazil.

This bullshit 'spreading' of democracy by the US is fine rhetoric... only when it is in its own economic interests.

Call it neoimperialism if you like.

[rockymountaindem]

54. Technically

Turkey is not part of the ME. Nor are they a shining example of democracy and justice. Their treatment of the Gypsy population is nothing they should be proud of, nor is their treatment of the Kurds.

[Selwynn]

65. You are very right, imo - but my troubling problem is this:

I really agree with your points about the reasons to support Israel in the middle east. But if you read my other posts above, you also see that I have had some extremely harshly critical things to say about the Israeli government, justified in my opinion.

My problem is this: while I believe you are right on the reasons to support Israel, my problem is that Israel seems to enjoy special "untouchable" status. We as a nation, and as a government simple refuse to seriously criticize the Israeli government for its serious, serious abuses and problems. In short, we refuse to be fair or be just. We act as though the Israeli government can do no wrong, and anyone who points out wrongdoing and demands that it change is ridiculed and his/her political career is finished.

That, frankly, infuriates me. I acknowledge every single positive thing you said about the nation of Israel and why we should support them. But I have huge massive problems with our utterly unqualified support - that makes me incredibly angry. With our great power we could demand that the Israeli government take deliberate and serious steps to stop many of these huge abuses, or face our withdrawn support. But we refuse to do so. That makes me very upset.

I believe US support ought to always be conditional on those we support committing to principles of justice, adherence to international law (which I realize is a joke since we don't adhere to international law either) and a commitment to the universal declaration of human rights and human rights standards. I know that this is currently not the way it is, but it should be.

I'm tried of the Israeli government getting virtual free pass from the United States government that says, "hey whatever you do, we're with you." That makes me sick to my stomach. :(

[aquart]

24. "Zionist occupation"???

I'm not allowed to say it. I'm not allowed to say it. I'm not allowed to say it.


Oh, DU, where we always get a little touch of racists in the night.

[Onlooker]

33. Israel is still the most progressive state in the ME

Israel has the same problem as the U.S., a terrible leader of a terrible party is running the show because the people are scared. As long as Sharon (or Bush) continue policies of fear they have a good chance of staying in office.

When it comes to women's rights, gay rights, or for that matter the rights of minorities, Israel is still the most progressive state in the ME with Egypt probably second.

The problem for Israel right now is not the Zionists, it's the fundamentalists.

[CWebster]

34. If the whites in South Africa were Jews

they could've claimed any condemnation on their racist policies and apartheid was anti-semitic.

It ain't nothing but a smokescreen to obscure the gross inhumanity and suppress the truth. For shame.

[Bridget Burke]

36. There are quite a few Jewish South Africans.

Many of them were on the forefront in the fight against apartheid.

[keithyboy]

41. The same one who receive WMDs from Israel during apartheid.

It was one of most evil thins Israel has done. And they wonder why many blacks feel the way they do.

[CWebster]

48. That wasn't the point

and you know it.

[Bridget Burke]

39. Let's read the whole speech.

Could you give us a link so we can understand the context? The statement seems favorable to Israel in a very general way. It doesn't expressly support Sharon.

I find Sharon's policies repugnant but I see nothing wrong with civil rights. And I see nothing right about anti-semitism.

There, I said it. Irish-American lapsed Catholic yelling: "Anti-Semitism."

[CWebster]

49. That's crap

It is as if you are so indoctrinated by the Holocaust that you can't see behind the construct that blurs the reality and creates the illusion of ultimate victimization for Israel and plays on your guilt.

Israeli apartheid has nothing to do with Jewish identity other than nationalism in terms of identity. The same could be said of any country who practiced similar policies--Jewish or not.

[drfemoe]

51. Link and Snip >>

http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0503.html

There is no greater challenge and no greater danger for civilization today than the ultimate expression of bigotry and hatred: terrorism. Our friends in Israel have lived with terror their entire lives, and on a tragic day three Septembers ago, it was terror that landed on America’s doorstep.

Let me be clear: I will be a President who works with the rest of the world to wipe out the terrorism that threatens our common humanity.

The people of Israel should also know that, as President, my commitment to a safe and secure Jewish state will be unwavering. For nineteen years, this is a pledge I have kept in the United States Senate – whether through my votes on economic aid, military security, or the location of the U.S. Embassy. And it is one I will continue to keep over the next four years.

After returning home from war in Vietnam, I’ve always had the sense that every other day is extra. And my many visits to Israel have shown me how this same sense prevails among some of the world’s strongest survivors – the Jewish people.
...
When I am President of the United States, my promise to the people of Israel will be this:

We will never pressure you to compromise your security.

We will never expect you to negotiate for peace without a credible partner.

And we will always work to provide the political and military and economic help for your fight against terror.

Unfortunately, yesterday the Likud voted against Prime Minister Sharon’s Gaza withdrawal plan. Prime Minister Sharon’s proposal could have been and may still be a step forward for both Israelis and Palestinians. Whatever the future of this particular plan, if elected president, I will work continuously and vigorously with the Israeli government to move forward on this or similar efforts.

** speech ** no copyright

[kera]

69. link

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_6-5-2004_pg4_9

[AngryAmish]

43. Is this post the mainstream thought on DU?

[tinanator]

46. It is the progressive left POV

DU is quite largely the "centrist"/conservative arm of American politics. Very few progressives bother with this site, and those that do are quite often discouraged by the rampant (albeit Bush hating) Republican attitude (ie We would be better off with Kerry doing the post invasion administration vs we need to get our boys out now!)
The blanket support of the apartheidists in Israel is a result of money laundering from our treasury into their weapons purchases and back to our politicians. We can expect nothing different from the whores in our government as long as they can continue with this corruption in support of a Theocracy.

[rebellious woman]

52. I have no qualms with Israel, it's Sharon and his government

I cannot stand. I love my country but have no use
for present govenment. What does that make me?

[hexola]

45. Exact opposite feeling here....

Kerry at the ADL:

"As president, my promise to the people of Israel is this: I will never force Israel to make concessions that cost or compromise any of Israel's security,"

Translation: Israel will make concessions.

I think there is a huge difference to being pro-Israel (kerry) and being Israel's dog (bush)...

I think kerry is basically saying - you wont push me around like G-WMD-Bush.

[hexola]

47. Bush and Clinton had the same Iraq policy...but look at the difference...

Same for Israel - policy is one thing - what you do with it is another....

[Toronto Ron]

55. A few quick comments in response to some of the replies:

(1) It seems that many here use "Zionism" as an extremely pejorative term, referring probably to the attitudes of the SETTLERS who desire a "Greater Israel". This is wrong (if not malicious); Zionism is the movement that began in the late 1800s to reestablish the Jewish homeland. Today it doesn't have much meaning, aside from perhaps "Zionist" as one who still supports the Jewish state. It is regrettable how the term has been hijacked to be a perjorative one.

(2) Do those that call for the U.S. to end foreign aid to Israel also support ending it for Egypt, which gets almost as much? Another point on the foreign aid: In the bigger scheme of things, $3 billion isn't that much these days. It is folly to believe that Israel can be made to significantly change its policies by threatening to revoke the aid.

(3) Sharon was not elected by anything near a majority of Israelis; he's the Prime Minister because he formed a coalition. That said, the Likud got more votes than any other party in the last two elections because the Israeli Left stayed home (voter turnout in 60%'s in contrast to the usual high-70%'s plus). They stayed home (this includes relatives of mine) due to disillusionment over the Palestinian rejection of former PM Ehud Barak's peace offer, which President Clinton worked so hard to help along. Maybe the deal wasn't perfect for the Palestinians, but it was pretty damn good. Many (if not all) of the Arab/Islamic states did NOT want the peace deal to pass, because it would mean the end of using the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a scapegoat to redirect the discontent of their citizenry.

(4) My personal opinion: I am optimistic in the long term. We are in the midst of several dark years, but there are some positive signs such as the various peace proposals floating around. Sharon has just a couple more years (if that), and Arafat can't last forever. With those two out of the picture - and with a competent hands-on U.S. President like Bill Clinton - I believe saner heads will prevail.

[CWebster]

57. "Barak's generous offer" was a sham

http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html

[papau]

64. Camp David was not enough - but Taba should have been a done deal

The right of return - meaning the end of the Jewish state - was just not something Arafat would let go of.

The Geneva Accords have put some meat on Taba -

We are getting closer to peace - but we need a Clinton-like President to complete the process.

[Toronto Ron]

67. Because this one fringe site says so?

I tried to find out who "Gush Shalom" is, but the "About" and "Our Actions" links are broken.

But the first two paragraphs on the page you link to tell me all I need to know, particularly the part about the 1993 Oslo Agreement being a "historic compromise" on the part of the Palestinians because they finally accepted the 1947-48 partition.

I suppose this is one reason why the conflict is so difficult: Each faction decides what point in history is the basis for its agenda. I will not argue with those who cannot accept the fact of Israel's existence within at least its 1948 borders.

On Edit: The quotation marks in your subject line are disingenuous; I did not use the word "generous". Pretty low, dude.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Completely bigoted opening statement

[nixonwasbetterthanW]

62. "right of return" is total nonsense.

The Palestinians have never officially wavered from their intent to "drive the Jews into the sea." Why then should Israel commit suicide by opening up the opportunity that the Palestinians become the majority in their country?

[robbedvoter]

66. Yup. You are done. Them jews are coming to suck your blood!

next thing, you'll be eating matzoh!

[Moderator]

71. Locking

OP is not appropriate.