BBV: I'm now back from the EAC hearings in Washington

[gristy]

Here's my original thread on this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1510591

Star panelists were Avi Rubin on the Technology Panel, Dr. Devin Chung (President ant CEO of Avante) on the Vendor panel, and Kevin Shelley (CA SOS) on the Election Administrator Panel. Of course, I hate America :evilgrin:

The room was absolutely packed. About 150 people seated and at least 60 jammed standing against the walls and in back. The commissioners did an ok job. I wish I was Nina Totenberg (sp?) and I could give you a wonderful run-down of what was said. But I'm not and I won't. :(

Lots of reporters. Signed in up front were folks from the Phil Inquirer, Bloomberg News, Chicago Tribune, Newsday, Wired News, Orlando Sentinal, NY Times, CNN, Washington Post, Computer World, and Roll Call. I saw cameras from C-SPAN and CNN. Might have been others too.

Avi Rubin was sitting in front of me. He gave terrific testimony (no way to verify that the vote was recorded correctly, and no way to publicly count the vote). He brought up the the important concept of the "Trusted Computing Base". I complimented him after he sat back down, and we were passing occasional notes back and forth after that.

Was interesting the hear these people live. Got a better feel for the companies and individuals involved. Diebold and Mark Radke (their Dir. of Marketing) is nothing but a salesman. And I mean that in the most derogatory way possible. "100% accuracy", he'd say. A commissioner asked if means by accuracy the undervote performance and not the possiblity of fraud. Radke admitted that yes, that was what he meant.

I spoke with Mary Kiffmeyer (MN SOS and President of NASS). She said that within the next week her office will be releasing a "fact sheet" which outlines MN's paper-based system and how it can be used as an alternative to DREs. I learned from her that ES&S has bought Vogue Election Systems. Vogue has the cool Automark system which assists the disaabled in generating a paper ballot. MN is using this system to meet their HAVA requirements, dovetailing it with their existing paper-based/optical-scan systems.

Stephen Berger (IEEE, on Technology Panel) gave an interesting and thoughtful response to one of the commissioners comments to him that when microwaves came out, there overly skeptical and scared of these machines - afraid of getting cookd. Berger replied that it turned out that the fear and skepticism was actually well-founded in that case, that they were leaking microwaves and generating health risks. He went on to say that these kinds of problems are repeated all the time with new technology introductions. So the point he is making here is that there often/usually are significant problems with new technology.
On the Vendor Panel, the CEO of Avante, Dr. Kevin Chung, really shined. Admittedly, he is looking to sell his systems just like all the clowns on the vendor panel. But he pulled no punches in his statements regarding the need for paper ballots/trail.

The first place award for pulling no punches goes to Kevin Shelley, CA SOS. He followed the testimony of Kathy Rogers (GA SOS) with the Monty Python line "And now for something completely different." Pretty funny, but didn't get a laugh. Some people... He covered all the problems he's been having in CA, all the problems with certification, tracking of software being loaded onto machines, last-minute updates, etc. etc. Good stuff. During the questions section, Conny McCormack (Los Angeles County Clerk and Registrar) made a snide comment about a "tiny vocal minority making false claims." Shelley took strong issue with that comment with the first question made to him, saying that he makes his decisions based on wide-ranging sources of information, and he resented her saying that he is being influenced by a tiny vocal minority. Good stuff.

There was good theatre too. At one point Conny McCormack pulled out a 37" x 2" "paper trail", saying/implying that this was what was being advocated, and that it is too difficult for the voter or the auditor to read. LOL. I can't imagine any VVPT using a 2" spool of paper. I imagine they are looking at 8.5" spools or simply 8.5x11 sheets of paper. If you figure 0.25" margins, an 8.5x11 sheet of paper is 68% larger (someone check my math...) than a 37" x 2" ribbon.

A good time was had by all.

I have a ton of materials. If your activism can benefit from a set, PM me and I will be happy to make you copies and mail them to you. But it's a LOT of stuff. It just might all be available on their web site.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. A story on this just ended on News Hour

for west coasties

[No2W2004]

2. Here is a story on yahoo...

Amid a heated debate over the merits of new touch-screen systems, the U.S. Election Assistance Commission said it hoped to develop voluntary guidelines for the electronic systems that will be used by one in three voters in November.

"At the end of the day, we can't tell districts what to do," said commission chairman DeForest Soaries at the first hearing held by the commission.

Then what's the point?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&ncid=696&e=4&u=/nm/20040505/pl_nm/campaign_voting_dc

EDIT fixed link

[MGKrebs]

3. I was *this close* to going,

but I just couldn't pull it off.
Thanks for going, and thanks for the update. Cool!

[RedEagle]

4. Gristy- Thanks for going!

From what I've heard so far, sounds like Rubin made some of his best statements yet.

And I'm very grateful that Kevin Shelley has decided it's time to take no more bull from some of the CA county election officials. In fact, I think it's time for public disclosure on all the Townsend's and McCormak's.

:yourock:

[Eric J in MN]

5. Gristy - that is good news about Minnesota. Automark

Gristy - that is good news about Minnesota. Automark seems like a good tool.

Automark lets blind people fill in the ovals of optical-scan (SAT-style) ballots.

The product is described at:
http://www.vogueelection.com/products_automark.html

[hunter]

6. "And now for something completely different..."

Thanks

:evilgrin:

[GregD]

7. Good job Gristy!

Conny is a real piece of work. A few months ago, she waved the "recall" ballot at everyone, stating "how do you get this into a printer?".

Here is an approximate image of the VVPB that Avante produces. It is smaller than some ATM receipts:
http://www.aitechnology.com/votetrakker2/overview.html

Thanks for the update.
Greg



On edit: I meant to mention that the recall ballot was the size of a typical placemat, but the VVPB for the 4 items on that ballot would have been very short. She simply needs to be replaced.

[RedEagle]

13. Thermal Printers

I think that you can get thermal printers up to 4 inches wide. I've talked to Avante about the width and I believe that that's about as wide as thermal printers come- but they're asking for wider versions.

(And I thought Avante used at least 4 inch wide paper)

Yes, the VVPB is about who you chose, not a copy of everything on the ballot, when it comes to VVPB DRE's. And Conny? Punch cards were just holes with numbers that corresponded to your vote, and only carried your choices, not the whole ballot.

What did the optical scan ballots look like for the CA recall? Wouldn't there be a limit on how big those could be and be read by the current crop of optical scan machines?

And Conny....Avante is capable of letting you print your OWN optical scan ballots. You know, cheaper than getting them from the special printing operations owned by Sequoia, ES&S, Diebold. Yes, they have thought of quite a bit. You can get the DRE for the disabled, if you believe everything HAVA says on that, and optical scan for everyone else, and have an integrated system.

But, no, got to do business with companies that are going to shaft you three ways for money- on DRE's, optical scan, (absentee and mail in voting) and printing- and still you won't be buying machines that meet the 2002 FEC standards. (In effect until something else comes along, which is beginning to look like never, especially with NIST out of the picture)

Hey Conny, the local officials have some say in what goes on a ballot and the VVPB too, so lets not blame the companies because you can't figure out how to print the results rather than the whole enchilada, even with all the support this company provides. Maybe you should talk to Connecticut officials where Avante machines worked so well.

Who coaches you in this garbage?

[BevHarris]

16. Conny is slicker than most, and she's got a surprise coming

when the minority communities in Los Angeles County tell her what's what. And it won't be long. I've been meeting with folks from both the African-American community and the Hispanic community and Los Angeles may get ugly. They use an optical scan system, by the way, and only do touch-screens for early voting, but their optical scan is home-brewed, called the "InkaVote" system, and it uses GEMS.

Hi Conny. Hi Agent Mike. Having a lovely time?

Bev

[BevHarris]

8. Thanks, Gristy

And to everyone who represented this issue so articulately.

Bev

[ParanoidPat]

9. Thank You Gristy!

Damn, sounds like all sorts of FUN! :evilgrin:

I just love my Secretary of State! :toast:

Californians, check the California State Forum and click on the Election Contact Information thread to get the Voting Machine Type & Contact Information by County for California for information on who to contact to let your representatives know what you want as far as fair elections go and how you expect your elections to be audited for safety.

You folks from Georgia can go to the State Election Information thread and click on the County Registrar & Superintendent Contact Information, Georgia link to start working on the elections officials in your state.

Washington State is up next for Andy Stephenson's Campaign site, and then here, followed by County Elections Info for Florida, Maryland and Ohio and the rest by order of importance of who needs the most prodding. (Hint! Please let me know who needs prodding NOW! :) )

The Black Box Voting.org 'Take Back the Vote' tool kit is taking shape!

Please use it contact your local officials and report any problems you may experience or suggestions you may have to me at mailto:[e-mail] so I can finalize the plan for launching this most important tool for the November elections ASAP!

If you appreciate what Bev Harris and Andy Stephenson are doing I ask that you take a moment to sign up on Bev's web site to volunteer to help keep the 2004 elections safe or if you don't have the time, by donating to Black Box Voting.org to help offset the costs of fighting this battle against unauditable elections. The entire 50 State 'Tool Kit' will be available for download from her site once it's completed.

Disclaimer: I receive no compensation for the insane hours I put into ferreting out all of the information that goes into these lists. I do this as my contribution to the cause of free and fair elections in the United States. All information and formatting is Copyleft ParanoidPat 2004 for http://blackboxvoting.org. Please feel free to distribute and use this information at will, provided that a link to Black Box Voting.org is included, as well as the feedback E-Mail address mailto:[e-mail]. Let me know where you post this info so I can send updates as I develop them.

(They're our elected representatives, I'm just trying to publish their contact info so they can better represent us! You got a problem with that Mike? :shrug: )

[hunter]

18. Another link for Californians...

California SB 1723:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_1701-1750/sb_1723_cfa_20040504_100937_sen_comm.html

Partial text, emphasis added by hunter:

SENATE COMMITTEE ON ELECTIONS AND REAPPORTIONMENT
Senator Don Perata, Chair

Pursuant to a recommendation by the Voting Systems and
Procedures Panel, the Secretary of State recently withdrew
certification for the AccuVote-TSx voting system
manufactured by Diebold Elections Systems, Inc. This
system was used in Kern, San Diego, San Joaquin and Solano
counties. Additionally, the Secretary of State also
withdrew certification of all other DRE's in use in
California but simultaneously issued the conditions for
their recertification: either install a voter-verified
paper trail before November, or meet specified security
measures. The conditional recertification applies to the
DRE's used in Alameda, Merced, Napa, Orange, Plumas,
Riverside, San Bernardino, Santa Clara, Shasta, and Tehama
counties.

PROPOSED LAW :

This bill, an urgency measure, would provide that no city
or county may use any form of direct recording electronic
device (DRE) as part of its voting system for the November
2, 2004, general election.

It is important for everyone here at Democratic Underground to recognize this isn't about "Republicans stealing elections" or anything like that. There are many people of all political persuasions who are joining this fight for clean elections.

For too many years now we have been complacent about our election procedures. In many places corrupt or incompetent people are counting our votes.

[dusty64]

10. Isn't that kathy cox?

What did that hack have to say? :kick:

[gristy]

12. Sorry, I misidentified her.

It was Kathy Rogers, but she is Dir of GA Elections Commission, not SOS. My bad.

[lcooksey]

11. Thanks for that excellent report! (nt)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Was this the same presentation where a guy got up and said

that he had seen ballot boxes with holes in the bottom? (Insinuating that we would lose votes by receipts falling out of the boxes). Heard this on NPR this morning. Hey pal, maybe, gee I don't know, you could get a plastic ballot box or something. :freak:

[RedEagle]

15. For all the Things they come up with about Paper....

...fraud potential with computers wins by miles.

Here's the drill again:

Can we totally eliminate voting fraud?
Probably not.

Can we mitigate the potential?
Absolutely yes.


They want you to focus on paper, away from computers.

Paper is not condusive to statewide or nationwide fraud like computers can be.

[alfredo]

17. Help needed

I need a list of voting equipment including machines for the disabled. I need to send this to my county clerk. I also need to send this to refute what Mitch McConnell's ASSertion that anything other than the black box machines would disenfranchise the blind.

[gristy]

19. Your country clerk needs to get out more...

ES&S has bought Vought Election Systems. They have a machine which assists the blind/disabled in printing out a ballot. MN is adopting this system and dovetailing it with their existing paper-ballot/optical-scan system. Search ES&S and/or Vought Election Systems in Google.

[RedEagle]

20. Thanks to all who went to the EAC meeting

I can't begin to thank the people who are getting out and getting this issue noticed, when events like this show up in their area.

Thanks to all!

Voting machines (DRE's) that do VVPB and allow disabled access:

Accupoll
(Audio prompt for visually disabled with audio review. I think Accupoll has a bar code pen that will read back bar code on the ballot to the visually disabled)

Avante
(Audio prompt and the review for the ballot comes from the feed to the printer)

TruVote
(Know less about this but should have the same audio capabilities)

Vogue (Now with ES&S)
(Optical scan ballot marking DRE. Counted like other optical scan ballots and would have to have the audio review capability)


All these machines have the same abilities for the disabled a non VVPB DRE's- PLUS the voter verified paper ballot, to insure we are not ALL disenfranchised)

[alfredo]

21. Great info. Thanks.

I will take these down to the County clerk's office.

got to go down there to get voter registration cards.

[RedEagle]

22. This is how we do it

It will take several election cycles but we must begin now.

And we DON'T drop this issue just because we see elections swinging the way we like.

It's bigger, much bigger, than just partisan politics.

Voter verified paper ballots and lots and lots of auditing- now and in the future.

[alfredo]

25. I am going to look into

how they do recounts and what the law says constitutes a recount.

[revcarol]

23. I am glad that this is getting nationwide publicity and some things

may happen.
but my impression was totally different. I watched some of it on C-Span 2, and YUKKO. The chair was totally against everything. She fawned over the League of Women Voters woman, who said everything was going to be peachy-keen.

Could not stand to watch it.

[Bushfire]

24. More choice quotes from this article

EAC members asked a number of questions of the panelists, the toughest consistently coming from EAC Chairman DeForest “Buster” Soaries. The former New Jersey Secretary of State gave the early indication that he would not take the four-member panel down a careful bureaucratic path. In one exchange, Soaries hammered Election Systems and Software board member William Welsh for not answering questions. Chairman Paul DeGregorio, former head of the International Federation for Election Systems, joined in as well, at one point peppering Georgia election director Kathy Rogers for details on how tallies from the state’s DREs can be recounted if the two numbers that are compared come from the same source.

more...

http://www.electionline.org/index.jsp?page=Newsletter%20May%206%202004