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How many officers spoke out against John Kerry ?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:19 PM
Original message
How many officers spoke out against John Kerry ?
In most units in Nam, there is absolutely no way 100 or 200 people would know what you were doing. In your unit, you may have your Captain and a couple of Sergeants, maybe. Maybe a Colonel and General farther up in the brigade or battalion, if you were decorated? Of course, your small unit that you would be leading would know you better than anyone. And these guys have come out with praise for their young Lieutenant. It is absolutely impossible that all these people would have known what Kerry was doing in Nam, or for that matter, what he was doing after Nam. Common sense would tell you that the ring of acquaintances would be rather small in the circmstances in which John Kerry found himself...
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. These are the same oil Bush millionaires that said John McCain
was unfit and faked his valor. These people are NOT what they say and even most of the media whores know this.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. NO ONE ON CREW SPOKE AGAINST KERRY
One of the 15 still alive will not comment - the others all support Kerry.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. one of the people in the press conference yesterday....
said he served on Kerry's boat, under Kerry's command.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Name? ..... - - - - There are only 15 so it is easy to verify.
Indeed the one fellow who has not gone public with Kerry support may indeed be the fellow at the newsconference -

But I did not see a name in the summaries of the PR event. And with the "Doctor who attended the Kerry non-wound" now shown to be a liar, one is a litlle slower to get interested in this Nixon 71 "breaking News" event.

:-)
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. sorry, I didn't catch it.
but he plainly stated that he was on the boat under Kerry's command during the Q and A.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder what...
Some of the SEALS he transported in, and pulled out of, hot areas would have to say about him?

Something good, I would imagine.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a sham, these guys are stooges of the RNC
...BushCo operatives, leftovers from the Nixon era of dirty tricksters. They need to be totally discredited and exposed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yeah, and not
one of these guys remember Bush. It's amazing that all these people remember Kerry and no one can remember serving with Bush.

I can't remember who I was in class with in 1971. I can barely remember who I dated. 200 hundred people remember Kerry? No. 200 shills for Bush are willing to say just about anything to keep their boy king in power.

MzPip
:dem:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Excellent point ! Not one person can remember serving with Dubya...
Yet, they want us to believe that 200 remember Kerry vividly? What a bunch of lowlife BS?
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brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. re:"saying just about anything".
Without exception, not one of those who spoke, seemed to be speaking their own words. I was listening without watching them - and it struck me as quite awkward ...similar to small children in a school pageant who do not fully comprehend the dialog they've been given.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I never saw the 200 name list - but the net folks are saying just about
no one listed actually said or agrees with the letter - names used without permission- then the Doctor is not the name that signed the medical report re the wounds, etc.

Seems a dozen GOP folks paid by the RNC/O'Niel (O'Niel admits paying all expenses - hotel, flights, eats).

But the Boston Globe got 2 stories out of it so far.
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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. Please, please, please debunk this
This is a huge deal. I heard it on local talk radio this morning.

Are there any websites where this has been properly debunked yet? What is the Kerry campaign doing about this?
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. it was all debunked 2 days ago
it came from the same right wing group that trashed maccain. it's phoney.
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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Link? n/t
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kind of long, but here's the story:
May 5, 2004

Swift Boat Veterans for a Big Lie

A newly formed group called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" has called upon John Kerry to release all his Vietnam service records. They also say Kerry is "unfit to be commander-in-chief."

Let's put "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" under a microscope:

1. Their call for Kerry to release his Naval records is a little odd, because, uh, Kerry's already released all his Naval records. The original documents can be downloaded from his web site here. I emailed "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" to let them know where they can find the records (although the exact words I used were slightly less polite). You may want to do the same.

2. "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" says "We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam." That's just completely false, or, more diplomatically put, "a fucking lie." "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" also says, "They all signed a letter saying he is unfit to be commander-in-chief."
Hmmm... There are 29 pages of officer evaluation reports on Kerry (scroll down to "Fitness Reports" if you want to download) that were filled out by Kerry's commanding officers while he served in the Navy. How in the world could "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" read the following descriptions from Kerry's C.O.'s as "unfit"?

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer:
A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising.

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.

December 18, 1969, evaluation from LCDR George M. Elliott:
In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career.

I could continue with more positive evaluations of Kerry's service, but quite frankly all the excellence is boring me a bit.

There aren't any negative descriptions. None.

3. Perhaps more important than Kerry's C.O. evaluations are the evaluations of the men under his command. From USA Today (a Rupert Murdoch-owned paper) :

Interviews with 18 officers and enlisted sailors who served with Kerry in Vietnam mostly portray a young leader with an aggressive command style. Many recall a warm, compassionate officer who cared deeply about his working-class crew. They also remember a warrior who ferried pregnant women and hungry villagers down river for medical care and food.

They recall how he initiated water-balloon fights to break the tension. How he asked his crew to call him "John" on the river and "sir" back at base. And how he listened to their problems in a way that foretold a career in politics.

"His concern for us was overwhelming," says Fred Short, a PCF-94 gunner's mate who would get the shakes when the adrenaline of battle wore off. "He would come around then and put his hand on your shoulder and ask if you're all right," says Short, 56, of North Little Rock "I never had another officer do that."

Even those soldiers who didn't like Kerry had respect for him:

"John was a master at looking out for John," says Larry Thurlow, a fellow boat commander. "John has never been bashful about saying, 'Man, I'm a war hero.' "

Yet, except for one crewmate, even those who felt betrayed by Kerry for later leading Vietnam Veterans Against the War and who call themselves Bush supporters acknowledge that he showed courage under fire. "He was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point," Thurlow says.

Stephen Gardner is the one guy who served alongside Kerry who has negative things to say about his courage under fire (some "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" guys claim they "served with" Kerry, but actually I think it would be more accurate for them to say they served "around the same time," and perhaps on a different planet, than Kerry did):

Stephen Gardner, a gunner's mate on PCF-44, spoke out for the first time last month after hearing conservative radio commentator Rush Limbaugh question Kerry's war credentials. Gardner, who says "this country's in a world of trouble" if the Democrat is elected president, calls Kerry a "hesitant" commander who shunned danger.

Gardner, 56, claims Kerry retreated during a firefight under the pretense that he wanted to get Gardner medical attention. "It was a panic run," says Gardner, who calls his wound superficial. While he refuses to call Kerry a coward, he recalls "a guy who was protecting himself most of the time."

That view does not square with the recollections of eight other enlisted sailors who served with Kerry and were interviewed for this story. Kerry and other PCF-44 veterans say the shooting was over when they turned back to base.

"I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says.

"I have no idea where he's coming from," Kerry says of Gardner.

Rassmann also dismisses the idea of a cautious Kerry. He says he is alive today because of Kerry's courage during a vicious battle in March 1969. The special forces soldier had been blown off PCF-94 by a mine that also injured Kerry's right arm. Swimming in the river while being strafed from both banks, Rassmann was convinced he was about to die before Kerry's boat returned. As the soldier struggled to climb scramble nets draped over the boat's bow, Kerry reached down with his uninjured arm and pulled him on board.

"He was frankly nuts coming up to the bow and exposing himself" to the barrage of bullets and mortars, Rassmann says.

4. Okay, so who's behind "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth"? Two really terrific guys. Meet...

Roy Hoffman

Rear Admiral Hoffman (ret.) was a Captain who headed up a Coastal Surveillance Force unit under which Kerry served. Douglas Brinkley writes about him on pages 177 and 178 in Tour of Duty:

...The new commander, hawkish Captain Roy Hoffman was ecstatic about Sealords. He knew that military reputations were made in wartime, and he was determined to make his in Vietnam. What's more, he had a genuine taste for the more unsavory aspects of warfare, and truly wanted to smoke the Viet Cong out of their tunnels, burn their jungle outposts, and annihilate them once and for all. Decades later, many Swift boat veterans under Hoffman's command would compare him with the rough-hewn colonel in the movie Apocalypse Now who boasted that he "loved the smell of napalm in the morning." In short, Captain Hoffman sought to convince his Swift boat skippers to do whatever it took to notch splashy victories in the Mekong Delta and thereby get him promoted.

Kerry would never forget how ardently Captain Hoffman lauded the exploits of one "enterprising officer" from the Danang Swift division. The officer had surprised some thirty Vietnamese who were fishing in round, floating baskets just off the shore of a peninsula in an area that was, unfortunately for them, a free fire zone. Hoffman considered it ideal military thinking that the Swift skipper had shown the presence of mind to sneak his boat in between the baskets and the shore, cutting the fisherman off from escape and then opening fire on them. All the baskets were sunk, and so were the fishermen. "Fantastic," Hoffman reportedly proclaimed upon hearing the news. Kerry himself would later hear Hoffman praise such "industriousness" at a remarkable meeting in Saigon. Clearly, the Navy had undergone a sea change. Not only were cowboy antics on the rivers of Vietnam no longer frowned upon, they were rewarded with medals.

Sounds like one hell of an American.

Months ago, Hoffman told The Boston Globe that Kerry was a problem and asked to get more specific he said:

"He was just going off on excursions that were not part of the plan at the time." But Hoffman said those problems were corrected and that he admired the gutsy way Kerry later went after the enemy.

It sounds like Hoffman values ingenuity less than gutsiness, and perhaps discretion least of all.

The other "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" point person is...

John O'Neill

After Kerry made a mark as an anti-war veteran in 1971, he earned a spot on Nixon's enemies list. On the Nixon tapes, White House special counsel Charles Colson can be heard assuring Nixon that "We'll keep hitting him , Mr. President." In addition to putting Kerry under FBI surveillance, Colson and Nixon recruited clean-cut Vietnam vet and toe-the-line right-wing ideologue John O'Neill, who had an hour-long meeting with the President in which Nixon coached him to "Give it to him, give it to him." I've seen a picture of O'Neill and Nixon sitting in front of that White House fireplace. I suppose O'Neill saw his "Kerry character assassination" assignment from Nixon as a 33 year gig.

Although O'Neill had taken over Kerry's Swift boat command after he left Vietnam, before they met on a Dick Cavett Show debate he had never seen Kerry in person. But he despised him. He admonished Kerry everywhere for standing up against Nixon: "The President does our talking for us, as with most Americans. Mr. Kerry certainly does not."

33 years ago O'Neill wanted everyone to shut up so Richard Nixon could lay down the law, just as I'm sure he'd like to crush all dissenting voices to Bush's today. John Kerry stood up then to Nixon, and he stands up now to Bush.

According to Brinkley, O'Neill "truly believed in the U.S. incursions into Cambodia and Laos." That's pretty much all you need to know about the guy, that he would provide unwavering support for a war in Cambodia that was not only blatantly illegal, entirely secret, and abhorrently inhumane, it was also a complete tactical failure. It accomplished absolutely nothing except multiples of thousands of deaths of poor Cambodians. I can't even begin to understand somebody whose ideology is so unclean that he can see goodness in that. You could take a stroll with O'Neill and spot some dogshit and he'd try to convince you that it was a delicious green apple.
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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. This is fantastic
Is it on a web site?
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Blog, I guess. Here ya go:
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. here's more: Veterans Attack Kerry On Vietnam
There were also reports on this on ABC's evening news.

snip

That's the same John O'Neill who debated Kerry about Vietnam on "The Dick Cavett Show" in 1971. Back then he was handpicked by the Nixon administration to discredit Kerry.

The press conference was set up by the same people who tried to discredit John McCain when McCain faced George W. Bush for the Republican nomination in 2000.

It's the same strategy used to go after Georgia Sen. Max Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam.

"That sticks in my craw, and it ought to stick in yours, because if you don't go to war, don't throw rocks at those who did," said Cleland.

The Bush-Cheney campaign quickly denied any part in today's news conference. The Kerry campaign was just as quick to say they were behind it.

"It smells like another dirty trick from the Bush-Cheney machine," said Vietnam veteran Wade Sanders.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/04/eveningnews/main615566.shtml
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Thanks for posting that...
I particularly like this shameful review from a commanding officer:

"A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising."

My god... he's unqualified to be a leader!!
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Oddman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. It is all crap . . .
even the neocons know it . . .They can't ride this story because it keeps bringing up what a coward the shrub is . . .




“I is sorry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .that we got caught!”


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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I just horked up an ADENOID from those pictures!!!!!!!!
seriously.....those need to go EVERYWHERE, and PRONTO!!!!

funniest/sickest thing I've seen since.....who knows?
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