You idiots dissing Tillman do know that he died in Afghanistan dontcha?

[trumad]

Oh but he died for Oil,,,no he died for Halliburton, no no no...he died for the Neo-Cons... Oh he ain't shit cause he kills little kids, and women....

I'm guessing there are a couple of fringe knuckleheads here on DU who think that Osama had nothing to do with 9/11? Oh I know...they'll come back and say we enabled Osama! OK..SO... Do we just shake his hands and say even steven? Bygones? OR do we take the Mother Fucker out? Now I know that Dubya's done a half ass job taking the Mo Fo out... But when Tillman went in he went in to take the MoFO out so the MOFO couldn't kill 3000 innocent civilians again.

Sorry..but those who Diss Tillman for his service in Afghanistan stand with Osama... And that's my fucking humble opinion!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Tell that to Ted Rall. Rall has no credibility and is a shameless..

scum bag. Now he is the Ann Coulter of the left!

:puke:

[frank frankly]

2. blaming the troops en masse is a mistake on many levels.

we cannot repeat the mistakes of some of the Anti-Vietnam protestors.

[TX-RAT]

4. I'm afraid it's to late

I'm already hearing the same old shit I heard in 69.

[seemslikeadream]

13. Yes a bit

but we all know who the real enemy is.

[Maine-i-acs]

3. Thanks Trumad!

Tillman was a soldier who died honorably trying to end terrorism.

I don't even care if he was a football player - I hold soldiers in higher regard than sports professionals, and I am teaching my children to respect men and women in military uniform.

Trashing them after they die isn't respect by any means.

Focus the aggression on the bozos in charge ... bin Laden and *.

[candy331]

15. Just seems to me he could have

used his life and resources to do so much more. This country and world is ailing and terrorism is only one problem. A person only has one life to give but with life one can do much giving. I simply say he had more to give by remaining alive than choosing to die. Living in this hell of a world is the hard thing, dying is the easy thing, simply a one time act that can never be repeated. No offense to anyone who has a different view.

[Maine-i-acs]

25. Too rich or too famous to serve?

Let some other poor unknown fellow die instead?

I say having a semi-famous fatality has brought on some new awareness about the real war on terror that got schlepped to the side to focus on Saddam who had nothing to do with 9-11 ...

And I'd say he didn't choose to die ... in fact he'd much rather be alive. He chose to serve his country. It would have been easier for him to live here and count his millions actually.

No offense ... just offering a counterpoint.

[H2O Man]

28. It's simply not your choice.

You are in no position to judge if he could have, or should have, lived his life differently, so that it would meet your approval or expectations. That's the attitude of the far-right, who seem to think they know better than others how those same others should live .... and die. Honor this young man, by not allowing yourself to make this error in thinking again.

[tom_paine]

5. I agree with you, trumad

The Tillman-bashing was shameful and unwarranted.

I am ashamed to say that I slightly took part in it for a post or two until I stopped, thought about it, and came to my senses.

Well said, trumad.

[Pastiche423]

6. "...who think that Osama had nothing to do with 9/11?"

For two plus years, I have been waiting for proof of OBL's part in the September 11, 2001 attacks.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, show us all, here, right now, on this board, your proof!

How come only you have seen the proof?

[vi5]

10. I seem to remember one of the videotapes....

....where even independent arab translators confirmed that he was talking about how it (9/11) had gone even better than they had planned. that they thought it would cause damage but that they hadn't planned on the towers falling.

[Pastiche423]

16. Was that the fat Osama or the skinny one?

Either way, the tapes have been debunked for well over a year.

[vi5]

23. Then right back at you....debunked by who?

If you have the articles on that I'd be more than happy to read them.

[rumguy]

11. He's admitted to it - from out of his own mouth comes your proof

[Pastiche423]

21. lol

Link, please?

When did this happen? Was it at the same time as the debunked tapes?

If it happened, why wasn't it front page news?

For cripe's sake, pay attention!

THERE WAS BEEN NO, NONE, NADA, ZILCH EVIDENCE OF OBL'S GUILT!

[tandot]

30. Pastiche423, where is YOUR link? Why isn't "OBL not guilty" front page

news?

There are tapes with OBL talking about how successful their attack on the twin towers was.

Why don't you tell us who else did it?

[Pastiche423]

44. "Why isn't "OBL not guilty" front page?"

Because - there - has - been - no - investigation?

There has been no proof given, EITHER WAY, to the citizens of the United States of America as to who attacked our soil on September 11, 2001.

Sheesh, don't you read? The tapes were debunked shortly after they were aired.

Before I make up my mind as to who attacked us, I need proof, not propaganda.

[mmm]

49. Exactly: There has been no investigation

IndyMedia cast serious doubt on the Osama tapes
within days of their miraculous discovery.
I have yet to see one shred of damning evidence tying
Osama to 911.

[WoodrowFan]

54. snicker

You BELIEVE Indymedia? Say, want to buy a bridge, I have several nice ones to sell you. Sheesh. The 9-11 nuts are as bad as creationists.

[MidwestTransplant]

7. Who cares where he died

He was a soldier doing his job and we should thank him. It's not his choice to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan. He can't control who the President is.

[bryant69]

8. This is a good point

And I agree with you--particularly the last line.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Az]

9. Its wrong to dis anyone that gave their life if you don't know their mind

This is the thing that is really bugging me about these people. They presume they can know what drives a person to make the descisions they do in their life. Who knows. Maybe he decided to go to try to limit the harm by breathing compassion into his fellow soldiers. Sure, its far fetetched but the prolem is we don't know his mind on the matter.

[Bluebear]

12. Thanks for that message. I believe truly...

that people were more upset that Tillman was so exalted in the press and was quickly becoming a right wing poster boy for America and war and apple pie whilst hundreds of nameless bodies were coming into Dover under the cloak of secrecy and photography bans.

The entire war has impacted those who serve and their families beyond what anyone could imagine. The Lynndie England-types aside, they have my thanks and respect.

[DemMother]

14. This story puts it in perspective...

"Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.

"Pat isn't with God,'' he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead.''"

Read the whole column...
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

[JAbuchan08]

20. Righteous! Dudes!

I still don't know what his politics were (I get the feeling he wasn't too conservative), but I definitely get a good feeling about him from this article. I think the mistake that a lot of people make is thinking that joining the military is an automatic endorsment of Bush's policies. It's not.

[Cronus Protagonist]

33. Thanks for posting that. Very good story. He's fucking dead.

eom

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Sean Reynolds]

17. I agree, If we bash Tillman for his services...please, let us attack Kerry

Because he too was fighting in a war that saw the death of kids. A war against a pointless enemy. Yes, if Tillman is such a fuck for being in the military (which he may be) so is John Kerry!

Don't be two-faced here people.

[GainesT1958]

18. I commented to my wife's aunt the other day...

That a symbol of what a quagmire Iraq has become was expressed--inadvertently by me--when one of my first thoughts upon hearing of Pat Tillman's death was "At least he died in Afghanistan...fighting a REAL enemy!":-(

Pat Tillman was killed fighting representatives of our true enemies; the troops in Iraq are dying fighting enemies that never should have been; those created like straw men by the arrogant liars "leading" our nation.

Their deaths should never have happened in the first place; while his should not have, either, he was fighting back for us against a cunning enemy; they were fighting an enemy--and in a war--made up virtually of whole cloth. As Gen. Clark said, "The wrong war at the wrong time."

And therein lies the sadness of the whole thing.

God bless Pat Tillman...the REAL thing!

B-)

[Trinity]

19. erm, I missed something, who the hell is dissing him?

Link please. Ted Rall did? again Link please.

now My opinion. Tillman died fighting for his country and of course is worthy of hero status.. but no more than any other soldier who died in Afghanistan or Iraq and I agree with people who dislike America's Patriarchal Sportsperson Hero worship and if not for Nightline an alien visiting America would think that Tillman was the ONLY one who died overseas :shrug:



maybe it's just me, cause I really don't know shit :eyes:



Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[GumboYaYa]

22. "....stand with Osama."

Allright then Herr Ashcroft. I guess no one is entitled to question the wisdom of bombing rubble into dust all the time killing more innocent civilians while we let Osama escape. Sorry, but there are a vast array of options between bombing the hell out of innocents and supporting Osama. I'm surprised to see such shallow Freeper illogic here at DU.

[ieoeja]

38. And what would those options be?

How about putting soldiers on the ground where they can see who it is they are shooting at? Oh ... wait ... that was exactly what Tillman was doing.

So I guess you have a problem with that as well. So now what? Maybe we should have sent Osama a nice Hallmark card asking him to surrender himself.

[GumboYaYa]

47. Let's start with the fact that the Taliban approached the Bush administrat

before the invasion and offered to turn over Osama Bin Laden if the US would provide them with proof that Osama had been responsible for 9/11. The Bush administration refused to discuss this with the Taliban. It certainly seems a lot easier, less costly, and more effective to have pursued this alternative successfully. I think it was worth a few weeks effort, but that never happened. Instead we elected to bomb a bunch of innocent people (creating more anger against the US) as we let Osama flee to Pakistan. Hell, we may be better off to have simply done nothing than to take the path chosen.

[leftofthedial]

24. let's see, I'm am idiot who stands with Osama

Nice to meet you too.

Tillman went in and got busy blowing up wedding parties and making Afghanistan safe for the warlords and opium growers again in order to get Osama, who isn't even in Afghanistan?

And meanwhile we're buddies with Pakistan, where we aren't, and Osama probably is, so that Pakistan will be free to provide shelter for what's left of the central al Qaeda organization, proliferate nuclear weapons, and perpetuate a military dictatorship and the most rabid anti-western form of Islam anywhere outside of Riyadh.

Sorry. Rall is right. Tillman was an idiot. Killed while jerking his jingoistic rah rah Murkan pud to no particular purpose except to be a place holder until after the bushgang subjugates Iraq and can once again focus their attention on the Afghan pipeline.

Fascist leaders are evil, evil men, but it is the Tillmans who are willingly pulling the triggers that are killing people in this phony "war."

And BTW, you know Osama killed 3000 innocent civilians exactly how?

[Trinity]

27. Never mind

:shrug:


Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[Sean Reynolds]

37. I agree! This is why we can't vote for Kerry!

He did the EXACT same thing in Vietnam!

Kerry enabled Vietnam!

[ieoeja]

40. That Tillman carried one helluva' rifle!

Tillman went in and got busy blowing up wedding parties...


Funny me. I thought that was done by air. I didn't realize it was an infantry assault.

[mmm]

41. I have more respect for reasoned refusenicks than for Tillman

An unjust war is a war not worth fighting.
He may have seen himself as a patriot, but he is no hero.
(Did he kill any innocent Afghans? If so, why?)

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treepig]

31. this is the afghanistan of late 2001:

from http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanistan_CIA_Taliban.html

The U.S. war on Afghanistan is a brutal attack on a country that has already been almost destroyed by more than 20 years of foreign invasion and civil war.' The Soviet occupation, which lasted from 1979 to 1989, left more than a million people dead. Millions still live in refugee camps More than 500,000 orphans are disabled. Ten million land mines still litter the country, killing an average of 90 people per month. At 43 years, life expectancy in Afghanistan is on average 17 years lower than that for people in other developing countries. The countryside is devastated and is currently experiencing a severe drought, with 7.5 million people threatened with starvation. The death and destruction wrought by the U.S. bombing campaign-and the cut off of food aid deliveries it has caused-have already killed hundreds and produced thousands more refugees scrambling to escape into Pakistan.

But not only is Washington attacking one of the poorest countries in the world, past U.S. government actions are in no small part responsible for the current situation in Afghanistan. The Bush administration claims to be targeting Osama bin Laden, who it says masterminded the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (even though it has offered no concrete evidence to back up this accusation), and Afghanistan's Taliban government, which is sheltering him. But as the Economist magazine noted soon after September 11, " policies in Afghanistan a decade and more ago helped to create both Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." An examination of this history will reveal the extent to which U.S. foreign policy is based on hypocrisy, realpolitik, and the short-term pursuit of narrow interests.

since mr. tillman is emphatically not an idiot, i can only conclude that he went over to afghanistan with his eyes wide open, seeking to advance the u.s.a's agenda of terrorist-creating activities. (and he and his co-patriots definitely have done that, what with killing children and bombing wedding parties and all that - there'll be a whole new generation of terrorists attacking in 20 years or so). no, since he's not an idiot and didn't innocently and naively get involved in the usa's decades long campaign against the afghan people, perhaps a better label for him would be villian?

[redqueen]

34. No, he's an innocent little baby

Just like all the other adults in this country who can't be expected to educate themselves.

They're just innocent little babies who don't deserve to be criticized.

[ieoeja]

43. US is evil.

So according to you we were evil when we did nothing while the Taliban was consolidating their power. And we're evil when we root the Taliban out.

If we help, we are interfering for our own insidious purposes and therefore evil. If we don't help, we are ignoring someone's plight and therefore evil.

There's just no pleasing some people.

[redqueen]

32. Well, first anyone that doesn't denounce Rall's comic is a 'f$#@it'

and now, according to you, they're supposedly standing 'with Osama'.

I see that the militarization of this country is nearly complete.

God help us all.

[rinsd]

50. "I see that the militarization of this country is nearly complete."

Am I to assume your John Kerry American Hero image is meant to be ironic then?

[GirlinContempt]

35. Arg

False dichotomies make me FOAM at the MOUTH
I can't even say anything, except agree with the Herr Ashcroft comment.

[DrWeird]

36. Maybe you didn't get the memo. Osama's not in Afghanistan.

The only thing we're doing in Afghanistan is shooting up weddings and blowing up Red Cross buildings.

So go back to your TV show, Mr. O'Reilly.

[ieoeja]

46. Them Wacky Generals

"General, the Taliban is reconstituting itself near the Iranian border. And a warlord near the Pakistani border has begun extoring money from the Red Cross. What should we do?"

"Send a Ranger battalion over by the Pakistani border and have them kill all of the Red Cross workers. That will eliminate that problem. As for the Taliban, have the Air Force target a celebration somewhere in the region, a wedding or bar mitzvah or something. That will show the Taliban that we mean business."

[ElkHunter]

39. I agree: Tillman is a hero

Regardless of Tillman's politics, whatever they were, he gave his life in Afghanistan fighting those who had attacked our country. Tillman's selfless heroism reminds me of an earlier generation of Americans who stood in line to enlist in the military following the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.

Some on the left need to be reminded that there are times when it is appropriate to pick up arms and fight. For instance, during the 1930's some on the left were called "premature anti-fascists" when they volunteered to pick up arms to fight fascism in Spain. Can anyone say that the Taliban was any less an evil than Franco? And with few exceptions most of the 1940's left were enthusiastic in their support for World War II.

While I certainly disagree with the war in Iraq the war in Afghanistan is altogether different. If the left is going to offer an alternative to the Bushies neoconservatism then we are going to have to learn to understand that difference.

[ulysses]

42. I want to agree with you re: Tillman

but this

Sorry..but those who Diss Tillman for his service in Afghanistan stand with Osama

is bullshit.

[Forkboy]

45. Whine whine whine

[DerekG]

48. I don't care for your tone, Trumad...

Personally, I think Tillman is a victim of jingoism, but he is no hero.

You're operating under the assumption that the war in Afghanistan was a noble effort. Do you think Bush's intention in October of 2001 was to capture Osama, and not to secure the oil reserves in the Caspian. Some of us don't discriminate between the two wars.

Question, Trumad: Do you oppose some imperialist wars, or all of them?

[stellanoir]

51. Firstly, Tillman had only been in Afghanistan for. . .

a short while. I think it was three weeks. He was promoted to special forces for his admirable performance in Iraq where he had been for much longer. So the "wedding ceremonies" criticism hardly applies.

Secondly, how come we don't have an incling of a clue about casualties in Afghanistan. . .?

What's up with that. . .?

[RPM]

52. Bush Lied - Tillman Died

N/T

[Padraig18]

53. I agree, trumad!

:thumbsup:

[Skinner]

55. Locking

Continue discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1527625