The Flag Of Disgrace

[ThomWV]

I wish someone would explain to me why it is that the Guys, and its always guys, who see themselves as the greatest patriots are the ones who proudly fly the stars and bars, the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, in the back windows of their pickups? It has always seemed to me that to revere the flag of what was clearly the enemy of the United States of America is a simple act of treason.

[rockymountaindem]

1. I agree.

I was down in Williamsburg in 2002 and I saw a truck with the Confederate flag "southern heritage" bumper sticker on it right next to a US flag "united we stand" sticker. I couldn't get over the contradiction.

[NC_Nurse]

2. A fair question

I'm a Southerner and I have never understood it.

It's just pointless, IMO. It's like announcing yourself as a redneck idiot to all who see you. Maybe that's their way of finding each other.

[raysr]

3. I quit flying

"Old Glory" when it came to mean you're a republican.

[Cascadian]

6. If you fly the flag...

just fly it upside down.


John

[happynewyear]

20. no flag flying here and for a reason

I have an old flag, that's right one that says, 'MADE IN THE USA' on it. It belonged to my late father. He wouldn't want it to be flown on a daily basis to show support for this war, or for any war for that matter and he was a proud marine. Very proud.

Our flag has a purpose. It is meant to be flown of special occasions, not every single day of the year in front of your house, that includes both day and night.

It also means that you are a Republican now. Since when? I have my flag yes I do, but I don't fly it. I keep it with my father's marine corps uniform where it belongs.

I hate seeing our flag abused. It belongs to each and every American equally.

[RoyGBiv]

4. Not this again...

And, no, it's not "always guys."

Come on out to my neck of the woods, and I'll introduce you to a hoard of "Confederated" ladies.

Ever hear of the UDC?

FWIW, I no longer display a St. Andrews Cross on anything I own. I do have Civil War related artwork that includes it. I stopped displaying it because people I respect find it offensive.

But while I'm here, I'll just note that the "treason" argument is about the weakest one anyone can come up with. Do you find those who display British flags equally offensive?

[library_max]

8. There is still such a nation as Britain. /eom

[RoyGBiv]

9. Which means what?

I was responding to the following comment:

It has always seemed to me that to revere the flag of what was clearly the enemy of the United States of America is a simple act of treason.

If we want to get really nitpicky about revering flags of those nations, political entities, "movements," or whatever you want to call it that were once or are currently the enemies of the United States and then calling that a "simple act of treason," British flags would seem to be to be high up there on the list.

And while we're at it, let's just take all those Cubans down in Florida who like to march with Cuban flags and call them traitors. Let's file treason charges against those who dare display a Japanese flag. What about those Palestinians Americans who display various flags that are clearly symbols of groups who have a stated mission to destroy "western" culture?

The key word here is "treason." Do you really want to go down that road and claim all those who display a symbol that opposes the government are guilty of treason? Seriously?

There are plenty of good reasons not to display a St. Andrews Cross in the context of a Confederate battle flag. The treason argument is the weakest, and the one that liberals should most abhor.

[library_max]

10. The Confederacy existed only as an act of defiance against the USA.

That's not true of Britain. There are any number of reasons one might fly a British flag in the US, although I've got to say that away from British embassies and consulates you don't see very many British flags here. Flying the Confederate flag is a way of saying that the wrong side won the Civil War. There's not much else it could possibly be saying. I don't go so far as to call that "treason," but it is offensive in a way that, say, the British flag is not.

[Bake]

11. No, the Brits only fucking INVADED us 200+ years ago!

With everything else going on, do we really need to argue about the fucking Confederate flag?? Really???

I'm as appalled by it as anybody, and I'M A SOUTHERNER!!!

But right now, I think we have bigger fish to fry.

Bake

[RoyGBiv]

13. Okay...

I agree with much of what you say. Again, my comment was about treason, not offensiveness, and as I said, there are many good reasons not to display with reverence the symbols of the CSA. The only reason I mention the British flag is the association with treason. In the early 19th century, displaying a British symbol would, in fact, result in a person being brandished as a traitor. I think that's wrong.

But whether the CSA still exists or not is irrelevant, imo.

On Edit: I meant to mention this originally. When I mentioned open displays of British flags, I was really thinking of the 80's and the association of many British rock groups with that flag. Admittedly this may be a silly comparison, but then I think display of symbols = treason is equally silly.

[library_max]

15. Well, then, look at it another way.

The British were our allies in World War I and World War II and, for better or for worse, in the war against Iraq. When was the Confederacy ever an ally of the USA? In the 18th Century, US courts were very far from taking the Bill of Rights entirely seriously - we had to wait until the 1950s and 1960s to sort a lot of it out.

If you want to compare flying a British flag in, say, 1820 with flying a Confederate flag now, I'm with you. Otherwise, I don't see your point.

[RoyGBiv]

18. Comparisons

The comparison I'm making is theoretical, which I'm guessing you understand. A more direct comparison would be the one you mention. The one I made was based on the idea of it being treasonous to display a symbol that was representative of an entity that was at one time the enemy of the US, which is what the original comment suggested was an indicator of treason. I find that logic absurd, so I used an absurd reduction of it.

Let me step aside a moment and make it clear I do consider those who openly waged war on the United States from 1861-65 to be traitors. Many of them recognized this as well and said so. It was only after the war that former Confederates came up with some bizarre logic to claim what they had done was not treason, and that logic made its way into what we call the Lost Cause myths.

This has little to do with my argument. Those who display Confederate symbols today have many different reasons for doing so. Many of those reasons have no defense, and I will offer none. But I also know that the so-called rebel flag is to some simply a symbol of generic resistance to the "powers-that-be." If that's treason, then a lot of us are traitors whether we displays these kinds of symbols or not.

[northzax]

14. treason is weak?

the comparison is not whether Americans fly British flags, but more similar to Britons flying American flags. However, even that is less relevant, since the United States and Great Britain have made peace, as equal sovereign states, and the UK has therefore recognised the US as an independant, sovereign state. The US never recognized the Confederacy as anything but a rebel set of states, the US never recognised the CSA as a state, or Richmond as a capital. The CSA was not, in fact, recognised by a plurality of other states, the generally accepted way to become a state. the CSA was never an independant state, it never had soveriegnty. It was no more of an independant state than Euskara or Catalonia is in Spain, or Wales is in the UK. It existed only as a rebellious group of states that were defeated. You see, the difference between succession and treason is winning the war. The winners get a state, the losers get branded as traitors. c'est la vie.

[RoyGBiv]

17. The word is "secession"

Yes, "treason" is a weak argument against the display of Confederate symbols. Nothing of what you said has any relevance to that question.

The base question with that line of argument is whether openly displaying a symbol that expresses open defiance of the government is treason. If it is, then the logic extends to many, many symbols, and I dare say a lot of what is written in this forum. If you want to adhere to that argument, fine, but at least be consistent.

This is not about a misguided reverence for the Confederacy itself. Questions of its legal status are irrelevant. As I've said several times now, there are many good reasons not to display Confederate symbols. The "treason" angle is bogus.

[northzax]

19. from your perspective, perhaps

sorry about my spelling, it's been a long week. but that's not relevant, either.

As far as I'm concerned, the only reason to fly the confederate BATTLE flag, is to show allegiance to those who fought under it. You fly the US flag, you imply you identify with what that flag stands for. You fly the hammer and sickle, you imply you identify with communism. You fly the nazi swastika, you imply that you identify with the nazi ideology. you fly the confederate battle flag, you imply you identify with what that flag stands for. and the only thing that the battle flag can possibly stand for is waging war against the United States of America. if you are an US citizen, by very definition, implying you identify with those who wage war against the US, you imply that you identify with giving aid and comfort to the enemy. That, my friend, is the very definition of treason. I refer you to Article I, Section 12 of the US Constitution, a document that, as a US citizen, you have implicitly approved of:

Treason against the state shall consist only in levying war against it, adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

I am not arguing that flying the Confederate Battle Flag, is, in fact, Treason, but it most certainly is identifying with treasonous activities. I will defend your right to fly it, under that same consitution, but don't forget that it serves to identify you with those who would haave destroyed that very same document for coarse political and economic ends.

[greatauntoftriplets]

5. I live in Chicago...

...and on Saturday, followed a vehicle with a Confederate flag decal in the window. The car had Illinois plates!

Not a pickup, but an SUV. Have never before seen one in Chicago unless it had out-of-state license plates.

:shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

16. Following the issuing of the Emancipation Proclimation

the entire 118th Illinois regiment deserted, claiming in a public statement that "we would rather hide in the woods for the rest of the war than fight for the (racial slur)".

Not everybody from the north was in favor of emancipation. That's why Lincoln was so brave for signing it.

[AlCzervik]

7. Them flying the confederate flag is

like us singing God save the Queen instead of the star spangled banner.

[FlemingsGhost]

12. Psst... The horse is dead. (n/t)

Dems

[ShaneGR]

21. Jesus, get over it

It was a 140 years ago.