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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:31 PM
Original message
Coming back from Vietnam.
My husband went to Vietnam in January of 1970...he volunteered (like Kerry). He came back a year later. I met his plane at Dulles Airport. He came off that plane with the mustache and dirty tan that set Vietnam Vets apart from everyone else. He was in uniform. We were in our early 20's. People sneared at him, some spit on him in the street. Some people just assumed that he had committed atrocities while in Vietnam because they had read about such things and assumed that everyone over there abused captives.

This is the other tragedy that will come out of the Iraqi abuse...people will lump all of these poor fighting American children together as rapists and abusers...the real rapists and abusers of Iraq will get in thier limos, make another campaign appearance, raise some more money and be off scott free.

We are a country that abuses our children and forces them to bear the consequences of our venal actions. As someone close to me says...WE NEVER LEARN.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. We were more civil as a society back then.
Now the nintendo Reagan youth will embrace them. (Hey, why DO you hate America?)

check this out, 33% can't be wrong

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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I don't think so.
I am afraid they will blame the kids and forgive the politicians. Classic denial...a few "bad apples"...not the leadership at fault.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. I don't know about that
I know that I knew little during Vietnam and will admit that the "popular" thing to do was to hold the soldiers themselves accountable. This was very, very wrong.

I feel that there are many people now who feel like we can and should blame the politicians only (although that does not discount that there are definitely a few "bad apples" among military personnel).

I heard it put so succinctly by the father of a child who was among the first to die in Iraq.

"You wouldn't let your child get in a car with a drunk driver. You would do everything you can to prevent it. My son got in the car with a drunk. His name is George Bush and he and his cronies are drunk. Drunk on power. And now my son is dead."

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good reminder, Raven.
Knee jerk reactions from the left or right never provide solutions.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You can't be against a war...
... and support troops at the same time. We need solutions to problems that don't involve troops. That's hard to take, I know, but it's true.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I will make an exception for the drafted guy -
... but the ones in Iraq - they're doing things they shouldn't be. One day they're going to have troops standing on the corners of American streets and you're going to wonder why the hell you ever supported them.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Sigh. Do we have to get into this again?
Edited on Mon May-03-04 04:27 PM by m-jean03
How many National Guard troops are over there now, how many thousands? Do you think these guys, many who signed up for all the great benefits the army offered like getting tuition paid for and job training, expected to be sent into another bogus war where the enemy dressed as civilians?

Do you think any of them were prepared for being in the situation they're in? Not everyone commits atrocities like the folks in the prison photos. And even many who do commit atrocities do so because war demands a hardening of the conscience and a deadening of the moral facilities just for survival. Others do it reflexively, reverting back to the law of the jungle -- killing whatever might otherwise kill them first.

Our troops are the victims of a corrupt government. War forces people into horrible situations... I feel intense sorrow for everyone forced to act out one role or another in these hells borne of the rich man's greed and lust for power & control.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. It's just as likely that
we're going to have another generation of VETS standing on the corners of American streets and I'm going to have tears in my eyes when I see them, wondering why the government and the so-called patriots of the right wing once again DIDN'T support them in recovering from the trauma of war.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Try this
Edited on Mon May-03-04 05:02 PM by texastoast
The new speed limit law has reduced maximum speed to 55. A cop pulls you over for speeding at 70.

Is it the cop's fault that the speed limit has been reduced? Or is the legislative body who has put the law into effect? Would you really blame the cop for enforcing a stupid law?

Or do you go after the goldhats?
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. What if the cop pulled you out of the car and stood on your neck
and beat you about the head and shoulders with his nightstick just because he was having a bad day and had the power to do that to you.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Yep, that's a bad cop.
They happen. But it wouldn't be fair to say we shouldn't support our law enforcement officers because there are some assholes who are cops. I for one am thankful for the help cops have given me when I have been in f*cked up situations.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
79. I knew you would say that
Could you answer the question I asked and then I will be happy to address this qualifying argument.
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I'm sorry Mountainman
that that happened to you or anyone else. But yours is the first firsthand account I've heard of returning vets being spit on. As I said in my other post I spent much of the sixties in San Francisco and never witnessed any GIs spit on. I also went back to college late in life (1980) and met and became friends with a lot of vets that had "got their shit sorted out" and were getting their GI bill college before it ran out. Drank a lotta beer and had many bull sessions with them and never heard first hand that any of them had been spit on. I was older than most of them but having done hitches in two branches of the military, I enjoyed a camaraderie with them and enjoyed their stories and comparisons of duty and escapades but none of them ever acknowledged being spit on.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
72. We've been over and over this before in the GD forum
to the point of exhaustion. Bottom line is that some servicemen returning from Vietnam WERE spat on, via first- and second-hand accounts (and, as progressive people, you'd think that the claims were legitimate because they're hardly complimentary to the progressive-peacenik cause)...the real bottom line is that many people are scum, and that it's not just right-wingers or hawks who fall into that category.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Are you serious?
"We need solutions to problems that don't involve troops."

War is never ending. Our children will always be sent to die on foreign soil. We are still paying the price for Vietnam and the dirty little secret war that the CIA created. Thirty years later and we haven't finished with that one yet. See post 11

Get out of Iraq now.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. I'm having trouble understanding you
you posted this in another thread,


And none of this "support the troops" thing either...


... if you support the troops you support the war - I'm sick of seeing our culture being militarized the way that it is.


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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. I couldn't disagree more. nt
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. Amazing!
I went to Viet Nam in 1967, and came back in 1968. No one sneered at me or spit on me.

I went to Viet Nam again in 1968 and came home in 1969. No one sneered at me or spit on me then either.

I went to Viet Nam again in 1969 and came home in 1970. No one sneered at me or spit on me then either.

The tan you spoke about was a tan and it was more, it was dirt and mold and sweat and blood. It took months to get most of it off, some of it never came off.

When the last tour ended I did not land at Dulles. I landed at Travis Air Force Base, north of San Francisco, was bussed down to Oakland and was released from active duty in Oakland, along with a million other tube-steaks. The gave us all new uniforms and a the money for a ticket home, which was Miami by then (althoug I am originally from the DC area myself). I sat in the San Francisco airport for close to a day just drinking before I bought a ticket. No one in San Francisco spit on me or sneered at me, no on in Miami did either.

So I am just amazed when I hear the story you tell, and I've heard a thousand other people tell it too, but I sure never saw it.

Thom
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I think you're right about
the sneering and spitting that has been talked up over the years. I spent much of the sixties in San Francisco. Anytime day or night , there were soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines walking down Market Street. NOBODY sneering or spitting.
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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Maybe the year made the difference.
By then I think people were really disillusioned.

When Redding Pitt came off the plane we went to the baggage area. In addition to his bags, his "Vietnamesem Counterparts" had given him an antique French rifle as a going away present. That came down the baggage shoot all by itself. Redding picked it up and I can;t describe the reaction of the people around him. They looked repulsed...backed away...I have said this here before - what the hell did people think he was doing over there???

I don't think many people really understood what it was like for you guys and they won't understand this war any better.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. I hear you, Raven. And I saw it too. Saw spitting on vets and on cops
There was a lot of anger and fear and many just didn't have a clue how to sort it out, express it then use it constructively. Am glad for those of you guys who didn't encounter it, but I saw it with my own eyes. I saw 'hippie freaks' spit on the "war mongers" and I saw self righteous armchair quarterbacks spit on vets and call them "losers". I saw it and it made me ashamed of my people.

I still know vets who people shun even to this day, just cuz they are Vietnam vets and likely to 'flip out' at a moments notice and the slightest provocation. I have met a few who managed to grin at that and then use it to their benifit... be nice, I'm a crazy vet....

And it will happen again. The denial is as great or even greater now. Many people who don't like what is going on will use vets as scapegoats for their angst, fear, disgust and guilt at letting it happen.

How did that song go?
When will they ever learn
When will we ever learn/


Be warned, America, the returning troops will not be the same sweet sons and daughters you sent off to Cheney's War.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
23.  'hippie freaks' spit on the "war mongers"? AND armchair quarterbacks spit

gosh, were the 'armchair quarterbacks' in their armchairs while spitting?

when did this all happen?

today, my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam, May 3rd.....it is shameful to put out such crap on this day....

here...these people DIED for a LIE on May 3rd...my cousin is listed here....and to push out MORE LIES today is just totally uncalled for...

On this day in 1966...

WILLIAM EUGENE JR TUCKER CHARLES ROBERT TRESCOTT
JAMES DOUGLAS STOKES JOSEPH ALLE SCHWERDTFEGER
BERNARD JAMES RODZEN FRED LEWIS RICHARDSON
JOHN MICHAEL PHILLIPS JOSEPH ANTHONY JR PECORA
ANGELO FRANCIS MICHELLI VIRGIL LINDQUIST
ANTONINE GEORGE KOCIPER DOUGLAS JACKSON
EDDIE RAY DERRITT RICHARD GEORGE ENGE

On May 03,
178 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1966,
14 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1967,
70 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1968,
39 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1969,
21 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1970,
21 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1971,
5 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.

On this day in 1972,
8 service members made the ultimate sacrifice.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I actually saw instances where it happened, I also got some of the spit
Sorry about your cousin. Sorry about all of the deaths and injuries.

And sorry that some will not accept that others had experiences which were painful.

Am I here bashing you and your pain at the expereinces you had personally? Do me the favor of not telling me what my personal esperiences were. I wasn't with you. You weren't with me. Yet I allow that your experiences are real. Why can't you allow that others saw different reactions?

If you don't actually expereince something, the other person is lying if they relate they have a different history than your personal one? Boy, that is a pretty narrow perspective you come from.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. sooooo, no answers to any of my questions ?.....

what street(s) did the 'spitting' occur on?

was your husband in uniform at the time of the 'spitting'?

you seem to have broadened 'spitting' now from ONE instance to a plural "INSTANCES"....


first post: "some spit on him in the street"

now: "I actually saw instances where it happened, I also got some of the spit"



since these 'spitting instances' are so vivid in your mind, please recount them for us, in honor of my cousin, who was KILLED in Vietnam today, May 3rd, in 1966....and I have posted that documentation right off the Virtual Vietnam Wall in several places on DU today....so please answer my questions, since I am very concerned about these 'spitting INSTANCES' and simply request more details....

was there any witnesses to these multiple 'spitting instances'?

do you think it's foolish to spit on a hardened combat Veteran, returning from a war zone?

what was your husband's response to the 'spitting instances'?

how many people were flinging spit, and did the same spit hit you and your husband at the same time, or was spitting on YOU a separate instance and/or separate spitter?

my cousin would certain have wanted these 'spitting instances' clarified, since he DIED for a LIE today May 3rd in Vietnam.... it's time to put the LIES away....so my questions are not about your feelings, but simply a clarification of what happened....I look forward to your ANSWERS....
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Sorry, have other duties besides jumping when you snap your fingers
Saw it happen:
Long Beach Calif where it really surprised me as most of the community was very pro military.

Ventura, also surprised me cuz it was a pretty laid back place.

Orange County, that was where a friend in uniform was spit on and called a 'loser'. Not really surprising as there were a lot of right wing fanatics there even back then.

Not my husband, friends. My, you sure make a lot of assumptions don't you! Hate to break it you you, but you don't know everything.

You know, if everyone thought only their own personal experiences were the only valid ones, we would be a sorry and short lived species.

And mocking my method of turning a phrase such as I did when I referred to yellow bellied chicken hawks who were all in favor of sending people to South East Asia so long as they had protection from having to serve themselves as 'armchair quarterbacks' does not make an argument. It is called euphemism.

You have your experiences. Other people had other things happen to them. You cannot say what is true in another's life just because it didn't happen to you or because you don't have the capacity to go beyond your own experience. I suppose nothing that you did is real because the rest of us didn't do it just like you? How about this extension of your logic: You, sir, do not exist because I have never seen you.

Frankly, I think you protest WAY too much on this issue. Have noticed it before. It makes you pretty aggressive and intense about denying the truth of something someone else has first hand knowledge of. Or, are you god and know all/see all?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #31
73. Fruitcake
Talk about living ina black and white world. If your experience doesn't match mine, or the stories I've heard, you're a liar. Yeah, right -- sounds really progressive, does that attitude.

Whether morons back hom spat on returning soldiers, at certain times and places, is in no way related to the loss of your relative or to the loss of others in that conflict. The comparison is insane, and in making the truth conditional like that you've just perpetrated quite a LIE yourself.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. On 07 June 1969 (while I was there), a (distant) cousin of mine was ...
Edited on Mon May-03-04 05:52 PM by TahitiNut
... killed in Vietnam. He was an E-5. I was an E-5. We had the same first two initials and last name. We were there as the same time. And we didn't even know it.

He's on panel 23W.
I'm not.

I was spit at/on.
He wasn't.

Deal with it.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
39. Lucky you then.
I lived with a man who hated the soldiers of Vietnam and would not serve them a drink had they walked openly into his bar.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
53. 3 tours? You have guts. I also never saw abuse...
...and though I protested against the war, could not fault those who enlisted or were drafted. Great post, ThomWV. My guy is a Vietnam vet. He won't tell me much about it, though. I know why. But he is here, and that is what is important.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. "We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories

of that service as easily as this administration has wiped their memories," Kerry told members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


Bush couldn't care less about soldiers or Iraqis


"I think the way I characterized it at that time was mostly the voice of a young, angry person who wanted to end the war," Kerry told CNN's Candy Crowley in an interview broadcast on Thursday's anniversary of his Senate testimony.

"I regret any feeling that anybody had that I somehow didn't embrace the quality of the service. But I have always said how nobly I think every veteran served."

The senator concedes he wouldn't say the same things in the same way today, that talk of "atrocities" back then was over the top. Yet, he insists he's still proud he stood up against the war. While he has regret for the words he chose, he defends the legitimacy of the sentiment he so starkly articulated.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/23/kerry.vietnam/
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. And we still have promises to keep for that war
Laos - 2004 Anuual Report


The arrest of two European journalists for investigating the situation of the Hmong ethnic minority drew international attention to the lack of freedom in Laos, where the news media take their orders from the authorities. A press law announced in 2001 has still not been adopted.

The 15-year prison sentences received by reporters Thierry Falise and Vincent Reynaud drew the world's attention to the obstacles to foreign press coverage of the plight of Laos' Hmong ethnic minority. An international outcry forced the authorities in Vientiane to release the two journalists but their Laotian guides remained in prison and were allegedly mistreated.
Directly controlled by the information and culture ministry, the Laotian press gave a very one-sided account of the case of the two European journalists. The French-language weekly Le Rénovateur was the only publication to give both sides of the story, and it was immediately censored. The government news agency Khaosan Pathet Lao (KPL) is the only news organisation that is allowed to express a view on sensitive issues.
The party newspaper Paxaxon (People) bills itself as a "revolutionary publication written by the people and for the people which serves the revolution's political action." Journalists are civil servants in the employ of the information and culture ministry. The foreign ministry also has a say in media content. Criticism of the "friendly countries," especially the Vietnamese big brother and Burma, is banned.
To escape the propaganda, many Laotians are in the habit of watching Thai TV stations that can be received in border areas, including the capital. The authorities have never tried to put a stop to this. Similarly, the international radio services that broadcast in Lao, especially Radio Free Asia and Radio France Internationale, have never been jammed. On the other hand, foreign journalists who enter on a press visa are watched closely and are banned from visiting some parts of the country. The authorities control the only Internet operator and block some news websites and sites operated by dissidents based abroad.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10197


Hmong leader in Calif. may be target of violence in Minnesota

Associated Press

ST. PAUL - Authorities are looking for connections among a spate of violent incidents directed against local Hmong leaders affiliated with Gen. Vang Pao, a California resident regarded as the most influential Hmong leader in the United States.

The incidents include a firebombing at the suburban St. Paul home of the general's son, a drive-by shooting at the home of his translator, a suspicious fire at a St. Paul social service agency the general founded, and a reported hit list that includes a veteran St. Paul police officer.

Star Tribune of Minneapolis in its Sunday editions. Rumors are swirling about what's behind the violence, which the Star Tribune of Minneapolis reported in its Sunday editions. Popular theories include communist agents, political divisions or the opening shots in a war of succession in the Hmong community.

"I believe there is something going on in a more general way," said Steve Young, former dean of the Hamline University law school and a close adviser to Vang, who lives outside Los Angeles. "These are not isolated incidents. Somebody is doing something."

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/politics/8574361 ...


gen. vang pao is a liar
Base: military
Re: My war too (Rose)
Re: WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW (your own people)
Re: i think... (kasey)
Re: General VANG PAO>>>??? (Alexis)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:01:18 GMT
From: yang_racers@yahoo.com (unknown yang)

vang pao is a liar who don't care about no one but himself. lets just face it, he is hmong and hmong men are are full of it. it was because of him lying to our parents in Laos that led to the death of over 108,000 hmong peoples. Two of thos people were my brothers. My dad lost his whole family and everyone else he cares for. General "coward" is not helping the hmongs in the usa neither the ones back home. he uses all the money he gets on gambling and the us lets him have 8 wives just because he was a dog to the americans who brainwashed the HMONGS to actually take part in th war just to die for the americans. A "TRUE LEADER" survives with all his people or die trying.

http://knossos.shu.edu/HyperNewsV/get/vp/military/66/4/16/1/2.html


US WI: Sen. George Asks UW For Probe On Vang Pao

URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n809/a09.html
Newshawk: Drug Policy Forum of Wisconsin www.drugsense.org/dpfwi/
Votes: 0
Pubdate: Sat, 27 Apr 2002
Source: Capital Times, The (WI)
Copyright: 2002 The Capital Times
Contact: tctvoice@madison.com
Website: http://www.captimes.com /
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/73
Author: Pat Schneider


SEN. GEORGE ASKS UW FOR PROBE ON VANG PAO

State Sen. Gary George is calling on UW-Madison Chancellor John Wiley to order an investigation into allegations by a UW-Madison professor that the commander of the CIA's secret army in the Vietnam War - now a leader of refugee Hmong in the United States - engaged in drug trafficking in Laos.

The allegations, 30 years old, resurfaced this month, enraging the refugee community.

"We will seek the truth and follow that path wherever it leads," George said Friday at a news conference at the State Capitol packed with Hmong veterans and supporters of Gen. Vang Pao.

Professor Alfred McCoy wrote about his findings on the role of Vang Pao and the CIA in drug trafficking in southeast Asia in a 1972 book, "The Politics of Heroin."

McCoy said the U.S. government assisted Vang Pao in bringing opium, an important cash crop for the Hmong, to heroin factories to help Vang Pao seal his leadership role and ensure a supply of fighters who waged a secret war against the North Vietnamese in Laos.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n809/a09.html


McCoy said the U.S. government assisted Vang Pao in bringing opium


Posted on Wed, Apr. 28, 2004


ST. PAUL: Crime spree on Hmong investigated

BY LENORA CHU and TODD NELSON

Pioneer Press


Authorities are trying to determine whether a connection exists between anonymous death threats leveled Monday against seven Hmong community leaders and recent crimes committed against prominent Hmong.

St. Paul Police spokesman Paul Schnell revealed Wednesday that the death threats came in an anonymous call received by a St. Paul Hmong veterans group. Local and federal law enforcement agencies are investigating the alleged hit list.

Authorities also confirmed Wednesday that an object hurled through a window sparked the arson fire that destroyed the home of Cha Vang, son of influential leader Gen. Vang Pao. Cha Vang narrowly escaped the early Sunday fire with his wife and three daughters.

A flammable substance was also found in the home, according to Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla, who declined to identify the object and substance.

Two other crimes are being investigated for possible connections. On April 20, someone fired five shots into the Maplewood home of Xang Vang, Gen. Vang Pao's translator. The following day, officials discovered someone had thrown a brick into a window and started a fire at the St. Paul offices of the Lao Family Community of Minnesota.

more
http://www.realcities.com/mld/twincities/8543732.htm



Muaj ib nqe ntawm Sen. Norm Coleman cov lus hais tias "nws yog ib qho tseem ceeb heev uas U.S. State Department yuav tsum ua txhua yam coj kom tau kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb mus rau tebchaws Lostsuas thiab pab kom tau txoj kev muaj vaj huam sib luag (humanitarian) rau haiv neeg Hmoob nrog rau daws kom tau teeb meem tsoom Hmoob tawg rog nyob rau SE Asia".

http://www.hmonglaoradio.org/default.asp?active_page_id=32

From The Wire

Rapid Fire At Home Investigated
Saint Paul Pioneer Press (April 27, 2004)

Maplewood investigators suspect an arsonist set a weekend fire at the home of a prominent Hmong community leader, who is calling the blaze a politically motivated attempt to kill him and his family.

The fire destroyed the home of Cha Vang, son of Gen. Vang Pao, one of the most widely known and influential Hmong leaders in the United States.

http://fe.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Section=WireNews&Sub ...

Cha Vang, his wife and their three daughters were asleep when the fire broke out after 1 a.m. Sunday. A noise, possibly the sound of breaking glass, prompted him to investigate and he discovered the flames toward the back of the home. He and his family escaped unharmed, but the fire left little more than the garage standing.

"If you want to terrorize a person or send a message, you slash a tire," Cha Vang said Monday. "To burn down a house with people sleeping in it is attempted murder."

Investigators said they suspect arson because the house burned so thoroughly within minutes, said Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla. Investigators searched the soot and debris for evidence for a second day on Monday.

http://fe.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Section=WireNews&Sub ...

1961
Eisenhower warns the young president-elect that Laos is a major crisis, the first "domino" in Southest Asia. The CIA begins the covert build up of Hmong forces under General Vang Pao at the beginning of the year. At the same time the U.S. sends the rightist forces to Laos six AT-6 Harvard trainer aircraft armed with machine guns and equipped to fire rockets and drop bombs. The covert PEO infantrymen are replaced by 400 clandestine U.S special forces personnel known as White Star Movile Training Teams. Kennedy announces U.S support for the sovereignty of Laos in March, directly confronting the Soviet Union. Geneva conference on Laos opens in May.

http://www.seacrc.org/pages/ravenschrono.html

http://www.ohiopowmia.com/news/2190302.html


37. COLEMAN HOSTS FIRST EVER MEETING BETWEEN HMONG LEADER


COLEMAN HOSTS FIRST EVER MEETING BETWEEN HMONG LEADER GENERAL VANG PAO AND SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL
Coleman working to alleviate humanitarian crises in Laos and streamline Hmong refugee resettlement process

January 21st, 2004 - Washington, DC - Senator Norm Coleman today hosted a meeting in his Senate office between Hmong leader General Vang Pao and Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and Pacific Affairs Matt Daley. The group, which also included Chao Ophat Nachmpassak, a member of the Lao royal family, discussed General Vang Pao's efforts to bring peace to Laos, the refugee resettlement program for Hmong in Thailand, and the humanitarian crisis facing many Hmong living in Laos.

"I have some serious concerns about the way the Hmong people are being treated today in Southeast Asia," Coleman said. "It's critical that the U.S. State Department does all it can to bring peace to Laos and an end to the humanitarian and refugee crises facing many Hmong in Southeast Asia. This meeting is a solid first step in opening up a real, meaningful diplomatic dialogue between Hmong leaders in Southeast Asia and the U.S. State Department."

General Vang Pao presented to State Department officials his vision for a lasting peace in Laos, as he publicly articulated on November 26. State Department officials listened to Vang Pao's presentation, and discussed the changing opportunities for peaceful reconciliation in Southeast Asia.

Daley, who had just returned from an official visit to the region, described the U.S. initiative to resettle in the U.S. as many as 14,000 Hmong refugees currently living in Wat Tham Krabok, Thailand

http://coleman.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&Pr ...

Hmong Proving Potent Political Organizers in U.S.
SuabHmongRadio, News Report,
Compiled and Translated by Pha Lo, Apr 30, 2004

MILWAUKEE, Wisc. -- Milwuakee is home to approximately 20,000 Hmong, a nomadic tribe that emigrated from Laos in the Vietnam War's aftermath. Here in the United States, Hmong are discovering that their traditional, clan-based system of leadership can benefit U.S.-style grassroots politicking.

Tens of thousands of Hmong left Laos in the 1970s and 1980s after losing a war in which they were covertly recruited to serve alongside the U.S. military. Here in the United States, many were naturalized as U.S. citizens after the Lao-Veterans bill, introduced in 1996, expedited the process for those who had served or been disabled in that war.

Since gaining citizenship, Hmong have begun to exercise their voting rights. This year marked a political rite of passage for Milwaukee-are Hmong who worked on Republican State Sen. Bob Welch’s campaign for the U.S. Senate. He won the Republican primary and will compete in general elections.

Wisconsin is home to approximately 40,000 Hmong.

Victor Vaj is a Hmong radio personality in Milwaukee who spent a year working on the State Senator’s campaign. For Vaj, seeing an older generation of naturalized citizen exercise voting rights fulfills a second purpose. It encourages the U.S.-born generation to use their birthright along with their traditional Hmong upbringing to pursue politics in this country.

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=9d4de22d1f...

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive
Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive


By Elizabeth Putnam
Wausau Daily Herald
eputnam@wdhprint.com

The clan system remains an integral part of Hmong culture, but the assimilation of the Hmong into American culture is threatening the system's survival.

The Hmong clans
Original 12 Hmong clans
Cha, Hang, Her, Kue, Khang, Lee, Moua, Song, Thao, Vang, Xiong, Yang
The 18 clans of today
Cha, Cheng, Chue, Fang, Hang, Her, Khang, Kong, Kue, Lee, Lor, Moua, Pha, Thao, Vang, Vue, Xiong, Yang
Sources: "Mong Education at the Crossroads," by Paoze Thao and the Hmong Cultural and Resource Center of Minnesota at hmongcenter.org



Within Hmong culture, there are 18 clans, and members of each share the same last name. The clan leaders and members provide each other with social, economic and legal assistance. They help organize social events such as weddings and offer support during difficult times, as when a family member is ill.

"I think that in the future, most of the younger children now might lose that knowledge of the clan, but that's why we need to teach or educate the kids," said Chang Yang, 36, president of the board of the Wausau Area Hmong Mutual Association.

The origin of the clan system is a mystery, according to local Hmong residents and the book "Mong Education at the Crossroads," by Paoze Thao, a professor at California State University in Monterey Bay. Thao uses an alternate spelling of Hmong in his work.

Hmong folklore tells the story of a brother and sister who married and had a child who resembled a seed. They cut it up into 12 pieces and scattered them. The pieces made people, each representing a clan. The 12 clans eventually branched out into 18 clans.

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/291782635188000.shtml

Thousands of Hmong Refugees from Laos Ready to Arrive in California
Tamara Keith
Fresno, California
08 Apr 2004, 19:28 UTC

Listen to Tamara Keith's report (RealAudio)
Keith report - Download 676k (RealAudio)

In just a few months as many as 3000 new Hmong refugees could arrive in California's Central Valley. For years they've been living in a makeshift camp at a broken-down Buddhist temple in Thailand. The Hmong people aided the United States during the Vietnam War and were forced to flee their home country of Laos as the war ended. Thousands have come to the U.S since the early 1980s, but nearly 15,000 remain on the temple grounds in Thailand. In December the State Department bowed to pressure from Hmong Americans and the Thai government and agreed to let this group of refugees immigrate. Tamara Keith reports on what Fresno community leaders are doing to prepare for the arrival.
Hmong refugee Pai Yang came to this country when she was 10 years old. Now she's the Refugee Resettlement Director for Catholic Charities in Fresno, helping families fill out the forms needed to bring their relatives over from Thailand. For Ms. Yang and others, the upcoming influx of new refugees came as a surprise. She said, "For our community this is like a very great time, a joyful time. To be able to have this opportunity to resettle in this country, to have the opportunity for education, health, etc."

On this morning, Ms. Yang is meeting with Pai-Yang Thao and her husband, who are hoping to sponsor 22 family members now living on the temple grounds in Thailand. The young couple visited the camp in December. They found it surrounded by armed guards, and the people there living with no electricity or running water.

"When we got there we felt very sad that they were living in a bad place and being caged up like animals," she said. "They can't go outside to find food and they're always waiting for us over here to send them money."

Ms. Thao can't wait for her parents, siblings, nieces and nephews to arrive in Fresno. She said that for her the reunion is like a dream come true. But, if past experience is any indication, her family will likely have a hard time adjusting to life here in the valley. Pai Yang says that when she arrived with her mother and sister in the 1980s, they struggled with the language and the culture. In Laos, her mother was a successful businesswoman, but here in California she had to pick tomatoes to make a living. Ms. Yang believes that many Hmong refugees had similar difficulties.

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=0D604918-8C63-43F1-A1BBC15...

400 protest opening trade with Laos
Minneapolis Star Tribune (subscription), MN - Apr 14, 2004
... older Hmong military veterans in camouflage fatigues and younger Hmong college students ... for the US government to pressure the communist leaders to address human ...

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199810/15_radila_reform /

Duluth's Hmong Families Find Reform Pressure
By Amy Radil
October 15, 1998 RealAudio 2.0 14.4
Part of the MPR Welfare to Work Series

DULUTH'S SMALL HMONG COMMUNITY has been steadily growing over the past ten years. Late last year there were about 175 Hmong households in Duluth on the welfare rolls. But then Minnesota moved in to welfare reform and as they themselves admit, St. Louis County and the City of Duluth Job Training forgot the city's immigrants.

Bea Larson: There was a lot of initial panic and fear and initial orientation sessions had to be redone.
Bea Larson, is an instructor at the Adult Learning Center who teaches English as a second language classes. She soon learned the county had not only sent out letters informing Hmong recipents of the changes in English alone... it was also conducting required orientation sessions exclusively in English.

Larson: Initially people were asked to sign jobs plans that they didn't understand. A number of different folks with limited English had to be re-oriented in ways that they'd understand what they were agreeing to do.
Larson contacted Gwen Updegraaf, a legal aid attorney, who met with a group of Hmong welfare recipients who told her of further problems. The Minnesota Family Investment Program, or MFIP, legislation calls for participants to receive an individualized assessment with a job counselor, who helps them formulate a plan consisting of education, training or active job seeking. Updegraaf says instead, these people had pre-printed job forms instructing them to perform 30 hours of job search each week.

Updegraaf: There was no individualized assessment done with these people, no one sat down with them and determined how much English they spoke. Several people who had problems with their plans complained of disabilities.
Amidst the confusion, Hmong families began leaving Duluth for the Twin Cities. Reasons varied. Some wanted to join relatives, some wanted access to support services in their own language, and many found ready employment and higher wages. When Updegraaf contacted St. Louis County officials with her concerns, they agreed to allow Hmong immigrants to start over in the orientation process, this time with an interpreter, Bobbee Vang. Vang was hired with a grant from the McKnight Foundation to provide special support for Southeast Asians seeking jobs in Duluth.


My interest in Hmong started here in GD

lojasmo (219 posts) Sun May-02-04 01:24 AM
Original message
Police everywhere in duluth WTF


There was a police officer in the lobby of my hotel on canal point, and an oficer in the lobby of Grandma's restaraunt/bar.

In the cold war, reportedly, duluth was number seven on the list of probable nuclear targets.

Any ideas?

Jackpine Radical (1000+ posts) Sun May-02-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #25

27. OK--but why Duluth?


It's 150 miles north of the Twin Cities.

social workers and educators say it's been a struggle


FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The twin cities are home to the largest Hmong population in North America, about 60,000 people. They began arriving from Laos and Thai refugee camps in the late '70s, initially placed here by local church-based refugee relief groups. And while this community has plenty to celebrate, social workers and educators say it's been a struggle. Of all the Southeast Asian refugees who fled for the U.S., none was more reluctant or less prepared than the Hmong. Hmong music, artwork, and ceremonies depict an agrarian people who fled once, a century before, from China to almost total isolation in the hills of Laos. Until the mid-20th century, the Hmong did not have a written language or a currency.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/vietnam/hmong_5-4.html


2001 Hmong Population and Education in
the United States and the World
August 24, 2001
Researched and Collected by Dr. Vang Pobzeb

From 1975 to 1991, more than 500,000 people in Laos fled and became international political refugees in the world because of the legacy of the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia.


The Communist Lao and Vietnamese governments have been exterminating Hmong people in Laos since the end of the Vietnam War in 1975 and are still doing so today, because of Hmong people cooperated with the U.S. government during the Vietnam War. In 2001, witnesses in Laos have reported that many thousands of Communist Vietnamese soldiers are cooperating with the Communist Lao government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic (LPDR) to conduct an ethnic cleansing war, genocide and human rights violations against Hmong people in Laos. Therefore, we appeal to and call upon Hmong American intellectuals, educators and the general public to unify our leadership strategies and efforts in order to save the lives of Hmong people in Laos. We call upon all Hmong people to unify and work together to save the lives of Hmong people. Power politics in the world and global actors are remaining silent on the genocide against Hmong people in Laos because they are concerned with economics and commercial goods for themselves. They do not really care about human rights violations and genocide in Laos and in other parts of the world.

There are about 300,000 Hmong American people in the United States in 2001.


In 2001, there are approximately 80,000 Hmong American people in Minnesota; and 80,000 Hmong Americans in Wisconsin.


About 40,000 Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and other states between 1996 and 2001.


About 70,000 Hmong Americans still live in California in 2001.


Many Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota and Wisconsin and other states because of the problems of welfare reforms and unemployment problems

http://www.laohumrights.org/2001data.html

Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier


Writing to an American who was confused about the Hmong people, Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier, wrote the following in 1996 (quoted from his e-mail to me, with permission):

The war in Vietnam was fought on several fronts and I served in two them. The main American battle ground was in the Southern end of South Vietnam. In order for the North Vietnamese forces to fight us there, it was necessary for their supplies and troops to go through Laos and Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and Laos was controlled by a Pro-Communist Government at that time. Therefore America was not allowed to have any forces on the ground, although we were allowed to bomb and attack North Vietnamese troops with our aerial forces. About 99% of the combat forces on the ground were Hmong irregulars who were persuaded by Americans to forget about being neutral, and to fight the N. Vietnamese regulars (not relatively poorly trained Viet Cong guerrilla forces). We supplied air cover, but every combat trooper knows aircraft can't take and hold ground. We depended on the Hmongs to do this. Without modern arms, without medical help.
After the fall of Saigon we pulled out of Southeast Asia and left the Hmongs to continue the fight without air support. When we left, the Hmong had to fight both the Laotians and the N. Vietnamese. They could not fight tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft with rifles. A great many Hmongs were slaughtered in their villages. Many were slaughtered at airfields where they waited for evacuation planes that never came. A few were able to fight every foot of the way across Laos and cross the Mekong River into refugee camps in Thailand where they were further mistreated by rather corrupt UN and Thai officials. Out of a estimated 3,000,000 prewar Hmong population less than 200,000 made it to safety. One other ill informed or stupid writer said "they were all gone" meaning, I guess, that the combat Hmongs were all dead, they are wrong. Most of the survivors are in Australia, France and here among us.

Now I don't know about those heroes who have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I am embarrassed that my country so mislead these people. The Hmongs gave up literally everything for us: their country, their homes, their peaceful way of life, most of their families, everything that we would cherish. We promised them our continued support and then we bugged out.

You mentioned having relatives who fought in Vietnam and I hope they all survived. However their chances would have been much less if the Hmongs hadn't intercepted over 50% of the N. Vietnamese troops and supplies. If you truly loved your relatives, you should be grateful for the Hmongs' sacrifices.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml



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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. You said it all. "We Never Learn"......... wasn't there a song.......
When will we ever learn........

Just so incredibly sad.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. the song - Where have all the flowers gone?
There was a thread last week in the Lounge with lyrics of VN era protest songs - If I had a Hammer, Waist Deep in the Big Muddy, etc - I think the title of the thread was Blowing in the Wind (Bob Dylan)

WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE
words and music by Pete Seeger
performed by Pete Seeger and Tao Rodriguez-Seeger

Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone?
Taken husbands every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

©1961 (Renewed) Fall River Music Inc
All Rights Reserved.



http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/flowers-gone.shtml
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. "Some spit on him"? Interesting. Every Vietnam vet I've ever talked to..
...has stated that nobody ever spit on them at any time during the war. The guys I talked to primarily were the Marines I served with at Camp Pendleton.

Did you actually see your husband get spit on?
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Ernesto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Same here MLD!
It is theeeee classic "urban myth". The only times that I was ever insulted was when I marched with Viet Vets Against the War.
Semper Fi Amigo.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
69. They didn't spit on me They just yelled shit at me as they drove
Edited on Mon May-03-04 10:33 PM by FreakinDJ
by.....More like a drive by insult

But finding people that hated you was no problem. I don't think any one at the time would walk into the average bar hold his glass hi and shout "Semper Fi" Not alone at least
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Well, then come and talk with me!
I get so fucking disgusted with this bullshit coming up repeatedly on DU I could #$%^&*#$$%!

November 1969. Returned through OAB and flew military standby from SFO to DTW. Spit at/on in SFO.

Deal with it.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. ...and I would back you up as one of the most honest people I have
met, Mike. It has to be so saddening to see this...this on a Democratic message board. :(

A hug for you :hug: and tons of thanks.

Laura
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #41
74. Apologists for '60s radical f***wits love this pointless exercise in
denial. All the more ironic considering that a fair few of those radicals moved into ultra-materialistic yuppiedom in their 30s.
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Ernesto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. You are the only GI that has ever told me this
out the thousands I have known.... Ever hear of the exception to the rule? .... There, I dealt with it. (I guess)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. "thousands"?
Well, I worked as the co-chair of the Veteran's Diversity Group (EEO/AA stuff) at a major federal contractor ... and I've only met "hundreds" in my life well enough to hear about such incidents, and I've heard about a dozen tell about similar personal experiences. Maybe we're getting past tired of the bullshit abuse from Jodies and people that were only wet dreams in those days, huh? Gee. Go figure. :puke:
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. The biggest mistake made by the Anti - Vietnam War movement
participants IMHO . I will still Welcome home a
Vet when I first meet them . I feel it is my duty
to do this . I'm ashamed of the way some returning
home were treated .
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. the America people never treated OUR returning soldiers badly

who treated OUR soldiers badly was the UNITED STATES war-mongers and war-profiteers...cutting costs at any level, and taking it right out of OUR military families and soldiers, as bush* is doing today....

the 'spitting' is a reTHUGlican LIE....the only 'spitting' was figuratively by WAR-PROFITEERS and CHICKEN-HAWKS who refused to take care of OUR Veterans, leaving an UGLY and horrifying bunch of deformed human beings....yes, it's repulses some....

Kerry worked hard to force the pentagoon war-profiteers to pay for some very minimal medical care for OUR returning soldiers....Americans shun some who NEVER got any medical/mental health care.....those returning Veterans are awful UGLY, lying all over the streets of DC today with UNCARED FOR WAR WOUNDS, deformities, and ruined lives...over 60% of the homeless on the streets of DC today are VETERANS....


Detroit VA Patient Walkout for Better Treatment, 1975


VVAW Demo for Jobs in San Diego 1974
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Yes they did. My Grandfather, I am ashamed to admit was one who
sneered in derision at returning vets. They were "nothing" in his eyes. They weren't heroes they were animals. Sad, yes. But a good thing came out of it. I learned how not to behave toward those who answer a call....

You need to stop judging all. Walk away.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #48
75. Give it a rest. You're embarrassing yourself.
Or you would, if you had even half a clue.

How long have you been blind?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. The movement people were organizing GI coffee houses
and supplying the mimeos for the antiwar newsletters put out by GIs in off-base venues. Abusers were part of the general culture, not activists.

http://www.quakerhouse.org/QH%20Exhibit/panel3.htm

http://www.warresisters.org/nva0300-3.htm

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Bibliographies/GI_Mvmt_bib.html



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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. good work ! appreciate the links....it clears up a lot of these tales


the 'spitting' stories were always a way for reTHUGlicans to degrade the PRO-Peace people....it seems now to be a BIG part of the reTHUG-whispering Kerry-attacks on all the big chat boards....

expect a lot more of these tales, as Kerry campaigns....it helps the reTHUGlican radical right-wingers to spin tales about Kerry and about the great Pro-Peace work that he and others are doing and have done for many many years....
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. "some spit on him in the street"...please provide more details....

my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam today, May 3rd...so, in honor of my cousin, a young man who DIED for a lie, after being 'sucked into the intake'....please answer these very important questions:


certainly, on any street in Northern Virginia (where I live), there would be WITNESSES to this spitting, since this area has one of the highest population densities in America....many military people and their friends/relatives LIVE and work in Arlington and the Northern Virginia area...were there WITNESSES to this 'spitting'?

when did this 'spitting' occur and where?

wouldn't it be terribly stupid of anyone to spit on a soldier in this area of the country?....expecially a soldier recently returned from a combat area....it strikes me as an incredibly stupid action, which could lead to serious consequence for the 'spitter'....

please tell us what your husband did after being 'spit' on? what street was he on? was he wearing a uniform?

my cousin was KILLED today, May 3rd, in Vietnam...please repond to my questions to honor a young man's life....

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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Like the guy who wrote the book about the spitting said
Edited on Mon May-03-04 04:35 PM by Mountainman
You can't prove it didn't happen any more than I can convince you that it did.

What do we get out of this debate? Maybe you feel someone is making up a story to discredit a group of people. I know that isn't true. I have no ill will for the people who were for the Vietnam war or who were against it. I believe we were wrong to have fought that war and there are some that disagree with me.

But, to try to put the events that happened over 30 years ago in to today's context will never get at the truth. We can't judge Kerry's motives for speaking against the war in Vietnam with the misguided rhetoric that is used today when talking about Iraq. And we can't describe the motives of the anti war people back in the 60's and 70's with the emotions of today.

Your need to answer the questions about Vietnam can't be answered by your taking what you know of today and projecting it back to that time. You had to have been there. And maybe your were I don't know.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. is there a 'spitting book'?....please tell me who wrote it and where I
can obtain it?....certainly, I'd be interested in reading this 'spitting book'....

contrary to your 'little' inuendo about Kerry...Kerry's MOTIVES in founding Vietnam Veterans Against the WAR are VERY CLEAR....Kerry fought for the SAME Veterans benefits and medical care that we are fighting for today's soldiers....there is nothing misguided about it....this Iraq war is VIETNAM REGURGITATED, run by the same war-profiteers and chicken-hawks that ran the Vietnam war for 14 years....stealing tons of money from American taxpayers and duping OUR young people into DYING for LIES that prop up the filthy rich, who pay no taxes...kissinger Associates (KA) stealing OUR money, bremer was the CEO for KA, poindexter ruling Iraq....nothing at all is changed...and the outcome will be the same as Vietnam....









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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Reminds me of the Disneyland study.
Some scientists studying memory asked a group of people if they had ever been to Disney land, and if they remember seeing a guy in a Daffy Duck costume. A sizable proportion said yes, they clear remember being at Disneyland and seeing a guy in a Daffy Duck costume. Even though Daffy Duck is a Warner Bros. character, and not Disney.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Yes there is...and it's called "A Hard Rain Fell". Perhaps you need to
read it. :shrug:
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. A link to the book via Amazon
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. out of print, nothing about 'spitting', very poor reviews, $2.74 used
...it certainly doesn't look like anything that I want to read....here is a review off Amazon....sad....only 15,000 copies were printed and it is now OUT OF PRINT...probably for good reason...no reviewers mention 'spitting' for this book...wonder why some here are so enthralled with this book? :crazy:

--------------------------------------------

want a real insight into Vietnam do NOT read this one!!, May 25, 2003

Reviewer: Trisha Mason (see more about me) from Lake Jackson, TX USA

This is the only piece of Military history, i have EVER put down after less than 6 chapters! the Reason??.... there wasn't one single episode recounted by Ketwig, of his time in the republic of vietnam, that couldn't have been written by, any other service member serving between 65-72, with a good memory, and acess to returnees, or those on "in-country R&R".

this book amounts to nothing but a mass of whining drivel interspersed with "barracks room tales" that I (the 26 year old son of a Vietnam Era vet, raised around the military) have been hearing from the mouths of hundreds since i was too young to know fact from fiction.

do NOT buy this book!!

if you MUST have an account of vietnam, get either or both "We Were Soldiers Once and Young..." by Harold Moore and Joseph Galloway, And/Or "Blood On the risers" by John Leppelman. --This text refers to the Paperback edition
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Gee from Texas even.
:eyes: It was an excellent book. I have suggested it to many. A real eye opener...unless of course one refuses to allow their eyes to be open.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. yes, even Texas rated the book at the LOWEST LEVEL and

said that it wasn't even worth reading....at used $2.74....

that should open everyone's eyes....

it's really bad when Texas says so....thanks, but no thanks for your
"It was an excellent book. I have suggested it to many."


:puke:

:puke:

:puke:
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. Yes and we trust what a common person has to say right amen?
Again, I repeat... Excellent book!
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
76. Here we have someone with mouth open,
eyes closed. Brain on hiatus.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. sorry that your 'wife was sleeping with her lover'....expect many
more families to be broken up as the Iraqi war Veterans return....there may be a lot more spouses that are KILLED by their returning combat Veterans....or minimally divorced or beat up....

it's all part of the tragedy of WAR....Vietnam and Iraq are really the same....the end will be the same....the whole war is based on LIES and OUR soldiers are paying for it, as is the taxpayers...soldiers never forget the KILLING and maiming that takes place in WAR and IMO, the psychological and social issues are much more costly than the immediate physical war wounds....



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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Banalities, platitudes, and bromides.
Poor frosting for BULLSHIT. :puke:
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
80. What Bullshit!
Way to cherry pick the one bad review out of six.

It's a just a book.

I find it strangely ironic that you need to tear down people's personal accounts of what they say they saw firsthand. Weren't you injured in a peace rally? Didn't you yourself have to put up with a bunch of shit from skeptics? One would think that would make you a bit more understanding when it comes to personal accounts.

Not that personal accounts should be taken whole hog. But when a long time poster writes them, they should get a bit more credibility shouldn't they?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
67. It's called "The Spitting Image" (sorry, I can't recall the author's...
name) Debunks this urban (suburban?) myth. Traces the origins and permutations. Ironically, Jane Fonda's film, "Coming Home" was a crucial propagator of this "outrage"
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Aries Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. The author is Jerry Lembcke
Edited on Tue May-04-04 07:40 AM by Aries
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350


Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors
By Jerry Lembcke



...There is still another layer to the pro-troop rhetoric that has escaped commentary, however. Implicit in it is the assumption that someone doesn't support the men and women in uniform. Behind that supposition lurk the myths and legends of homefront betrayal that have bedeviled American political culture since the Vietnam War, and which have been resuscitated recently by rumors of hostility toward military personnel.

By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.

Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out — the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers — and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.

Many of the current stories are accompanied by stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans. The recent story of spitting in Asheville, for example, was traced to a local businessman who says he is a veteran who was also spat upon and called a "baby killer" when he returned from Vietnam. An Associated Press story of April 9 reported stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans surfacing in several cities including Spicer, Minnesota whose mayor said he was spat upon in the San Francisco airport while coming home from Vietnam in 1971.

Similar stories became quite popular during the Gulf War of 1991 which raised my curiosity about where they came from and why they were believed. There is nothing in the historical record — news or police reports, for example — suggesting they really happened. In fact, the Veterans Administration commissioned a Harris Poll in 1971 that found 94% of Vietnam veterans reporting friendly homecomings from their age-group peers who had not served in the military. Moreover, the historical record is rich with the details of solidarity and mutuality between the anti-war movement and Vietnam veterans. The real truth, in other words, is that anti-war activists reached out to Vietnam veterans and veterans joined the movement in large numbers...


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LuLu550 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
45. Well, if there is any question about how divisive the Viet Nam war was..
It's been settled here. It s a scab that is easily picked until it bleeds.

How about a truce? I have also read that the spitting thing was not true, but I also don't believe I can call someone a liar what said they saw it first hand. I think it may have happened to a few, and became blown out of proportion by lots of others.

I hated the war in Viet Nam and protested actively for years. But I hated it because my friends were getting hurt and were dying, not only because it was an imperialistic, ideological war.

Back in the 1960s and early 70s, if you were a "normal" guy you got drafted, period. Most of the guard and reserves that are in Iraq did not join to kill Arabs, they wanted money for college. I don't want our troops to die any more than I want them killing innocent Iraqis. That is how you can be against a war and still support the troops.

I marched with the Viet Nam Veteran's Against the War because I was against the war, not against the troops. I heard Kerry speak at a rally on Long Island in 1971. I still have the button.

Peace


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Thank YOU, Raven.
Jesus fucking christ, already.

It's threads like these that prevent me from pointing my vietnam vet friend to DU. He'd never vote for a democrat again if he saw this bullshit. He's never told me he'd been spit at, but he DID have dog shit thrown at him. He also couldn't find a job anywhere after returning. No one wanted to take on a nam vet.

I appreciate you saying what I wanted to say, in a much nicer way than I would have said it. Kudos to you, Raven!
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
51. Good grief!!! The prisoner abuse in Iraq is PROOF POSITIVE....

There Are SOME Bad Apples in Every Bunch!



How can we DOUBT that some returning soldiers during the Vietnam era were spit upon? Or, at the least, treated horribly. Reading some of the posts on this thread, it seems like some here are STILL spitting on our soldiers, from behind their keyboards and computer monitors!

The people that would do such a thing are shallow thinkers; they are "stereotyping" a group of people (in this case, Vets) based on their preconceived notions of what that group represents, believes, or feels. That's the same mind-set that creates racist atrocities, as well as oppression and abuse of every other kind.

Mari333's step son is in Iraq, guarding the prison where these abuses took place. That doesn't mean he abused any prisoners! There are bad apples in Iraq. There were bad apples in Vietnam. There are bad apples on DU.

You can't go around spitting on all our soldiers in Iraq, all the soldiers in Vietnam, NOR all DUers, in hopes you might hit one that happens to be a bad apple!!! Anybody that hates "all soldiers" is WAY BEYOND being narrow minded. THAT person is a bad apple. They are no more intelligent or free-thinking than an apple, either.

:kick::kick::kick:

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
52. Once again, we fall into the trap the GOP has set...
I am all for discussing war. Can we go back to WWII and Korea? The Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Haiti, GW I, GW II? The Revolution is always a good discussion, and The Civil War finally brought this country together, however tenuously, after the assassination of Lincoln.

Why specifically Vietnam? Is it because many of my generation went to SE Asia, or is it because Kerry was there; maybe it is because bush and his cabal, with one notable exception, avoided going? Why are we doing this to ourselves again?

The enemy is bush, and the more they bring up VN, it is to embroil us in discussions that have no end. They set the tone for us, and we, because we are human and hurt, fall for it every time...;(

The war we are in now, is not the first time the United States waged a pre-emptive war. We went into Mexico, we invaded Haiti, we invaded Panama, and the most glaring of all, in the name of the United States, several previous governments, attempted to erase the indigenous people from this continent.

The current war, is as bad as the previous pre-emptive wars. While there are questions relating to VN that need to be answered; people are dying now in a far off land for nothing more than the enrichment of the new ruling class. This is our battle. Our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines are cannon fodder now, and we need to come together to get the current people in OUR WH out. Then, we need to sit down and get a plan together with the rest of the area, and get out, leaving an intact nation capable of self sustenance. This should be our goal.

We can hash out old battles, like those at the VFW and American Legion, that is fine. But a far larger battle looms before us, and if we take our eyes off of that battle, we will be caught up in it for far longer than than we dare think.

I ask my fellow veterans, and those that feel compassion for those that are called upon to do the military bidding of this administration, to come together. Spit washes off, mud washes off, despair can be dealt with, and fear can be held at bay. Death, however, is permanent. Far too many have been lost already, let us come together to help the other come home, safe and intact.

We carry scars, but they bleed no more...let us aid our brothers ans sisters to return home, before more blood is spilled. This ill planned war will be the downfall of bush, but we must work together.

Peace is a viable alternative.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Deleted message
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Really now....
Hmmmmm.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
65. I think it's different now...people were angry
they were taking out there disgust with the war on all the soldiers. I think people learned that there was a big difference between a kid who ended up there and gun-ho, cocky, might makes right, war loving kids.

I think people now know that there are a lot of kids who enlisted for the chance to get college or a trade never dreaming that we would be in another Vietnam.

I think people are more rational now.

I think there is a big difference between career brass who love war and the kids.

I didn't resent those kids during Vietnam and I don't now. I resented the abuse they get. I just want them to resist the brain washing and see the futility of killing brothers and sisters on this planet, now or eventually.

The key is waste. It is a waste when the war is concocted by corporate-military-political-banking people. And Vietnam taught us all how to see through it and make distinctions.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
68. The Troops can kiss the Hero's welcome good bye
Edited on Mon May-03-04 10:29 PM by FreakinDJ
So know they will know how I felt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #68
78. Heroes welcome
Been quite a few already I'm proud to say. Quite a cross section of supporters and well-wishers in attendance. God bless these folks, mostly young soldiers. I pray for a change of leadership that will bring some rationality to the way we use our forces.
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