Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What's Kerry's position on After-Iraq?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 02:55 PM
Original message
What's Kerry's position on After-Iraq?
If I understand correctly, he also is for staying in Iraq, due to not going in, smashing the country and then leaving it unstable. Through this international agreement and partnership he wants to forge, I assume the US would take just another place, not first, in Iraq. Does this mean that we would give up our ownership of carving up the country for profiteers? We have been building bases there under Bush- would these stay? The plan from Bush is to have troops there for years-does Kerry agree with this? Heard the yadaya about how what Kerry is proposing is what Bush has done, but it doesn't seem that way to me at all, when was it that Bush had wholesale international support and sharing of the burden? Oh, Never.

Would appreciate some links and references for this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. I didn't know there was going to be an "AFTER" Iraq....
we're there to stay. Now, if you're speculating about where
the glorious imperial troops are headed, I think they'll
continue Eastward, towards Iran.
Doesn't matter who controls the WH...this shit will continue...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. it's a smoke screen....
Kerry does not have a coherent plan for dealing with Iraq. Next year we'll be marching against Kerry's war, and the killing will continue unaffected by a minor regime change in Washington.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kerry's actually had this plan on his site at least for a few months
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq/

Anytime you're having doubts or questions about Kerry's position on ANYTHING just check his website it's all there.

Not that you specifically fall into this category but I personally get annoyed with both left and right wingers when they claim "oh well Kerry hasn't made his position on (insert x issue) clear"

He's got it all on his site down to every last detail on the hows and whys.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solidarity Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. He's Been Very Clear

Kerry has taken a very clear position recognizing the existence of Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I didn't say I had doubts or saying that Kerry's position is unclear
More like, wanting to DISCUSS what he has said. My personal style is to like to see main points outlined. Where this comes from specifically is a news broadcast yesterday (can't recall who said it, it might have been *rolling eyes* Candy Crowley starting it with the recap of his speech and saying that it was basically the same thing Bush is doing, and then hearing that same type of sentiment AGAIN later on in a couple of venues.)

So I want to TALK about this, in order to cement and clarify the position in my own mind.

1. Kerry wants to use Nato as the global security force. I don't believe Bush has ever proposed this, yes? When that happens, presumably Nato as represented by a large number of countries would be contributing troops, thus lessening our own troop presence in Iraq. (Side point on this: I assume that Kerry, unlike Bush, does NOT support nation-building, pre-emptive war, nor Wolfowitz's neocon world plans. Yes?)

2. High Commissioner as selected by UN handles elections, etc. I thought I saw recently where Kerry said something like "Whatever form that government will take". I assume by this he is not tied to whether it should *have* to be a democracy. Yes?

3. Nato takes on as its mission rebuilding security forces in Iraq.

Sorry to be already annoying to you, but I would appreciate an explicit pointer to Kerry's position on the bases being built in Iraq. Is he going to continue this or will they be closed down once we no longer have an occupational presence as under Bush?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. all of Kerry's positions are on his web page....the reTHUGlicans

know damn well that their war-profiteering wholesale theft of American taxpayers money will be stopped if Kerry gets elected...AND Kerry WILL lead us out of Iraq....THAT is why the reTHUGlicans are attacking Kerry about his purple hearts, his Catholic beliefs, his hair, his wife, his Vietnam service, his war wounds, his houses, his Senate votes, his pets, his ties....and anything else they can think of in their on-going attack ads....currently, over $50 Million dollars from bush* in attack ads have failed....

go Kerry...beat bush*....take back America....
www.JohnKerry.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Try explaining this fact to the Marijuana liberals
Edited on Sat May-01-04 03:17 PM by noahmijo
Ugh no matter how many times I post that Kerry voted in favor of authorizing war AS A LAST RESORT

I swear for every time I say this the next day I see about 10 people say "well ya know Kerry voted for this war he wanted this war so he's no better than Bush"

And then they say that Kerry has no comprehensive plan to get us out of Iraq.

All due respect to you lovable liberals who are probably so peaceful that you'd let another person beat you senseless without lifting a muscle, take some time to check out the truth and facts behind Kerry's positions past and future and realize that he may not be a total peacenik, but he understands when it's time to back off and when it's time to fight. He understands that the only cause for war is when you are 110% sure that a threat is present.

He recognizes that there are terrorists out there who want to kill us and is willing to step up to them, but he is not stupid enough to lead this country into a war with another country that has nothing to do with the terrorists who pulled 9/11.

THIS is the kind of person I want as president. Someone who is willing to show force WHEN IT IS NECESSARY AND NOT ON A "HUNCH"


Once again for those who didn't get it. Kerry voted for the war AS A LAST RESORT.

Once again

LAST RESORT

"Oh but you see Kerry voted for the Iraq war because Bush-

"LAST RESORT!!"

"Oh but Kerry has no plan to get us out of Iraq and refuses to-

READ!! http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq/

Even Dick Cheney admits that Kerry voted for the war as a last resort:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1506592&mesg_id=1506592
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7.  Marijuana liberals-
Careful! :smoke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Alright now I gotta say "I got nothin against potsmokers"
Which I don't I'd rather hang around with potsmokers than drunks. I have friends who are weedheads okay I don't hold that against you.

But so far all the complaints against Kerry I've heard concerning the lie about how he supported the war seems to be coming from that sector (The sit around and smoke weed all day and do nothing else sector).

Or maybe it's the Freepers pretending to speak for you.

Which is it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Wow
Can't we just say that folks have many different views without pinning that on their lifestyle choices?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Fine don't wanna get into a pointless argument
Pot isn't the blame lack of will to seek the truth about Kerry's war positions is.

Now let's all have us a group hug and vote Bush out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solidarity Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Invasion Was The Last Resort????

" Kerry voted for the war AS A LAST RESORT"

What do you mean? That's a meaningless, empty statement. The invasion of Iraq was Kerry's last resort to what? What were the other resorts?

Perhaps not invading Iraq and allowing the UN weapons inspectors to complete their job was a better resort.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It's not meaningless
Edited on Sat May-01-04 03:36 PM by noahmijo
If you take the time to read the background which I provided and is provided on Kerry's site.

Kerry voted for the authorized use of military force on the conditions of 1. Bush created an international coalition. 2. If Saddam was in breach of UN statutes and refused to disarm without a fight AND proved to be an imminent threat to the nation's and world safety as proven by the UN inspectors.

That is in essence voting for war as a last resort. Kerry only agreed with war if Saddam was PROVEN to have weapons and to be an imminent threat.

Okay I think even the most leftist peacenik would have no trouble going to war if the war in question has to do with fighting a guy who has really nasty weapons and war plans for invading the US are discovered.

That's what I mean by LAST RESORT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Perhaps you are confusing the events leading up to the invasion
Here's my view of the IWR and Kerr's vote:

IWR- Was opposing Bush enough? Was that Congress's only responsibility?

My view and my aim is that Bush should be held completely responsible for pushing us into war. From his phony 1441 presentation to his phony briefings which exaggerated the threat from Iraq, to the phony information that his administration hawked in secret briefings with Congress. I don't see the value in allowing Bush to hide behind a congressional resolution that sought to stifle his manufactured mandate to invade and occupy Iraq.

Congress is the lever. The hold the purse strings. But the president has the ultimate responsibility under the Constitution for committing forces. If Bush can disregard Congress's mandate with impunity then what good is there in holding Congress accountable when the president ignores the law? Did the president even read the resolution?

Nothing in there says drop the U.N. and invade. It says the opposite. And he stepped around them.

The resolution was designed to get Saddam to let inspectors back in by backing the 1441 U.N. resolution with the threat of force. Inspectors were let back in and pulled when Bush rushed forward. If Bush had given the inspectors more time perhaps they would have taken the question of WMDs off of the table.

That was the effect of the resolution. Allowing the inspectors to reenter Iraq and proceed with verification. We could guess, but they would verify. Bush pushed ahead of Congress in his invasion. He cut the inspectors off with his rush to invade. No Democrat advocated that, save Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller.

Why did Congress trust the president? What guarantee do we have that any elected official will follow the Law?

When Congress passes a resolution that mandates seeking swift action by the U.N. security council before proceeding, and proscribes working with the international community until it is determined that 'reliance on diplomatic of peaceful means alone" would not force Saddam's hand, that is the law. The president took an oath promising to follow the law.

Thus, as the resolution states:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.



Didn't the president unlawfully disregard these provisions? Don't these provisions represent the restraint that I maintain is implied in the resolution. Isn't this actually a case of the president pushing past Congress, the American people, and the international community in his race to war?

These are the foremost provisions of the resolution that I believe involves the president and his word.

1. Defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq.

According to who? According to what evidence presented. Doesn't the administration have an obligation to present the threat in a accurate and truthful manner? Did they? Weren't they obligated to under this resolution?

Why aren't the nay voters calling for a new resolution like Dennis Kucinich in his call to repeal the authorization. Where is that push in Congress now from all of the dissenters?

I'll tell you where. They had a chance to modify the war in two separate funding bills. I know that my candidate voted against that $87 billion. That's as close to post-war opposition as any of the others in the Senate have managed. This is in the wake of evidence of no WMD's; hind views; and evidence mounting of the president inflating the threat.

2. Enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

U.N. Res.1441 was negotiated with bogus evidence presented by Powell. But the public still doesn't know the nature or the amount of evidence presented. Some were convinced some weren't. You can see in John Kerry's floor statement that he didn't abide risking the possibility that Iraq might restart a nuclear program, remote-controlled bombers, whatever. That was on the basis of bogus info.

But remember, there were no inspectors inside Iraq to verify anything. One of John Kerry's intentions in the resolution was to pressure Iraq with the U.N. resolution backed up by the threat of force. It worked until Bush pushed ahead and drove them out again. Those who would hold the president accountable are indebted to Hans Blix for his presence there and his candor.

Still some will insist on holding those who sought to reign him in responsible for the sins of Bush. It makes no sense, politically or on the facts at hand, to claim that John Kerry advocated or acquiesced to unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation in their support for the IWR.

The authority to commit forces is not inherent in the IWR. That authority is contained in the War Powers Act which decades of presidents have used to commit forces for 60 days without congressional approval. I believe that Congress would be loath to remove forces after they were committed.

The only input that Congress had to the president's rush to war was a 'no' vote, which I don't believe would have restrained the president, and to attempt to place restrictions on the president's behavior through a resolution.

Principled opposition to Bush's war is to be respected and encouraged. But I reject the argument that those same principles were betrayed in just voting for the IWR.

Some Democrats saw the resolution as a way to restrain Bush and send him back to the U.N. My candidate was desperate to stifle Bush's argument for immediate invasion and sought to mandate a return to the international table by limiting Bush's authority in the resolution.

Whether or not the resolution had passed, Bush was intent on invading and occupying Iraq. He had gone around for days proclaiming that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted.

If the resolution had failed, the president I think, would have committed forces anyway as decades of presidents had also put troops in the field for 60 days without congressional approval. In that event, I believe, the Congress would be loath to retreat and remove forces. Then, by law a resolution would have been drawn up, likely resembling the one we have now; urging Bush back to the U.N. and calling for internationalization of the conflict.

That is how determined presidents get us into war. Check and checkmate. It's democracy-lite. It stinks, but it is difficult, if not impossible, to restrain a president from committing forces because of the loopholed prerogative inherent in the War Powers Act, which is referenced in the IWR. I believe that the only way to effectively direct him is through some sort of resolution passed by Congress.

It is possible that a unified front of opposition to the resolution could have turned the public against the plan to invade. But I don't think that was at all possible with the republican majority in the Senate, and in view of Bush's plan to invade with or without congressional approval.

Sen. Kerry and other Democrats didn't feel that the president would be restrained with a 'no' vote. They sought to influence his behavior through the resolution.

Bush's position before, during and after invasion was that 1441 gave him authority to do any thing he wanted to in that region. He wanted cover, but the IWR doesn't give him cover for his unilateral, preemptive invasion. Nowhere in the bill does it mandate what he did.

Bush disregarded the restraint implied in the resolution and pushed past Congress, the American people, and the world community in his predisposed zeal to invade and occupy Iraq.


I am defending John Kerry in this because he the rational he gave for his vote. Maybe I wouldn't have made that vote. I don't know what lies the administration put before the U.N. and Congress. I do know that John Kerry opposed what the president ultimately did, before and after the vote. He didn't hide behind clipped rhetoric. He was effusive in his complaints. He was clear in his opposition to unilateral invasion and occupation.

I was also opposed to the president's actions; before the vote and at the U.N with Powell's phony presentation (I couldn't believe they bought that load.) I anguished over the vote which threatened to wipe out the Senate Democrats because Bush had taken them to the edge of the mid-term elections.

I listened to the debate. I thought Biden-Lugar and Byrd's outright rejection of Bush's open-ended first draft was superior to the final vote. But I listened to John Kerry's admonitions in his floor speech. He said that he would personally hold the president accountable if he exceeded the restraint implied in the bill.


From John Kerry's Floor Speech Before The Vote:

"I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections. In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days - to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.

If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out."
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html


His presidential bid is a natural extension of his promise. He has been consistent in his aim to remove Saddam with international support. He has deeper knowledge than I as to the true nature of the threat posed. Sen. Kerry is no stranger to the debate over our support of Saddam's regime and the corrupting violence proliferated by Hussein. He voted for the Iraq Liberation Act supported by Clinton which called for regime change. He has been consistent in his concern for the security of the region and for the potential transfer of bio or chem weapons by an unchecked Iraq. His IWR vote was an extension of that concern.

Congress can act, but the president holds ultimate responsibility to follow the mandate of the people as expressed by their representatives. Congress didn't give Bush permission for his preconceived invasion. They acted in accordance with their obligations under the Constitution and the War Powers Act and did not give a blank check.

Congress doesn't seem to have the will to collectively stop this war, even in the face of the evidence that Bush inflated the threat. Two massive funding bills have ratified our mostly unilateral occupation there. I must note that my candidate voted against the $87 billion.

I think this fish rots at the head. Bush must go. John Kerry is consistent in seeking the presidency to ensure that the will of Congress, the American people, and the concerns of the international community are not disregarded in the future.


Me Book

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Brilliant-Thank You
That's good, I enjoyed reading that.

Also that's the last time I underestimate you damn potsmokers ;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solidarity Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. So We Knew More About Iraq Than Kerry?

"Kerry only agreed with war if Saddam was PROVEN to have weapons and to be an imminent threat."

Really? Could Kerry not have withheld his support to an invasion until such proof was presented? He didn't. Why is it that 21 other Democratic Senators did not take such a wishy washy position and actually voted against the war resolution? I guess it could be that Kerry either lacked backbone, was easily fooled by the Bush government, didn't know what was really going on in Iraq or was simply trying to cover his ass just in case the invasion and occupation did not go very well.

I'm sure you find a good excuse for Kerry's action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Backbone
Edited on Sat May-01-04 05:53 PM by bigtree
I refuse to accept the meme that Kerry was wishy-washy, lacked backbone, or was easily fooled.

Sen. Kerry voted to hold Saddam accountable, to force Bush back to the U.N., and to restoire the inspection regime, which would have further forstalled war. His every action was to forstall war. His every action was to hold Saddam accountable. His every action was to prevent unilateral, preemptive invasion.

Too bad Bush lied and pushed us to invade.

Here are some excerpts from key statements opposing preemptive, unilateral, occupation and invasion before and after Bush's push foward.


"He talked about keeping Americans safe, but has too often practiced a blustering unilateralism that is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. He talked about holding Saddam Hussein accountable, but has too often ignored opportunities to unify the world against this brutal dictator." 01/28/2003 Response to President Bush's State of the Union
_________________________________

"I firmly believe that Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who must be disarmed. But I also believe that a heavy-handed approach will leave us to carry the burden almost alone. That's why I was one of the first Democrats to speak up and urge President Bush to go to the United Nations - because even a country as great as the United States needs some friends in this world.

The President says that war should be a last resort. He says it; I mean it -- because I know the cost of war. I have seen it with my own eyes. If I am commander in chief, I won't just have the perspective that comes from sitting in the Situation Room. I'll have the perspective that comes from serving on the front lines. And I tell you this: the United States should never go to war because it wants to; it should go to war only because it has to."
_____________________________________

I am here today to reject the narrow vision of those who would build walls to keep the world out, or who would prefer to strike out on our own instead of forging coalitions and step by step creating a new world of law and mutual security.

I believe the Bush Administration's blustering unilateralism is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. In practice, it has meant alienating our long-time friends and allies, alarming potential foes and spreading anti-Americanism around the world.

Too often they've forgotten that energetic global leadership is a strategic imperative for America, not a favor we do for other countries. Leading the world's most advanced democracies isn't mushy multilateralism—it amplifies America's voice and extends our reach. Working through global institutions doesn't tie our hands—it invests US aims with greater legitimacy and dampens the fear and resentment that our preponderant power sometimes inspires in others.

In a world growing more, not less interdependent, unilateralism is a formula for isolation and shrinking influence. As much as some in the White House may desire it, America can't opt out of a networked world. We can do better than we are doing today. And those who seek to lead have a duty to offer a clear vision of how we make Americans safer and make America more trusted and respected in the world. 01/23/2003
__________________________________

"I find myself angered, saddened and dismayed by the situation in which this nation finds itself tonight. As the world's sole superpower in an increasingly hostile and dangerous world, our government's obligation to protect the security of the United States and the law abiding nations of the world could not be more clear, particularly in the aftermath of September 11.

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us -- both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq -- decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration -- like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building -- a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush." Statement of Senator John Kerry Regarding President Bush's Announcement on Iraq 03/18/2003
__________________________________________

The Massachusetts senator has stood by his vote last fall for the Iraq resolution in the face of criticism from anti-war Democrats and rival Howard Dean, a former Vermont governor who opposed the U.S.-led war. Kerry qualified his support Monday, saying it was the correct vote "based on the information that we were given."

"The president promised to build the international coalition, to do this as a matter of last resort, to go through the United Nations process and respect it," he said. "And in the end, it is clear now that he didn't do that sufficiently. And I think in that regard, the American people were let down."

Kerry said he voted for the resolution with the understanding that the administration would build an international coalition before attacking Saddam Hussein's forces.

"It seems quite clear to me that the president circumvented that process, shortchanged it and did not give full meaning to the words 'last resort,"' Kerry said in a 20-minute conference call with reporters.
_________________________________

The president clearly disregarded the intent of the IWR which was to provide the threat of force to force Saddam to let inspectors in, and steer Bush back to the U.N. He wasn't inclined to go, sure. But the resolution sought to steer him back there. That is the rational for the support some Democrats gave the legislation.

Indeed some were able to insert language to that effect into the bill. John Kerry among them:

In back-to-back speeches, the senators, John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, and Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said they had come to their decisions after the administration agreed to pursue diplomatic solutions and work with the United Nations to forestall a possible invasion.

"I will vote yes," said Mr. Kerry, a possible presidential candidate in 2004, "because on the question of how best to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, the administration, including the president, recognizes that war must be our last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we should be acting in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein."

Mr. Hagel said the administration should not interpret his support or that of others as an endorsement of the use of pre-emptive force to press ideological disagreements.

"Because the stakes are so high, America must be careful with her rhetoric and mindful of how others perceive her intentions," Mr. Hagel said. "Actions in Iraq must come in the context of an American-led, multilateral approach to disarmament, not as the first case for a new American doctrine involving the pre-emptive use of force."
_________________________________

All efforts to stifle Bush's manufactured mandate to conquer were rejected by the president and his Bush league. Bush pushed past the mandate of Congress, the American people, and the world community and invaded.

edit: links corrupted
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solidarity Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Sadam's Regime Should Have Been Accountable To Bush?

"Sen. Kerry voted to hold Saddam accountable His every action was to hold Saddam accountable ...."

Accountable to who? John Kerry? The Bush government? The United Nations? Perhaps NATO?

Who the hell does John Kerry think he is to demand that a sovereign nation be held accountable to the Bush administration for its actions. Will all of the nations in the world be held accountable to a Kerry administration for their deeds or perhaps be required to obtain President Kerry's approval before they adopt foreign or domestic policy measures.

That smacks of colonialism! Is John Kerry proposing a colonialism with a "liberal human face"? I hope not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. accountable to the UN resolutions
are you paying any attention at all?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Kerry's approach was a multi-lateral one W/Iraq accountable to the UN
The IWR would provide for the threat of U.S. force to back up the will of the international community as expressed through 1441.

The U.N. resolution was based on sham evidence, but it remains that the presence of weapons could be guessed at but the IWR sought to introduce inspectors to verify (Hans Blix). Bush pushed past that and invaded.

As for colonialism, I see no need to continue to respond to your wild claims of Kerry's intentions. I don't believe you have read the entirety of his statements, before and after the invasion. I'll give you one more of his statements re: colonialism. BTW multi-lateral action via the UN is not generally seen as colonialism.


A Strategy for Iraq

By John F. Kerry
Tuesday, April 13, 2004; Page A19
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6753-2004Apr12.html

(snip)

In recent weeks the administration -- in effect acknowledging the failure of its own efforts -- has turned to U.N. representative Lakhdar Brahimi to develop a formula for an interim Iraqi government that each of the major Iraqi factions can accept. It is vital that Brahimi accomplish this mission, but the odds are long, because tensions have been allowed to build and distrust among the various Iraqi groups runs deep. The United States can bolster Brahimi's limited leverage by saying in advance that we will support any plan he proposes that gains the support of Iraqi leaders. Moving forward, the administration must make the United Nations a full partner responsible for developing Iraq's transition to a new constitution and government. We also need to renew our effort to attract international support in the form of boots on the ground to create a climate of security in Iraq. We need more troops and more people who can train Iraqi troops and assist Iraqi police.

We should urge NATO to create a new out-of-area operation for Iraq under the lead of a U.S. commander. This would help us obtain more troops from major powers. The events of the past week will make foreign governments extremely reluctant to put their citizens at risk. That is why international acceptance of responsibility for stabilizing Iraq must be matched by international authority for managing the remainder of the Iraqi transition. The United Nations, not the United States, should be the primary civilian partner in working with Iraqi leaders to hold elections, restore government services, rebuild the economy, and re-create a sense of hope and optimism among the Iraqi people. The primary responsibility for security must remain with the U.S. military, preferably helped by NATO until we have an Iraqi security force fully prepared to take responsibility.
_____________________________________

Kerry: Bush needs to give U.N. ‘real authority’ in Iraq
He calls U.S. diplomacy ‘stunningly ineffective’
Updated: 3:52 p.m. ET April 18, 2004
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4771823

(snip)

Referring to the president’s acceptance Friday of U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi’s proposal for a caretaker government in Iraq, Kerry argued that Bush was trying to bring the international community into Iraq through “the back door” without giving other nations a real say in the decision making. “You cannot have America run the occupation, make all the reconstruction decisions, make the decisions on the kind of government that will emerge, and pretend to bring other nations to the table,” he said in a wide-ranging one-hour interview.

“George Bush astonishingly said at his press conference the other day, 'Brahimi will tell us who we’ll turn the government over to' ... but he won’t transfer to the U.N. the real authority for determining how the government emerges, how we will do the reconstruction of Iraq,” he said. “I think that’s a prerequisite to brining other countries to the table. (It’s) that simple.”

Interviewed by NBC News Washington Bureau Chief Tim Russert in Miami at the outset of a three-day campaign swing through Florida, Kerry was especially critical of U.S. diplomatic efforts to win support for the war in Iraq, which he labeled “stunningly ineffective.“Our diplomacy has been about as arrogant and ineffective as I’ve ever seen,” the Massachusetts senator said. “... Never has the United States of America been held in as low regard internationally as we are today. We are not trusted and this administration is not loved.”

He added that one of his first acts as president would be to return multilateralism to U.S. foreign policy because “it is not weakness, it is strength and we need a president who understands how to reach out to other countries, build alliances.”
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solidarity Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Really?

John Kerry: "The primary responsibility for security must remain with the U.S. military, preferably helped by NATO until we have an Iraqi security force fully prepared to take responsibility."

Why the United States military with help from NATO? Bush had no business invading that nation, with Kerry's help, in the first place.

It seems that John Kerry merely has some tactical differences with Bush on how to best achieve the establishment of a client regime in Iraq. Their goal seems to be essentially the same, just differences of opinion on how to accomplish that goal.

Is that why Kerry is opposed to withdrawing U.S troops from Iraq and would even supporting sending more GI's to Iraq if requested by the military brass? I don't think many GI's in Iraq and their families will vote for Kerry if that remains his position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You are taking his remarks and replacing their meaning
with your own cynical view. I am amazed at the responses of those who claim to be concerned about Iraqi sovereignty who would leave Iraq to disinigrate into tribal or ethnic warfare. We removed the controlling authority there and we have a responsibility to help Iraqis effect a stable authority there. Maybe we can't. Maybe things will erupt in a way that precludes our involvement there, and send us packing. I don't know. But, we broke Iraq. We have a responsibility to help fix it.


By Glen Johnson, Globe Staff, 9/1/2003
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/01/kerry_says_army_should_grow_by_40000/

Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that he favors expanding the Army by roughly 40,000 soldiers to relieve troop strain, and would spend whatever it takes to stop the guerrilla warfare in Iraq. But Kerry said he would not send more US soldiers into the country, preferring international troops that include a corps from Muslim nations.

A division is roughly 18,000 people. Under Kerry's plan, one would be dedicated to combat, the other to civil functions such as policing. He estimated that the additional troops would cost at least $5 billion, which he said he would pay for by reallocating money within the Defense Department budget.

"Personnel is the most important thing we should do," he said, explaining that the existing 480,000-strong Army is strained by multiple deployments.

While calling for an overall expansion of the nation's 1.4 million armed forces, Kerry was careful to say that he would not send more soldiers to Iraq, where the current force of nearly 150,000 troops is subject to frequent attacks. He called for a multinational expansion, saying, "the best way to protect the troops is to get Arab-speaking Muslim troops on the ground in Iraq."
_____________________________________________________________________

The Union Leader and ABC News Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate - Part 1
Location: Manchester, NH
Date: 01/22/2004
January 22, 2004 Thursday

MR. GRIFFITH: Senator Kerry, in a speech at Drake University, you said in your first 100 days you would move to increase our armed forces by as much as 40,000 troops. You said there was a dire need for two full divisions. I'm the parent of two teenage sons. I-we're patriots, and people are wondering right now about voluntary versus draft. And, as president, how do you hope to lure and attract quality people into the military? And, as a follow-up, where do you stand on the issue of the draft?

SEN. KERRY: We don't need a draft now, and I wouldn't be in favor of it under the current circumstances. But, look, the first place you start to attract people into the military is to have a president who can prove to America that that president will be responsible about how that president deploys the military.

All across this country there are families right now-all of us have talked to them-who are suffering greatly, because the Guards and Reserves have been called up. They're overextended. The troops of the United States of America are overextended. Their deployments are too long. The families are hurting at home because they lose money from the private sector when they're called up, and they get paid less in the military, and nobody makes it up to them.

The fact is if we are going to maintain this level of commitment on a global basis-for the moment we have to, because of what's happened-we need an additional two divisions. One is a combat division, and one is a support division.

And that's the responsible thing to do. I've also said, responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world, and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe-and I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. How you gonna shut the barn door after the cows are out?
Perhaps in future, Congress will not give an okay until AFTER the conditions are met. In any event "Not since Lyndon Johnson hoodwinked Congress into issuing the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which authorized sending American troops to Vietnam, has a president so deceived Congress about a matter of such grave national importance... Bush and Cheney took this nation to war on their hunches, their unreliable beliefs and their unsubstantiated intelligence- and used deception with Congress both before and after launching the war" - p 152

We as the public were not privvy to what Congress was told about the urgency of the war. Even so, I was against Congress making such hasty moves and applauded those who spoke out (and did not vote to give) Bush the authority to go to war. However, I perfectly understand Kerry's position in this and believe he has been consistent and principled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. And this goes along with what J Dean says in Worse Than Watergate
in his chapter Deceiving Congress-An Impeachable Offense
p 140 "When it came to the war against Iraq, Congress was deceived, just as the American people were, only what happened with Congress deserves a very close look because it reveals that Congress did not give the administration a blank-check authorization. In fact, Bush deliberately violated the very authorization that he sought from Congress, which was not merely a serious breach of faith with a trusting Congress but a statutory and constitutional crime."

Dean goes on in this excellent chapter to discuss the Joint Resolution 107-243 clauses which "do not make the whereas clauses either fact or findings of fact by Congress... To avoid having to return to Congress for more debate on Iraq, Bush had pushed for and received authority to launch a war without further advance notice to Congress.... Congress insisted that certain conditions be established as existing and that the president submit a formal declaration, assuring the Congress that, in fact, these conditions were present... With one pathetic (yet false) exception, this report explains that the president made his determination by inexplicably relying on alleged congressional findings of face, which did not exist. Congress made no such findings and if it had done so, it surely would not have required the president make HIS determinations."

As you say, Congress gave him this power to go to war, but ONLY pending certain restrictions, which Bush deceptively avoided, and the report did not meet the conditions of the Iraq war resolution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. Get out
I've heard him say he'd like to bring alot of our troops home, from all over the world. Back during a C-Span townhall from Iowa, and I don't think there's a link anywhere.

In any event, in the Friday speech he addressed those profiteers. Specifically said the contracts should be administered through grassroots organizations directly to the Iraqi people. NOT through no-bid contracts or bureaucracies (ripe for exploitation). So he's hitting that part of it too, which I am really, really glad to hear. He had never said that specifically before and that's the missing piece of the puzzle, as far as I'm concerned, in all of our overseas "nation building". Bottom up economies, bottom up governments. Trickle down doesn't work here and it doesn't work anywhere else. I so hope that statement means he understands that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Would like to hear that expounded on more-the troops coming home
The only reason this country is sneakily considering a draft is that they have over-extended our troops due to the buildup of bases in *strategic* areas around the globe. I believe this leaves our homeland vulnerable, and is a misplacement of priorities.

Also thrilled to hear that the graft with the contracts will not exist with Kerry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC