Questions about torture pix - what the heck is going on here?

[hexola]

Not trying cast any doubts here - but some of these pictures are odd...

The first question - which may make all the following moot: Are we dealing with Video or Photo stills? It's not totally clear. Was it a video or pictures that started all this?

---

It looks like the one fellow on the left is mastubating. Does he have tattoo on his right arm?

I cant tell if the person giving the blow job is a male or female.

The guy recieving the blow job appears to be enjoying it. Note the lack of facial hair (you can see a bit of his cheek) Do these prisoners shave?

The guy on the right appears to be taking his mask off...

---

And this one - what is the woman doing? Where are her hands?...You would think she wouldn't get THAT close to the prisoners butts..

---

This picture - this could be from anywhere...

---

Does anyone know what that says? not clear to me...

PAPFIST?

[saigon68]

1. ACCORDING TO LYNNDIE ENGLAND "HE'S GETTING hARD"

At the Article 32 Hearing (like a grand jury hearing) Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P under
oath stated

Wisdom said:
SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right
to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the
pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its
ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I
thought I should just get out of there. I didn’’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick
walking towards me, and he said, ““““Look what these animals do when you leave them
alone for two seconds.”””” I heard PFC England shout out, ““““He’’’’s getting hard"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[goclark]

2. Horror of Horrors!!!!

Where are the superiors!!?
How long did this go on without anyone seeing or knowing about this!

[saigon68]

10. A Seregant First Class is supervising this criminal act

That is someone with 14 to 25 years in the army

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

also from the report

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

85. That sounds like something the NY police dept. would do

[hexola]

90. You mean "Bush's Henchmen".... (nt)

[mzmolly]

109. "Bush's Henchmen" Good one... almost convincing at that.

:eyes:

[Must_B_Free]

169. What's that mean? Almost convincing?

[hexola]

179. It means - "That's so clever...you sound like a DU'er except..."

...since you are not marching lock step with our groupthink...you must be a Freeper...trying to trick us...So we'll jump to all sorts of conclusions...and fight against everything you say - even though we aren't really paying attention.

[Must_B_Free]

180. unbelievable.

Have you suddenly become a Freeper and I didn't know about it?

I didn't think so.

Unbelievable. This place didn't used to be like this.

[hexola]

182. Haha - I lasted four whole posts at FreeRepublic...

I tried to pretend to be a Freeper once...

I was a miserable failure...

Although - it was funny - cuz I got a few PMs from other "Freepers" that said "nice job - I didn't think they would catch you..." So we must have some moles over there...

Thats what you get when you defend Kerry at FR...ZOT!

[Must_B_Free]

187. Zot

It's like their "three minutes of hate" festival.

Hey, maybe they'lll open a restaurant called "Freepers", where on your birthday Zot, all the waiters and waitresses come around and hurl insults at you.

What's funny is the accusers really blew it when they said throwing stones is "debate" and acceptable at DU, in direct violation of the rules as posted.

[hexola]

192. In real life they would just kill you dead...(nt)

[babzilla]

199. throwing stones as debate is simile

don't ZOT on me.

[Must_B_Free]

200. It the Politicians that are supposed to be throwing stones

singing Ashes Ashes all fall down

[Must_B_Free]

201. Its the Politicians that are supposed to be throwing stones

singing Ashes Ashes all fall down

[babzilla]

214. wha?

maybe I am a politician. Do you find it odd?
Ring-around-the-rosies-I-got-a-pocketful-o-posies.

[Must_B_Free]

216. Sorry

off the cuff reference to the refrain of a popular progressive theme song a couple of decades ago.

[doni_georgia]

17. Thumbs up sign in Iraq means "Fuck you"

http://128.196.21.241/cultural/iraq/culture_gestures.asp

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. "Its" He's calling a prisoner an it?

Now we now why this happened. :(

[leftchick]

113. did you read where nazi lynndie is now with...

child? I assume from her nazi fiance but who knows... :puke:

[doni_georgia]

3. I read that "racial slurs" had been written on some of the prisoners

by the soldiers. I believe tattoos are unlawful in Islam (as they are also prohibited by Old Testament law). Any mutilation of the skin is forbidden, so by writing on these prisoners (espcially racial slurs) it is yet another thing that is meant to offend Islam.

I know I keep harping on this, but trust me - EVERYTHING we have seen in the pictures are directly forbidden by Islam. These tortures were well thought out by someone.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. You are correct

there is a definate anti-Islamic message that permeates this Administration. We've had that general who spoke to churches about how 'evil' Islam is, and I don't remember Bush reprimanding him-just told him not to make more speeches. Bush himself has called the war on terror a 'crusade'. Chaplain Yee was persecuted and charges dropped, but not until alligations of pornography and adultery were brought against him (these are against Islam as well).

And don't get me started on the distortions of Ann Coulter. Her outright lies and hatred make it so I cannot read any of her articles any more.

[enough]

4. I highly recommend the New Yorker article

which is linked in Saigon68's Post#1 in this thread.

This will give you some answers to your questions and put it in a larger and even more serious perspective.

[maddezmom]

9. Yes...everyone( including lurking freepers) should read it

might make some of the doubters realize this was torture, abuse and an ongoing problem.

[mzmolly]

106. Yes, and freepers posing as *concerned citizens* who post threads

suggesting we *question* torture victims - should read it as well.

Though perhaps that's what you were thinking too ;)

[Must_B_Free]

173. Wow, you really did go off the rails.

I hate to inform you, but you were off the mark in your accusation.

You're going to have to take this and figure out what your behaviour means, in light of the facts.

You accused someone of being a Freeper and you were wrong. WHat are you going to learn from this?

[VOX]

77. ABSOLUTELY. Required reading, in fact.

The broad perspective is bleak (leading again, inevitably, to civilian contractors).

The U.S. has now sown so much hatred in the Muslim world that I see little hope of any meaningful peace between the cultures.

[Lizz612]

5. The first and the last photos

Well the last photo says "RAPEIST"
I'm the last one to be pointing at spelling errors, but this is a pretty obvious one.
As for the first one, I think the 60 minutes piece makes it clear that these photos were staged. That is the prisoners were forced to do the things you see. While the person kneeling could be female, I don't think they would keep female prisoners in the same area as male prisoners. In my opinion, the hands seem masculine.

edit clarity

[LittleApple81]

11. Isn't that sad? American soldiers don't know how to spell slurs correctly.

Another indictment for our school system.

[ithacan]

22. bad misspellings is a dead giveaway that they're freepers

if you've been here a while, you know that one of the surest ways to spot freepers is their very pathetic misspellings.

The misspelling in that photo is typical. It identifies the soldier-torturer as a freeper.

[PaDUer]

123. The spelling of "rapeist" is

for * to understand and pronounce...he would think R A P I S T would be rap-ist..the "new" music, to him! LOL

[fishnfla]

6. your just a little too late

this has all been investigated by the Army, this happened last fall and was investigated in Jan/Feb. It has been witnessed and documented

The confidential report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba was leaked to Sy Hersch and the Newsday article was just posted here a little while ago.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Read the New Yorker article

The link is posted on other threads here.

The corpse is of a man who died under questioning/torture, according to the article.

According to the article, women and young men were among the prisoners. Could be the one prisoner is that young.

It is haram to engage in homosexual acts, and shameful for Muslim men to be naked among men as shown here; no way would a Muslim man be naked in front of a woman not his wife. (Similar to the restrictions in Leviticus).

[brainshrub]

8. This is the first time I have seen these pictures.

I am so shocked I don't even have words.

I hope Skinner makes an exception and allows these pictures to remain posted.

Like the German citizens who were forced by the Allies after WWII to witness the horrors of their own concentration camps, Americans must have the opportunity to see these pictures so that it will never be repeated.

[PaDUer]

125. Well, FAUX has been showing

some of the pix and those british papers today..but, being Saturday, how many people are actually home to see the broadcast?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

13. Don't people READ the articles, or LISTEN to the TV news stories?

There seems to be this filtering going on (almost a denial kind of thing) where people seem to want to question what they are seeing. I have seen suggestions that these photos are faked, and seen people say that they were found on the net or that Al-Jazeera faked them.

The TRUTH, however, was in the very first 60 minutes story and each subsequent article - the photos were taken by the soldiers involved, and were being handed around. One uninvolved soldier saw the photos, did not like what he saw, and reported it to his commanding officer.

This happened MONTHS AGO. There was NO Al-Jazeera involvement, the pictures were NOT found on the net. The US Military has had possesion of them for MONTHS without informing the world about them, and even CBS sat on them for two weeks at the request of the US military.

THESE ARE REAL - THE SOLDIERS IN THEM ADMITTED IT!

[hexola]

14. A lot of people missed the 60 minutes piece...

I did - so yeah - there is some confusion...

The New Yorker story seems to be the difinitive bit for now...and it just came out...

I certainly wasn't questioning the authenticity...just some stuff that caught my eye...

And note: I have seen thses pictures presented with others that were clearly fakes...not on necessarily reputable sites...but none the less.

[City Lights]

18. "I certainly wasn't questioning the authenticity."

Really? Coulda fooled me.

"I have seen thses pictures presented with others that were clearly fakes...not on necessarily reputable sites...but none the less."

What's your point?

[babzilla]

24. what the heck is this thread about then?

"not casting doubt" ... "I certainly wasn't questioning the authenticity"

but none the less, that is what comes across in the op. I guess there is some confusion about what caught your eye.

Can you clarify what the point of this thread is if it is not to cast doubt or question the authenticity of the photos? I seem to be experiencing some confusion about your intended message.

Can we get a link to the clearly faked pictures you refer to? You know, the ones that have been presented along with these authentic ones that may confuse people.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babzilla]

31. still confused about the point of this thread.

The pictures shown on 60 minutes II are obviously authentic, as evidenced by the fact of the military investigation and subsequent court martialing that has already taken place.

As long as you have a birkenstock as an avatar, I guess we can assume that your motives are not odd. :eyes:

[hexola]

32. I didn't see the 60 minutes piece...

Were the pictures used on 60 minutes stills or video?

[babzilla]

34. stills

here is a snippet of the show.

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/videos500251.shtml#

What point would be rendered moot by the use of stills vs. video?

[hexola]

157. I've found one reference that says 60 minutes has only the video...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abu_Ghraib

The stuff at Memory Hole would tend to support this..screen captures.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

[babzilla]

162. why didn't you go to the 60 minutes II site that I supplied to you?

there you will find the still images. You still have not answered my question of what would be rendered moot upon the discovery of video v. still.

If you have read the New Yorker article, you would know that there are photos as well as video to support the charges against the MP's. The stuff at the memory hole actually states that the images shown on 60 minutes II were photographs.

Why do you claim it is video and why does it matter?

Please advise.

[hexola]

164. MOOT - I wouldn't have asked most of the questions...

If the source was a video...it would give a pretty accurate representation of what happened...

A photo can be subject to all sorts of wild speculation...

The link you supplied led to some video clips...not still photos...

[babzilla]

175. the 60 minutes II piece was a video clip of still photos

don't be disingenuous dawg.

[mzmolly]

108. I'm with you babzilla.. I think WE know what's up here.

:hi:

[Must_B_Free]

176. If you knew, you'd be embarassed

for your behaviour. It's pretty shameful.

You think you know what's going on but you have made an incorrect assumption, I can assure you that as a matter of fact.

[Tinoire]

57. Sadly, they were also circulated on the net on hard core porn sites

These guys were so proud of them they put them on CDs they were passing around amd mailing to people (according to another source I found)

“The investigation started after SPC Darby . . . got a CD from CPL Graner. . . . He came across pictures of naked detainees.”
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

You are so correct that the military SAT on them. They SAT on them until they had no choice but to try and fend off the coming storm of scandal.

None of this would be coming to light save for the integrity of a few soldiers who were so horrified...

Did you read this story? It explains why all of a sudden even the Brits are covering up and making all these noises (much better articulated than Bush's) about "besmirching the uniform" and all that crap.

These soldiers, like the Nazis who filmed their crimes, are none too bright but you are so right that they film it because the system under which they serve says that this is normal behaviour.

Shopworker 'sickened' by POW photos

A photography shop assistant has described her horror at photos that allegedly showed Iraqi prisoners of war being mistreated.

Kelly Tilford, 22, raised the alarm after developing the film in the shop where she works in Tamworth, Staffordshire.

She said: "I felt sick when I looked at the pictures. They were grim. I just felt awful."

<snip>

One of the images allegedly showed an Iraqi, bound and gagged, hanging from a rope on a fork-lift truck.

Ms Tilford told the Sun newspaper the Iraqi looked "petrified".

"I will never forget that terrible stare. I immediately thought, 'That's not right'," she said.

<snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2951888.stm

Sadly, even that shopgirl is fully behind this war. Just wanted the horrors of the truth of what is going on over there thrust into HER face because her conscience can't face it. She wasn't properly programmed to accept it as normal.

What an evil mess this all is.

[Tinoire]

15. God these apologetics make me ill.

:puke:

Get over it! People are going to FRY. There are eye-witnesses and soldiers with an apparently more developed conscience who willingly told the truth.

You seem to be fascinated with these photos.

The guy receiving the blow job seems to be enjoying it.

:puke:

It's not clear to you? The act of RAPE is so mispelled that you can't decipher the word "RAPEIST"?

Maybe with a little more effort :eyes:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

28. No Hexola, I won't "get over it"

The answers to all your questions are in the numerous articles which have been posted in LBN and in GD. Conveniently you ignore those but follow the path we've seen elsewhere of trying to minimize what went on there because the photos seem staged or that the Iraqis are such sick dirty fucks that they're enjoying this so it must be ok!

I won't "get over it".

Where on earth did you learn that phrase? Seems an awful lot of people want us to just "get over" so many horrors.

They have been said to be

By whom? Where? What kind of people have said that? What kind of people's arguments are you trying to support?

Less like a forced pose

:wow:

[hexola]

29. You are implying my intent....

I asked some pretty simple questions...

I can't figure out if the shots going around the net are from video or photo stills..?

I asked for clarification on the writing on the prisoners body...

One photo lacked context...(the dead guy)

And who would put their face in somebodys butt...?

Get over it...? I learned it from you...

Get over it! People are going to FRY...

[SheepyMcSheepster]

53. as far as the face in the butt thing goes

there is no way to really tell how close the gaurds are to the prisoners butts. if she is close she is over the guys back, if she is far, well then she not close to the alleged stinky butt.

sure question the authenticity, yesterday you "knew" they were fakes.

[Tinoire]

62. Gee. How much context do you need?

We've already determined you need either reading glasses or a Freeper-English dictionary if you couldn't make out the word that was written there.

Now you need fucking context?

This is sadly reminiscent of the unbelievably insensitive things one hears at a rape trials

looks like she was enjoying it

photos lack context

who would put their face in someone's <insert own word here>

[Ladyhawk]

75. God, I hate that phrase: "Get over it." (nt)

[PaDUer]

137. Right on Tinore..

We already know a lot of sickos "get off" by seeing these pix. All I hope and pray is that these offenders don't "get off" on the charges! AND, as far as Ms Femnazi involvement, children's services should intervene when that child is born! Then let her mother put her finger up to her lips as she did when a reporter showed up at her house with a pix of her darling daughter! Bet she smoked a couple packs of cigarettes that day, or didn't she care!?

[teryang]

16. Sixth Amendment violation

...not to afford to the defense compulsory appearances of witnesses at an Article 32 hearing.

A referral to court martial after a such a denial is defective. The remedy is for the defense to request a formal deposition of the witnesses requested. If they don't do so, they may waive the right. Not affording the presence of these witnesses is obviously laden with political implications. Military justice 101.

[mopaul]

19. those MIGHT be u.s. soldiers forcing fellatio, with their heads covered

that one does look awfully clean shaven.

who's to say it isn't a forced blow job on a young iraqi man?

[RebelOne]

20. There are some other photos of a girl being raped by soldiers.

Someone posted this link at the AOL message board. Scroll down toward the bottom. I don't know what to make of it.

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

[Tinoire]

23. Fixed link and OMG the face of that poor girl

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow.htm

I have no pity for these BEASTS when the Iraqis catch them. None.

[hexola]

27. Looks like typical American porn to me...(nt)

[Must_B_Free]

35. It is American porn

those were out a long time ago and were known to be porn at at that time.

None the less it does speak to the intentions of Americans. It says we'll pay to see what looks like an Iraqi woman being raped. So, regardless of being fake, they are still pretty damning if you think of it that way.

Point 2: The reality is that these are MAINSTREAM Americans. This is no aberration or exception - this is the mindset we have. This mindset is perpetuated in the Armed services.

I live in VA Beach, so I end up sitting next to and talking with a lot of service men when I fly. They are looking at this as a holy war. Us vs them. And they all know about the famous General Black Jack Pershing back in like WWI digging a trench and filling it with pigs blood and lining up a bunch of Arabs and shooting them and letting their bodies fall in the trench of pigs blood. He had this act of terror performed against them, in front of them and they never gave him any trouble after that. A soldier on a plane told me about it.

My friend from the navy said everyone on his boat had a teeshirt that said "Kill a Commie for Mommy" and said they brainwash you with that mentality. He got out of it and now renounces it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

87. I don't look at porn.

:eyes:

[mzmolly]

111. Really? What kind of porn do *you* watch?

Looks like RAPE to me.

[0007]

177. me too!

[hexola]

195. If you haven;t had even a tiny bit of exposure to pornography...

you are at a disadvantage when it comes to understanding some of this...

[fishnfla]

30. Tinoire, I dont think those photos are Americans

The fatigues are all wrong, not desert camo. I'm not trying to be an apologist, just trying to be accurate. Another poster said he had seen them awhile ago, in conjunction with the war in Serbia.

I think someone is trying to piggy-back the rape photos from another time,persons and place, with the current prison photos in order to fan the flames.

[Must_B_Free]

36. I think we shouldn;t dismiss them

the fact they they were produced speaks for itself. Glad they were "actors" but still, the spirit of it is there, regardless of the factuality. This is the freeper attitude towards other human beings.

[Tinoire]

63. I know some of those uniforms aren't American

but in the photo that is REALLY horrifying me, the one where those 3 soldiers are holding that poor Arab woman's head with one of their appendages being forced to her mouth- those are US camis.

But you know what, it doesn't even really matter. They're all the same good old boys down there having good old fun. The uniform they wear has nothing to do with it. They're all allies under US command. That's where the buck stops- with the US command.

The ones from the Yugoslavia war, I remember those and recognize those & they shouldn't be there. They're not the one I had I mind. But damn, it doesn't bother me that they are because people need to see what goes on these wars.

None of this is really new though the scenes from the prison have a twist to them that humanity hasn't been treated to in a long time... a twist of organized perversion that horrifies to the soul.

Sigh.

[Tinoire]

82. Plenty of US soldiers walking around in Iraq in normal green BDUs

I do not know if you recall that at the beginning of this war, many of the soldiers were sent over there with normal camis. They didn't have enough of the desert ones.

Many of the soldiers over there now still don't have desert camis because the people who love their troops so much had better uses for that 87 Billion dollars

Here are a two examples. All taken from "Some Pictures a Friend Just Brought Home" http://home.wi.rr.com/davef/iraq.htm

[fishnfla]

222. its always better to be accurate

accuracy=truth

the other side distorts, not us.

[charlie]

33. The photos of the women are just sicko porn

WARNING - graphic XXX porn site

[uncle ray]

60. YES, and people need to realize that

they are going to be spun into so much more than that, but to any porn enthusiast, its clear that there was NO attempt to pass these off as legit in the acting, production, only when posted at the website above. maybe to illegitimize the real pictures?

[greatauntoftriplets]

86. Thanks Tinoire.

No pity here, either.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

160. dear god you made a mistake with your creation

:puke:

[hexola]

25. I have to believe those are FAKES!

Where did they get those green fatigues? Looks like they stole them from the set of M*A*S*H...

I wouldn't put it past our guys to do that...but - without more info...

[VOX]

73. Woodland camo BDUs in the desert??? These are staged porn pics.

And the cheap oriental rug laid out in the sand? Really.

It's a shame that these amateur, degrading porn pics are getting shuffled in with the genuine horrific photos.

[VolcanoJen]

38. hexola, all of the answers to your questions are contained in...

... this New Yorker article, which others in this thread have urged you to read. Have you read it yet?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Everyone really needs to read this story, and the mainstream media needs to start reporting the truth about Abu Ghraib: those photos do not represent the acts of a few; those photos do not represent an isolated incident, as we are being told.

Those photos represent a complete failure of the Army to instill honor and values in its soldiers. Those photos represent the result of what soldiers were instructed to do by their commanding officers, and worse, private contractors.

It's worse, really, than we could have even imagined after seeing the photos for the first time. It's far worse.

That article was truly difficult to get through. I'm really starting to think like matcom... LEAD ME TO THE FENCE, TOO.

Sadly, hexola, I must also say that these words of yours represent one of the most difficult things I've ever read at DU:

The guy recieving the blow job appears to be enjoying it.

I'd go on and on, but Tinoire covered it well. :-(

[Junkdrawer]

39. Nah, hexola's too busy "not casting doubts"....

:eyes:

[babzilla]

41. guess he took his birkenstock out for a walk

hopefully some fresh air will clear up the confusion.

[Must_B_Free]

42. Should we ban Hexola from DU?

for not towing the line? I mean, he doesn't seem to ask "the right kinds of questions", does he. He seems to be obsessed with critical analysis, as if discovering truth is more important than winning.

He's clearly not "one of us", right? So he must be with "them".

You're either with us or against us, I say. :eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

43. Yeah, "critical analysis" is carefully studying these photos

to see if a man being orally sodomized is "enjoying it."

And it's "toe" the line.

[Must_B_Free]

44. So are you going to contact the mods and request a ban?

because the opinions he expressed weren't suitable by "our standards"?

[Ms. Clio]

47. Not at all, it never occurred to me

But I will continue to disagree with those opinions and find the "questions" disingenuous, at best.

[babzilla]

48. what's with the false quotation marks?

"The right kind of questions"
"one of us"
"our standards"

Just who are you "quoting"? I ask because I am conducting a "critical analysis".

[Must_B_Free]

52. That is called sarcasm

"The right kind of questions" - as if their should be a right kinds of question is a free and open society.

"one of us" and "our standards" - mocking an us and them mentality.

The "Us and Them" mentality is itself the problem and it is just as bad whether its Freepers thinking about Duers or Duers thinking it about Freepers.

The evil is in the division. We are all the same and we are one people. I am mocking your self perceived righteousness, when is reality, you are guilty of the things you strive to eliminate in others you perceive as "the emeny".

If you have been around here as long as I have, you have seen the board go from a very open and honest place to be lowered to a limited unquestioning Freeper mentality. Its still 1000 times better, but it has degraded a little bit as it has become mainstream.

For example, when I said "Randi Rhodes needs to stop attacking liberal callers", everyone jumped down my throat and said "you must be a freeper". That is Freeperization right there.

[babzilla]

56. I don't perceive anyone as "the enemy" (or sic "emeny")

so don't accuse me of such.

Seems to me you are the one being divisive here.

Or are you just being defensive due to your Randi Rhodes question experience? Sorry you were victimized and freeperized. That shit happens on this board and in life in general, it always has. Pity.

:nopity:

[Must_B_Free]

64. I'll put it in front of your face once again

Here you are in post 24, questioning that there were faked pictures from a porn move mixed in the batch:
"Can we get a link to the clearly faked pictures you refer to? You know, the ones that have been presented along with these authentic ones that may confuse people."

After which, you are provided with the link you requested.

Here you are in post 31, questioning his motives with the eyes added to explicity clarify your sarcasm:
"As long as you have a birkenstock as an avatar, I guess we can assume that your motives are not odd." :eyes:

Here you are in post 41, where you continue your personalized attack with the intention of ridicule:
"guess he took his birkenstock out for a walk
hopefully some fresh air will clear up the confusion."

And now you try to vindicate you action by stating:
"I don't perceive anyone as "the enemy" (or sic "emeny")"

When finally exposed, you resort to the last ditch refuse, ridiculing typos - basically an indication that you have nothing of substance left to defend your attack on hexola.

[babzilla]

72. so sarcasm=freeperism

whatever.

This whole thread is full of red herrings to distract from the fact that there are authentic photos of U.S.M.P's humiliating the P.O.W.'s that they have been charged to guard.

The bottom line is however "odd" they seem to be, they are in fact without a doubt authentic. That is all.

[Must_B_Free]

74. Nope that is a straw man

and he never questioned their authenticity. There was some confusion about the 2nd batch which does, in fact, contain some photos that are not authentic.

So now your position seems to be that you think there is a conspiracy to distract from the authenticity of the photos by pondering some observations about them?

[babzilla]

81. so now I am a conspiracy theorist as well as a freeper?

Yes, I confess that from the first post I suspected that the OP was insinuating that the fact that the authentic photos were posted on the same questionable website as the obvious fake porn photos was an attempt to throw into doubt the authenticity of the Abu Ghairub photos. Nevermind the fact that there is really no question that the atrocities commited are legitimate as evidenced by the military investigation as reported by the New Yorker article.

Call me divisive, freeperish or conspiratiorial as you will. I don't give a shit how many birkenstocks you toss my way (Hey, I said birkenstocks again, I hope that doesn't offend your "liberal" sensibilities).

The only thing odd about these images is the fact that there are posters on this board who attempt to misdirect the outrage that is rightly felt by short and long-term posters alike.

[Must_B_Free]

135. What else would you call this, but a conspiracy threory?

"This whole thread is full of red herrings to distract from the fact that there are authentic photos of U.S.M.P's humiliating the P.O.W.'s that they have been charged to guard."

Gee, now I guess anyone who asks some questions we don't think are politically correct is part of a conspiracy of Freepers to distract us with red herrings... :tinfoilhat:

Obviously you must be part of some conspiracy for Freepers to divide us with infighting....:silly:

[babzilla]

141. so do you believe the Abu Ghairb prison photos are authentic?

If so are you a conspiracy theorist?

If not, why not?

Just wonderin'

[hexola]

146. Has ANYONE questioned the photos authenticity? NO

I haven't...

I think they are authentic...I just want to know who and what is being depicted...

I think this story will end up being sicker than most of us can imagine...

[babzilla]

148. what do you mean?

what can be sicker than what has been depicted?

[hexola]

152. Do you think what has been depicted so far is as sick as it gets?

I don't - I think it can get sicker...

[babzilla]

156. so now it is odd because it isn't sicker?

I guess I just don't understand what your point is.
I've asked about what the point of the thread is and all I get is that they may be enjoying the fake sodomy, it may be a military S&M cult.

Please spell out, and be direct about what exactly you are insinuating about these authentic photos which depict real actions by the U.S. M.P's.

You're answers are quite evasive, although I'm sure you are quite capable of straightforwardness. Thanks.

[hexola]

161. I just asked a few questions...looking for fellow DU'er opinions...

Pretty simple ones at that...and included some of my own obervations and opinions...

Everyone is swept away with suspicion of ulterior motives...

There are no insinuations...

Notice my original post title: "What is going on here?"

NOT "What is REALLY going on here"

I just wanted to hear others impressions...I was struck by the similarity to pornography and wanted to know if anyone else had the same impression (without suggesting it)

Never have I suggested that the photos are fake...or that nobody is suffering...

I think there will be more to it than just "humiliating poses."

[SheepyMcSheepster]

170. oh really? are we just counting this thread?

"Never have I suggested that the photos are fake...or that nobody is suffering..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1507803#1507869


"hexola (667 posts)

4. I think the sex pix - FAKE!

Where did they steal those green fatigues? From the set of M*A*S*H? It's been a few wars since our guys wore anything like that, right?"


so i guess as long as "never" means "never in this thread".

[hexola]

174. Uhh - you really need to pay attention...

The photos that are part of the Abu Ghraib case that I posted ARE AUTHENTIC - NOBODY ANYWHERE has questioned that...

These photos (the ones I refer to in the thread you cite) are likely FAKE!!! And not part of the Abu Ghraib evidence.

FAKE PHOTOS BELOW : scroll to the bottom of the page...

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow.htm

[SheepyMcSheepster]

178. sorry.

but i do recall another thread were you questioned the real pics authenticity. of course i have no proof unless you care to go back and look. i am really amazed at your tenacity at getting to the bottom of what is really going on with these pictures. ah well, have fun.

[hexola]

181. no problem - sorry to make you look...

[Must_B_Free]

151. yeah. come right out and say it

you mean like some prison sex ring? Americans raping the male prisoners?

I think it is what it is. Some sick overmachoed jackasses pulling sick stunts to impress their likeminded friends.

I guess you have "Military S&M cult"? I don't think so. It's some fucking Cumberland MD hick's idea of what is funny and appropriate to do to other human beings.

The reall issue here is that this is something pretty pervasive. The Freepers probably liked the picuters. They like the idea of doing this to Muslims. Hell, we're talking about knuckeldraggers who clamour to drop nuke on them; turn Bhagdad into a glass parking lot, as they say.

[Must_B_Free]

76. Damn right I am being defensive

I am defending this board from degrading in to the sieg heil mentality of Free Republic. Sorry you have a problem with that.

and just because "shit happens on this board and in life in general," that means we shouldn't call it on the carpet? Why didn't you look at hexolas questions through those same lenses?

[babzilla]

46. just doing my part with the truth discovery bit.

I did find these statements offensive, no matter what type of critical analysis is being attempted:

I cant tell if the person giving the blow job is a male or female.

The guy receiving the blow job appears to be enjoying it. Note the lack of facial hair (you can see a bit of his cheek) Do these prisoners shave?

Sorry to disappoint, I don't see this as an us vs. them sort of deal, I must B free to question motivation. Don't hate me for my freedoms.

:eyes: back at ya

[Must_B_Free]

49. back ah ya, huh? Lobbing a bomb at me, huh?

I cant tell if the person giving the blow job is a male or female.

How is that offensive? What I watch for is dirty tricks - something lobbed in our direction to evoke a response to define us that can later be used against if the tables turn, due to a calculated dirty trick. For example, if the WMDs show up, we can be demonized for saying so emphatically that they weren't there. So I personally take everytihg hyper skeptically, even when it appears to support my position.

The guy receiving the blow job appears to be enjoying it.

Granted,this isn't noting the natural reaction of shock, but I did notice it myself. I think it's interesting that the prisoners are so western versed that they are familiar with the sort of standard poses of commercial porn. An I think it speaks to the fact that we (meaning Bush's America, not you and I) have had a need to perpetuate an image of the Islamic world as extremely backward and barbaric - the "cavemen" image, when in reality, I think they are about as modern as you or I - driving around cities in cars, watching TV, wearing the same Nike sweat suits. We call them barbaric for having nooses in their prisons, instead of electric chairs. This was necessary to create an image that we are OK with killing, because we can't do it to people in which we see ourselves. The frightening reality is that they are only superficially different than us. They are us> That is the reality, we have done this to our fellow human beings.

Note the lack of facial hair (you can see a bit of his cheek) Do these prisoners shave?

How is that offensive? As many have noted, I think it's an interesting question.

What you and the others have revealed is the ingraned Freeper mentality - "if doesn't toe the line then attack it." I have been a victim of it here, and I have been a heavy poster in this community since the beginning. We are unable to divorce ourselves from the "them or us" mentality and confront critical questions and ideas that may not support our side. This is the root of the power of fundamentalism and you are essentially perpetuating it.

[babzilla]

50. sorry for your victimization

please refrain from including me in your inability to divorce from the "them or us" mentality.

Its ironic that my critical questions prompt you to accuse me of being unable to confront critical questions.

yours in dirty-tricks-watching-soveriegnity
fundamentally,
babzilla

[Must_B_Free]

54. You weren't critical of the topic presented

you were critical of the intentions of the poster. You got away from the subject and turned it into a personal attack on the poster.

"31. ... As long as you have a birkenstock as an avatar, I guess we can assume that your motives are not odd. "

What is implied is the familar old "you must be a freeper" mantra.

"41. guess he took his birkenstock out for a walk
hopefully some fresh air will clear up the confusion."

So you do a personal attack against a community member and then try to pretend that you're being critical of the subject matter?

Maybe you ought to take an honest look at your intentions.

[Ms. Clio]

55. Well, I see you can't or won't answer my "critical questions"

Probably because I'm not a "heavy poster."

So that's more of the "us v. them" mentality, I guess.

[Must_B_Free]

65. I led you to the water

don't blame me if you won't drink.

I've wasted enough time trying to get you not to attack fellow DUers that have clarified statements that you object to when you ask them to.

[Ms. Clio]

66. Well, that's an interesting characterization of this discussion

Since I haven't "attacked" anyone, but simply asked questions that were not in fact directly answered by the person who started this thread.

But carry on with the persecution rhetoric, if it pleases you.

[Must_B_Free]

70. You jumped on the same side of the argument as babzilla

so I reply to you both without discerning.

You seem to think it is someones responsibility to post a rely persionally to when even when the response has already been presented in the thread.

I think that it is your responsibility to read the thread. The answer had already presented, you just came in later after the guy had left.

[babzilla]

59. that is called sarcasm

right? Hey, I can be sarcastic too, even though I don't have a sig line that declares such.

on edit
Disclaimer: Babzilla posts mostly sarcasm and hopes she is not contributing to the freeperization of DU. :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. Depending on the manner in which it is done, questioning intent is valid

That's why we do it in the legal system.

You can bitch and moan about the deterioration of this community as you please but all communities face growth and entropy and we are not immune.

I'm not defending the other person's interrogatory so much as taking you to task for your own.

The thread starter, first of all, claims the individual is "enjoying" the blow job. That is the poster adding HIS interpretation to the picture since we don't have sound effects nor do we have the moment before NOR the moment AFTER those pictures.

The poster was directed to the Hersch article on POST # 1 and could have clarified it post haste, but by post 21 is using phrases like "sandbag" over his head (it is worht noting bigots call Arabs sandniggers...so one wonders where "sandbag" came from) and uses "dirty butt" as though the prisoner IS a dirty butt and not a human being.

Once taken to task by Tinoire, he tells HER to get over it rather than say..."look, I read the article, now I know"

On post # 27, it's "Looks like typical American porn to me

Three hours later, Volcano Jen AGAIN posts the Hersch article but Hexola is long gone from the shit storm even though he is still around and posting on DU...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1507803#1507869

So yeah...I think INTENT is a legitimate course of inquiry so long as one does not deviate the rules.

[Must_B_Free]

91. Witch hunt

To my sensabilities, you have defeated the point you were making with these:

"but by post 21 is using phrases like "sandbag" over his head (it is worth noting bigots call Arabs sandniggers...so one wonders where "sandbag" came from)

Uhhh, a polyfiber bag that you put sand in? Which is what those bags on their heads look like.

"and uses "dirty butt" as though the prisoner IS a dirty butt and not a human being"

You are definitely reading too much into that one in your attempt to demonize Hexola. Anyones butts are considered "dirty" no matter how clean they are. That's why we wear underpants. :shrug:

In fact, I see this ludicrous attack on Hexola and the pathetic justifications for it as WORSE than his original "offenses".

[mzmolly]

126. Ludicrous? What's ludicrous is this thread and the fact that anyone

would defend it.

[babzilla]

197. hey, I took an honest look at my intentions

after much consideration I have surmised that I was critical only of the topic presented.

No community members have been harmed in the production of this thread.

[Ms. Clio]

51. Well, I have some "critical questions" about this post

I cant tell if the person giving the blow job is a male or female.

How is that offensive? What I watch for is dirty tricks - something lobbed in our direction to evoke a response to define us that can later be used against if the tables turn, due to a calculated dirty trick. For example, if the WMDs show up, we can be demonized for saying so emphatically that they weren't there. So I personally take everytihg hyper skeptically, even when it appears to support my position.

The only "dirty tricks" here are being performed in the photos, and those have been confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is really not an issue that can be turned against us (and there will never be any WMDs, either, unless they are planted.

The guy receiving the blow job appears to be enjoying it.
Granted,this isn't noting the natural reaction of shock, but I did notice it myself. I think it's interesting that the prisoners are so western versed that they are familiar with the sort of standard poses of commercial porn. An I think it speaks to the fact that we (meaning Bush's America, not you and I) have had a need to perpetuate an image of the Islamic world as extremely backward and barbaric - the "cavemen" image, when in realisy, I think they are about as modern as you or I - driving around cities in cars, watching TV, wearing the same Nike sweat suits. We call them barbaric for having nooses instead of electric chairs.

I want to know how you can tell the guy is "enjoying it???" And why you think they posed themselves according to western pornographical traditions? It is far more likely that they were posed by their torturers. The rest of this paragraph, about the Iraqis being modern and civilized (which of course, they are) makes little to no sense in this context--it is the soldiers who are torturing them who are barbarians.

[Must_B_Free]

58. response

"The only "dirty tricks" here are being performed in the photos, and those have been confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is really not an issue that can be turned against us (and there will never be any WMDs, either, unless they are planted."

Who says they won't be planted? If you were a scoundrel who usurped power, wouldn't you do whatever it takes to protect yourself? I fully expect planted WMD's, I just think it's too hard pull it off with out them being obviously identifyiable as western made fakes.

want to know how you can tell the guy is "enjoying it???"

The poster clarified that statement here:

yeah - has his hands on his head - like a man might do to a woman blowing him...and less like a forced pose...although worth noting the the blower seems to still have the sandbag still on his head..."

It was simply asking an honest question. And to demonstrate the honesty - that he considered yuou suggestion, he offers a point in support of your opinion - that the blower has a sandbag on his head, which to me implies that they have to be posed by the guards because they can't even see what they are doing.

You are the one saying "by the nature of the question asked, you must be a freeper". Hexola has clarified the intent of his questions, as requested, yet you still seem intent on demonizing him as a Freeper.

And why you think they posed themselves according to western pornographical traditions?"

Were you there? Do you know for certain what is going on here? Are you certain enough to feel confident in attacking a fellow community member? I guess so. The rest of us are just looking at what's there and throwing ideas at it.

It is far more likely that they were posed by their torturers. The rest of this paragraph, about the Iraqis being modern and civilized (which of course, they are) makes little to no sense in this context--it is the soldiers who are torturing them who are barbarians."

Sure, if you remove it from the context I set up it makes little sense, I agree. That is the nature of things taken out of context.

[Ms. Clio]

61. my response

"The only "dirty tricks" here are being performed in the photos, and those have been confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is really not an issue that can be turned against us (and there will never be any WMDs, either, unless they are planted."

Who says they won't be planted? If you were a scoundrel who usurped power, wouldn't you do whatever it takes to protect yourself? I fully expect planted WMD's, I just think it's too hard pull it off with out them being obviously identifyiable as western made fakes.

I agree, they would plant them if they could. But there would be far too much doubt about it for it ever to be "turned against us," as you orginally stated.

The poster clarified that statement here:

yeah - has his hands on his head - like a man might do to a woman blowing him...and less like a forced pose...although worth noting the the blower seems to still have the sandbag still on his head..."

It was simply asking an honest question. And to demonstrate the honesty - that he considered yuou suggestion, he offers a point in support of your opinion - that the blower has a sandbag on his head, which to me implies that they have to be posed by the guards because they can't even see what they are doing.

I still don't see how the position of his hands proves anything, except that he posed as his torturers forced him to do. And, wherever the poster offered this information, it was not in response to me.

You are the one saying "by the nature of the question asked, you must be a freeper". Hexola has clarified the intent of his questions, as requested, yet you still seem intent on demonizing him as a Freeper.

Please find the post where I called anyone a Freeper. I was questioning the guy's moral compass, not his political convictions.

And why you think they posed themselves according to western pornographical traditions?"

Were you there? Do you know for certain what is going on here? Are you certain enough to feel confident in attacking a fellow community member? I guess so. The rest of us are just looking at what's there and throwing ideas at it.

I feel absolutely confident they did not pose themselves, and certainly did not do so because they were modernized folks who had access to western pornography.

On edit: I do agree with you about Randi's rudeness to callers, however.

[Must_B_Free]

67. Sounds like we are in agreement on just about everything

"You are the one saying "by the nature of the question asked, you must be a freeper". Hexola has clarified the intent of his questions, as requested, yet you still seem intent on demonizing him as a Freeper.

Please find the post where I called anyone a Freeper. I was questioning the guy's moral compass, not his political convictions.

That was an ad homonym characterization of the criticism against hexola.

I'm sorry, I don't have more time to invest in this pissing match. Hopefully I have clarified my objections.

[Ms. Clio]

68. You call it a "pissing match"

I call it a "critical analysis."

Ta ta.

[Must_B_Free]

71. The pissing match

is the waste of time that has resulted from you and babzilla trying to defend your indefensible positions against another community member's intentions for asking some questions.

[Ms. Clio]

78. again you deliberately mischaracterize this discussion

In fact, most of my conversation with you has been about the photos themselves, and I noticed you prefer not to tell me how the position of one of the victim's hands in a torture situation can in any way be construed as indicating he was "enjoying it."

And yeah, I find the "questions" odd and offensive. That doesn't mean I'm calling for the dude's head on a stick, so stop pretending I am.

[hexola]

83. My first impressions upon seeing the pictures....

I did not see the 60 minutes piece...

I saw the pics first on DU (a DU'ers screen shots) which were accompanied by only scant details of the 60 minutes piece...

My first impression was that this was some sort of S&M bizzaro Military orgy...that involved torture. I can't deny - the setup has a amatuer porno feel to it - but that is just my impression.

Why did I have that impression? Just the body language...the hands on the guys head. I dont know that he is enjoying it. But - it resembles somebody who is enjoying it. And again - the hood does appear to be on...so it may well be simulated.

[babzilla]

88. why didn't you state the S&M bizzaro Military orgy theory to begin with?

That would have explained a lot about your questioning.
Don't leave us hanging without your own personal interpretation of the situation.

Perhaps you have watched Eyes Wide Shut once too often. Or maybe you have difficulties with separating porn from reality, it happens, especially if the incidents are all jumbled up on an unreliable website.

No offense, I think your first impression is odd, doubtful and inauthentic. Just stating my opinion in this "free and open society forum".

[hexola]

92. I had to think about it...

Honestly - I couldn't quite put my finger on that characterization...

And I didn't expect people to jump all over me for asking a few very tame questions...

[Must_B_Free]

94. "And I didn't expect people to jump all over me "

yeah? Well that's what we do here now. We're just like the Freepers we claim to be superior to.

The "Them" mentality is the downfall of any movement. We were supposed to be inclusive and big umbrella, but I guess that strategy is over.

If we can't give this up we are doomed to be a passing phase like the Freepers are find themselves now.

[babzilla]

98. yeah, we are surely doomed chicken little

the downfall of our movement is upon us.

BTW its big tent, not big umbrella. There's room for everyone, even those with doubts about the oddity of torturing P.O.W.'s.

Check back in November and see how doomed we really are, a passing phase, no doubt.

[Must_B_Free]

99. "even those with doubts about the oddity of torturing P.O.W.'s."

Still clinging to that, huh? That was debunked, if you hadn't read it.

[babzilla]

101. what was debunked?

Are you saying that the P.O.W's weren't tortured? Please advise.

[mzmolly]

118. I think that happened once. Didn't last though.

People are banned from DU on occassion for not "being one of us." DU is a discussion board for Democrats/Liberals. If one reveals themselves through various *suspicious* activity/posts, one can be banned.

So yes, essentially, your either with us or against us.

[Ms. Clio]

40. I'm curious as to how you can discern this "enjoyment?"

In fact, I find this thread, and your questions and comments, here and elsewhere, very curious indeed.

[hexola]

89. The whole thing looks more like an S&M orgy than torture...

The hands on the head - thats more like how willing participants would pose...not like a person who was being forced or intimidated...

[babzilla]

95. hands on the head are a sign of willing participants?

so someone being ordered by their captors to put their hands in a certain position is a willing participant and someone being forced or intimidated into putting their hands in a certain position is differentiated by ....? Who is being odd now?

[hexola]

100. Those are all great questions...

They are differentiated by intent.

Why would one prisoner use a "dominant/submissive" pose on another? Especially if they are both "submissive?" (prisoners)

And it's still not clear - are these stills, stills from video?

[babzilla]

103. wtf is your obsession with stills v. videos?

I told you upthread, according to the New Yorker article, the military investigation included stills and video.

What is the moot point that you claimed in the OP that depends on stills v. video? I still don't get it?

I hate to break it to you, but every prisoner is submissive and every captor is dominant by definition.

A prison isn't a porn fantasyland prone to s&m orgies where everyone gladly takes to their assigned submissive/dominant roles.

Gee, how can there possibly be dominant/submissive when they are both prisoners?

This is not role playing, it is real life in an occupied territory prison. :puke: (my first puke)

[hexola]

107. Video is a more definitive description of the events...

That can't be that hard to understand...

Stills would allow for all sorts of wild speculation...

Gee, how can there possibly be dominant/submissive when they are both prisoners?

Perhaps some of them are not prisoners...

[babzilla]

116. sorry, they are all prisoners which is easily understood

it is apparent that you would rather believe that the victims of this incident are merely the manifistation of a military S&M cult.

Are you asserting that the hooded folk are merely U.S. military people playing S&M games. Please tell me that is not what you are asserting. Where you came up with that idea? I don't want to know.

I don't buy it, the military investigators don't buy it, and surely most of the people on DU are skeptical about that theory to say the least.

Talk about your wild speculation. That takes the cake.

[hexola]

119. Merely the manifistation of a military S&M cult?

Well...maybe...But where do I suggest that would be any less degrading and dehumanizing?

[Must_B_Free]

127. What is apparent is that you are obsessed

with defining some supposed "beliefs" and pinning them on to people that you make into opponents.

You were shadow boxing in the first place, and now you're being combative to try to save face.

[babzilla]

147. bullshit

when someone breaks out the S&M military sex cult, as opposed to the obvious circumstances, which have been upheld by a military investigation I don't believe it is I who is obsessive, combatively saving face, nor shadowboxing.

Ridiculous:hi:

[hexola]

150. But wouldn't a military S&M sex cult be even more damning?

Not less...as you seem to suggest...

I dont see that as downplaying...

I think we will find this is far sicker than any of us are currently thinking...

Even CBS sat on this...

[babzilla]

163. no, a military S&M sex cult would not be more damning

than war crimes against POW's.

One is consensual which does not fit the sick quotient, the other is torture. See what I mean?

[hexola]

166. No No - A military S&M sex cult that is committing war crimes against POWs

...only one side is consenting...the POW's are still being tortured.

[babzilla]

219. so the gig is that there is an S&M military cult

preying upon the POW's?
OK, what is the differentiation between your average war crime and the S&M driven war crime? What is your point? Is there an extra layer of evil going down here, or what?

[hexola]

225. Yes, exactly - maybe...

Just calling it torture may be too kind...and extra layer of evil indeed...

It's one thing to be driven to inhumanity by war...but adding S&M is more evil than just "posing" them in piles...This looks like something they were doing for fun...enjoying their work...not lashing out, not vengeful. Just evil...playing a sick game.

[hexola]

153. Thats like asking "What is your obsession with the truth...?" (nt)

[babzilla]

208. its nothing like asking that

don't be disingenuous dawg.

[hexola]

212. It was a question - not an obsession...

[Ms. Clio]

96. Hmmm you've been going to some wayyyy different S&M orgies than I have!

To me, that just indicates that the victim is being deliberately posed and humiliated.

The rest of the photo provides the real context. The man trying to hide himself, the other man either bent over screaming, or trying to pull the torture device off his head--most of all, the New Yorker article reveals the huge sickening picture.

[dawn]

45. The reason you think they are faked...

is probably because these images are so unbelievably digusting.

When confronted with imagery like that, your first thought is, "that can't be real!" That's because you would probably never think of doing something like that to a living being.

[Forkboy]

79. Oh yay...another one

:puke:

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

97. er....k

:silly:

[Must_B_Free]

129. Another What?

[Forkboy]

207. Another wacky thread

your deleted post was funnier.

[hexola]

80. The point all of you have missed...

and maybe I should have said this sooner...

I'm suggesting that these depict something, perhaps, far more bizarre and disgusting than what is being described...that's why I asked about the video or stills...it's a lot easier to say what is happening in these pictures if they are part of a video...video would say more about the spirit and intent of those involved. If they have only still pictures...they are far more subject to interpretation.

The Hersh story seems to decribe what is seen in these pictures. Not sure if these shots represent one, or many incidents. The most interesting thing about the Hersh piece was the implication that this was a systemic problem and not just an isolated group of hooligans...yikes!

Further inspection by one DU'er has suggested that the woman is actually pretending to hold a machine gun...a bit different (and I think more correct) take than Hersh's (see below)

Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi..

Not a detail that lessens the impact - but one that adds specificity...

So I think it pays to question the details...

[babzilla]

84. there is video too, the details too graphic for the official report

you really should read the new yorker article if you are interested in questioning the details.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.


There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added—“detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.” Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their “extremely sensitive nature.”

[jimshoes]

102. Hope this evidence is secure somewhere.

Might come in handy at a trial.

[mzmolly]

104. Riiiiight. What a disgusting thread.

I thought you were no longer with us Hexola? hmmmmmmmmmmm......

I'd say welcome back but.............

[babzilla]

110. watch out mzmolly

you may hereby be accused of contributing to the freeperization of DU.:shrug:

[mzmolly]

112. Ahhh, after perusing the thread, I get what your saying.

I think some people who post here may bring friends from other places? Either that or there are more ignorant *leftists* than I thought? :shrug: ;)

[Must_B_Free]

131. Oh I get it...

There's good leftists and bad leftists, now huh?
:crazy:

[mzmolly]

134. No there are leftists and those who pretend to be leftists.

:crazy:

And, I think I know enough of the *authentic* sort to judge who's who.

[Must_B_Free]

136. Oh, and which one am I?

Do I meet your official standards for being a authentic Leftist?

[mzmolly]

139. *official* I don't have official standards, just common sense.

I will refrain from comment on your person at this time. You honestly have not made a stong impression on me frankly.

[Must_B_Free]

149. Your message seems all mixed up to me.

In post 112, you imply that people who don't agree with babzilla are "ignorant leftists"

Then in 134 you claim that you "know enough of the authentic leftists to judge who's who."

Now in your next post, 139 you say "I will refrain from comment on your person at this time." and then you proceed to do just that, by saying "You honestly have not made a stong impression on me frankly"

This has been a beef for me for years even within the hippy culture. Freedom means you don't judge other people, period. Too many hippies started thinking it was about the outward appearances. Just because someone doesn't have long hair and a tie dye doesn't mean he's not a hippy. And just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they are not an authentic leftist.

In my opinion your position is like the evangelical right, who are so far "Christian" they they don't even understand even the basic messages of Christianity anymore.

I guess we're just not worthy to be on the same board with "authentic" leftists such as yourself. Sorry, I'll work on correcting my beliefs and opinions for you so I can support Freedom, by your standards.

[Must_B_Free]

130. That's funny

you accuse people of being Freepers and somehow you're the victim? :shrug:

[babzilla]

154. that's funny

I thought you were the victim that accused others of being the cause of the "freeperization" of DU.

I believe that is exactly how it played out above. :shrug:

[Must_B_Free]

158. You're trying to confuse two different things

The fact is that you implied that other fellow DUers were Freepers because their ideas didn't meet your standards. You are trying to defend that, which is dispicable.

"Freeperization" which I brought up, is something entirely different. That is a process whereby we sacrifice our core values, the belief that people should be allowed to think and speak freely wihtout people throwing stones at them. So we become arrogant and become that which we have opposed which is not an uncommon phenomenon in history.

I'm saying lets not become the Freepers by jumping to statemants that amount to "It's a Zot", which is the type of sentiment that I believed you to be fostering in your kneejerk reaction.

By the way, a "Zot" is an Free Republic phenemon in which they accuse someone of being a DUer then they proceed to tombstone them and they all stand around and piss on the corpse, by posting a barrage of disparaging responses. They try to do with words what those guards did to the Iraqis in the pictures.

[babzilla]

168. stone throwing is an accepted practice here at DU

Its called a debate.

I am not familiar with the ZOT factor, thanks for the enlightenment.

Do me a favor and don't compare me with the Iraqi prison guards.
Even though my words may hurt you it doesn't compare to war crimes dude.

[Must_B_Free]

183. Not really - here are the message board rules

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post so the moderators can deal with it. Unfortunately, it has become all too common for members of this message board to label anyone with a slightly different point of view as a disruptor. We disapprove of this behavior because its intent is to stifle discussion, enforce a particular "party line," and pre-emptively label a particular point of view as inappropriate or unwelcome. This makes thoughtful and open debate virtually impossible.


I'm sorry I wasted my time arguing with you, I should have just hit alert and had the rubbish removed by the mods.

[babzilla]

188. I'm sorry, I didn't believe I have called you any names

now you are calling me or my posts rubbish? Do you think that is against the rules that you have posted?

No argument is a waste of time. That is why we are here right?

[Must_B_Free]

198. I'll post it again

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper.

You have to read the whole thing, especially the part I put in bold.

[babzilla]

203. I read your bold parts

I didn't accuse anybody of anything, as you well know.

[Must_B_Free]

215. You're being generous to yourself

"This whole thread is full of red herrings to distract from the fact that there are authentic photos of U.S.M.P's humiliating the P.O.W.'s that they have been charged to guard."

"I must B free to question motivation"

The rules:
Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule.

[babzilla]

221. OK stretch

you can B_free to your own interpretations.

Are you sayin' I'm cute? If you only knew, not to mention the tits. If you only knew.

[Must_B_Free]

223. Well, sassy is always cute.

I believe you. I bet you're a looker, hon. I'm sure you are.

I'm just saying put a handle on the chutzpa, try to be nice to our friends, here.

[mzmolly]

105. What's *ODD* are your questions?

These people were obviously degraded. :hi:

Hope you have enjoyed yourself today Hexola.

What a sick ass - disgusting thread.

[hexola]

114. If I had questioned the photos of the returning caskets...

Pretend the info about the NASA casket mixup hasn't hit...

I believe I would be attacked in a similar way if I had said...

"Hey something about this particular picture looks wrong..."

I would have been accused of trying cover-up for BushCo...or whatever other Freeper plot the kneejerks here come up with...

[mzmolly]

115. You are suggesting that torture victims have a * hard on *

amongst other ridiculous bullshit.

Speaks for itself really.

[hexola]

117. Yes, a hard on (erection)...under oath testimony...

Wisdom testified:

I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn’’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said,

"Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds."

I heard PFC England shout out, "He’s getting hard"

I too find it hard to believe these prisoners could be getting stimulated under these conditions...unless "the conditions" aren't what we are being told...

[mzmolly]

120. And your point would be what?! Allow me to give you a clue:

These sleazy assholes i.e. the US soldiers in question Fredrick and England ... were OBVIOUSLY humiliating their torture victims further by saying shit like "he's getting hard", "look at what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds." It was their way of having a grand ol' time at the expense of the men they tortured.

I doubt anyone had a hard on. And, if they did, it was likely due to reasons other than sexual arrousal.

Does it take a rocket scientist here? ... :wtf:

[hexola]

121. You said that they could not have a hard on...

the case testimony suggests something different...

That's the point...

[mzmolly]

122. No the testimony suggests that a couple asshole soldiers JOKED that they

did.

That's what the testimony suggests.

[hexola]

124. "one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open..."

Can one sucessfully masturbate with a limp penis? I think you need an erection to masturbate...thats the implication.

[mzmolly]

132. OMG.

THEY HAD GUNS HELD TO THEM!

As to your inquiry on "Masturbation" :eyes:

Dictionary.com has the following description.

masturbation

: manual stimulation of the genital organs (of yourself or another) for sexual pleasure

So, NO an erection is NOT essential to be in the act of masturbating.

As I said before, I question your motives.

Enjoy yourself, I'm outta of this bogus/disgusting discussion.

[Joanne98]

138. Men being raped can get hard-ons. I friend of mine got raped by

five women and he did. He bitched about people not believing him because of that too.

[Joanne98]

143. Here's the info. End of this argument

Victims' Response

It is not uncommon for a male rape victim to blame himself for the rape, believing that he in some way gave permission to the rapist (Brochman, 1991). Male rape victims suffer a similar fear that female rape victims face -- that people will believe the myth that they may have enjoyed being raped. Some men may believe they were not raped or that they gave consent because they became sexually aroused, had an erection, or ejaculated during the sexual assault. These are normal, involuntary physiological reactions. It does not mean that the victim wanted to be raped or sexually assaulted, or that the survivor enjoyed the traumatic experience. Sexual arousal does not necessarily mean there was consent.

According to Groth, some assailants may try to get their victim to ejaculate because for the rapist, it symbolizes their complete sexual control over their victim's body. Since ejaculation is not always within conscious control but rather an involuntary physiological reaction, rapists frequently succeed at getting their male victims to ejaculate. As Groth and Burgess have found in their research, this aspect of the attack is extremely stressful and confusing to the victim. In misidentifying ejaculation with orgasm, the victim may be bewildered by his physiological response during the sexual assault and, therefore, may be discouraged from reporting the assault for fear his sexuality may become suspect (Groth & Burgess, 1980).
http://www.rapecrisiscenter.com/Male%20Rape%20Info%20Sheet.html

[mzmolly]

144. Thank you.

Guess this clears up any possible remaining mystery.

[Joanne98]

145. Thanks. There's more on that site about war rapes.

It's pretty interesting.

[hexola]

155. Why would they write "RAPEIST" on a VICTIM?...

This puzzles me...

[Cronus Protagonist]

159. Racial/Religious slurs - maybe it was PAPEIST - meaning PAPIST

A common insult in the UK usually directed by Protestants towards Catholics and people who consort with them, but more insulting when applied to a Muslim, no doubt.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[SheepyMcSheepster]

172. probably because somewhere along the line...

it was drilled into our head that saddam had rape rooms and thus people percieved to be saddam supporters or henchmen could also be considered rapist.

[thebigidea]

128. truly a profound point.

"I move that we dismiss the entire case, your honor - on account that one of the prisoners may have had an erection at a certain point."

"Case dismissed!"

[Must_B_Free]

140. "if they did, it was likely due to reasons other than sexual arrousal. "

I wonder what reasons those could be?

Anyway, I read it as that these weren't aroused and that they were simply posed by the guards to even to torture or demoralize them for any real purpose, but simpley tht thes sick guards thgouth this was funny, and something to brag about to their buddies, who would also share this same sick mentality perpetuated to ALL of our troops through the Military culture.

I don't agree with Hexola's idea that this is somehow taken out of context. The groosest part of the pictures is not the poses and acts, but the fact that these soldiers did this amd smiled about it and joked at it.

But what irritates me is the way we treat each other around here, the "I'm a real leftist and you're not" type of BS.

[mzmolly]

142. HUH?

What's your point?

I don't believe that ANYONE had a hard on, and if they did, it wasn't out of *enjoying themselves* is that much clear?

See post 138 if you have any further questions on this dilema ...

As for judging leftists, I take into context the entire body of ones *work* here at DU before casting my judgements, and I am comfortable with my conclusion in this particular matter.

Cheers

[Must_B_Free]

165. What is it that you're asking for?

Do you want me to leave, because I'm not a good leftist? You can hit the alert button at the bottom left and tell the mods to ban me because you've come to the conclusion that, in your judgment of my *work* here at DU, I'm not a good leftist.

Of do you just want me to be a better leftist? And you can explain how to do that. I'm willing to make you happy on this. What is it?

[babzilla]

133. did it ever occur to you

that England's comment holds no credibility? That shout out was not under testimony, it was a quote from Wisdom, trying to cover his ass after he witnessed the deep shit that was happening in the prison.

When he returned later, Wisdom testified:

I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, “Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.” I heard PFC England shout out, “He’s getting hard.”

Wisdom testified that he told his superiors what had happened, and assumed that “the issue was taken care of.” He said, “I just didn’t want to be part of anything that looked criminal.”

I hope you are not insinuuating that the incident is a result of the MP's and the prisoners getting together for a titillating S&M session. It seems like you are. What are you implying by your statement: "unless "the conditions" aren't what we are being told"?

What conditions do you believe the POW's were experiencing at that time? Do tell.

[Must_B_Free]

167. Look at this

Another bad leftist on DU. Go get em folkes!

Must be a Freeper invasion, right? Time for a Zot! Right?

Just trying learn my lesson and be a good leftist, so I don't get in trouble like I did on this thread.

'That picture of the hooded man on the box with electrodes is....ART!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1511642

[babzilla]

171. oooh distraction

how's that workin' out for ya? You just don't get it do you?

[LoZoccolo]

184. THIS THREAD HAS BECOME A FREEPER WITCHHUNT...

...AND SHOULD BE LOCKED TO PUNISH THE UNSUFFERING PRIDE OF THE ACCUSERS!

[Must_B_Free]

202. Ban Him!

and if he can still post, then he wasn't a Freeper! :crazy:

[LoZoccolo]

204. Ever get accused of FReepdom?

I have. I was pissed because I'm pretty moderate and thought oh boy now everything I say is gonna be scrutinized.

[Must_B_Free]

211. I haven't been accused of Freeperdom

I could be accused of Cheaperdom, since I haven't donated in the whole time I have been a member which was around Selection 2000. I would be curious to see when I first came to DU.

[hexola]

185. Mods: Feel free to lock...we've reached the point of diminishing returns..

[robbedvoter]

186. hexola is a listener of Rush: he is a great humorist (sic), his Clinton

jokes were very humaros (sic). Air America is a failure, Franken is a lame imitation of the great humorist.
Just a little help for the people who seem confused or think they can "enlighten" hexola.

[Must_B_Free]

189. He IS a listener of Rush

and so is Al Franken, so he must be a Freeper too, huh?

[hexola]

191. Yes please tell me what to think and believe...

...and while your at it...dont lie about what I have said...

Show me where I said:

"Air America is Failure" You cant...

"Franken is a lame imitation of the great humorist" You can't...

I said Rush is pale immitation of his former self...which is why I don't listen to his show anymore...he's booring.

[LibertyorDeath]

206. robbedvoter thanx for the info

Why do they all pick such lame user names.

[hexola]

210. Hexola from The Hexbelt = PA Amish Belt

[LoZoccolo]

190. Who will be last to post before the thread is locked?

I wonder.

[LoZoccolo]

193. Did Eisenhower say "beware of the military S&M complex"?

:shrug:

[hexola]

196. LOL - And I never say LOL - but I really am...(nt)

[ShaneGR]

194. This is a very ugly thread

Sad really.

[LibertyorDeath]

205. Hexola & Must_B_Free are

one & the same freep. IMO

:)

[hexola]

209. Not quite...

I'm actually quite the lefty...

I am currently working with a group who has filed a Federal lawsuit challenging Corporate Personhood...

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/news/stories/20040325/localnews/148353.html

[Must_B_Free]

218. Wow this is ugly.

you had to club them with your leftist credentials.

I guess there's nothing they can say, now.

Gee, do I have anything online that would allow me to pass the leftist litmus test?

[John_H]

213. I wonder if this is going to be the RW spin.

Public proclamations of disgust, combined with a whisper campaign via talk radio and the Internet: insinuating that this a spontaneous consensual gay orgy erupted among those depraved gay Iraqi prisoners, that the pictures are faked perhaps because no self-respecting white woman would get so close to a brown skinned butt, and that since one of the guys was (grafittied as) a rapist he somehow deserves to be tortured instead of receiving a trial and then the appropriate punishment if convicted.

If so, it's probably unnecessary. The stupid and twisted wack jobs that comprise Chimp's base have already formulated these justifications and everyone else will be even more appalled.

[hexola]

217. Another person who didn't read the post - you just "read into" it...

The complextion of the female guard and the "prisoners butts" seems the same to me...

And again - poy attention - nobody is suggesting that these are fake...nobody.

Are you suggesting that is a permanent tattoo?...not just someting they wrote on him with a marker?

[Must_B_Free]

220. I think what she was doing was pushing the guy onto the top

I believe these guys couldn't see through the bags. So they had to be positioned.

But now the info about the supervisor deferring control of that region to a special group and being told to stay out of there for fear of having to report what went on in there... That makes it sound like there were far more hideous tortures going on in there that are covered up.

It sounds like they were running a whole Psyop torture assembly line in an attempt to extract information.

[hexola]

224. That's what struck me about the Hirsch piece..

The suggestion that this had become a systemic problem - not just bad apples...

[John_H]

226. LOL!

Actually, I did read your post. Then I chuckled at the futility and Wal-Mart quality spin attempt, posted my reply, fixed myself another Knob Creek rocks, and went about my merry way.

Nobody suggested the picks are fakes? "You would think she wouldn't get THAT close to the prisoners butts...this picture could be from anywhere." Yeah, hexola, and we're all three.

"Are you suggesting that is a permanent tattoo?" No. I'm sure the Nazi Freeper National Guardsman torturer who wrote R-A-P-P-I-S-T on the Iraqi used a crayon.

I guess we'll just have to see, as this story gets spun by the insert-false-teeth-here crowd, if it sounds just a little like your post.

[Must_B_Free]

227. No, I already know their spin

I heard it in the airport yesterday as we were sitting there wacthing CNN tell the story and show the pictures. One guy said out loud to the guy next to him, "Well I guess it's just OK for them to drag our guys through the street."

That's all the farther they need to go in their minds. It doesn't take much to placate them.

[TahitiNut]

230. Yup. I heard that exact same spin. I think it's from Chris Matthews.

It's now "Do unto others worse than they do unto anyone."

And these psychopaths call themselves ... ? :puke:

[Must_B_Free]

231. There is no defense though

that's the good news. I think you only make yourself look stupid by trying to defend this. So they can grumble that, but in the end it's just part of their denial, and they know it.

[rman]

228. the guy on the right is covering his ears, the writing says "RAPEIST"

-

[Oddman]

229. Each photo is an al Qaeda recruiting poster . . .

Absolutely disgusting.

Torture = War Crimes.

The world hates us even more.

Terror spreads even more.

Our safety erodes even more.

Blood is on the hands of our Lady MacBush.

Out damn Bush! Out, I say!

[TahitiNut]

232. To the question of what Lynndie is doing ...

... I think perhaps she's either performing or pretending (obscene parody) to perform a "cavity search." I get the impression that's what's being parodied by having these men get down on all fours, even in a pyramid. (Making it easier to access, I guess.) We can see the prisoners' clothing on the floor along the wall. One of the pictures with the New Yorker article shows these prisoners in that same clothing (the red is recognizable) and what look like plastic handcuffs. I think that's what the gloves are supposed to signify: protection during a cavity search. I could be wrong, but it seems to fit.