The accused soldiers are not evil!

[usrbs]

There’s something very wrong about the way we’re reacting to this - as if they are outside the pale of human behavior, and so very very different from any of us. These acts were abusive, wrong, and brutal, and certainly should be punished, but the general in charge of the prison, and the Pentagon and Bremer and Bush are ultimately much more to blame. I’m assuming that most of the accused had nothing to do with the detainee that seems to have been beaten to death, and I’m assuming that real electric shocks weren’t applied to anyone.

What we’re left is mostly illegal and cruel acts of humiliation, the garden type of cruelty, the kind that is in almost all of us. And before you press the alert, I want each of you to look into yourself and answer these questions - have you ever been a bully, instigated or participated in bullying acts, even just as a bystander? And when you were a witness to bullying, to cruelty, to viciousness, to racism, what did you do? Did you stand up for the victims, did you speak up against it? Or did you walk away, or remain silent out of cowardice, or did you even pretend to guffaw and participate so as to be one of the “in” crowd?
I am considered a compassionate good-hearted person by my friends and family, (my uncle nicknamed me “the saint”), and yet while I don’t remember any big acts of cruelty, (which doesn’t mean I didn’t commit any), I do remember staying silent when I should have spoken out, saying the witty remark that was also quite cutting, and refraining from the compassionate action because it was easier not to commit it. In general, I struggle every day to be a better person than I am, and for me it’s a struggle, not something that comes naturally.

Cruelty and worse is so endemic throughout the world, throughout human history that’s it’s hard not to conclude that it is part of the human psych, and that most, if not all of us, are all capable of shameful and wicked acts. I’m even willing to go out on a limb and speculate that if this had never come out, and the pictures never been published, at some point in the future, Ms. England would look back on this, and feel shame and regret and disbelief that she had ever done such things.

Read this link in Counterpunch. See how easy it is to be swept up in inhumanity.

Hold On to Your Humanity
An Open Letter to GIs in Iraq
By STAN GOFF
(US Army Retired)
http://www.counterpunch.org/goff11142003.html

Do you think this man was evil? He obviously did much worse things than the accused soldiers, but as you see from his writing, he’s full of regret now. Or maybe he was evil when he was in Vietnam but not any more. Then what happened to the evil? Did it leach away magically?

Because it’s so easy to lose your humanity, because it’s so easy to abuse your power, the rules of conduct must be set from the top, procedures must be put in place to monitor and regulate behavior, and regulations must be strictly enforced. That obviously wasn’t done here, probably because it wasn’t deemed important to do so. That’s why the general in charge of that place should be court-martialed, and those above, all the way up to Bush, should be impeached, these soldiers, and even more so, the civilian contractor interrogators should be punished. Just don’t call them evil.

[Snoggera]

1. The people who actually perpetrated the criminal acts

may be described as "evil." Look up the definition of the word.

Those who allowed it to happen may also be described as being "evil."

It doesn't detract from the fact that those who perpetrated the crime are liable. They are not children that pulled the wings off of flies. "Mommy, I didn't mean to!!!!"

Yes, they did, with full knowledge, and therefore evil.

[Hubert Flottz]

4. The Government hanged Nazis who did these kinds of things!

They too(Nazis)were just doing their duty according to them! That defense did not hold water then nor does it now! What these people did is FLAT FUCKING WRONG, and they knew it!

[saigon68]

25. IRMA GRESE and HERTA BOTHE

The women jailers of Bergen Belsen



IRMA GRESE center HERTA BOTHE w/smirk on right

After the war survivors provided extensive details of murders, tortures, cruelties and sexual excesses
engaged in by Irma Grese during her years at Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. They testified to her
acts of pure sadism, beatings and arbitrary shooting of prisoners, savaging of prisoners by her
trained and half starved dogs, to her selecting prisoners for the gas chambers.
She habitually wore heavy boots and carried a whip and a pistol. She used both physical and emotional
methods to torture the camp's inmates and enjoyed shooting prisoners in cold blood. She beat some of
the women to death and whipped others mercilessly using a plaited whip.
After the Kommandant of Bergen-Belsen, Josef Kramer, Irma Grese was the most notorious
defendant in the Belsen Trial, held between September 17 and November 17, 1945. Grese was
convicted and sentenced to be hanged. She was executed on December 13, 1945.

The notorious Herta Bothe became a camp guard and soon acquired a reputation as
a sadist who beat prisoners without mercy. She had a good time shooting at weak
female prisoners carrying food containers from the kitchen to the block with her pistol.
And she often beat sick girls with a wooden stick. After the war Herta Bothe was
charged with having committed war crimes. At the Bergen-Belsen Trial she got
imprisonment for 10 years.

[Hubert Flottz]

30. The American Dream is now a Nightmare thanks to Bush!

I could not sleep last night thinking about this and the trouble is that the nightmare starts again every day when we wake up now! I HOPE there is a GOD!

[saigon68]

24. WAR CRIMINAL LYNNDIE ENGLAND "HE'S GETTING HARD"

At the Article 32 Hearing (like a grand jury hearing) Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P under
oath stated

Wisdom said:
SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right
to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the
pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its
ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I
thought I should just get out of there. I didn’’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick
walking towards me, and he said, ““““Look what these animals do when you leave them
alone for two seconds.”””” I heard PFC England shout out, ““““He’’’’s getting hard"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[Catholic Sensation]

2. You seem to be missing the point here

They were taking great joy in the torture they were inflicting upon the POWs. Taking joy at the torture of another human being, regardless of who they are, makes someone evil.

These six/seven soldiers are evil, just like Saddam was evil, just like Uday and Qusay were evil. Once you cross the line into torturing helpless people, you cross the line into evil.

"Because it's so easy to lose your humanity." That's bullshit and you know it. You're basically saying that we should be less angry about what they did because it just kind of happened. If Iraqis did this to American POWs, would you say the same thing? Would you say "well Saddam sort of got swept up in the inhumanity of war, and tortured those soldiers." No I don't think you would.

So once again: the soldiers who tortured those Iraqis, and took obvious joy in doing so, are evil.

[usrbs]

18. My point wasn't to excuse the soldiers

They deserve to be punished, and shouldn't have done what they did. Read Symour Hersh's article http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact, they should have behaved like Darby. I want to believe that is what I would have done. My point is that I'm not 100% certain that under all circumstances I would. That's why prisons must be regulated and supervised. But what they did wasn't that extreme. I wish that all Saddam had done was to fake electrocute people and humiliate them. I could only bear to read very small bits about what actually took place under his regime, and I had to stop.

But you live in a different world than I do, if you think this is so special.

[Catholic Sensation]

27. Please enlighten me

Please tell me how people who can take obvious glee at forcing men into sexual positions aren't evil? Don't give me the bullshit "it wasn't that extreme." They threatened to electrocute people if they fell from boxes, forced a bunch of naked men to lay on top of one another, and forced a bunch of naked men to basically 69 each other, all the while laughing their evil little asses off. What's extreme for you? Crucifixion?

I don't know about you, but I can say with 100% certainty that if I were in their positions, I would not have tortured them, but maybe I suffer from something called COMMON SENSE. Not just to save my ass, but thinking how this would reflect on my country and my military.

They're selfish sick people, who are evil.

[usrbs]

38. I wouldn't have tortured them, I wouldn't have laughed.

I'd like to believe I'd be like Darby and turn them all in, but who knows how they'd behave until the moment arrives.

I don't call them evil. I call them callous and stupid and uncompassionate and unfeeling. You encounter many such people in Middle school. I reserve evil for very few, for Saddam and his sons and the people who tortured children in front of their parents.

[Catholic Sensation]

41. torture is torture, and torture is evil.

taking joy in torture is evil.

People who take joy in torturing others are evil.

There's absolutely no moral relativism here.

[Tinoire]

60. It is from this same prison

that women were brutally raped and forced into sexually lewd acts as they were taped. The tapes were then shown to their fathers, brothers and families.

What do you call that if not evil? It is the equivalent of the things Saddam allegedly did.

[SemperEadem]

67. I cannot believe you're that dull

" But what they did wasn't that extreme."

That sounds like something uttered by a truly ignorant, pridefilled Christian westerner who has no clue about Middle Eastern society and has made absolutely no attempt to understand the deeply religious orientation of an Islamic nation.

Spoken by one who was raised in a western society used to having instant access to pornography, who lives in a society where body-baring clothes are no big deal, no, it wouldn't be extreme. But to a country that is steeped in Islam, where there is heavy emphasis on modesty and prayer, it is an unconceivable outrage.

The ugly American rears its head again.

[Ilsa]

3. I think they are

stupid and brainwashed. Maybe hyped up, or have PTSD. But they are no more evil than George Walker Bush, may he burn in hell.

[r_u_stuck2]

5. People of the lie

Understanding and defining evil should help all of us in our daily lives.

While I do not agree totally with everything written in "People of the lie" by M. Scott Peck, I feel for the studious it is worth reading, though not a pleasant read.

In the later chapters he talks about "institutional evil" surrounding the Mei Li (spelling) massacre in Viet Nam.

If you really want to understand how cover-ups propogate and perpetuate, then read this book.

Here is a well written review from the amazon site.

"Peck so accurately diagnoses the "people of the lie" as being so self-absorbed and narcisistic that they continually make excuses about the abuse they heap upon other people, somehow turning every story 180 degrees in the opposite direction and always claiming victimization when the situation so clearly points to them as the perpetrator. It is a sad indictment of what must be a pandemic within institutions, as these folks clamor and cling to power, money and title oblivious to the human carnage left in the wake of their passing. "

[comradebillyboy]

6. evil is not the issue

lack of command oversight and a complete breakdown of military discipline are whats going on. the general in charge should be the first one to face a court marshall for dereliction of duty, for not supervising the people under her.

the mal treatment of prisioners may also be influenced by military intellegence trying to extract information by torture.

nor can we ignore the administration's open contempt for international law. the facility at gitmo, for example is a gross violation of the geneva conventions.

the torture of iraqi prisoners solidifies the image of america as occupiers and tyrants and provides moral support for the insurgency.

we talk a good talk about freeedom and justice, but in iraq, we don't walk the walk. we no longer have any moral authority in the arab world.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

8. theres a big issue here with command and control, yes...

...especially how the contractors where involved in this. This is much more serious than one thinks...

[usrbs]

23. I totally agree with you. That's the real scandal.

Dod they mustn't get away with just shifting all of the blame on the soldiers. As Seymour Hersh's final line in his article states: “Do you really believe the Army relieved a general officer because of six soldiers? Not a chance.”
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[G_j]

31. that is the way I see it also n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

7. I'm not about to hug my inner Nazi, or to

absolve the perpetrators because they're merely human.

These were evil acts, though I don't believe we should stop with scapegoating those who conducted these outrages. I believe they were acting on orders. But they are still responsible for their actions, whether they violated their consciences, or had little moral constraint to begin with.

An insightful read regarding the evil ordinary men, and women, are capable of: "The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide" by Robert Lifton.

[comradebillyboy]

9. indeed the perps know the difference between

right and wrong. one of the troops had the courage to go up the chain of command and look for justice. he is a hero. the others including the chain of command to the commanding general are war criminals.

[Katarina]

10. garden type of cruelty????

My God, I cannot believe what I am reading? What was done to these people was inhumane! It wasn't just cruelty! It was torture! We have created so much hatred and the violence that will come from this will be horrible. We desecrated these people! These men have nothing more to live for. We took away any pride they had. These people did not ask for this! It makes me sick! I am ashamed for my country. They are evil, each and every one of them. I don't care what anyone says or the excuses they make. Right is right and wrong is wrong. This was WRONG! Garden type of cruelty my ass.

[saigon68]

28. A BAG ON HEAD FOR FREEDOM COLLECTION

A BAG ON HEAD FOR FREEDOM COLLECTION

By Ralph Rumsfelt Fashion Wear
Created by Chief Designer Wolfman Wolfowitz
Produced by HALLIBURTON HOMEWEAR --A division of (ETR) Exorbitant Tax Ripoffs LLC






This Iraqi man is wearing the latest in Ralph Rumsfelt Fashion Wear.

It's from the "I'M WEARING A BAG ON MY HEAD FOR FREEDOM COLLECTION"

Said Wolfman Wolfowitz chief designer of the collection. "Our work is meant to inspire Co-
Operation on the part of the wearer". He continued, "Sometimes a good swift ass kicking gets
them in a proper frame of mind to wear and model our creations."

Next up US govt approved chromed and plated testicle crushers !!!!




Wearing the latest fashion in wear for captured Iraqis is Saddam Al Masser of Fallujah. In a
Wolfman Wolfowitz inspired creation, made especially for Iraq-Nam II. Mr. Masser models a not
too tight Designer white Head Bag. When asked how it felt Mr. Masser commented "MH$#)(*&%$$"

This creation is produced and marketed by HALLIBURTON HOMEWEAR –A division of
(ETR) Exorbitant Tax Ripoffs LLC








SOMETIMES IN AN EMERGENCY A PLASTIC SANDBAG HAS TO SUFFICE.



SOMETIMES NEEDING ENCOURAGEMENT

Note the Smiling guard’s admiring Stare at the soon to be covered model’s face. A bit of
coaxing and encouragement is sometimes needed before the model humbly accepts the new
“look” in Fashion wear



Note the smiling expression on the US ” helper” right



This is also done to entertain the troops and these 2 soldiers are properly impressed by the light
carnival atmosphere


The Plane ride sponsored by Myers Airways (Your best friend in the Air)

[usrbs]

29. Unfortunately, most of it was garden type,although I agree it was inhumane

The ones who just did humiliation should get at least one year in prison, anyone who actually beat or touched a prisoner several more, and anybody with authority much much more.

My daughter was terribly bullied in middle school for many months, until she finally broke down in front of a teacher and disclosed this. Parents and teachers alike were horrified and shocked. What was done wasn't all that far off from the soldier pointing to the genitals and laughing. Cruelty is all around us, and in my opinion, getting worse, maybe because of the video games and movies. (After World War 1 they discovered that most of the soldiers never even fired their guns).

[Katarina]

40. Excuse me?

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

This is wayyyyy more than middle school bullying going on here. My son was bullied in middle school because he was overweight. He was called names, not sodomized!

You think they should get one year in prison? Wow, aren't you generous. Do you not understand what we have done to these men? Can you not comprehend???

Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. “Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other—it’s all a form of torture,” Haykel said.

Those "soldiers" took away any kind of life these men will ever have. They have nothing left to live for. What we did to them is unacceptable. There is no excuse.

I cannot believe that I live in a world where cruelty to animals is met with more outrage than what has happened to these people. Animal abusers get more jail time than what you are suggesting for these "soldiers". I feel sick.

[usrbs]

43. Read my post more carefully

I was talking about those that just laughed and humiliated the prisoners, not those that actually did physical torture. (I read Seymour Hersh's article after doing my post).

[Crunchy Frog]

51. I believe that what happened to those prisoners

was the functional equivilent of rape. I hope some people on this board don't begin referring to rape as "garden variety cruelty".

If those same people were ever raped themselves I would hope they would not come onto this board to complain about having suffered from such a mild and insignificant form of mistreatment.

By the way, I was horribly bullied in Jr. High School, and I don't regard my experience as anything remotely comparable to what was done to these prisoners.

[Ladyhawk]

73. Some people won't "get it" no matter what.

"If those same people were ever raped themselves I would hope they would not come onto this board to complain about having suffered from such a mild and insignificant form of mistreatment."

I actually had people tell me my own sexual molestation as a child was "mild" and "shouldn't have affected me." This kind of thinking is just plain disgusting.

I'm so very sorry, but had I been at that prison where the Iraqis were being tortured, I would not have participated and would certainly have blown the whistle. Any decent human being would have done the same. The people who did this with glee are evil.

Why is it so hard for us to admit that there is evil in the world when the evidence is all around, plain to see? How many photographs have to be shown before we are sickened into knowing that what is being done to the Iraqi prisoners is immoral and, yes, evil?

As human beings, we are fallible: true. So it's up to each of us to keep from performing evil acts. I've done some things in my life I'm not particularly proud of, but none of the things I've done could be called "torture." My conscience would never allow it. My own personal gatekeeper is too busy evaluating the consequences of my actions. These people failed to let their gatekeeper do a proper job. They and only they are responsible for the acts they committed. "I was only following orders," doesn't cut it.

[alcuno]

11. Are they evil? That's a * term, evildoers, and I rarely adopt his lingo.

How is being silent during a "witty" cutting remark the same as what these people are doing? I do not accept your moral equivalence. Both are wrong and one is pure evil.

[Snoggera]

17. It isn't *'s lingo

It is language that we all use. If one knows the meaning of a word, then one should be able to use that word in a sentence without fearing some mental reference to a negative.

Liberal. You damn liberal.

Look up the word and be proud of being a liberal.

The right wing doesn't determine the true meaning of words,

yet.

[meow mix]

12. nice minimalizing, excuse me while i go throw up

*GAG*

[Ladyhawk]

74. You are so right.

Some people want to "minimalize" what was done. I'm sorry. There just isn't any good excuse.

And the Greedy Old Party doesn't have a monopoly on the words "morality," "good," and "evil." In fact, they have twisted the meanings so beyond recognition that some people don't want to use them at all. I think that--like the flag--we need to reclaim these words as our own.

I'm learning not to paint the world in black and white, yet there are some things which are definitely "good": helping your fellow man, for example. No one could misconstrue that as evil (except maybe Rush Limbaugh and his dittoheads). There are some things which are definitely "evil": torturing your fellow man, for example. No one could misconstrue that as "good." Or, at least, that's how it should be.

There's plenty of middle ground between these two extremes, but in the case of the tortured Iraqis, it seems pretty clear that what was done to them was evil.

[Streetdoc270]

13. evil is as evil does....

As people they have committed evil acts of unspeakable atrocities. You cross the evil line when you are so proud of the atrocities you have/are committing that you pose for scrapbook photos. These acts are the same exact things that GW spoke about in the rush to war, rape rooms, beatings, humiliating torture, etc. We have become what we are against.

[PretzelWarrior]

14. HOW CAN YOU RATIONALIZE THIS?!!? here's food for thought.

this is just what we KNOW about. based on the photos we saw re: British troops last year and now this, how do you know US soldiers aren't raping Iraqi women like happened in South Korea, Okinawa, Kosovo and other lovely stopping points for our best and brightest US soldiers.

DO I feel the vast majority are participating? No. DO I feel it is a significant minority? Perhaps not. But when you are touting yourself around the world as GOd's instrument of justice you better damn well be able to back it up with truly just behavior

Since this is not the case, Bush is clearly getting marching orders from Satan, prince of darkness.

And you are carrying water for these criminals by attempting a lame defense of them that they "are humans too".

SO THE FUCK WHAT? Maybe you should be preaching to those perverse men who lost that point when they subjected the prisoners to such inhuman and cruel behavior.

[usrbs]

42. Not rationalizing. Just relating to what I see around me.

Yes, So the fuck what? Well, since you know what people are like if they are unrestrained, don't let an atmosphere like this develop in the first place. Make sure this doesn't happen by stressing the expected behavior, monitoring it, and setting the example from above.

I look around, and see what people are capable of. Laughing at other people's humiliation is certainly within that circle.

And everything is relative. To compare these acts, as reprehensable as they are, to physical torure, murder, and rape lets those that commit the worse acts slightly off the hook. In my opinion.

I'm not saying that these soldiers aren't guilty, I'm just not shocked, and I also think that most of them will feel guilty and remoreseful as they mature in life.

[w4rma]

15. I tend to agree, usrbs. The leadership is primarily responsible for this.

I would like to see more focus on the folks who lead these soldiers (some of whom are only Privates in rank) rather than the soldiers themselves.

[nostamj]

16. i'd make a 'cutting remark' here

but, you might think I'm evil...

how many of these 'aw, there's just frat boys havin' a little fun' threads will there be?

[maddezmom]

19. makes me want to puke...

there are 2 threads right now. :puke:

[maddezmom]

39. last night equal to frat hazing and today...garden party gone wrong

:eyes:

[Katarina]

20. Too damn many, if you ask me!

There is no excuse for this. None whatsoever.

[mmonk]

21. The guilty people

are caught up in a broader madness enhanced by the leadership and a sense that (due to propaganda, jingoism, and Christian fundamentalist mentality) that Americans are superior humans or, that people from the middle east are less human and collectively guilty for 9/11.

[City Lights]

32. You nailed it!

We always tout ourselves as being the civilized ones, the ones who set the example others should follow. I guess when the CIC is a towel-slapping frat boy who got his jollies from blowin' up frogs as a kid, this kind of shit should be expected. Welcome to shrub's America. :-(

I wonder if this sympathy thread would have been started if our soldiers were treated like this at the hands of the Iraqis.

To the original poster - yes, there have been times in my life when I've done things I wasn't proud of, but I was in middle school at the time, not in my 20's.

[Crunchy Frog]

54. If the Iraqis had done something like this

to our POWs, there would be people even on this board ready to nuke the entire country.

I mean, hundreds of innocent civilians were killed this past month in Falluja simply as retaliation for the killing and subsequent mob action against four mercenaries.

I believe that I've seen far more outrage here about what happened to the mercenaries than about what happened to the hundreds of civilians.

I sometimes have the impression, even here, that if it happens to an American it's an atrocity and an absolute travesty against nature, while if it happens to an Iraqi it's simply an unfortunate byproduct of war. Regrettable, but just one of those things.

[kalian]

22. I don't feel one ounce of pity for these "soldiers"...NOT ONE

This is clearly an act of barbarism. To come out and claim that they
"were not trained with regards to the Geneva Convention" is NOT
an excuse.
What they did was WRONG. These soldiers are VOLUNTEERS. They signed
the dotted line and they KNEW what they were getting into. If they
wanted to play soldier and be an "Army of One", they also KNEW that
there are RULES to warfare. The deserve to be court-martialled and
then hung.

Now, imagine the kind of shit that might be happening behind the
gates of Gitmo... Imagine how much of this might be happening
on a daily basis that we don't know about because of the tight
military control of the media.

THIS is why the Arab world hates us. THIS is what will bring about
the true wrath. THIS is what will create REAL terrorists that have
a REASON to fight.

How DARE we consider ourselves "better" than some of these regional
despots. Could someboday care to explain how we're "better"? Hmmm?

:mad:
I want my country back...now!!!

[bobthedrummer]

26. Sgt. Frederick worked as a Virginia prison guard for 6 years, he's 37

he was the NCO looked upon for leadership in my civilian opinion, he's a war criminal- but I can only hope that the promise of his attorney to name the names of all the spooks involved in this whether military or civilian comes to pass.

That is what spooks most fear, publicity. This is the time to speak out about these criminals and the corruption hidden in "national security", which is also a miserable failure.

We do need more exposure of these MERCENARIES employed by the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President, they are paid with our tax money and are responsible for increasing anti-Americanism worldwide, they are actually helping the cause of Osama Bin-Laden too.

All that is right out of PNAC, imo.
:nuke:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

50. Doesnt this bug anyone?

He was a prison gaurd for chrissakes!

What does that tell you about Virginia prisons? Or their guards?

Man, if he was a gaurd I sure as heck he didnt think this was how to treat prisoners in Virginia...or maybe thats what he wanted to do, and got the chance in Iraq. This is really an eyebrow-raiser for me.

[Ladyhawk]

75. My brother is a prison guard.

He likes to call himself a "correctional officer" and thinks he's a badass because he can be cruel to people behind bars. He has regaled me with stories of cruelty meted out to inmates and expects me to laugh and congratulate him. Back when California still used the gas chamber, he used to walk Death Row at San Quentin, singing, "Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is."

It wasn't (isn't) his prerogative to punish the inmates. If my brother were in Iraq, he'd be right there among those who did this, getting his jollies. And I'd still be calling it evil.

There's something about the mindset of some prison guards that is very, very scary. They choose the profession so they can be in control. And there aren't nearly enough safeguards in place to make sure the prisoners aren't harmed.

Disclaimer: I'm sure not all prison guards are like this.

[mouse7]

33. Life sentence for those who help investigation... Hang the rest.

Anyone who aids the investigation should have their lives spared. All the rest, from private to general to civilian contractor, need to hang.

[IronLionZion]

34. If you were their prisoner,

would you feel the same way?

[usrbs]

45. I would want them punished, and would think that they're human

and would hope that they'd live long enough to regret it, so the answer is yes.

[TeeYiYi]

35. Yeah . . . they are. ...n/t

TYY

[the_real_38]

36. They're evil...

... n/t

[Tinoire]

37. Please do not drag Stan Goff into this as if ALL soldiers do this

Stan is a good friend of mine and I know his history inside and out. He was relieved from Haiti for REFUSING to condone certain things and for speaking out against them.

I know what nightmares he speaks of and they are NOTHING like what these sick, twisted fucks did at Abu Ghraib with full knowledge, consent and encouragement from the command.

Just another garden party gone wrong- is this the new defense?

I hope you will be as understanding of evil when pictures of unimaginable torment heaped upon our prisoners and missing GIs start showing up on sadistic porn sites.

You assume that real electric shocks weren't applied? I will assume that you assume that real forced buggery and fellatio wasn't included and that the victims were just placed in those positions just for a photo op. If you believe that, then you should have no fear of the revenge the Iraqis will extract on our soldiers when they catch them because surely they'll understand the harmless concept of NAZI garden parties.

Things were done to those people. HORRIBLE, UNFORGIVABLE acts of cruelty.

From the lowest private ALL THE WAY UP, I want EVERYONE involved in this to burn- everyone involved in the cover-up and everyone involved in the apologetics. The apologists are the worst, for they would deny decent people our sense of humanity by telling us that evil isn't evil and that we all have a grain of this in us so we should just condone it as a silly prank, an unfortunate incident and move on.

I will not move on & I will not shut up. And I certainly will not feel any symathy and compassion for the twisted minds that think this sort of stuff is normal because that's what allowed the evil that went on there- the acceptance that this is normal behavior.

The Germans were convinced that what they were doing was acceptable also, that what we were seeing in those photos were just people being humanely deloused & that the piles of corpses were the result of an unfortunate outbreak of typhoid because they were not evil. EVIL IS AS EVIL DOES. There are no ifs, ands and buts about it.

Eichmann pulled out loving, fatherly letters to his children to prove that he was not evil. Hitler would weep at the sight of a dog in pain. Surely those are not the acts of evil people so they couldn't be evil. They were just 2 guys in charge of a garden party gone wrong according to your theory.

The boys from Langley are very busy this week-end because this same Nuremberg defense is popping up all over the internet:

"We were just following orders".

I can't wait for Nuremberg II to see the entire chain fry.


There are more pictures out there. Pictures of what was done to the women in that very same prison.

Do you seriously think the rape rooms went unused? Some of those women were sent back from those garden parties into the streets half-naked for all to see after they had been abused.

This evil is what sparked off the rage in Fallujah & not that lie that the city erupted because the US wanted to shut down a newspaper.

The city erupted because of the sick, twisted, sadistic, evil acts of the some very evil people. But when people spoke against it, garden-party apologists would come here and tut-tut that "we don't do such things" "we are the most humane army in the world" and all sorts of garbage to shut the stories up and aid Bush in covering up his crimes as if immunity from the World Court isn't enough.

Now that the photos are out, for ALL to see, how can you stand there and call it a garden party type of cruelty.

((with thanks to Chookie))

<snip>

The real facts are that there is report after report of US abuses; on the internet, in the back pages of our newspapers, in personal accounts that with a little luck will now make their way to mainstream press. This is not an isolated few - this is business as usual for the US military and their collaborating band of thugs in Iraq. Is it any wonder that bodies of US soldiers who fall into Iraqi hands are mutilated and displayed?

The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS (Jihad Unspun). We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to "loose" Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq's religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner "cooperation" by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along.

The Arab world is outrage. The Muslim Ummah is outraged. Iraqis are outraged and so are people of conscience everywhere. I pity the next soldiers that fall into Resistance hands. And contrary to its belief - America can be defeated and most likely will be defeated and dangled at the end of its own pathetic rope for all the world to see.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

[saigon68]

46. Tinoire according to Hersh some SFC was involved directly?

seen that?

[Tinoire]

57. I saw that..

Remember the cover-up we were discussing and how only 6 "low-ranking" soldiers are the ones they want to throw to the mob while covering for the others...

That was a great article.

[Political_Junkie]

48. Thank you, Tinoire

Using Stan Goff's letter to excuse this behavior is not right. It seemed to me when I originally read that letter that he was warning these soldiers not to get involved in these sort of atrocities. He was in no way excusing this sort of behavior.

[usrbs]

49. I actually agree with most of what you say so it's hard for me to answer

If you read my post carefully, you'll see I was referring to those who did nothing more than humiliate the prisoners. And you're right about the effect of that on the Arab world. I think those should get a year in prison. Anyone who did more should get more, and the worse the crimes, the worse they should get. I don't believe anybody should burn - I'm against the death penalty.



I wasn't one of the garden party apologist because I know we do such things, and by far are not the most humane army in the world. So what's your point.

[saigon68]

58. The pictures of the 2 dead bodies are going to be a problem

In spite of what all of you may think about the military I believe that part of it will be investigated very fully. There is no way "that" will be covered up.

Becasue if they don't do anything about that---- no one on our side will ever --- ever believe anything they tell us or do.

[Tinoire]

59. I tried to be clear. Appreciate your candor but disagree in essence

I tried to be clear and thought my point was albeit brutally stated because I am very angry. I think you're assuming an awful lot and minimizing the horrors of what was done to the victims of those crimes. It seriously bothers me that despite the fact that we have an excerpt of the official report that includes

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

you would post that what they did was not outside the pale of human behavior, and so very very different from any of us. If you can sympathize with those sadists, I am sorry, I can not. Evil is evil; there is a certain point where you have crossed the line, no matter how blurred it may seem in certain places, and are solidly planted on the side of evil.

illegal and cruel acts of humiliation, the garden type of cruelty, the kind that is in almost all of us

Do you really think you have these acts in you? I have a hard time believing that. These types of acts are not in me nor in any of the people I know and served with during 20 years in the military. None of the honorable 76E interrogators I worked with on live missions ever did anything this horrid no matter what type of information they were trying to get.

What is this "garden type of cruelty" you speak of? Killing slugs before they get to your tomatoes is garden type cruelty. How can you even call this that?

have you ever been a bully, instigated or participated in bullying acts, even just as a bystander? And when you were a witness to bullying, to cruelty, to viciousness, to racism, what did you do? Did you stand up for the victims, did you speak up against it? Or did you walk away, or remain silent out of cowardice, or did you even pretend to guffaw and participate so as to be one of the “in” crowd?

No. The answer to your question is a clear, unequivocal HELL NO. Sympathy for the perpetrators of vile acts is the name of that game & it won't fly. It's the first thing any lawyer tries when he tries to get some reptile off the hook or to get his just sentence mitigated.

I wish that all Saddam had done was to fake electrocute people and humiliate them.

We don't really know what Saddam did other than what we were told by the very people who were needing to justify this war but assuming, accepting that he did those things, which are not uncommon, not even in THIS country, why should we accept the worst from the other guy without any proof while subtly minimizing what we did because we can't feel the electrocution passing through your own bodies? How much more graphic do the photos need to get? I certainly hope you don't have it in you to insert your thumb in a prisoner's rectum and proudly pose for the photos that are going to put on CD and distributed as proud mementos.

Most of the people I know stand up and denounce evil, stand-up for the little guy, don't walk away, and don't remain silent.

I am very angry about this and can't fall for searching within ourselves to see what we may have in common with the perpetrators of these crimes. That only serves to minimize what they did and continue our merry way along this evil war and an occupation as immoral as the occupation of Palestinian lands.

While I agree with some of the thoughts you expressed, I won't be jumping on your band-wagon of compassion now, after millions of Iraqis have died (last 11 years) and thousands slaughtered over our INEXCUSABLE crime of waging war to conquer that region & impose the US dollar as OPEC's currency. How much more do you need? Or shall we bury our shame under a Jenin-like rubble and content ourselves with the fact that "at some point in the future, Ms. England would look back on this, and feel shame and regret and disbelief that she had ever done such things" because we remained silent when all of this was beginning? Was taking place?

I didn't remain silent. Most of us did not. WE were damn loud, out in the streets, phoning, faxing, writing. We were NOT silent. People like Stan Goff spoke out LOUD and CLEAR.

My question to you is "How silent were you?" A search on your name doesn't reveal a single post speaking out against this evil. Search within yourself usrbs and ask if it's not from shame of having been silent that you now find it psychologically necessary to minimize these atrocities. We are the new Nazis Usrbs and it's extremely sad to see that until the day the world forces us to file past the heaps of abused corpses, we don't really want to own up to the fact that we are supporting systemic evil.

What I call a "garden party apologist" is someone who despite the graphic pictures they've seen and the things they've read here, concludes that those soldiers did "nothing more than humiliate the prisoners" or what that girl's mother nothing more than "stupid, kid things - pranks". It's the same type of apologist crap showing up on the conservative boards and it distresses me to see it here.

"a year in prison"??

Good God. Are we looking at the same photos? Reading the same stories?

All that said, I really do appreciate the candor of your pos; I simply cannot minimize any of this or excuse it as mere humiliation because that is exactly what the people in Washington now cowering from fear at having their shame exposed, want us to do. It's their only hope... that the world will understand. It was also the Nazi's hope which is why they went to such pains to proudly document what they were doing.

The similarities Usrbs are simply astounding and very shameful for us. We need to continue speaking up loudly and clearly.

Let the defense try to make the world empathize with those people, that is not our job. Our job is to denounce, expose, and to instransigeantly demand that anyone involved be brought to justice. I agree right along with you that these 2, those 6 are not the only ones, aren't even the important ones but they did unspeakable things to those people and I want everyone involved exposed, hounded, shamed and punished for crimes against humanity. They have stolen those people's humanity.

Thank you for an interesting thread and for the candor of your replies.

[usrbs]

81. you deserve an answer, even a late one

I had to leave, so couldn't answer before.

you would post that what they did was not outside the pale of human behavior, and so very very different from any of us. If you can sympathize with those sadists, I am sorry, I can not. Evil is evil; there is a certain point where you have crossed the line, no matter how blurred it may seem in certain places, and are solidly planted on the side of evil.
I agree with you here that those that did the sickening acts described above have crossed the line. I’m not sure if they can be redeemed, by which I mean I don’t know if people who act this way can ever grow enough to feel empathy towards the other. I suppose that if they can’t, they can be called evil. But that means there are a hell of a lot of evil people in this world...

Do you really think you have these acts in you? I have a hard time believing that. These types of acts are not in me nor in any of the people I know and served with during 20 years in the military. None of the honorable 76E interrogators I worked with on live missions ever did anything this horrid no matter what type of information they were trying to get.
No, I do admit that isn’t in me. As I said before, I wouldn’t have been one of the participants. The person I am today would blow the whistle. I’m not 100% certain that the person I was at 20 would do so. I hope I would, but I don’t know.

have you ever been a bully, instigated or participated in bullying acts, even just as a bystander? And when you were a witness to bullying, to cruelty, to viciousness, to racism, what did you do? Did you stand up for the victims, did you speak up against it? Or did you walk away, or remain silent out of cowardice, or did you even pretend to guffaw and participate so as to be one of the “in” crowd?
No. The answer to your question is a clear, unequivocal HELL NO. Sympathy for the perpetrators of vile acts is the name of that game & it won't fly. It's the first thing any lawyer tries when he tries to get some reptile off the hook or to get his just sentence mitigated.
Good for you then. Go to a middle school, and see what goes on in some of them. It’s much rarer than you think to stand up and try to stop it.

Most of the people I know stand up and denounce evil, stand-up for the little guy, don't walk away, and don't remain silent.
Most of the people I know are good people, too, or I wouldn’t be around them, but as for most people standing up for the little guy - you’ve got to be kidding! Just look around and tell me that this world has a majority of such people. But your friends sound very cool. Can you loan me some of them?

Or shall we bury our shame under a Jenin-like rubble and content ourselves with the fact that "at some point in the future, Ms. England would look back on this, and feel shame and regret and disbelief that she had ever done such things" because we remained silent when all of this was beginning? Was taking place?
That wasn’t what I said. Of course she should be punished. Of course this whole thing should be put under the spotlight and NOT swept under any rug. I just objected to the “evil” label, based on what I thought she did, and what her background seems to have been.

My question to you is "How silent were you?" A search on your name doesn't reveal a single post speaking out against this evil.
Why in the world would I post here to stop the war? - it would be more helpful to post in Freeperland. As you can tell by my post count, I don’t post a lot period. I’m very slow at the keyboard, and I try to save it for when I have something to say, which obviously doesn’t happen often. For the record I did participate in the huge last protest- for all the good that did. I have donated more money than I should have to the Democrats, and have joined several groups dedicated to bringing down this horrible president. I also try to educate my fellow employees by sending them articles and information they’re not getting from the TV. I even ordered a “Quagmire accomplished” bumpersticker. I know Kerry is no panacea, but I don’t think the world can afford more years of *.

"a year in prison"??
Rapists get 10. Murderers 15. And that’s before getting their terms reduced for good behavior. Remember, I’m not talking about those that did anything physical.

Our job is to denounce, expose, and to instransigeantly demand that anyone involved be brought to justice. I agree right along with you that these 2, those 6 are not the only ones, aren't even the important ones but they did unspeakable things to those people and I want everyone involved exposed, hounded, shamed and punished for crimes against humanity. They have stolen those people's humanity.
Yes, they have. Yes we should make sure that everyone involved gets what they deserve. I just think that would be more likely to happen if we don’t describe this as unspeakable acts of bestial soldiers, but rather what tends to happen when you let people have unlimited, unsupervised power over others, without very firm guidelines and checks and balances.

[bpilgrim]

52. thanks for that post

can't help but think about the scene in the movie THREE KINGS...



this will haunt and cause suffering for all of our troops everywhere in the world, NOT only iraq not that that will have any impact on the neoCONs plans i'm sure :argh:

:hi:

peace

[the_real_38]

44. How the hell could you not say they're evil?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Only if you don't believe in evil - but then you're still left with really, really bad.

[usrbs]

47. Some of them were, or pretty close to it

i read that article after my post, which was about those that just laughed, humiliated or stood by. When you add rape, torture, and the rest, you cross the line.

[Tinoire]

61. Thank God! You were beginning to worry some of us. And now?

Now how do you feel about it?

[teryang]

53. Herr Rumsfeldt's responsibility

The CIA and contractors involved...should be prosecuted under the new law granting criminal jurisdiction over civilians outside the US.

This is Rumsfeldts responsibility under the statute.

Think it will happen?

[kiahzero]

55. I know I'm like a broken record on this point, but

If you want to understand why this happened, read up on the Stanford Prison Experiment.

http://www.prisonexp.org/
http://psychology.about.com/library/weekly/aa060100b.htm

A significant portion of the blame for this lies in the military establishment itself - the necessary dehumanization of an enemy, so that relatively well-balanced people can still kill them, leads to these kind of abuses.

[Tinoire]

62. So very very true

which brings to mind the GI's nomenclature for Iraqis - "Sand Niggers". Kind of says it all right there.

Only by dehumanizing a group can you get normally decent people to commit such inhumane acts. It's the same things the Nazis did, made Jew out to be sub-human.

Same thing we did in Vietnam with the "gooks". Same thing the Israelis do to the Palestinians- dehumanize them so that their deaths become a marginal item of the public agenda- collateral damage in other words.

[kiahzero]

63. Which is why you need strong institutions

I can't help but put a significant portion of the blame on the military institutions surrounding these people - it's a fact of human nature that things like this will happen in the wrong environment. A responsible leadership would recognize that fact, and do everything in its power to minimize the risk of it happening.

Then again, we know that this leadership isn't responsible at all.

[Lizz612]

56. While I don't agree with you,

I can't agree with some on here either. I think thats because I am uncomfortable with both a strict moral code and pure moral relativism.
The blame must be spread. These people did not do the actions in a vacuum. They were lacking supervision and structure. At the same time, they must have had some training in how to handle prisoners. They must have some sense of common sense remaining, no matter the circumstances.
I feel really divided about this. Seeing some of the polarized views on this thread is not making me feel any less divided.

[freeforall]

64. None of us can blame any other person for our own actions

Period.

Ultimate responsibility for their behaviour lies with them.

[Deja Q]

65. They ARE vile

I wouldn't ever think of doing something that depraved and horrific. And, guess what? I'm a human and am therefore prone to engaging in human behavior. (Well, some forms of it anyway...)

Let's throw those bastards in the clinker, melt the key, fuse the lock, and be done with it.

[dawn]

66. No, I have never been a bully.

Sorry.

[dsc]

71. really?

You mever, not even one time, stood by when one of your friends bullied a fellow student? Such people are pretty rare to be honest.

[dsc]

68. I think your point would have been better expressed

as that they were no more evil than many other people are. Your comparision to bullying is more apt than some on here would like to admit. I had a very rough time in middle school and from the humiliation standpoint can say it was pretty much just like what happened to those prisioners with the exception that no women were involved with my humiliation. I will say the violence was much worse for the prisioners and I am assuming that no anal rape other than with the objects occured but I was stripped down, displayed, and forced to pose in '69' type poses. The people who did that to me are not what we call criminals. They have wives and kids and are not in jail. They look like ordinary, people. The live like ordinary people. I think that was the central point of your post but it got lost in the they are not evil theme.

[usrbs]

78. That's exactly what I meant to say

Thanks for clarifying my thoughts. :)

(I had to leave before noon, and just returned now).

I think, unfortunately, that there are many people around with that kind of cruelty. God, it's just unthinkable, and I mean that literally, it's just something you can't bear to think about - how awful people can be. I feel so bad for the kid you were, and for the rest of the victims. And you didn't even have nationalistic justified shared hatred to fall back on. Truthfully, I myself have never remotely been that kind of a person, and I'm sure that 99% of DU never have either - it's not that the average republican is always uncompassionate, it's just that Liberals have more imagination, which means more empathy to others. But to call those soldiers evil still seems wrong to me, and after being forced to really really think through why, I think I know.

1) The only thing that makes it bearable in any way is to think that at some stage people like that realize what they have done and repent. Not those that did the rapes or the murder - those seem too far from me to imagine redemption for them, but at least for the bullies.
2) If you think of acts like that as unimaginable, as acts of evil people, in other words, of people not like you in any way, then you don't expect them, don't take precautions, you don't prevent them.
3) It leads to flawed thinking like - Only evil people act like this. I'm not evil. People like me aren't evil. Americans aren't evil. Therefore, it's not happening, or if it is happening, it's an aberration, and such, not really our fault.

Anyway, thanks.

[dsc]

82. No problem

It was awfully hard to deal with at the time. THey had presumed me to be gay (turns out they were right) and at the time I had no real idea if I was or not. Clearly I was on the other side of the personhood equation. In fairness they were all kids and honestly are way less responsible that similarly positioned adults would be. But your central point is very accurate. These weren't in the grand scheme of things unusually evil kids. They were run of the mill kids who decided I didn't matter.

I can honestly understand not liking people who are different. I can honestly understand why someone would think gays are immoral. Though I disagree with both notions. But I will never understand, even if I live to be a hundred, why people who call themselves moral would feel they can do such a thing just because I am different than they are.

[leftistagitator]

69. This reaction is just like blaming Vietnam Vets for the atrocities

I agree with you fully, this war is making good men commit horrible acts, and the people responsible are the architects of the war, not the soldiers. Some people here act so morally Superior, they know for a fact they would never have done something like this. But the truth is that they don't know, they've never been shot at, they've never watched their friends die, they've never experienced being attacked by the people who they were risking their lives to "save". I don't know what I would have done in their place, but I know enough to say it's easy for those of us living in peace to attack those living in fear for their behavior.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. B.S.

Though I agree that the masterminds should be held responsible, forgiving and justifying these sadists is nonsense.

If you want to blame someone, blame the culture that discounts anyone not American as less than human, and the military training that dehumanizes the recruits into thinking that they are only "enemies", "collateral damage", or merely "targets".

Being a soldier, even a soldier in danger (which these monsters weren't) doesn't relieve one of personal responsibility.

USMC - '61-'65

[leftistagitator]

77. After reading some of the above posts, you may be right

I hadn't realized the extent of the sexual-sadism involved here. I just thought they were beating people or threatening with them electo-shock to get intelligence, which is bad enough but at least understandable. But some of what I read above seems to have been strictly done to satisfy a perverse sense of pleasure by some very sick people. Even with the dehumanizing aspects of war, raping prisoners, sodomizing them with broomsticks/chemical lights, forced mutual masterbation, the people who did this weren't acting out of any legitimate need for intel, they are just fucked up people. They should be in the prison cell next to *.

[gpandas]

70. military training promotes dehumanization of the enemy ...

to make it easier to kill them.

[salin]

76. One... I wouldn't minimize the actions... nor the consequences of those

actions (a - more hatred against the troops stationed in Iraq... and a level of anger that will spur more passive resistors into action; b - setting up the future actions that will be used against US troops who are captured by others in the future - based on the actions of the US completely trashing the Geneva Conventions.)

Two - I do believe that as a country we minimize the psycho-social costs of going to war on those who are sent. The damage is more than just physical. Pertaining to this particular set of atrocious incidents is a chilling experiment done at Stanford University in the 1970s... read about the reaction of the participants (particularly the guards) and think about how this was a simulated activity - none of the real stressors that are present in the current situation were in play. http://www.prisonexp.org/

One can understand that the conditions were created that might have pushed participants in the atrocities over the edge and into actions that they, as individuals, might not have ever engaged in under different circumstances... without minimizing the seriousness of what happened - and the consequences of the atrocities.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. that's BS! ........believe me they are from the darkside

[John_H]

80. You mean they're not just evil. They're also idiots and probably

Bush voters.