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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:27 AM
Original message
The New Yorker: "TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB"
This is the most balanced and complete article I've yet seen on this story. Seymour Hirsch covers the story with an emphasis and focus far better than the rest of the corporatist media, imho.
TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?
Issue of 2004-05-10
Posted 2004-04-30


<snip>
Last June, Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. General Karpinski, the only female commander in the war zone, was an experienced operations and intelligence officer who had served with the Special Forces and in the 1991 Gulf War, but she had never run a prison system. Now she was in charge of three large jails, eight battalions, and thirty-four hundred Army reservists, most of whom, like her, had no training in handling prisoners.

General Karpinski, who had wanted to be a soldier since she was five, is a business consultant in civilian life, and was enthusiastic about her new job. In an interview last December with the St. Petersburg Times, she said that, for many of the Iraqi inmates at Abu Ghraib, “living conditions now are better in prison than at home. At one point we were concerned that they wouldn’t want to leave.”

A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:
Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

<snip>
The 372nd’s abuse of prisoners seemed almost routine—a fact of Army life that the soldiers felt no need to hide. On April 9th, at an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury) in the case against Sergeant Frederick, at Camp Victory, near Baghdad, one of the witnesses, Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P., told the courtroom what happened when he and other soldiers delivered seven prisoners, hooded and bound, to the so-called “hard site” at Abu Ghraib—seven tiers of cells where the inmates who were considered the most dangerous were housed. The men had been accused of starting a riot in another section of the prison. Wisdom said:
SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, “Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.” I heard PFC England shout out, “He’s getting hard.”

<snip>
The abuses became public because of the outrage of Specialist Joseph M. Darby, an M.P. whose role emerged during the Article 32 hearing against Chip Frederick. A government witness, Special Agent Scott Bobeck, who is a member of the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division, or C.I.D., told the court, according to an abridged transcript made available to me, “The investigation started after SPC Darby . . . got a CD from CPL Graner. . . . He came across pictures of naked detainees.” Bobeck said that Darby had “initially put an anonymous letter under our door, then he later came forward and gave a sworn statement. He felt very bad about it and thought it was very wrong.”
<snip>
The problems inside the Army prison system in Iraq were not hidden from senior commanders. During Karpinski’s seven-month tour of duty, Taguba noted, there were at least a dozen officially reported incidents involving escapes, attempted escapes, and other serious security issues that were investigated by officers of the 800th M.P. Brigade. Some of the incidents had led to the killing or wounding of inmates and M.P.s, and resulted in a series of “lessons learned” inquiries within the brigade. Karpinski invariably approved the reports and signed orders calling for changes in day-to-day procedures. But Taguba found that she did not follow up, doing nothing to insure that the orders were carried out. Had she done so, he added, “cases of abuse may have been prevented.”
<snip>

A number of facts deserve emphasis:
  • This was going on for quite some time, and was known back in December/January - the investigative report was completed in late February, but it has taken two months for the public to be informed
  • Specialist Joseph M. Darby is a "hero" - but nobody in the command structure is.
  • The role of civilian "intelligence" personnel (CID and paramilitary contractors for the CIA), working with the authority of the military command structure, is overwhelming. These are Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz's Gestapo. The Busholini madministration has immunized them from any "controlling legal authority"; just try convincing me they didn't know and sponsor these obscene abuses!

This article also includes copies of photographs that're far more un-obscured than the broadcast images from CBS.

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. If Bush is really sorry about this he, should try and HANG the
war criminals who did this! The more I think about this the more I HATE the people who brought this on with their lies! To think that MY tax dollars made this possible is what REALLY pisses me off! Bush's watch, Bush's responsibility! Tony Blair and Bush are no better than the people who carry out their orders!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm sure he'll deal with them
Edited on Sat May-01-04 08:44 AM by DoYouEverWonder
just like he did with the people who outed a CIA agent in his misadministration.



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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. When it comes to Abu Ghraib, it's certain they
MIHOP

The hoi polloi troops will be the fall-guys for the abuses of the Busholini regime, a regime operating with the forbearance of We the People.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. GODDAMNIT THIS AGGRESSION SHOULD NOT STAND!
I hope they ALL roast in Hell!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. I have wanted to take to the streets since December 2000
... but not alone. (At 60, I doubt I'd be an effective "Army of One.") Sadly, in a nation that couldn't even muster up the public character and integrity to implement a General Strike, the liklihood of taking back control of our nation is slim indeed. I'm not optimistic.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. It's coming!
This is too much! I hope Fucking Jerry and Pat are proud!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. But you did take to the streets!
I even have several photos of you with a very determined looking bunch of DUers marching in San Francisco

:hi:

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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. CACI International... civilian contractor held partially responsible
"...General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military-intelligence officers and private contractors. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen “who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by ‘setting conditions’ which were neither authorized” nor in accordance with Army regulations. “He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse,” Taguba wrote. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. (A spokeswoman for CACI said that the company had “received no formal communication” from the Army about the matter.)

“I suspect,” Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel “were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib,” and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action...."

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact


Profile
CACI International Inc provides the IT and network solutions needed to prevail in today's new era of defense, intelligence and e-government. From systems integration and managed network solutions to knowledge management, engineering, simulation and information assurance, we deliver the IT applications and infrastructures our federal customers use to improve communications and collaboration, secure the integrity of information systems and networks, enhance data collection and analysis and increase efficiency and mission effectiveness. Our solutions lead the transformation of defense and intelligence, assure homeland security, enhance decision-making and help government to work smarter, faster and more responsively.

CACI, a member of the Russell 2000 and S&P SmallCap 600 indices, provides dynamic careers for approximately 7600 employees working in more than 100 offices in the U.S. and Europe. CACI is the IT provider for a networked world.



Quick Facts
Specialists in systems integration, managed network solutions and information assurance
Founded in 1962, pioneering in simulation software
Publicly owned since 1968
$843.1M FY 2003 revenues
Approximately 7600 employees worldwide
More than 100 offices throughout North America and Western Europe
SEI CMM Level 3 rating
Headquartered in Arlington Virginia - Directions


CACI's Mission Statement
CACI’s mission is to be the world leader in information technology and networld solutions.

We deliver in-demand products and services — providing innovative solutions for

Homeland Security
Systems integration
Network services
Information assurance
Intelligence services
Knowledge management
Modeling and simulation
Engineering and logistics
Our strength is developing superior IT solutions that evolve over time to ensure exceptional performance and outstanding client success.

Through growth we provide opportunity for our people, create solutions for our clients and make good profits for our shareholders.


Principal Products and Services
Homeland Security
Systems Integration
Managed Network Services
Information Assurance
Engineering and Logistics
Intelligence Services
Knowledge Management
CACI Creative Group

http://www.caci.com/about/profile.shtml
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. The more I read this the more disgusted I get.
How bankrupt can this system get?

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. Make you wonder what is REALLY going on at Guantanamo Bay...
Amazing what grows in the dark...
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Yeah, me too
It had better be by-the-book clean or locked down so tight there's no chance of incriminating evidence leaking out -- the guy that replaced Karpinski is the former commander at Gitmo. If his operation turns out to be dirty too, they'll never be able to climb out of the cesspool they've dug for themselves.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. Dems have to make this very clear - Bush CAN'T immunize the civillians..
The Geneva Conventions state that anyone who has a reposnibility to act to prevent or punish breaches of the Geneva Convention (ie the commanding officers) but doesn't is themselves breaching the Geneva Convention.

This carries on all the way up the chain, meaning that if Bush knows that a civillian committed a war crime, by refusing to prosecute that civillian, he is also commiting a war crime.

This is one of the reasons the US is prosecuting Milosevic. It claims that Milosevic failed to enforce the Geneva Convention, although this appears to be untrue as there were hundreds of documented cases of Serbs being prosecuted for crimes carried out in Kosovo.

Americans must INSIST that Bush prosecute all involved in war crimes, and that if he fails to do so, that he face charges for that refusal.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. SPEECHLESS
Edited on Sat May-01-04 09:01 AM by Tinoire
after reading only your extracts.

Stunned, speechless and totally ashamed.

“living conditions now are better in prison than at home. At one point we were concerned that they wouldn’t want to leave.”

The entire chain of command should fry.

SPC Darby, thank you for standing up and saying NO.

THEY PUT THESE PHOTOS ON A CD? They were THAT proud? THAT sick?

Meanwhile only 6 have been thrown to the wolves. Where are the others? Everyone involved in this must be exposed and SHAMED in front of the world for what they were so proud of doing in secret.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think it's CRITICAL to realize ...
Edited on Sat May-01-04 09:03 AM by TahitiNut
... that this kind of obscene abuse is more than sufficient to convince many/most Iraqis/Arabs to never surrender. The spectre of such treatment has been extraordinarily effective for millenia in inciting people to fight to the death.

This is being done deliberately by the Busholini regime. Endless and unwinnable war.

This is a "tipover" point.

While I may have been persuaded that some kind of continued effort by the US in Iraq was warranted under a Kerry Presidency, I am no longer at all open to any continued US involvement in Iraq. There is absolutely no other alternative at this point to complete withdrawal of our military from Iraq.

I don't think the recent and ongoing withdrawal of "coalition" forces is at all coincidental. I'm confident other members of the "coalition" were aware of these atrocities and saw the handwriting on the wall.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Meanwhile CACI's stock


The news is just now making it to their investor message board. Down 0.72 Friday. May it plummet to 0.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. And they're a publicly-held company.
What about the privately-held companies (like Carlyle) operating in Iraq and Afghanistan? (And Guantanimo?) CACI and Triton are probably the best of the bad. It's the same as the corporations that profited from the abuses of the Nazi's .. not only using slave labor, but benefitting from the fear such abuses put into the "regular" labor forces to drive down labor compensation.

This is what "privatization" brings us. This is the gross obscenity of such Republican attitudes.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. You know how I feel about all of them
Edited on Sat May-01-04 09:35 AM by Tinoire
Making money off of other people's misery is just flat out wrong. This is why there is no joy in my heart when people start heaping roses on the likes of Soros.

We truly are the new Nazis.... I am thankful you are here with your knowledge, insight and reasoning skills.

The industrialists, the business community in Germany, was directly behind Hitler and financed his atrocities. These are the same people we are battling today. When will we ever learn?

A small quibble, the name of the other company is Titan. Stock symbol TTN. They'll be going down too. Someone has already posted something on their Yahoo message board.

http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=l&board=4687076&tid=ttn&sid=4687076&mid=101328

I hope that over the week-end, more Titan and CACI investors will learn how much blood is behind their profits. Let's hope they care because the business community (in the US, UK and in Germany) didn't care when Hitler was making them money.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. The memory hole is at work on that board
Edited on Sat May-01-04 09:51 AM by drfemoe
The original message questioning the implications of the torture story on their stock has been removed .. msg 101317 .. There are now three replies, indicating they are not worried about their stock prices .. will be of no effect.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. CACI's board's most recent 3 posts are about the scandal
The most recent one is an excerpt of the Hersch article with a recommendation for a "strong sell" The person who posted this is an actuary.

I wonder how reading it will make the investors feel?
http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1602926053&tid=cai&sid=1602926053&mid=616

Re: CACI - Iraq Torture? HUGE scandal

Long-Term Sentiment: Strong Sell 05/01/04 10:14 am

Msg: 616 of 617

TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?
Issue of 2004-05-10
Posted 2004-04-30

A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

<snip>


Myers, who was one of the military defense attorneys in the My Lai prosecutions of the nineteen-seventies, told me that his client’s defense will be that he was carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the directions of military intelligence. He said, “Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to do this on their own? Decided that the best way to embarrass Arabs and make them talk was to have them walk around nude?”


<snip>

General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military-intelligence officers and private contractors. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen “who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by ‘setting conditions’ which were neither authorized” nor in accordance with Army regulations. “He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse,” Taguba wrote. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. (A spokeswoman for CACI said that the company had “received no formal communication” from the Army about the matter.)

“I suspect,” Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel “were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib,” and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action.

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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. All this BS
Edited on Sat May-01-04 10:25 PM by drfemoe
about *national security* and *redacted* and NOW we find out that publicly traded corporations are in charge of interrogations and intelligence gathering!!

If that doesn't get some Americans steamed, will ANYTHING?
I have a short temper these days. I'm furious!!

edit to add: Not that privately held corps would be acceptable either... AND I doubt these prisoners even have/had access to anything of value to intel. I think the pentagon/wh just hired a company of thugs to torture!! Nothing more. Any way you slice it, it is FUBAR!!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I'm reminded of Jason and the Sirens ...
... when I think of public investment in corrupt, predatory cabals like CACI and Titan. Where's Orpheus when we need him?

In seducing the public to invest in such companies, public complicity in their abuses and obscenities is attained. One of the grosser evils of corporatism (limited liability, you see) is that "investors" are not liable for the criminality of the corporation beyond the amount of their "investment." This is, imho, morally unconscionable.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Small step toward justice.
Nothing would please me more than if those who would invest in such a company will lose money. Maybe they'll think twice before investing in misery.
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Anyone with mutual funds would be well advised to check
Edited on Sat May-01-04 06:41 PM by berry
to see what is in each fund's portfolio. Most people just invest in a fund and have no idea--and no real input into the various companies (no proxies are sent to them--the fund managers do the voting. At least I think this is how it works.) I only have one mutual fund, but I'm going to call about it on Monday. I've been meaning to do this for quite a while--feeling uneasy about possibly owning even a sliver of the big defense contractors. And now this.

Tahiti Nut is right. With all the little investors, and GOP dreams of making the success of the stock market in the perceived "vested interest" of every American, they must figure that everyone will approve of the sell-out of our country.

I do wonder if there isn't some way to legally pursue the private contractors. The "enemy combatants" who fill Guantanamo and the prisons of Iraq and Afganistan can't be any more anomolous than these guys. I also wonder where the CIA and other intelligence agencies were in all this. I had thought they (and military intel, of course) were the ones doing the interrogations. Remember the CIA employee who was killed in Afganistan early on in that war? (at the same time that the teenager from SF was arrested--I'm blanking out on names).

I would also like to hear what Alan Dershowitz NOW has to say about the need to allow interrogators to torture prisoners. He was saying (a year or two ago) that it was justified in case they had info that could save lives. There were others too, in the media, pushing this point. At the time, I couldn't understand why they were making this point (over and over). I was chilled by it. I now think they wanted to push public opinion ahead of revelations such as these. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm wondering just whose talking point this was. It wasn't only Dershowitz. I'm going to have to see if I can find reference to this. Sorry to be so vague. Does anyone else remember it?

I'm no less chilled by "targeted assassination" and other methods being argued for as the intelligence agencies are reorganized. I think we need another Church Commission and national dialog about what we do and don't authorize our government to do IN OUR NAME. As it stands today, we aren't even allowed to know--unless it leaks.

I think part of the horror is that we KNOW that behavior like this is not just an isolated incident. There have been countless segments on the news shows--of soldiers breaking into homes, humiliating and "bagging" prisoners. Psy-ops. We are all (rightly) afraid of what else we don't know. What a perfect lesson this is--demonize the "enemy" at the peril of your own soul. Damn, damn, damn....

On edit--I hadn't read the whole article when I wrote this. CLEARLY, the CIA and MI are at the center of this. And the fearmongers (in the WH, Congress, and the media) are shrieking that the intelligence community has its hands tied, that they need MORE latitude. Augh.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Dershowitz
Monday, March 3, 2003
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Following the capture of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the question has become whether the senior al Qaeda leader will reveal key information about the terrorist network. If he doesn't, should he be tortured to make him tell what he knows?

CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer posed this question to noted author and Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz and Ken Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch.
<snipped>
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz


Seems to have change his story since November 2001 >>
<snipped>
Nor will the suspect have any real opportunity to defend himself, since the ordinary rules of evidence will not be followed. The commission will be allowed to base its decision on any evidence that would "have probative value to a reasonable person." Translated from the legalese, this means that hearsay, coerced confessions, and fruits of illegal searches can be considered, and that cross-examinations will not always be allowed. It also means that the prosecution need not even disclose the sources of its hearsay if such disclosure would reveal a "state secret"—a broad term nowhere defined.
<snipped>
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/dershowitz.php

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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. How do we do this?
I think we need another Church Commission and national dialog about what we do and don't authorize our government to do IN OUR NAME. As it stands today, we aren't even allowed to know--unless it leaks.

I'm not familiar with that Commission, searching, but have found nothing so far. How can the American People make a dialog before it is too late?
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berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Sorry, it's the Church Committee, not Commission.
Start with this article from The American Prospect:

http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/19/mooney-c.html

It gives you a bit of the history, and a lot of info about how the hawks are trying to create a backlash against curbs placed on CIA abuses that followed recommendations of the Church Committee (Sorry--I called it a commission, so that's probably why you couldn't find it. I googled <Church Committee CIA abuse> and got over 400 links).

Frankly, I don't know how well these curbs were working, but after 9-11 there was an immediate campaign by the hawks to use the fear of terrorists to unleash the CIA (and other intelligence agencies) to use any dirty trick "necessary." The articles you cited show this as well.

As for the dialog--all I can think of is to keep asking for it. I think maybe events will force it...
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Would Lou Dobbs be interested?
OUTSOURCING QUESTIONING OF PRISONERS, from military and intelligence government employees to highly paid profitable mercenaries

despicable behavior in encouraging our soldiers to soften up prisoners before questioning.

OUTSOURCED MILITARY NEEDS TO BE MADE ACCOUNTABLE.

He's a giant against outsourcing. Would he touch this?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. We should send this to him.
Edited on Sat May-01-04 04:44 PM by Tinoire
He's been brave enough to touch this story and several journalists have been brave enough to talk of the corporations involved. Why not?

I'm going to see if there's anything new about CACI and Titan today...

So far... CACI in the news today... LA TIMES

====

<snip>

Military and industry sources said CACI was involved in the interrogation of some Iraqis being held at the prison.

A lawyer for one of the accused soldiers — and some members of their families — said CACI employees had encouraged military police to abuse prisoners to "soften them up" for questioning. That allegation has not been confirmed by Army officials.

"The company has received no indication from the Army that any CACI employee was involved in any alleged improper conduct with Iraqi prisoners," said a statement from CACI, which has about 7,600 employees worldwide.

"CACI has received no indication of pending actions against any employee related to this matter," it said.

<snip>

At Abu Ghraib, CACI conducted interrogations and a second U.S. company, San Diego-based Titan Corp., provided interpreters, industry and military sources said.

<snip>

Most contracted interrogators who work for CACI are former military interrogators or police officers, said one Army interrogator, who asked not to be named. "They were working for the Army … and they were more mature than a lot of the Army interrogators."

<snip>

http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-fg-abuse1may01,1,5230553.story?coll=la-headlines-business-careers
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. "... none dare call it treason."
I think it's important to recall the complete epigram ...

"Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
"
- Sir John Harington (1561-1612)



It's not treason that will cause the stock to fall (since none will call it thusly while the stock has value), but the fall of the stock that would motivate calls of treason. Thus, immoral behavior cannot cause the stock to fail - only unprofitable behavior. In this instance, the two are mutually exclusive. This is the Catch-22 of public "investment": public corruption.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. Thanks for reminding me of the complete epigram
What a sad state of affairs.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. How would we react to photos like these....
...had this country been invaded and the gleeful torturers were our occupiers? Same way, I believe.

I also see no alternative but to withdraw from Iraq.

"All the king's horses and all the king's men, couldn't put Humpty together again."
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. At least 35% of Americans would be yelling "Nuke 'em!"
Assuming we ever did, we no longer seem to have a national sense of fairness.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "National sense of fairness" -- a great concept, once existed, I think.
Or maybe it only seemed to exist, because I was a lot younger and less cynical then.

There is an excellent book by David Callahan called "The Cheating Culture. It discusses the pervasiveness of cheating in this country, virtually from the cradle to the grave. Fairness definitely is ancient history in today's American society.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0151010188/qid=1083435525/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6965749-0044114?v=glance&s=books
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
22. Must read kick nt
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. Disgust that makes my blood boil....
and my heart pound.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
27. Compare this to AWOL soldiers...
that spend time in military prisons for not showing up to commit these kinds of atrocities.

How much time will the rapists spend in prison? Perhaps they should pray that the correctional officers in those prisons are better human beings than they.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. I thought this story should have its own thread on LBN
It's so important.

Remember who bush is sending as ambassator

All this right up Bush's Terrorist John Negroponte's alley


The perfect choice I guess


Bush's Terrorist: John Negroponte Sent to Iraq

Iraqi ambassador pick grilled on hand-over

By Steven Weisman
The New York Times

WASHINGTON -- President Bush's nominee for ambassador to Iraq on Tuesday defended the limits that would be placed on Iraqi self-rule, particularly those on control over security forces, asserting that after June 30 Iraqis will have "a lot more sovereignty than they have right now."
Facing skeptical questions about the new constraints emerging in the long-planned transfer of power before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the nominee, John Negroponte, said he saw his major challenge as trying to avert conflicts if the new Iraqi government objected to U.S. military actions. "These are the kinds of questions that I think our diplomacy is going to have to deal with," said Negroponte, who is now ambassador to the United Nations.
The toughest questions came from Democrats, but all the senators said they would support Negroponte's confirmation, which the committee could approve on Thursday. Senate aides said Negroponte could be confirmed by the full Senate as early as next week.
Negroponte said that any decisions on whether to attack rebel strongholds, as the United States is threatening now in Fallujah and Najaf, would require "great political sensitivity" even though American s will nominally be in charge of such decisions.

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Apr/04282004/nation_w/161439.asp





Bush's Terrorist: John Negroponte Sent to Iraq


Dems Ignore Negroponte's Death Squad Past, Look to Confirm Iraq Appointmen


As Negroponte, responded to Hagel, he was interrupted by an activist, Andres Conteris of Non-violence International.

Andres Conteris, is program director for Latin America and the Caribbean for the human rights group Non-violence International. He disrupted yesterday's Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on John Negroponte's appointment as US ambassador to Iraq.

As ambassador to Honduras, Negroponte played a key role in coordinating US covert aid to the Contra death squads in Nicaragua and shoring up a CIA-backed death squad in Honduras. During his term as ambassador there, diplomats alleged that the embassy's annual human rights reports made Honduras sound more like Norway than Argentina. In a 1995 series, the Baltimore Sun detailed the activities of a secret CIA-trained Honduran army unit, Battalion 3-16, that used "shock and suffocation devices in interrogations. Prisoners often were kept naked and, when no longer useful, killed and buried in unmarked graves." In 1994, Honduras's National Commission for the Protection of Human Rights reported that it was officially admitted that 179 civilians were still missing.

A former official who served under Negroponte says he was ordered to remove all mention of torture and executions from the draft of his 1982 report on the human rights situation in Honduras. During Negroponte's tenure, US military aid to Honduras skyrocketed from $3.9 million to over $77 million. Much of this went to ensure the Honduran army's loyalty in the battle against popular movements throughout Central America.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/040428.html

Bush's Terrorist: John Negroponte Sent to Iraq




Negroponte's "embassy" in Baghdad will, according to press reports, constitute the largest US "embassy staff" in the world with some 3000 employees, including up to 1,000 Americans.


Yet according to a four-part series in the Baltimore Sun in 1995, in 1982 alone the Honduran press ran 318 stories of murders and kidnappings by the Honduran military.

Opponents of Negroponte are demanding that all Senators read the full report before voting on his nomination.http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ROF111A.html
In a cruel irony, the Bush administration has appointed a bona fide "terrorist" to wage its "war on terrorism" in Iraq.


It should come as no surprise that "on the day he was appointed to Iraq, Honduras decided to bring its troops in Iraq home." (Financial Times, April 21, 2004)

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=1189



Face-off: Bush's Foreign Policy Warriors


On August 27, 1997, CIA Inspector General Frederick P. Hitz released a 211-page classified report entitled "Selected Issues Relating to CIA Activities in Honduras in the 1980's." This report was partly declassified on Oct. 22, 1998, in response to demands by the Honduran human rights ombudsman. Opponents of Negroponte are demanding that all Senators read the full report before voting on his nomination.

Reich, unlike Negroponte, is primarily a lobbyist and anti-Castro activist rather than a diplomat. He is director of the Washington-based Center for a Free Cuba and works for some of America's favorite industries: liquor (Bacardi), tobacco (British-American Tobacco), and weapons (Lockheed Martin). He also serves as vice-chairman of the Worldwide Responsible Apparel Program, or WRAP, an apparel industry-backed group characterized by union activists as an artifice for clothing importers to avoid serious scrutiny of their factories in developing countries.

In the 1980s, he headed a propaganda department in the State Department called the Office of Public Diplomacy. This unit, staffed with CIA and Pentagon psychological warfare specialists, reported to Oliver North. The function of the operation was to win support for administration policy in Central America. They wrote op-eds under the name of Nicaraguan rebel leaders and attacked those who differed with Reagan's policies. The Congressional investigation of the Iran-contra scandal identified numerous illegalities which led to the closure of the Office of Public Diplomacy.

Reich followed up these activities by serving as ambassador to Venezuela from 1986-89, at the height of the Iran-contra scandal. The Venezuelan government tried unsuccessfully to block his nomination.

While working for Bacardi, he successfully lobbied to slip Section 211 into the 1998 Omnibus Appropriations Bill, thus stripping Cuba of trademark protection. Ironically, he will be overseeing the Helms-Burton Act, which he helped to draft, which the administration has just decided not to carry into effect.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ROF111A.html


NEGROPONTE - Sleeping Ambassador or Death Squad Diplomat?

The widespread use of American aerial surveillance to direct the Contra murderers to villages where only women and children were present to be killed, the routine use of torture, the encouragement of drug-smuggling into the U.S. to provide funding for the U.S.-backed forces all were revealed only after Negroponte had left his post as U.S. Ambassador to the Honduras. And who could forget the Honduran Anti-communist Liberation Army's ever popular practice of dropping victims from helicopters while they were in flight?

Make no mistake about it -- both Iraqi rebels and Al Qaeda terrorists see Negroponte's appointment as the first stage in implementing a policy of covert violence against their right to sovereignty and will effectively use it to recruit and incite radicals to commit more acts of violence against us. It's no coincidence that our Office of Homeland Security issued a heightened security alert just as Bush announced his plans for Negroponte.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/04/con04178.html

US Martyrs Pose Questions for Negroponte
October 28, 2003
By TONI SOLO

US nuns murdered in El Salvador 4

In 1981, a couple of decades before Rachel Corrie was murdered, the bodies of four women were found in a shallow grave in a rural district not far from San Salvador, El Salvador's capital. They had been raped and shot dead by members of the Salvadoran army on the orders of senior officers. In the context of the time, the atrocity would hardly have merited reporting. But the women were United States citizens. Two were religious sisters of the New York based Maryknoll order, Ita Ford and Maureen Clarke. One was an Ursuline Sister, Dorothy Kazel, the fourth a lay missioner, Jean Donovan. By virtue of their nationality, the story did make the news, just--the back page of the New York Times, to that paper's eternal shame.

Those four women had helped defend Salvadorans from the terror unleashed against their own people by the Salvadoran government with support from the United States administrations of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. They gave their lives working alongside vulnerable people and communities in El Salvador. The murders followed the assassination in 1980 of Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero. The women's deaths were manipulated by the US government and its ever-pliant news media. The full facts took years to emerge. US ambassador to the UN, Jean Kirkpatrick, falsely accused the women of having supported the Salvadoran armed opposition, the FMLN. In fact, the four women were passionate advocates of non-violence, accompanying the rural villagers they served while caught up in a violent civil war.

Ambassador Kirkpatrick's statements on the case of the four women were to be expected from an unrepentant supporter of the bloodthirsty Argentinian military dictatorship. Her successor at the UN was Vernon Walters, former deputy director of the CIA, co-organiser of the continent wide terrorist blueprint Plan Condor and promoter of Ronald Reagan's terrorist war against Nicaragua. In 1986 Vernon Walters threw in the face of the UN his government's rejection of the International Court of Justice verdict convicting the US of terrorism against Nicaragua.

Kirkpatrick's and Walters' apologetics for mass murder helped John Negroponte, then US ambassador to Honduras, cover up his support for the systematic forced disappearances used to destroy Honduran civilian opposition to the presence of Contra bases in their country. Thomas Pickering, US ambassador to El Salvador at the time, also gave misleading information on local army and paramilitary murders, probably an essential qualification for his subsequent posting in 1989 as US ambassador to the UN, taking over from Vernon Walters.

Jean Kirkpatrick, Vernon Walters, Thomas Pickering, John Negroponte and other US government representatives sent clear signals that the local military in El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala were to be allowed a free hand by the United States government to murder tens of thousands of civilians and anyone who spoke out against the slaughter. Perhaps the defining climax to the sickening murder campaign came in 1989 when the Salvadoran army killed six Jesuit academics and two of their domestic staff at the University of Central America in San Salvador. These crimes were made possible because the United States government consistently tried to conceal its institutional role in funding, training and supporting the military and paramilitary perpetrators. The Iran-Contra scandal was the culmination of that sustained program of regional deceit.


http://www.counterpunch.org/solo10282003.html


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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. This should be read by everyone here.
eom
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yes, it's the most thorough and revealing article I've read.
Edited on Sat May-01-04 03:11 PM by TahitiNut
I don't tend to start new threads, especially on a story that already has many threads, but this particular aritcle contained so much new information and more focused reporting of existing information I thought it really deserved maximum attention. If a person read no other article, this one would be the one to read. Hersh hit a home run.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. OMG.... These Sadistic freaks Have REPRODUCED!
<A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.>

This would be private lynndie and her fiance who are soon to be new parents.... :puke:

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Hersch video on Today Show this morning. Article discussed on C-SPAN.
I am stunned the article is getting this kind of play. Hope it keeps up. The point is that this abuse is SYSTEMIC.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. "What did you do in the war, Mommy?"
Edited on Sun May-02-04 08:53 AM by TahitiNut
Imagine the "legacy"? Unfreakingbelievable.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
41. Troops=faces of American compassion abroad" - Pickles

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4044000,00.html
By MIKE SCHNEIDER

Associated Press Writer

WINTER HAVEN, Fla. (AP) - First lady Laura Bush thanked servicemembers
returning from Iraq and Afghanistan for their dedication, telling
nearly 150 soldiers recently returned from fighting that they have the
nation's support.

Speaking at a rally before about 5,000 central Florida residents, Bush
said the troops are the face of American compassion abroad.
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