Lynndie R. England WAR CRIMINAL

[Mobius]

Her name is Lynndie R. England. 21 years old.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. And to think these fucking assholes had the hubris to send these pics

to a porn site to show off.
I mean imagine if they HADN'T have sent them...would we even know about them?

[Old and In the Way]

3. Not the sharpest tools in the shed, either.....

I didn't realize her fiance was taking the pics...

[Mobius]

61. now that would be a great email box to flood.

Does anyone know which one of them actually sent it?

[burythehatchet]

82. precisely

What we have NOT seen is what saddens me

[DarkPhenyx]

2. Is this the part where I mention that she's female...

...and not one of the "making the world better becasue I'm female and in charge" ones? Just curious.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. You could if the military that brainwashed her was also female

She's a dumbassed 21 year old with no opportunities in life..just lie Eichmann who had nothing against the Jews but feared he's never amount to anything so he joined up with the SS

[DarkPhenyx]

10. It has nothing to do with the military not being female.

It has everything to do with men and women both being equally capable of evil.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. I don't believe the two thoughts are mutually exclusive

Yes men and women are both capable of great evil and I would never argue to the contrary. The military, however, is dominated by male machismo and this woman is imitating that machismo in that pose where she is simulating shooting a man in the dick...btw...you brought the gender issues into this...per capita any idea how many sex crimes are committed by male military versus women military? This woman is playing a man's game in this pic.

[DarkPhenyx]

24. Or she is simply reacting...

...as is her nature. Women are not innocent, they are as capable of eveil, even in groups of just women. She wasn't forced into anything, she went willingly into the abyss.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Assumes facts not in evidence

You don't know whether this was her idea or she was ordered to do it (not that that excuses it) C'mon...I expect better from you.

[DarkPhenyx]

35. Nor do you.

However...the fact we do know is that she did it. There is a fair chance, judging from her expression, that she isn't at all upset about it either.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. If one judges simply by expression sure..again it assumes facts not in

evidence. Stop speculating and I'll stop taking you to task for it.

[DarkPhenyx]

42. My only statement was that...

...we have a female involved in an act that many on the feminist side of the discussion would say would be impossible for women because they are lovers and nuturers. Only men would do this. I have pointed out before that such a statement is nothing but crap.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. well fucking fuck..those women aren't here..and I didn't make that

statement....it's time for another cookie....:D

[DarkPhenyx]

47. yeah, probably.

*soft sigh*

[Demonaut]

76. cmon, the picture says it all, I doubt very much she was forced to pose

[dmkinsey]

78. I'm just more disappointed

This issue is so disgusting. Our military puts people in positions of power without training them on the Geneva Convention. Our military consistently refuses to acknowledge that the Iraqis are actually POW's and entitled to humane treatment. Our military uses civilian mercenaries to interrogate prisoners because civilians are "not bound by military regulation".
I'm not surprised that men could do this to other people. I know that Eileen Warnos killed many, and that women are not inherently "better" than men. It's just so disappointing to see the grin on this young womans face.
I hope she gets to sit in the brig along with her peers,her superiors and the civilians who participated in this outrage. That would,of course,include Mr Rumsfeld.
dmkinsey

[DarkPhenyx]

84. Is it more disappointing than a grin...

...on the mans face? It shouldn't be.

[Snoggera]

11. Excellent bare-bones analysis n/t

[DarkPhenyx]

19. Bull crap.

It's a biased and blind analysis.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Nope..you brought an agenda to this one..not me

[DarkPhenyx]

28. Yes, I did.

Your point?

My having an agenda in my comment does not negate the mypoic POV expressed by others.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. My point is simple. You brought an agenda about gender into this thread

that you cannot prove. You don't know whether in fact she generated her actions or was "going along to get along."

[DarkPhenyx]

37. Nor can you proove...

...that she is. However if you wish to state for the record that it is absolutely impossible that she did this of her own free will and had no compunctions at all about it.....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. Nope..I'm not the one making an assertion. Are you going to assert

that the military is NOT a male dominated society?

[DarkPhenyx]

44. Not at all.

You did make an assertion, however, that she did this becasue she was among men. Something you have no more proof for than I do about her doing it of her own free will, which was not, if you go back and look, a part of my original post.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. No..I made an assertion that she was participating in a male dominated

society which the military is and as such her actions reflect that male dominated society...hell..the very acts that the prisoners are engaged in are not typically acts generated by women...and the majority of personnel in the room with her were men.

[DarkPhenyx]

55. Which by default would mean...

...she did this solely becasue she was in that society and that she, as a female, would not normally be capable of it. To which I reply "Bull!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. to which I say assumes fucking facts not in evidence

[DarkPhenyx]

63. As does your statement.

[Snoggera]

26. I took the subject question as hypothesis

but the message seemed without question to me.

I comprehend what you are saying, but I don't see it as being blind.

[DarkPhenyx]

32. The female in the picture...

...only did it because she was among men? Sorry. Fail to see any logic in that comment.

[Tina H]

34. I think her general was female --

so it looks like there was distaff participation in the brainwashing. I don't know whether Ms. England's training officers here in the US were also feamle, but this seems like a distinct possibility.

There were 7 torturers and one was female (although I thought I saw a different US female in one of the pyramid pictures). Unless the US army is more than one seventh (14%) female, then this looks like a textbook case of proportional representation.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Hi..one flaw with that. We don't know the degree to which the Brigadeer

General was involved..her crime MAY be dereliction.

[TeeYiYi]

65. She's facing court martial. ...n/t

TYY

[Tina H]

66. Correct

Neither of us knows for sure whether the bulk of her brainwashing came from males or females. We may never know.

In the meantime, I am not willing to assume one way or the other about the gender dynamics at the prison.

However, generals are responsibility for the prisons they run. I think you may be letting the general off the hook too easily just because she is female. Would you be so understanding if a male general had been in General K.'s position? If the general were male, my guess is that you would serve us up some of the choice swear words your posts seem to use when discussing serious issues.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. A couple points

1) The only assumptions I made about gender dynamics at the prison is that the majority of military in the pics were men.

2) I DID make a reasonable assumption about the gender dynamics in the military and stand by them.

3) I wasn't letting her off the hook, I said I was awaiting info as to her actual knowledge of those events and would await that same info with a male CO.

5 sometimes I swear in my posts and most times I don't...the rest of your sentence is pretty conclusionary...try not to jump to conclusions about me and I will afford you the same.

[Tina H]

70. So Ms. England's brainwashing . . .

might (or might not) have come from females. The evidence at this point is incomplete and mixed on this particular issue. If you can agree with this, then I don't think we have any real dispute.

I find the swear words counterproductive, but I don't really know the rules of this board so I will give you the benefit ofthe doubt and assume that the language is acceptable here regardless of my sensitive, tender feelings.

[TeeYiYi]

64. Actually . . .

. . . the Brigadier General over the prison is a woman. And she's facing court martial.

TYY

[TahitiNut]

74. Actually, she was an honor student. (Highly compliant.)

She reportedly joined the National Guard to gain the wherewithal to attend college. There's no telling why she chose the Military Police.

[Tina H]

77. what do you mean "highly compliant"

are you saying that honor students are highly compliant in general or Ms. England in particular was highly compliant?

If you are saying that honor students are more compliant, then a link would be good because this is an interesting fact that may have application beyond the prison torture.

On the other hand, if you are saying that Ms. England in particular was compliant, then a have a further question: are you trying to say that Ms. England must have been more "compliant" than the male participants because that is the only way to explain the anomaly of of a gal torturing a guy?

(I am not trying to trap you; I am just intrigued by the highly compliant thing.)

[TahitiNut]

80. At issue here is Conformity

Asch, Stanford, and Migram experiments indicate that conformity and authoritarianism are the "hooks" for indoctrination. "Honor students" demonstrate an ability to succeed within an established authoritarian context. They/we are conformists - meeting "standards" for behavior.

See http://www.irregulartimes.com/conformity.html


The lessons are clear. Fascism succeeds in authoritarian cultures where conformity and compliance are rewarded and independence and "rocking the boat" are punished. We're there. We're "good Germans."

[Tina H]

86. thank you for the response -- the link was worth reading

As I understand it, you are saying that Ms. England's honor student status made her more likely to be complaint / conforming.

I respectfully disagree. In my experiences with honor students and others, I haven't found honor students to be any more or less "good Germans" than just regular folks are. You say that honor students succeed better in authoritarian environments. Well, sure, but they tend to succeed better in non-authoritarian environments, also -- so it would not appear that an authoritarian society is key to keeping honor students in positions of success. I would go as far as to say that I have known quite a few honor students who were downright free thinkers.

As far as the linked studies:

(1) I didn't see them linking honor student status with compliance; and

(2) Here is what they did link to compliance:

"Conformity is not, thankfully, universal. Not everybody conforms, and even those who do conform don't do so all the time. What, then, leads to variation in conformity? When do people dissent?

Across these studies and others, the two most important factors determining the extent of conformity seem to be:
1) Closeness to individuals in authority
and
2) Distance from the object of intended behavior."

Just my 2 cents,

Tina

[fishnfla]

Well, the freeps are saying this is what you get when you allow

women and homosexuals in "Clinton's army" Would you agree with that?

[DarkPhenyx]

9. Nope! Not at all.

My opinon runs more along the line that women are just as capable of evil as men are. The world would be no better or worse off if they were in charge.

[drfemoe]

62. And men are just as capable of compassion

as women are. See any signs of nurturing in these photos? What do you think would have happened to her if she had exhibited the sterotypical female response? Medal of honor? Promotion in rank? uh huh ..

[DarkPhenyx]

67. had she done the "feminine" thing...

...she'd not be in jail at the moment. Same goes for any of the men involved. I say hang 'em all.

Just my opinion though.

[drfemoe]

71. we don't know that ...

maybe she would have been re-assigned to clear mines. Some reservists have lost thier lives *disarming* IEDs. Something for which they were never trained either.

[DarkPhenyx]

73. Speaking as a military person...

...I'm fairly certain that she would not be clearing mines, nor in jail. There are alternative results which are far more likely. But nobody ever thinks of them on this board.

[Mobius]

12. No, she was hardly the ring leader

from what I understand. So the men involved in these NUMEROUS incidents are presumed gay? I had not thought that. Rape is a crime of power, not sexual desire.

[Gold Metal Flake]

41. I would agree...

That that is exactly how a freeper would react. I also know that many freepers enjoy the photos, have them on their walls and such, laugh at the prisoners. Some I am sure are using them as masturbatory material.

Yes, I am prone to sarcasm. I have used none in this post.

[Tina H]

79. Is freeper onanism relevant here?

I don't like freepers, but I really think we ought to stay out of their bedrooms -- both literally and speculation-wise.

On 2d thought: are you saying that the soldiers performed the torture for the primary purpose of providing pornography to others as some kind of kinky service to perverts in the US and Britain? If you think that this is what really motivated the torture incidents -- I guess that is an interesting idea. I still tend to think that they did it for their own twisted pleasure, not the pleasure of sad, lonely men in Fresno.

[Iceburg]

4. And here is her charming fiance ... master Charles Graner (right)

Bonvoyage America

[Old and In the Way]

16. They'll have quite interesting stories to share with their kids.....

"This is what Mom and Dad were doing in Operation Iraqi Liberation."

[Iceburg]

59. Let us hope they NEVER have kids or pets for that matter

I know the American prisons are full ... but these these guys/gals deserve a cell for life.

[babzilla]

85. too late to hope for that, SHE IS PREGNANT

according to the new yorker article:

A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[Teddy_Salad]

5. 21, huh?

Geez, when I first saw these pictures I guessed she was in her 30's, maybe even older.

Well, I guess the pics are a little 'grainy'.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Melsky]

68. Cigarettes

smoking ages you faster.

[City Lights]

7. Disgusting.

:puke:

I'm ashamed.

[markomalley]

8. Since Lynndie committed crimes against the Iraqis...

...maybe she should be turned over to the Iraqi justice system for "adjudication."

[Union Thug]

13. Agreed..

She's a real tough little beeotch when the enemy is naked and unarmed. I guess this is why the unelected frat boy is keeping 'merka as far from the world court as possible.

[Mobius]

15. 2 wrongs dont make a right

Forcing her to live with what her crimes did to the world and how she and the others personally jeopardized the lives of 150,000 troops is a better punishment.

[markomalley]

17. How is this wrong???

She committed crimes against those Iraqi men. She is in Iraq. It would only be the appropriate thing to do. Or do you think those "little _____ savages" are incapable of providing a fair trial and proper justice according to a system of law?

[Mobius]

23. the inference was that she be tortured like she tortured others

Crimes commited while serving in the armed forces are tried in a different system than the criminal justice system of any country. Dont put words in my mouth, your anger is misplaced.

[markomalley]

30. Not advocating torture...

...simply advocating appropriate justice...under the rules of the "host" country.

Also, no anger...just trying to make my point.

[Mobius]

36. making a point by implying Im racist?

you have the wrong person on that score. Choose your words carefully.

ON EDIT: markomalley (121 posts) Fri Apr-30-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #15

17. How is this wrong???


She committed crimes against those Iraqi men. She is in Iraq. It would only be the appropriate thing to do. Or do you think those "little _____ savages" are incapable of providing a fair trial and proper justice according to a system of law?

Just in case he decides to edit his first post implying that I am a racist.

[markomalley]

45. Of course not...

...but I took your initial post as implying that they (the Iraqis) are incapable of meting out justice. I was simply countering that line of thinking.

As, apparently, you misinterpreted my initial post on the subject by indicating that I was advocating vigilantism, I may have misinterpreted your initial post, interpreting it to mean a lack of ability for self-governance. If I did misinterpret, my apologies. If I did not misinterpret, I'll stand by my remarks.

Regardless, racism was not ever a consideration one way or the other.

peace.

[Union Thug]

20. geez, fair is fair here...

I personally think she has it coming. I don't go walking down the street taking swings at people without expecting to get the shit kicked out of me at some point...

But, alright.. what do we do with these people? Do you seriously think they'll do any real jail time? I don't.

[Mobius]

25. I just want to be wary of a mob mentality

that makes us little better than they are.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Well that would certainly prove that "brown skinned people" are capable of

self governance. :D

[American Renaissance]

14. "dude, get the camera!"

you would not believe how much misconduct would go unpunished were it not for the fact some idiot felt the need to photograph their escapades AND post them on the internet.

AS for the girl, we just hired a woman who just got out after 14 years in the military, she simply said "the military doesn't attract the most well adjusted women, of the 5 sickest fucks I met, 3 of them were women"

[Calm Like A Bomb]

27. Between Jessica Lynch & Lynndie England...

the women of West Virginia are having one hell of a war, aren't they?

:eyes:

[Mobius]

31. No offense, but Jessica Lynch HAS NOTHING to do with this woman

and served honorably. you are also off topic as to this thread.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mobius]

49. You have been alerted for personal attacks

please try to stay on topic, thank you.

[Calm Like A Bomb]

51. Sorry, but I didn't attack you. n/t

[thebigidea]

57. I don't see any personal attacks here

And the comment, though snarky, was fairly on topic.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

48. thanks Lynndie

stupid cunt.

[Mobius]

52. "c*nt" has nothing to do with her participation

stupid and evil do, please dont get this thread locked, although I fully understand your anger.

[drfemoe]

54. Why is the woman

being singled out as the war criminal? There were at least six men there. What IS the point of this thread?

[Mobius]

56. because some here thought she shouldnt be named

as any other criminal might be. I fully encourage you to make thread title with the names and pictures of the other criminals, as thier names become available. I already planned to, after I was done discussing in this thread.

[smirkymonkey]

72. I think the reason people,

mostly men it seems, are reacting so strongly to this is because it is a picture of a woman sexually humiliating vulnerable men.

You see and hear of women being sexually humiliated by men all the time (rape, sexual violence, etc) in print and film and other media, but rarely, if ever, do you see the tables turned.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT WHAT SHE IS DOING ISN'T WRONG, SO DON'T INTERPRET THIS AS CONDONING HER BEHAVIOR. I am simply noticing what seems to be a powerful reaction by men toward this woman when obviously other men were just as involved, if not more so (face it - she didn't strip and tie up these men all by herself) in perpetrating this act.

The fact that she is laughing at them and make light of it just adds insult to injury. It is a sick situation all the way around, but I think the reaction toward HER PERSONALLY, instead of the group of soldiers responsible for this act is quite extreme.

[trof]

75. From AP:

A Sun reporter on Thursday showed a photo of one of the nude prisoner scenes to Terrie England, who recognized her daughter, reservist Lynndie R. England, 21, standing in the foreground with her boyfriend.

"Oh, my God," she told the newspaper from the stoop in front of her Fort Ashby, W.Va., trailer home. "I can't get over this."

[nolabels]

81. I am willing to bet there are much bigger fish to fry

Just remember they ship people off to other countries just because they do so much of a better job of torture in them. I like to take note the guy who they sent out to flower over a few atrocities in Nam is now Secretary of State. With the absurdity that Mr. Powel gets his information after the Saudi Princes, it would be no wonder why the horse is following the cart.

When money is the most valued, there are no other values

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. ~Buddha"

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

[vetwife]

83. Bet it was the nudity they were mad about not the torture

John Asscross was furious I am sure of the nudity as well as Monkey Boy, They would not have cared about the torture, just don't do it naked. This is bad, but now maybe folks will believe Kerry about 10 years of Nam and what went on. My husband said theis stuff went on all the time. The military makes you believe these people are not human. He said he never participated in the ear and head decapitiation but knew people in the field who did it and if you squealed they would kill you.