Is this now the most hated woman in America?

[Snoggera]

Who is she? Is there any information regarding this out there? I may have missed it.

She's now, in my book, #1 stupid, evil, piece of shit woman in (or to have come from and to represent) America. Ann the Mann ain't got nothin' on this.

[happynewyear]

1. she is evil

no doubt ... and I agree with you - the #1 evil HUMAN from America, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

May she rot in hell!

[Direckshun]

3. EVIL?

Who are you to pass judgment on who is evil and who is not?

Calling someone evil is SUCH a Republican thing to do. Don't succomb to it.

[Snoggera]

10. It's not Republican if used in the correct manner

evil
adj 1: morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence";
"evil deeds"
2: having the nature of vice
3: tending to cause great harm
4: having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent
stars"; "a malefic force"
n 1: morally objectionable behavior iniquity]
2: that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune: "the
evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft
interred with their bones"- Shakespeare
3: the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice:
"attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world"

[happynewyear]

its in the dictionary

You might wish to look up the word EVIL. The repukes do not own this word!

Here is a link that I got from Late Breaking News that tells all about LYNNDIE ENGLAND!

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[ShaneGR]

101. She was ignorant

Although it could be no fault of her own, not exactly a healthy environment. Perhaps she contributed to it. Perhaps not.

Regardless, they screwed up on a historical scale. But like all other problems, it's institutional and not individual.

[Snoggera]

104. Institutional fuck ups occur

because of individual fuck ups. Ignorance is no excuse, BTW. Ignorant of what, exactly? How to treat fellow human being prisoners?

[Bake]

127. Both institutional AND individual!

She is not -- NOT -- absolved by saying "it's institutional not individual." That's bullshit. There are individuals who comprise institutions.

Bake

[philosophie_en_rose]

105. Refusing to make a judgment enables evil.

This is not about the kind of judgmental arrogance that condemns people for not living up to personal taste. This about recognizing the horror inflicted by a representative of our government.

It's about justice. It's about addressing the evil that allows men and {forgive me for being biased} especially a woman to enjoy the sexual violation of another human being. Whatever crimes those men committed should have been handled with due process -- not rape.

You're asking the wrong question. Refusing to make a judgment enables evil. If we never come to conclusions, then nothing matters. Asking "who are you to call this woman evil?" completely misses the point.

Too many people fail to make judgments. They're apathetic. They ignore suffering that exists around them. They fail to stand up to the systems that allow humiliation. They refuse to make that choice. And, that is evil.

Of course, people make stupid judgments all of the time. However, judgments are necessary and every individual is responsible for the choices that they make. I have to say that reason that I am not a Republican is because I have made a judgment.

This war is evil.
The administration is corrupt.
Sexual torture is not acceptable. Ever.

[beanball]

120. Evil

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you can bet your last peso its a duck,if you do an evil thing you are evil.

[troublemaker]

117. Keep in mind that she has probably been raped a few times

by our own troops during her deployment. Not a defense of her, just an observation about how perfectly fucked up the whole situation is. I have no idea where anyone's head is at over there.

[Bake]

128. Oh really? You know this for a fact??

Why are you so willing to absolve her? Because she's a woman? She is a human being, doing vile evil things to another human being.

Bake

[VolcanoJen]

141. wtf? She was "probably been raped by our own troops?"

May I please request a link, or other sort of evidence, that leads you to this conclusion that she was probably raped by our own troops?

That's an outrageous accusation, to inflammatory to make without evidence. Back it up.

[jobycom]

163. From women I've known in the military

That's not unlikely. I'm not sure I'd say "probably," though frankly, I believe probably. And I'm not counting the stories from the different accademies, which were just news reports. These are from people I know. I grew up close to the military, and have relatives and in-laws in the military, ranging from enlisted to full colonel, so my opinion isn't uninformed. (Could still be wrong, though).

[jobycom]

162. Not evil, just enabled.

A fish rots from the head. When commanders on up to the commander in chief believe slaughtering and torturing large numbers of people, and when they don't even value lives enough to count them, the message trickles down.

Under a decent command structure she may learned better. She's in a land where anything goes, where children's bodies litter the streets, where our soldiers blow up vans full of civilians and are justified by the press in doing so. It's a bit hard to form an opinion of right and wrong in that situation, where your perspective is skewed, where what you've always been told is wrong become not only right, but heroic.

Weak chain of command, poor instructions, no moral integrity. Punish her, but don't forget who created the whole situation in the first place.

Bush hopes that by punishing her he can give the appearance that most of this war is clean. It's a distraction. Watch Breaker Morant, tell me if you think she was following orders or acting on her own.

[Direckshun]

2. Doesn't matter if she's a woman, and we don't need to know her name...

I don't care if she's female or male.

She was involved in a "party" involving both men and women, and they will all be held up and tried, and prosecuted.

She will get hers. She made a mistake, and will be punished. She doesn't need to have her name shared with the world.

[thebigidea]

7. "She doesn't need to have her name shared with the world."

Is that a joke?

You are kidding, right?

Give me one good reason her name should be kept private... what for?

It is already out there, anyway. Sorry.

[Direckshun]

16. Give me one good reason why her name SHOULD be public.

I'm waiting.

[thebigidea]

22. WAR CRIMES. TORTURE. CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

If they publish the name of some bozo with a pinch of pot in his glove compartment in the police blotter, they damn well better let us know who the hell is out ther committing torture wearing a US uniform.

You're actually defending her right to privacy?

WHY?!!

The only thing that comes to your mind upon seeing these pictures is: "gee, we better keep her name private"?!?!?

[Direckshun]

27. Why do any of those warrant a name?

Why do we have to know her name?

We know she's stupid. We know she did something that she will be punished for.

We have a picture of her.

Why a name? How does it benefit our society?

[thebigidea]

31. Your argument has degenerated into nonsense

Why do we have to know anything?

Why do we have to know it even happened?

Why do we have to have a picture?

How does that picture benefit our society?

Why did she have to torture them?

How did THAT benefit society?

So you think war criminals deserve a right to be anonymous? That's completely bonkers!

[Direckshun]

38. Have I? I think you've lost your grip on reality.

Why do we have to know anything?

Because it benefits us to know the information that protects us and informs us of information we should know. Knowing her name does neither.

Why do we have to know it even happened?

So we can be aware that our troops are not angels, always bringing happiness to the lives of the Iraqis. Knowing her name doesn't help us any more than the news already has.

Why do we have to have a picture?

So we can have proof. How does this imply we need to know her name? Jesus.

How does that picture benefit our society?

See above. You need to answer MY questions.

Why did she have to torture them?

She didn't. God, you people.

[thebigidea]

52. "you people"? Who exactly are "you people"?

"Because it benefits us to know the information that protects us and informs us of information we should know. Knowing her name does neither."

Is that Chapter I, Verses 3-4 from the Book of Rumsfeld?

It benefits us to know the information that protects us, namely, a name - which would help future employers in determining whether or not their potential employee is a sadistic goddamn torturer.

It allows those that live nearby to say: "Gee, maybe we should be careful around those Englands... after all, weren't they the couple that took pictures of rape and beatings in Iraq? Maybe we shouldn't ask her to babysit Theresa on sunday..."

"Knowing her name doesn't help us any more than the news already has."

Hey, this "not reporting the name" business might catch on.

"Our top story tonight - an unidentified man did something illegal to another unidentified man. Several other unidentified men expressed disgust. For Unidentified TV News, this is Anonymous Unidentified Reporting."

[alcuno]

80. I want to know her name so that if I ever see her on the street, I'll be

able to directly call her by name and tell her what a worthless piece of humanity she is. Knowing her name will benefit society as a whole because we learn from the mistakes of others AND the outrage directed towards them.

It's no different than publishing the names of those arrested/convicted for DUI's, child-molestation, or murder. The crime commited is against society as a whole and society needs to see that justice is carried out. If a person is found innocent, we need to know. If they are not, we need to learn of their punishment.

It's how a CIVILIZED society operates.

[SemperEadem]

84. So you're saying people charged with child molestation, too

deserve to keep their anonymity, if we follow your (il)logic.

Our society should identify perpetrators of CRIMES so that we can maintain a safe society, aware of the dangers presented in human form. And besides, we have a right to know. Period.

[dweller]

46. betcha you'll be watching

Nightline tonite and muttering some of the same lines you've written here...

hypocrite.
dp

[Direckshun]

50. How am I a hypocrite?

I'll be watching the program tonight with tears in my eyes.

[thebigidea]

56. Why does it help to know their names? You should just be satisfied..

with the fact that "unidentified persons" were killed in Iraq.

How does knowing their names possibly help you? It doesn't benefit society.

[dweller]

67. Are you reading and posting

the Sinclair Broadcasting memos?

"She doesn't need to have her name shared with the world."
"Give me one good reason why her name SHOULD be public."
"Why do any of those warrant a name?"


your conscience should bring your tears on.
dp

[Direckshun]

72. Dweller, your fallacies warrant dismissal.

Just because I disagree with Sinclair Broadcasting on an issue doesn't mean me and Sinclair Broadcasting agree on every issue.

You poor argumentation may bring me to tears before the program even airs tonight.

[dweller]

81. choking on a pretzal there?

agree or disagree which is it?

i'm not arguing Dreckshun.

just pointing out the obvious.

as posted below, some serious introspection is needed.

new at this Democratic game are you?
dp

[leesa]

164. She's a criminal and she should "own" her crime. She does not deserve

anonimity. And yes, she DID torture them.

[Snoggera]

63. because

1) She represents the US in a uniform, and has obviously violated the Geneva Conventions.

2) How do we know she'll be punished in a manner befitting the crime?

3) So?

4) a. Because inhumane acts against another human being should not be covered up or tolerated.
b. Outrage over criminal acts committed in a nations name should create an environment in which rational humans are able to discuss methods for not allowing these things to happen again.

There are more answers, but I grow weary.

[LunaC]

107. Secrecy is a trademark of the neocons

And frankly I'm sick of it. When it's time for accountability, it's time to name NAMES!

[dweller]

111. tonite

on Nightline they are naming names...sadly they are not the ones that need to be recited.

as this post was confronted with ' why name a person who has done this crime?' illogic, every attempt is being made to cover up the names because those names all point back to those who are truly guilty.

*moron
cheney
wolfowitz
rumsfield
rice
perle and the pnac cabal en toto....you know there are too many to list here.

They don't want the criminals nor the innocent dead name's revealed, for that just points back to those who sent them to commit the crimes for them, and die in their stead.

that's accountability...apologists be damned with them.
dp

[wildwww2]

151. She`s a tool of Bu$h`s evil war crime. And I want to know her name.

Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Mobius]

39. She is a direct threat to our National Security

thats why.

[Direckshun]

51. How?

And how will knowing her name enhance our national security?

[mouse7]

60. Adult criminals are always named in warrants and indictments

Are you claiming members of the military deserve more rights than civilians? Gacy, Bundy, Manson, Dahlmer... we always know the names.

[Mobius]

65. well, knowing the name will show the US is not protecting a war criminal

that has severely damaged the reputation of the US as well as creating anger that WILL lead to acts of aggression against the US.

[SemperEadem]

85. How will not knowing her name degrade our national security?

[SemperEadem]

77. Because she's grown enough to willingly and joyfully participate

in the deed, then she's grown enough to take her asswhippin' for it. She's not a child, but an adult.

[IndianaGreen]

142. Lynndie England's name was made public by her hometown newspaper

Another reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, told her mother in January about potential problems at the Iraq prison.

England grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[Misunderestimator]

160. Monica Lewinsky's name was made public

... how was that necessary?

Besides all of the other good reasons posted already.

[Maccagirl]

11. Yeah-sure looks like a "party" to me!

Why shouldn't her name be published?

[Direckshun]

20. Why SHOULD her name be published?

And I was hoping you'd pick up on my sarcasm from calling it a "party."

But you didn't. Brilliant, Maccagirl.

[Tinoire]

35. For the same reason she took photos which were published on PORN sites

to humiliate an entire people.

Her name should be published and reviled as should the names of EVERY SINGLE person involved in this despicable crime which is far more extensive than the 6 scape-goats they're throwing out to the angry crowd.

Posing for pictures which were processed and mailed out as HARD PRINTS.

That sweet little young thing of American maidenhood...

No sorry. No protection. No mercy.

May this hound the people involved to their dying day.

The names & faces of the German Nazis are known. Let the same thing be done to the names & faces of the American Nazis.

I have no compassion for them.

A mistake? A PARTY?! Good God man, your comment is like some of the ones at Free Republic that this is no worse than a college frat prank.

The day someone imprisons you, forces you to be buggered while you bugger someone else, mocks you while proudly posing for photos that will be plastered on sick internet porn sites, sticks their finger in your rectum... please, that day come back to DU and tell us all how it wa just a party and that all they did was make a mistake.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

55. The difference between us

is that I share NO trait in common with the freepers.

I do not believe in covering war crimes or protecting those who do.

[thebigidea]

61. thirst for vengeance? And you don't think its JUSTIFIED?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[thebigidea]

59. well, maybe this sort of thing IS a party for him

I'm astonished that someone would actually want to keep their names secret. Bezerk!

[Tinoire]

64. Hop over to FR

About 1/3 of them are APPALLED and want these people prosecuted to the fullest. The rest think it's nothing worse than a frat party, literally.

[Ladyhawk]

94. Amen, Tinoire.

Every American should know the name of this woman and the others involved in this war crime. I can't understand the mentality of anyone who would want to protect their privacy. Hell, we know the names of people arrested for drunk driving.

Unfuckingbelievable that someone would defend these criminals.

[Dookus]

40. Her name should be published so that

for the rest of her natural life, she will be followed by the scorn and hatred that she has so richly earned.

Her name should be published so that the next yahoo who thinks of doing something like this will remember Lynndie and how shamed she was.

Her name should be published so that NOBODY thinks they can get away with this stuff and then go on to have a normal life.

Fuck Lynndie. I hope when she's 80 years old, these pictures still haunt her.

[Direckshun]

48. So let me get this straight, Dookus,

You think that somebody who might be planning on doing the same thing this woman has done WON'T do it now, simply because her name was revealed?

NOT because her picture was published worldwide?

NOT because she will be convicted of a war crime?

NOT because she will likely never serve in our armed forces again?

Sounds to me that if a person were to do the same thing this woman did, if he didn't mind that other stuff, he/she wouldn't mind having his/her name revealed.

[Dookus]

58. I think

people who do things like this should live a life of scorn and shame. They should be ostracized from decent human beings. They should spend a lifetime being reminded of their crimes.

We have to know who they are in order to do that.

[homelandpunk]

114. Is this bitch

your fucking sister or girlfriend? Jesus! you keep arguing on her behalf like she is important to you. Kee-riced. Ya made your stupid point already. Don't publish her name!!!! I think the Iraqi who had his pecker published should rule on this one....my guess is he would like to see her name published. But....does the brown-skinned detainees opinion matter to you?
Her ugly ass inbred face revolts me. Even more sickening is your argument.

[beanball]

121. Right on

why must we protect people that do foolish and sometimes evil deeds,publish her name and let her feel the shame she deserves.

[Tinoire]

57. Thank you Dookus.

In a nutshell that was.

[happynewyear]

68. don't worry, this will follow her and her boyfriend forever

If it is so important as to hide/conceal their identities, then why didn't they have a bags over their heads like those they tortured and/or killed? Instead, we see nothing but the big SMILES on their faces as they humiliated and tortured these fellow human beings.

They have revealed their identities to the world by apparently happily agreeing to be photograhed.

I have no sympathy for either one of them.

How many other cases like this are there?

How many others must be tried and convicted?

I don't believe a mere demotion from Specialist to Private 1st
Class does a thing to correct this. If this is the penalty for this behavior, this scenario will likely be repeated time and time again sadly enough.

[SemperEadem]

91. Now, she's got a moniker which will stick to her like stink

you know, like Madonna will always be "the material girl"

She will always be qualified anytime she pops to the surface from now on. She will never live this down. The media will NEVER let her escape this. Anytime she does anything and it makes press, there will be a line, somewhere in the column/story that will point to these pictures and the aftermath of engaging in a war crime.

[SiliconMethod]

115. I agree Dookus ((n/t))

[Bake]

131. For the same reason that we remember the names of other monsters

Like Hitler, Goebbels, and others who are guilty of crimes against humanity. The name serves as a remembrance for the rest of the world; it points out that INDIVIDUALS can do horrific things -- those are the people who we most want to NOT be like.

Bake

Edited for typos

[Gothic Sponge]

12. She will be a future repug congress woman

or some guest on Jerry Springer.... Maybe both.

[goddess40]

26. sorry but that is not a mere "mistake"

it is a crime that she willfully took part in. To excuse it as a "mistake" is to lessen it severity.

[Direckshun]

30. Whether the severity...

It doesn't matter. You guys...seriously.

Yes, it's a crime she took part in. And she will be published.

But why is SHE the #1 hated person in America? Because none of the other soldiers had the veracity to stand in a picture, too?

ALL those Americans deserve public humiliation, or none of them at all.

[goddess40]

45. Agree, they should all be named

I think they should their trials on TV too.

[Snoggera]

70. "Yes, it's a crime she took part in. And she will be published."

What a Freudian slip that was if I ever saw one.

Jessica Lynch, she ain't!

[happynewyear]

29. a party?

God, you are sick.

<eom>

[Direckshun]

32. Read the context.

I was hoping you guys would be pick up on the sarcasm I emphasized behind "party."

But apparently I shall take more care next time. Whatever.

Yeah. I'm sick. Woo hoo.

[Mobius]

33. a mistake?

the rape and sexualmolestation of HUMAN BEINGS in front of a camera for fun and pleasure when you are supposed to be gaining the support of these people is a mere MISTAKE??? Share her name with the world. Why should she be granted anonymity? She should be in a cell next to Hussein and tried for war crimes along with her fellow "party goers".
Do you need to be reminded that most or all of these men, were not even proven to have done anything against the American troops, but were just taken out of thier homes in the middle of the night?
I cant say what I really feel about your statements becuase I dont want this thread locked. I feel you need to do some seriuos introspection.

[SiliconMethod]

34. It's of age. I want all their names!

To keep them anonymous would be an insult against the honest men and women in our force! The rotten apples need to be exposed.

(edit: grammar)

[Snoggera]

47. The public gets the names of 14 year olds on trial

for murder.

Why not this?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. She deserves to have her name shared as much as Lieutenant Calley

did in Mai Lai. America confronting its war crimes is a GOOD thing that KEEPS s from needlessly starting wars.

[happynewyear]

4. P.S.

There is a whole story about her (last name is England and she is from W. Virginia I believe) to be found on the Late Breaking News. I think it is still there.

She is sick beyond belief. War does ugly things to people and the evil simply flourish. :(

[Snoggera]

15. I'll look for it

thank you

[SiliconMethod]

5. Did I miss something?

Where was this picture and what's going on? I don't get this...

edit: I just turned on CNN.... I think I see where this is going... to the gallows!

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

6. ann probably envies her

suddenly those 'alarmists' who point out pentagon misdeeds don't look so nutty anymore

[randr]

8. She is not only the new "Ugly American" poster child

She is the epitome of all that is evil in the world!
It is up to all of us to recognize this in one of the inevitable results of war, no matter how glorious the cause.

[tnlefty]

9. I'll give her the most sick, twisted sister award....Anthax Annie Coulter

still gets my most hated though.

There's an article in LBN that lists her name along with some others.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. She's the most hated in the Muslim world that is for sure

and the sad thing is many Americans seem to have no problem with what she did. What scares me most is all this pathology will come home to our streets soon and unleash their sadistic behavior here at home.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

14. WV, huh?

I feel terribly sorry for the good people of WV right now. They are gonna have to endure more of the usual comments and jokes and asides, and that just ain't right.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

23. sigh, yep

embarassing my state again

nothing surprises me anymore


what part of wv?

[Az]

17. This is the active end of Ann's words

First we kill all their leaders and then we convert them to Christianity.

[mmonk]

and I bet her family has been so proud

that she was serving the country.

[goddess40]

18. We always expect more from women

It seems men get a pass on some bad behavior but not women. Although in this case none of them are getting a pass from any decent person.
I'm gulity of it too. When I was a correctional officer if a women did something stupid it felt like a personal attack on my integrity. Partly because we females were out numbered and there was a sense that when one screwed up, pun intended, the sexist men would say 'see women don't belong here, they can't do the job'.
She just disgusts me, I find these monsters beyond repulsive. If the military doesn't take a strong and visable stand the support your troops signs may start disappearing from peoples yards.
Not only do they have to address those that did the torture but those that looked the other way and let it happen.

[Tinoire]

19. Her name is Lynndie R. England. 21 years old.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"Oh, my God," she said, her body stiffening as she sat on a cooler on the trailer's small stoop.

"I can't get over this," she said, taking a drag on her cigarette.

<snip>

"I just want you to know that there might be some trouble," she warned her mother in a phone call from Baghdad. "But I don't want you to worry."

<snip>

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

<snip>

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[slinkerwink]

24. 21. god. my age.....

and so fucking stupid.

[TahitiNut]

132. What she did is quite a bit worse than just "stupid".

And there's no doubt in my mind that the command structure of that unit encouraged this behavior.

[SiliconMethod]

At this point, it's "it," not "her." This isn't human ((n/t))

[fishnfla]

42. She's engaged to the other guy in the photo?

EWWWW, cant imagine their honeymoon, and please for the sake of mankind do not procreate.

[disenfranchised]

21. I still vote for Omorosa.

[Calm Like A Bomb]

86. Karen Hughes was the first name that popped into my head. n/t

[Norquist Nemesis]

125. Mine too!

Not seeing too much of Ann the Choker Coulter these days though...

[Calm Like A Bomb]

129. You say that like it's a bad thing!

Not seeing Annthrax is a blessing. I'll take what I can get the way things have been going.

[Norquist Nemesis]

136. Coulter's an evil bitch

I'm thankful no one's foisted her upon us lately. She really seemed to take a downturn after losing it on Hardball one night--she hasn't been on since Matthews pretty much called her out as a liar that has no logical argument.

[Piperay]

147. Same here

I think Hughes is most EVIL. :evilfrown:

[SiliconMethod]

25. And she smiles too?

I always challenged anyone that said that the soldiers were no better than Nazis... but for this one, I grant an exception. This is something I expect only from the Gestapo...

[No2W2004]

36. It's exactly the same

as the pictures of the smiling SS men standing and pointing at the nude Jewish women headed off to the "showers"

and shrub says he's pissed off

yea, pissed off he wasn't invited to the "party"

[Failure]

the other side hates and calls people evil...we're above that...

she'll get hers, don't worry.

[happynewyear]

37. evil is evil

and there are no two ways around it. It is not a word "reserved" for anyone - it is a description of a malevolent being in this case. LYNNDIE ENGLAND is evil IMO.

However, evil eventually destroys itself by the very nature of what it is. That is the only aspect of this that gives me some hope that this will not continue.

[Old and In the Way]

28. Very strange woman, no doubt.

Overcompensating to show she's "one of the boys"?

I'll bet she never thought she'd become a lightening rod for all that's wrong with our occupation/war in Iraq. She will have to live with her good ole boy photo shoot.

[Snoggera]

44. That brings up an interesting thought

What has she gone through prior to this picture being taken? How did she end up at the prison? Why was she chosen to be the one actually IN the pictures?

I guess more than just one interesting thought.

[Old and In the Way]

66. I'm willing to give her a wee break.

She's 21 and is immersed in a male-dominated, mucho machismo environment. No doubt this is a dehumanizing experience for the captives and the captors. I don't know, but there may be some false bravado that's played out in these pics, her way to deal with the environment that's she's been thrust into.

[thebigidea]

71. that's an incredible rationalization. Congrats!

[crossroads]

102. It might be hard for some woman to see this

sh*t, but looks like this one's having a great time participating in it! All smiles and all, maybe she was the main reason the fire got fueled! She just might have found her calling!

[readmylips]

54. The guy in the photo with her is her....

fiance. They deserve each other. The media reported that she was raised in WVirginia, in a trailer where her mothet still lives. Wasn't Paula Jones born and raised in a trailer?

[Old and In the Way]

69. I didn't know that. Makes it even more bizarre.

Maybe they deserve each other. Wonder how they'll explain those pics to their kids in 15 years or so?

[happynewyear]

75. hopefully ...

there won't be any "offspring" ... God save us.

[Nashyra]

73. Paula Jones raised in a trailer?

The reference to "a trailer" is neither neccessary or justified. What are you implying about people who are living in trailers? Many good hard working people live in trailers and some not so good people live in trailers, just as many hard working people end up in a variety of homes large and small, and some very bad people live in very big houses, some that are White, so knock off the "trailer" line. As to the original post, her name should be public so that everyone knows who it is so that there will be no misunderstanding or speculation about who it could be. I have to admit that I feel bad that she was ever put in the position, and I can't imagine anyone being so stupid, ok yes I can but to let some one take your picture? It is part of the *'s mantra about how "evil" those people are. The *'s total disrespect for others in this world have added to the attitude that some of our soldiers have taken with them. It is a very sad dilema for all of us. God help us all.

[RebelOne]

76. Thank you. I live not in a trailer but a "mobile home."

It's so sad that people who live in mobile homes are equated with beer-swilling, illiterate rednecks. There are those like myself who can not afford high house payments and opted to buy a mobile home for cash and only pay a lot payment.

[Kool Kitty]

135. Thanks. I lived in a trailer most of my life.

I like to think I grew up to be a reasonably decent human being. My parents were and my sister certainly is.

[RebelOne]

148. It annoys me that others degrade those

who live in mobile homes.

[Az]

41. More evil than her are those that set her to her task

They knew the effects. They convinced her she was doing good. They pumped her full of pride at gaining vengence on those that sought to harm us. The orchestrators of these actions are far more calculating and malignant than this ignoramus.

[Tinoire]

62. I want to know their names to. A Nuremberg "Party" for all of them! n/t

[crossroads]

103. Hear! Hear!

<eom>

[TahitiNut]

133. Exactly, Az! Most folks just don't comprehend that they themselves ...

... can be indoctrinated into performing such detestible acts.

[DemExpat]

146. So true......

Depressing realization though, isn't it?

DemEx

[TahitiNut]

153. It was for me.

To finally realize that I observed human behavior as an 'insider' was sobering. To discover that I had every bit as much of a chance to be among those who'd commit such abhorrent abuses as those who'd suffer them (but for "the Grace of G_d") was my inescapable conclusion based on a series of experiences including Vietnam.

The instant "answers" (just add water) don't come so easily or flippantly when I understand this.


:hug: Hi, luv!

[DemExpat]

156. I also have known for many years that I am capable of

the darkest deeds. I truly believe that every human is - under certain circumstances. But it always remains a CHOICE imo....

It is a sobering realization, but also strangely "liberating" to realize common humanity at its best as well as at its worst...

:hug: to you too, Mike,

DemEx

[mouse7]

49. You know better than that. I'm sure Hillary is still more hated.

This woman only committed war crimes. Hillary is intelligent and speaks her mind. That's far more criminal.

[SemperEadem]

74. Ann Coulter probably wants to do her

"oooh, she just makes me all squishy inside!!!!!", gushed Coulter, flush with anticipation.

(/sarcasm)

[qazplm]

79. please remember

that ALL accused are innocent til proven guilty. So while it is totally acceptable for us as non-jurors to decide guilt or innocence from afar, it seems to me that for the purposes of the system, we SHOULDNT name accused ever.

Now, ONCE they are convicted, why then they are fair game, but lets say 10 people are "named" and soldier number 10 actually turns out to be innocent?

How do you take that back?

So, I agree that she shouldnt be named until after she is found guilty, just the way I feel about any other accused.

[Snoggera]

87. I doubt the photo was photoshopped

It appears to be an actual picture of an event, with the individual (or individuals) able to be named. To accuse is not to be found guilty. The accused in America have always been named. They are then taken to court and culpability determined.

?

[Az]

99. We still do not know the entirety of the situation

Convince me she was not ordered by her CO to assist Merc interegators and that she was told their prisoners were the insurrgents responsible for the torture of the four american mercs.

Look, we can be outraged. We can nash our teeth. We can wail at what has become of our nation. But we cannot presume we know the entirety of the situation. I see a very stupid woman in these pictures. I do not know how she got there or who put her there. I know that a great crime has been committed and I will forever bear the shame my nation now bears because of these actions. And I will not accept anything other than the truth of what happened there and the full weight of the law brought to bear on all and any responsible.

[Az]

88. Well said

and welcome to DU.

[Toucano]

96. Yeah, don't name her until she's been proven guilty.

Just like the didn't name Chaplain James Yee until they had him convicted.

[SemperEadem]

100. The accused are named in the police reports in this country

The process is you're accused, arraigned, tried then either exonerated or convicted.

Name one case where the perpetrator is not ever named?

Wish I had some of what you're smoking, dude.

[acmavm]

78. Apparently some people don't have a clue as to the backlash this

is going to cause for the American men and women in Iraq that would NEVER EVER even think of doing something so damned depraved. The anger felt in the Arab world about this immense. And ALL of our people stationed there will pay for this 'proud' display by this woman. The men were smart enough not to be photographed. This woman, and I hate to call her that, was an ignorant, depraved, sadistic, immoral, inhumane trollop. And what she did will cost us dearly, you wait and see. I know she wasn't the only one, but she sure looks damn proud of herself, doesn't she?

[Catherine Vincent]

82. I wouldn't say she's evil but she's your typical low class bitch.

[Selteri]

83. Evil / Stupid

On this picture I find the picture to be abhorant, yet what I find more abhorrant is the attitude that is prevalent among too many people in America, "Why do we have to follow the Geneva Convention when they don't?" Is among the most common as well as the famous, "Why is everyone focusing on what America is doing instead of those Terrorist Iraqi (sometimes adding that they caused 9-11 ignorantly)" or the4 most famous, "We're there because we're protecting the US."

All of these are falshoods that have been foisted upon us in the claim of a liberal media that donated 75% of it's political monies to the Conservative republicans this year.

We in America have been party to this falsehood for so long that we have begun to accept it as the truth. First it became 'alright' for tabloids to print false articles for public figures as long as they were willing to print a retraction and it wasn't 'too harmful', then the laws changed to allow radio talk show hosts to be able to do the same in 'voicing thier opinions' and now our politicians and news casters do the same. Faux News and many of these dangerous people who are acting more as examples of fascists than conservatives have taken things to a new level.

For true change to happen in this country we must first begin by forcing personal responsability upon people instead of continuing this 'blame game'. A 'good' president would have stepped before the cameras the day of 9-11 and said, "My fellow Americans, I have failed you as a leader by allowing these horrific acts to take place. My administration has failed you and your government has failed you. As your leader I must ultimately take responsability for what happened, yet these were the actions of terrorists and now is not the time to dwell in guilt, but to stand united to rebuild the pieces that the terrorist destroyed and as a country say, 'No we will not live in fear, we will not let you control us, we are a free nation and we will not give you power over us.' I ask you, my fellow Americans to stand with me against this group of murders and cowards to say in one united voice, 'No More'!" Then lived up to that statement

That would have been a lot better than, "My felow Americans, my friends the isrelites told me it's Osama Bin Laden. I've let his family leave the US and at this moment am telling our troups to take over Afgahnistan so that I can put a drug king pin into power while I strip more rights away from you for your safety. F*** the founding fathers and F*** you." Then diverted money for his personal war.

While these are both fictional examples for a personal point of view of what was done and what was said; but, actions speak louder than words. The actions we have seen from this administration are criminal and very close to what the founding fathers would have called 'a sign of needed revolution'.

Don't forget, those were ideas put down by Revolutionaries and Radicals.

[roguevalley]

90. adults should be responsible for their actions. She was representing

US, all of us. People are going to see her and think America.
Matt Maupin may now be paying a price in pain and death because
of her and the others. If you can't do the time, don't do the
crime. Her face is out there. She PUT it there. Now is time to
stand up and take the punishment. There is nothing wrong with
SHAME when you mess up this bad.

Common humanity would have prevented them from doing this. You
don't have to know the Geneva Conventions. Her boyfriend, the
tall ass, is a prison guard in private life. NO EXCUSES!!!!!!!

I hate her. She should be glad I'm not her mom. She would have
to go to eBay to get a new one.

[stellanoir]

89. ya know. . .

of course these acts are despicable, but what of the "contractors"
(aka mercenaries) who encouraged these untrained neophytes who were unversed in the subtlies of the Geneva convention, to "soften up" the prisoners? And what of the high ranking female officer in charge of procedures who has mysteriously disappeared. . .?

[Snoggera]

92. A member of the most highly trained, most efficient

armed force in the history of the world didn't just walk in, ask for a job, and end up working at the prison. She had a lot of training, in many aspects of warfare. If the Conventions were not included, then that is a serious deficiency, which I do not believe exists.

[IkeWarnedUs]

168. Snoggera, let me clear up a couple of your misconceptions

First of all, the US Military Reserves and National Guard are NOT the most highly trained and most efficient armed force in the history of the world. They are part-time soldiers with minimal training, many of whom never expected to see actual combat and war.

As to this soldier's training, she was trained for clerical work. Read this article from the Baltimore Sun:

<snip>
Lynndie England, a railroad worker's daughter who made honor roll at the high school near here, had enlisted in the 372nd for college money and the chance to widen her small-town horizons. In January, however, she gave her family the first inkling that something had gone woefully wrong.
<snip>
This was not supposed to be the fate of a girl who grew up hunting turkey or killing time with her sister at the local Dairy Dip, making wisecracks about the cars whizzing past.

"She wanted to see the world and go to college," said Terrie England, whose T-shirt bore a design of heart-shaped American flags. "Now the government turned their back on her, and everything's a big joke."
<snip>
Destiny Goin said the Army had trained her sister Lynndie for an administrative job, "a paper pusher." Instead, she wound up helping to guard 900 Iraqi prisoners of war in a sprawling, squalid compound near Baghdad.

more: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines


The army admits the "part-time soldiers" are not trained in the rules of the Geneva convention. Here's a snip from the 60 Minutes II transcript:

<snip>
The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers who didn't get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular Army members.

more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

And finally, it wasn't even the US military that was giving the orders at the prison. This is from The Guardian News Service in The Hindu:

<snip>
A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the London-based Guardian newspaper - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.
<snip>
But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light.The military investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghraib.
<snip>
At one point, the investigators say: ``A CACI instructor was terminated because he allowed and/or instructed MPs (military police) who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by setting conditions which were neither authorised in accordance with applicable regulations/policy.''

Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian newspaper: ``One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him.''

much more: http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/000200404301201.htm

[Toucano]

93. She's a victim, too.

Yeah, I said it.

You don't think she's been subjected to a major mind fuck to permit her to behave that way? She's just another tool in their arsenal.

You're only seeing part of the tragedy.

[Snoggera]

98. Would that be said if the soldier was a male?

pointing at or pretending to blow off female genitals?

If not, then why not? If more so, then why?

Why not leave the gender out of it. Men and women in America have no where near the gap in education or acceptable behaviors as in much of the rest of the world.

I agree it is a tragedy, but this is not a 12 year old undergoing peer pressure to have sex with a boyfriend. I think all know the difference between that analogy and a 21 year old woman soldier who has spent many months in the midst of a war.

[Toucano]

109. The only reference to her sex was the correct pronoun.

If you want to discuss the males who committed the atrocities, just substitute the correct pronoun. What I said will still be true.

I never said it had anything to do with her sex. Your thread didn't call her the most hated person in America, did it?

Did you assume that the word 'victim' was used because she's a female?

______________________________________________________


They make guns. They make bombs. They make monsters.

Open the tool box, take out the tool you need to do the job.

What I hope you'd consider is that to demonize her is to miss the facts that:

She was manufactured to be a weapon.

Her weaknesses and shortcomings were exploited; she may have even been selected for the process based on those weaknesses. Just like a carpenter might select the knottiest, most warped board to be used where it won't be seen.

The blow-back from these weapons having being seen will be used to justify and perpetuate their need.

You and I paid the people who created her for their "service".

They're making more. Just like the rest of the arsenal.

[philosophie_en_rose]

106. But she's also responsible too.

Look, it's not as if she was just happened to fall into the pictures. She enjoyed it. And, even if there is a tragic story that limited her choices, she was still an eager participant in torture.

The male soldiers need to be exposed, as well.

[Toucano]

110. "...it's not as if she was just happened to fall into the pictures."

That's precisely the point.

The sex of the person isn't relevent to my point.

It may have mattered to those who created her and chose to employ her on this assignment since, I assume, it exacerbated the torment.

[mike1963]

95. I'd like to shoot that cigarette out of her mouth. But I'm not as good a

shot as I once was.
.....

[0rganism]

97. She's in the wrong place for the wrong reasons with a weak sense of ethics

It's no surprise she did some fucked-up things. Who was there to tell her to stop? Who put her in that situation to begin with? The first step in not obeying unlawful orders is knowing they are unlawful. I don't think she understood this.

I don't hate her. I hope we can get over our disgust at the individual's actions to see them as symptomatic, rather than exceptional. Humans are strange beings, inclined to do bizarre things when lacking insight and self-discipline.

[SiliconMethod]

113. That don't work

No matter your circumstances, one retains their sense of humanity. This soldier (and I use that term reluctantly adressing this individual) has cast all sense of honor, dignity and humanity to the curb by posing in this manner. She is beyond a disgrace; she is a warped symbol of the inhumanity of this war.

[0rganism]

118. I think you put far too much faith in "sense of humanity"

If the other humans one's dealing with have been successfully constructed as sub-human in one's mind, then all manner of atrocities are not only possible, but downright likely. That is the sad reality of the "sense of humanity". The American woman in the picture would probably be suitably outraged if the Iraqi prisoners had not already lost their humanity in her eyes.

But you're right about one thing: she is symbolic. She is symbolic of the great evil otherwise normal humans often perpatrate upon one-another when they have lost the underlying respect for other humans of one sort or another.

A major failing of the teaching of history has been a tendency to cast its greatest villains, its Hitlers and Napoleons and Tamerlanes, as inhuman monsters. When we forget that these people too were fully human, we underestimate our own capacities for unethical behavior. Those who commit the greatest atrocities are a direct expression of the depths to which any of us can sink.

[TahitiNut]

134. Perfectly stated, Organism.

Once I realized it, the thing that scared me most is that I could find myself in either position: abuser or abused. We humans are far, far more adaptive and malleable than we realize. From the Milgram Experiment to the Stanford Prison Experiment, the evidence is clear.

[DemExpat]

149. Absolutely.....she is a symbol of the possibility of all of our

inhumanity, IMHO....just about everything coming out of this administration is to me from the lowest reaches and the darkest sides of our common human nature.

The world needs thoughtful, respectful role models for positive inspiration instead of this evil generating evil........God, I know that I do....

:-( :-( :-(

DemEx

[Triple H]

108. What an evil bitch she is.

:grr:

[peacetalksforall]

112. Scattered thoughts

I often think the Japanese are superior in their sense of responsibility...(short of committing suicide)...that is, the person in charge of the company takes responsibility...therefore, in my book it should go right up the line - all of them in a line should resign.

There is imbalance here - we know the names of the people in the photos and one of the superiors has been named, but what are the name of the person who took the photos and who are the other 15? Should their photos be shown and their names published?

Why is this only coming out in April when she aleady knew she had done something against rules in January?

Who is our poll taker - it appears one is in order to find out if anyone really believes there will be justice ....most of the time, those who are involved in 'mistakes' that hit the front page over a period of time - always get off lightly.

There are many psychological and sociological things going on here - it wasn't just a single person act - there was plenty of bravado, most likely, that spurred them on. The female element is particularly unusual because of all the sex torture. The clash of cultures and demonstrations of domination are stupendous based on the holier than thou stance of citizens of this country and self claims of superiority over other people on this earth.

I don't know exactly when an act moves from being a mistake to being a crime. But, what will the defense be - will sociologists, psychologists, or brass who embrace the enemy combatment method of dealing with people lead the defense?

Whether pharmaceutical, chemically enhanced, or natural (or naturally predatory), these people were on a high. Will that figure into the high.

Whether or not you know that names or whether they should be published - should the full list of aggressions be published? Should we know all the grisly details of their high?

In the end - I say, no matter what happens to these young soldiers - get their superiors. They are responsible for creating or allowing the context and atmosphere. Then ask yourself, if the media is going to knock on the door of the parents of these young soldiers superiors?

[corporatewhore]

116. She isnt a woman. She aint even human

[0rganism]

119. All too human, I'm afraid

Denying the humanity of criminals and despots is a huge mistake.

[liarliartieonfire]

122. Her name and those that had any part in this atrocity SHOULD BE MADE

PUBLIC.
They should suffer public humiliation to the degree that they humiliated these captives.

Public humiliation the way any sexual molester or photographer of porn-by-force, would have to endure in the United States. These captives weren't performing on their own consent were they?

Captured and forced to perform for the likes of this b-word of a woman and her cohorts.
In this country it would be criminal. How about any other country?

this woman and her pals should be in prison. 20 yrs to life.

Were they made to "perform" at gunpoint? Were there threats to their lives if they did not comply?

These were Iraqis on their soil. They have their own laws governing this type of actions. Isn't it death?

I offer NO consolation to these soldiers.
They certainly appear to be enjoying the antics.
Public humiliation while they await trial,
like every other American so accused of a crime of this nature.

[lostnfound]

123. I've always thought fraternity hazing was degrading, too..

so how far is what this woman is doing from fraternity hazing?

I don't know, I'm just asking.

(I do realize this may be a stupid, obtuse, and insensitive comment...)

[Renew Deal]

124. Hopefully she's dead.

Because she's going to want to be by the time the press gets through with her.

[camero]

126. Honestly I don't know

I just can't seem to get the Lorena Bobbitt picture out of my head looking at that pic. Other than that I have no idea what she did.

I should check out LBN to see what exactly she is accused of doing to the prisoners.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

130. Not among republicans: They still hate Hillary worse than anyone.

*

[sampsonblk]

137. She should at least be hot!

Then the Freepers could defend her. As it is, this is disgusting and indefensible.

[TexasMexican]

138. Nah most dont even know her.

I dont. I just heard about this thing tonight and am not seeing much about it on the news other than online.

[liarliartieonfire]

139. Freep Media

We'll see less of this sort of truth when NBC goes all-freep-all-the-time.
NBC will be taken over by the ex-Babs Bush's assitant in May.

[VTMechEngr]

140. I see a name in this Blog. But not sure if its the women in the pics

Sounds like it though.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

[IndianaGreen]

143. Her name is Lynndie England

Another reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, told her mother in January about potential problems at the Iraq prison.

England grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Related thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=520983

[Snazzy]

144. Pictured are Lynndie R. England and her fiancée Charles Graner

A happy loving couple who joined the 372nd MP reserves because wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture and torture them.

---------

Who took the pictures?


---------


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Edit: add photo. Don't forget the guy

[TahitiNut]

154. Defending our "Purity Of Essence"

Noble mission, huh? :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

161. "A happy loving couple who joined the 372nd MP reserves because..."

A happy loving couple who joined the 372nd MP reserves because wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture and torture them.

JOKER

I wanted to see exotic
Vietnam, the jewel of
Southeast Asia. I wanted to meet interesting
and stimulating people of an ancient culture
and ... kill them. I
wanted to be the first kid
on my block to get a confirmed kill.

FULL METAL JACKET

The screenplay by

Stanley Kubrick, Michael Herr and Gustav Hasford

Based on the novel The short-Timers by Gustav Hasford

1987

http://www.sawnoff.demon.co.uk/script.txt

[Snazzy]

165. Yep. Just watched it again last week.

And I should have put a footnote.

A world of shit, ain't it?!

I am way over due to for some Dr. Strangelove as TN points out.


----
Edit: That's a take on an army recruiting poster or tv ad in the 60's, isn't it? Trying to find original.

[fujiyama]

145. Most hated woman in America?

Nah, among the Freeper crowd (which unfortunately constitutes about a third of the nation), she's an American patriot, who is doing only what's needed.

The rest will be split. Another third, will simply not care. They'll say, "shit happens in war" and leave it at that.

About a third, maybe will actually be disgusted enough by this to actually care.

Look, we've been bombing the shit out of Fallujah for several weeks now. Do most people even care? The first week of the bombings, Bush's poll numbers went UP. That's how brainwashed the public is.

As for the world at large, I would assume that she is one of the most hated women, especially in the Arab world.

We lost the war. The pics confirm the worst fears of Arabs. The Americans want to come in and humilate them. They said that about Saddam, and hell, people in the Arab world didn't even like him.

This is a whole new story. The "hearts and minds" are lost. It's over. The neoconservative and idiot "liberal"'s dreams are over. This war will NOT spread democracy like wildfire.

This actually makes progress LESS likely. As the countries are more inflamed, fundamentalism, nationalism, and ultimately authoritarianism, will be MORE tolerated.

God, what a mess these ass holes in office have created. God save us all, and I say that as one that is more or less, an athiest.

[foreigncorrespondent]

150. While...

...I don't condone the torture that is happening over there I will say in her defence, why is she evil? Because she is actually standing up for the women who have put up with being oppressed by men all their lives?

This woman is ignorant, but that ignorance doesn't make her evil.

[TahitiNut]

155. "Good" people do "evil" things.

Authoritarianism virtually guarantees this.

[Snoggera]

159. How could her actions possibly be described by a sane

rational person as:

"Because she is actually standing up for the women who have put up with being oppressed by men all their lives?"

That is an incredibly inane, biased, and foolish statement. Standing up for the women who have been oppressed? How, exactly, is this criminal act a way to stand up for oppressed women?

[Onlooker]

152. She's just a typical Freeper

I'm sure Freepers are fantasizing about her even as I write this.

[fishnfla]

157. I think it should be mentioned that there were 2 other women involved

they are named in Sy Hersch's Newsday article.

[fishnfla]

158. "transferred to Fort Bragg, NC after becoming pregnant" HOLY SHIT!

OMFG!

[LandOLincoln]

166. Reading all these posts, white-hot with rage and

hatred and mania for revenge, I have to ask you all--exactly how are any of you better than she is? Better than the Freepers?

Sure, humiliate her, lock her up, throw away the key. Dehumanize her just as she and her cohorts dehumanized the Iraqi prisoners. Perpetuate the cycle of hatred and revenge. That's what this sick, Puritan culture of ours is all about, isn't it?

PUNISHMENT, PUNISHMENT, PUNISHMENT. No chance for change, for growth, for any kind of redemption.

She's defective. Just throw her away.

********
I have some ideas about how this can be fixed, but right now I'm going to fix myself.

It's an ungodly beautiful day here in New Mexico, and I'm going to get out in it. Gonna saddle up, take a long, long ride along the river.

Also going to be doing some thinking about the once-great culture a couple of hundred miles to the west of me, and how they used to handle their "criminals"--that was mostly before they got civilized, of course.

To the Navajo, such persons were sick, and they defined "sick" as being out of harmony with the world and themselves. Their healers have ceremonies to restore such people to a state of harmony.

Seems to me we could use more of that kind of thinking, and a lot less of the knee-jerk Puritan mode. Que no, mis amigos/as?

[ScreamingMeemie]

167. She's a jerk in my book.

I bet Mom and Dad are proud. But it's not for me to judge, someone else will. :hi:

[kdmorris]

169. One of the things that really

makes me sick is this one line in the New Yorker article, seen here:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

"A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant."

This woman is about to become a mother now. How would you look your child in the eye after committing this sort of evil act? And how do you teach your child about empathy, decency, and respect for other human beings when you have no problem taking a whole group of them and de-humanizing them like this?

It's incomprehensible.