Mall rule cracks down on teens

[PfcHammer]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kr/20040428/lo_krdetroit/mallrulecracksdownonteens

Mall rule cracks down on teens
2 hours, 20 minutes ago

BY NIRAJ WARIKOO, FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Tired of teenagers who intimidate other shoppers, a major mall in metro Detroit is clamping down with a curfew that aims to keep unruly kids out and eager consumers in.

Fairlane Town Center in Dearborn, the second-largest mall in Michigan, plans to prohibit all patrons ages 17 and younger from entering its center after 5 p.m. daily unless they're accompanied by an adult 21 or older. The ban goes into effect June 1 and is part of a nationwide trend of curfews for kids at shopping malls.

<snip>

[kiahzero]

1. No civil rights issue, just stupidity

Who do they think the "eager consumers" are?

[Bill McBlueState]

2. why is anyone "intimidated" by teenagers?

I just ignore them, the way I try to ignore everyone else when I have to go to the mall.

[Commendatori]

3. No offense, but are you 87 years old?

My grandmother was last year when she was punched in the face by a teen who then stole her purse, and this took place inside a mall in Delaware. I have to assume Detroit might be worse.

Sure, in most cases this new rule is ridiculous, but for every dozen or so people like you and me, there are people who are afraid of teens, especially in gangs. Some teens are nig enough to get scouted by colleges or even go directly into pro sports.

[Bill McBlueState]

6. I'm sorry about your grandmother

But I assume there are laws against punching people in the face and stealing their purses in Delaware. Barring anyone 17 and younger from entering a mall after 5:00 isn't going to solve that problem.

Someone could still be assaulted by a 14-year-old at 3:00, or by an 18-year-old at 6:30.

The real question is, what's wrong with the support systems for teens (schools, parents, community groups) that they have to be wandering around in the mall all the time? Malls are depressing.

[outinforce]

8. Why Should the Mall Have to Play

Why should a Mall have to play parent to kids?

If the "support systems" for teens have failed -- meaning, primarily, that these kids' parents are failing to be good parents -- then why should a mall have to shoulder that responsibility?

Why should a Mall have to allow unruly kids to come in/

Why should a Mall, having been compelled -- because the "support systems" for these kids have failed -- to allow these kids in, then have to deal with all the things parents usually have to deal with -- discipline, and instruction on how to behave around other people, instruction on not punching old women?

Those are parental responsibilities.

They are NOT the responsibilities of Malls.

A Mall ought to be able, it seems to me, to tell kids that if they can't beahve themselves, then they will all be banned -- unless accompanied by a responsible adult who will exercise supervision.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. it fits what they learn in school, I guess

So someone who's 17 and can conduct himself like an adult in the mall could be banned because a handful of other teenagers act like delinquents. Meanwhile, someone who's 18 gets a free pass to enter, regardless of what he might actually do once inside.

That goes along nicely with the message most 17 year olds get in school, that people in authority are free to shit on you to get their power fix.

The reasonable solution, one that exists almost anywhere you go, is: here's a list of things you're not allowed to do. If you do one of those things, no more mall for you. The rules, naturally, apply to everyone regardless of age.

But you're right, a place of business can do whatever it wants. People can shop, eat, and watch movies elsewhere if they don't like it.

[outinforce]

13. We Don't Really Do That In Other Areas of Life

"So someone who's 17 and can conduct himself like an adult in the mall could be banned because a handful of other teenagers act like delinquents. ...The reasonable solution, one that exists almost anywhere you go, is: here's a list of things you're not allowed to do. If you do one of those things, no more mall for you. The rules, naturally, apply to everyone regardless of age."

I hear what you are saying, but I also know that there are other areas of life where age makes a big difference.

Driving, for instance.

I am certain that there are many, many, many children under the age of 16 or 17 who would be completely responsible drivers. But no one, in most states, is able to get a driver's license until he or she reaches the age of 16 or 17.

Does that mean that the "people in authority" have gotten "their power fix" by defecating on kids who are 14 or 15?

Would you suggest, that in the case of driving, or purchasing alcohol, or purchasing tobacco products, that we simply post signs saying, "Here is how adults behave. If you behave as an adult does, then we will not revoke your privilege to drive, purchase alcohol, or purchase tobacco. When you drive, purchase alcohol, or purchase tobacco, just be certain that you act responsibly, and all will be fine"?

The Mall in question has not even taken the extreme step of banning all teens -- it has only said that at certain times, people under a certain age must be accompanied by a responsible adult.

That seems quite reasonable to me.

If it bothers someone else, they are certainly free to take their business elsewhere.

That's one of the beauties of life in the USA.

[SemperEadem]

18. All they need to do is arrest the teen

impose a crippling fine on their parents if found guilty of the offense. Money usually is the only way to force negligent parents to be parents. And I'm sick of the whiny excuse "I can't do anything with them..." Why not? Because you chose to be a friend to them instead of a parent and now, they don't respect your authority?

Gee--I raised a child who is 20 yrs of age now, and she didn't hang out and commmit crimes at the mall. If I can do it (as a single parent) anyone can. There is no excuse except trifling laziness.

[Commendatori]

10. I should have phrased this differently

What I was getting at, poorly written as it was, is that the mall probably sees this new rule as the lesser of two evils.

[Karenina]

12. "Some teens are nig enough

to get scouted by colleges or even go directly into pro sports."

Wie bitte?

[democracyindanger]

19. I agree. WTF?

[outinforce]

21. I bet he mis-typed a word.

My guess is that he meant to say "big enough".

But that's just a guess.

[PfcHammer]

26. b & n are neighbors on the keyboard

[Catherine Vincent]

44. I'm glad I saw your explanation because I was about to

act a fool up in here! LOL!

[BiggJawn]

14. So if it had been a 25-y-o outside the 7-11?

You'd support rules banning 25-y-o's from going to the Kwicky Mart?
Sorry about your grandmother, but last time I checked, there are already laws against punching grandmothers in the face and stealing their purses.

Look at you average mall and what kind of stores do they have? Gap, Old Navy, A&F, Hot Topic, the kind of places the very customers they're banning shop.

What's going on is the elderly "Mall Walkers" (who don't spend any money, but have no problem tresspassing like they own the place) are "scared" of the teens. And the suck-ass management, ever quick to avoid alienating any group they THINK might spend money in their temples of greed, cave in. Never mind that the old pharts actually spend less than the teens, they LOOK like they have money...

[outinforce]

20. Wow. Not Too Much Agism Here

"elderly" mall walkers who "don't spend any money" and who "tresspass like they own the place"

Are they the "old pharts" you're talking about, or are your ageist views more inclusive?

I don't know how old you are, BiggJawn, but as a person who is in my early 50's, I take strong exception to the way you portray people of a certain age.

[BiggJawn]

28. What's "Agiest"?

Sorry you're offended, but since I'm in my late 40's and close to "official Old-Phart-ism" myself, I don't seem to have the problem with it you do.

Your complaint is noted. Do I care? Not really. Does it bother me that you wanna stick a "label" on ME like you accuse ME of doing to old people (oh, dear, another non-PC "ism")? Yeah, it does, but I'll get over it.

Oh, BTW, why no chop-busting of those who call the young ones "Punks"?

Ageism is Ageism, isn't it?

Hmmmm?

[outinforce]

30. I Can See From Your Post

I can see from your post that when when you say to me, "Your complaint is noted. Do I care? Not really.", you really, really mean it.

I am curious, though. You mention something called "official Old-Phart-Ism".

When does that occur?

And, when it does occur, do "those people" somehow forfeit their right to dignity and respect?

Oh, and just to make sure that I meet your requirement for total consistency:

Please, anyone who calls young one "punks", consider your chops hereby busted.

Does this meet your requirements?

[BiggJawn]

51. I'm not re-fighting the "PC Wars" again

Damn right I "really, really mean it". Why would I say it if I didn't mean it? I used to engage in this "PC-Speak" bullshit when I first joined this board, but no more. M-kay?

When I see the buzz words "dignity and respect", My bullshit detector goes off. Especially when combined with a mini-rant about me labeling some group, then the complaintant goes on and applies the LABEL "Ageist" (or WHATEVER "-ist" you wanna peel and stick)to ME.

I don't give a flying rat's ass whether you strive to meet some "requirement" you seem to think I have or not. I was only pointing out that while you were climbing my frame for calling "The Elderly" "Old Pharts", there were posts calling the young "Punks".

You know, If your life is so ordered that you can waste time engaging in what someone of my aquaintance would call "splitting diddly-damn dipthongs in the Greek", fine, I'm happy for you. Mine is not so ordered.

Frankly, I can think of better uses for our energies besides hijacking somebody else's thread with a discussion on "Non-'ist' speech"...

I think what I'm REALLY trying to say here is that you don't KNOW me well enough to apply any bullshit labels like "Ageist" (or sexist, or racist, or WHATEVER) to me.

[outinforce]

52. You Really Are Serious!

My posts do not bother you in the least. I can tell that.

You don't give a -- what's the term? -- flying rat's ass about what I think.

If you did, I guess you'd be posting all sorts of replies to my posts.

But, of course, you aren't doing that.

You are using your energies in better ways.

[bearfartinthewoods]

41. quickie marts around here do not allow kids to hang in the parking lot

also, no backpacks in the store and no more than two kids in the store at a time.

[FireHeart]

25. My Mom

was knocked down at a mall in Mentor, Ohio some years ago. Off an escalator and onto the floor. Some teen screaming "Heavy Metal Rules" did it, but escaped security by hiding in a pack of other teens.

I don't know. I think I support the rule. A broken hip in an elderly lady is a serious thing...

[truthspeaker]

4. Mall of American has had a similar policy for years.

Shoplifting, loitering, loud noise, littering.

[theboss]

5. I love being 30

And complaining about the young punks.

I sometimes go to the local mall on my lunch hour and always wonder why no one appears to go to school in this town.

[slackmaster]

7. It's even better being 46

A lot of 30-year-olds look like young punks to me. Especially the Caucasian males with baseball caps turned sideways.

:evilgrin:

[progressivebydesign]

24. I do laugh at the sideways hats..

.. I guess they aren't old enough to know that it was always a costume trick of Hollywood to portray an incredibly stupid person. Anyone over 18 with a baseball cap worn in any direction but bill-first, looks.. well.. dorky.

[Loonman]

9. Sounds reasonable

The mall is not in business to babysit punk kids.

[Christ was Socialist]

15. Dearborn has the largest muslim population in the USA

I'm thinking there is something else to this ban. There has to be, because teens are eager consumers.

[progressivebydesign]

22. No.. I don't think it's sinister.

My husband and I drove up to check out a mall around 30 miles from us. We are not lightweights at all.. but we never even got into the mall. There were groups of gang-attired teens oustide each entrance... inimidating? You bet. They stand near the entrances in large groups with a "I dare you to walk through us" stare when you approach. The mall security guards were armed... and there were concrete barricades at each entrance, in case someone felt like trying to drive through the plate glass doors. Parents who are incapable of running their own lives, are totally incapable and uninterested in monitoring, caring for, or disciplining their children. Malls have become the place for parents to drop off their kids.. or for kids to hang around unsupervised. It's like a privately owned downtown.. and the owners have a right to make the rules. What the malls should do, is to make the mall more attractive to families, etc... through non-police actions like curfews which seem harsh. An atmsosphere of familial diversity would do more than curfews... Also, playing really loud classical music or anything by Jule Andrews or Andy Williams should solve some of those problems.

[Carolina]

31. no they're doing it here in SC

too but I daresay at a local mall that is frequented predominantly by Black kids.

As a woman over 50, I must admit I'm glad. Flame me all you want but groups of young men (black, white or whatever) tend to develop a pack mentality that can be threatening and intimidating. I have seen them swarm the walking areas in a manner that dares anyone to get in their way.

Sorry, but too many aggressive (ain't that a euphemism) video games, too much in your face reality TV and the current militaristic rage that speaks in terms of kicking ass ... makes for dangerous youth.

My son is 20 and in college, and even he doesn't like to go to the mall with all "the high school thugs" who simply hang out there ...

[noonwitch]

16. This is not new at Fairlane

This has been their rule for sometime-no kids during school hours without an adult. They had a serious problem with gang kids hanging out there a few years back and needed to do something about it.

What they really need to do is to teach their security guards how to take someone down without choking them to death.

[pezcore64]

17. well

I do understand why they have put a curfew, tho 5PM seems a bit harsh.

Kids do effect business, whether it be in a good or bad way. I know when I was a bit younger(17, 23 now) and worked at a movie theater, are biggest complaint was all the young kids who just stood infront of the theater and talked versus actually seeing a movie.

While you can argue this gives kids a place to hang and something to do, I can guarentee nothing good was coming from it. Most of them just talked about what they were doing later and how to go about organising everyone to be at what they were doing later. Usually drinking, drugs, and some sex. Not to mention the ones who attempted to do all three right there infront of the business. While I still have mixed feelings about what I did, I still think it was the right decision. I went before the GM and told him that customers were complaining alot about it and something probably needed to be done. I successfully got the kids to move away from the store front even tho I did loose my job over it. My manager loved the kids and even partied with them occasionally. not very fitting of a 40 year old mother of two, let alone a manager of a business.

So like I say, I can understand why theyve put a curfew, I just think that 5PM is probably a bit to extreme. Maybe a later time would be more appropriate.
I dont have a local mall here, so what time do whole malls generally close their doors anyway?

[SemperEadem]

23. that's arse-backwards

most elderly folks are off the streets and at home by sundown, so the numbers of them at the mall after 5pm dwindles exponentially.

Usually, they're out in the daytime, so why have them and the source of their "aggravation" in the same place at the same time? They should instead say "People age 65+ cannot be in the mall after 5pm without another younger adult, and people under the age of 18 cannot be in the mall without adult supervision before 5pm". That makes much more sense.

But to alienate the group of consumers that spends the most disposable income(teens) is ass-backwards and reactionary.

That rule will change when the merchants can't move their inventory.

[outinforce]

35. You Would Really Ban Over-65's

based upon your assumption that most elderly folks are off the streets and home by sundown?

Is this something you know to be a fact, or is it something you assume about all or most "elderly" folks -- that "they" (or perhaps it is "we") sit at home at night, wrapped in a warm afghan, sipping herb tea and listening to the victrola.

But even so, you would, I take it, ban 65's and over from the malls during daylight hours on Saturdays and Sundays as well?

[1gobluedem]

27. I am of two minds about this

On one hand, I do find this prohibitive and not fair to kids who go to the mall to shop, go to the movies, etc. not to just hang around in bunches.

On the other hand, I have a disability. I can't move very fast and sometimes I need to use a cane. I have felt very vulnerable when approached by a bunch of teenagers who are whispering and nudging each other and have heard them make cracks. Sometimes they turn around and follow me and I'll go into a store until they're gone. I shouldn't have to feel that way when I'm just trying to do some errands. There has to be a happy medium.

[DrWeird]

29. How about they ban blacks after 5 pm as well.

Unless, of course, they are accompanied by a white person.

After all, they intimidate old people.

[outinforce]

32. What A Racist Suggestion!

Blacks intimidate old people?

What are you talking about?!?!

Your suggestion is based upon an assumption that is not only false, but also racist.

And your suggestion is, frankly, disgusting.

[DrWeird]

33. No offense, but are you 114 years old?

My grandmother was last year when she was punched in the face by a black who then stole her purse, and this took place inside a mall in New Jersey. I have to assume Detroit might be worse.

Sure, in most cases this new rule is ridiculous, but for every dozen or so people like you and me, there are people who are afraid of blacks, especially in gangs. Some blacks are nig enough to get scouted by colleges or even go directly into pro sports.

[outinforce]

36. It Appears That You Have Mistaken Me

for another poster to this thread.

Might I suggest that if you have an issue with what someone else has posted, that you reply to that person, and not to me.

And what do YOU mean when YOU say that "Some blacks are nig enough to get scouted by colleges or even go directly into pro sports."?

[TeeYiYi]

37. outinforce . . .

. . . if you had read this thread in its entirety, you would understand DrWeird's humor and sarcasm.

He's actually pretty funny, and . . . he's making a point.

TYY

[outinforce]

42. Thanks for your comment

And just so you know --

Before posting my comment to DrWeird, I did re-read the entire thread.

I still think his post is offensive and totally unfunny.

[TeeYiYi]

48. I don't think he meant to be racist . . .

. . . but I could be wrong. :shrug:

TYY

[outinforce]

49. Perhaps --

But I still fin dit offensive that anyone would think that posting such a thing would possibly be considered acceptable.

But, to each his/her own.

[DrWeird]

40. I bet he mis-typed a word.

My guess is that he meant to say "black enough".

But that's just a guess.

[outinforce]

43. This "he" that you speak of...

who is it, exactly?

You?

[DrWeird]

45. No not at all.

What ever gave you that idea?

[outinforce]

47. OK. If Not

If not you, then who?

Who, exactly, is this "he" that you suggest meant to type something a bit on the racist side?

[DrWeird]

50. OK. If Not

If not you, then who?


Who, exactly, is this "he" that you suggest meant to type something a bit on the ageist side?

[outinforce]

53. OK.

The "he" of whom "I" spoke is the "who" of whom "I" think "you" were speaking when "she" mentioned to "us" that there are "some" who think that "they" have shit that does "not" stink.

Clearer now?

[DrWeird]

59. Oh, you're no fun anymore.

[PfcHammer]

34. Condi's husband could let her in. n/t

[Carolina]

38. As a black woman and mother

of a male child, I have always taught my son and his friends to avoid certain dress and behavior. Point: if you look like a thug, you'll be perceived as one and treated accordingly. Doo rags, baggy pants, untied shoes/boots, heavy and oversized clothes that are inappropriate for the weather, etc. look bad, invite suspicion and draw police attention And I have always been afraid of police and jail particularly for my husband and son. So I taught son that garb of ghetto-jail chic variety was/is stupid and I monitored his movements like a troll at the bridge.

Fortunately I'm over the hump of those difficult years (13-17); he's 20, more sensible and less inclined to be peer driven.

But I don't see it as a racial issue. Really, ya ever see some young white males in herds?? Scary critters, too. As I said in a previous post: black, white, whatever ... packs of young males aimlessly strolling the mall are just plain scary.

[TeeYiYi]

46. I'm glad you said that . . .

. . . I don't like loiterers in packs, I don't care what flavor or hue they come in. They're all equally threatening.

Besides, if you've got a gaggle of your cohorts with you at the mall, you're probably not really shopping. And if you're not shopping, you need to move along.

Malls are for shopping, not babysitting.

TYY

[Pithlet]

54. Good points.

Maybe the compromise would be to ban large groups that are just hanging around, whatever the age.

[TheSuaveOne]

39. The inside scoop...

I used to work for the developer of that property, (I now work for their direct competitor), the primary reason they have placed that rule into place is because of the gang activity in the mall. There have been numerous shootings and muggings there and the property manager has decided that they would rather keep these activities out, thus, keep those most likely involved in it to be banned from 5 pm on.

To tell you the truth, that age category is not as big a client as other age groups, so having this rule put into place is not going to hurt the retailers as much as you might think.

On a side note, did you know that this property is the first 2 story mall will multi-level entry points in the country? It was developed to allow the landlord to charge first level rent to second level tenant's because depending on where the customers parked, that store may be on the level the customer enters the mall...la

[Pithlet]

55. That mall used to be THE place to shop.

I haven't been there in years, though. It seeemed so huge at the time, back before the age of mega-malls.

[MAlibdem]

56. The worst thing I've done in a mall...

(I'm 17)

...Is go into Hot Topic (or something like that, that new sort of grungy store) and announce "This store's supposed to be anti-corporate, but it's the fastest growing corporation on the NYSE"

That may not have been true (tho my friend says it is), but the patrons were appalled and the manager was POed.

Good times...

That and the "de-bra-ing" of manequins in victoria's secret. (JK, always wanted to tho...)

[Blue Gardener]

57. I've been to that mall

I was in Dearborn on business and decided to do a little shopping in the evening with a fellow traveler. I vowed not to return to that mall my next trip there because it made me feel very uncomfortable. Something needed to be done. Note: that is the only mall I have ever been in where I didn't feel comfortable, and I've been to a lot of malls.

[rucky]

58. This Mall Has Been Rated "R"

children under 17 not permitted without an adult.

does that mean we can show our boobies at the mall after 5pm?

[American Renaissance]

60. Polka Music!

The place where I work is near an indoor skateboard park and a crappy mall, we were having alot of problems with loitering teens.

One day we were sitting in room overlooking the parking lot with the TV on, there were like 15 kids hanging around with their cars, playing rap music that was shaking the earth. As we sat their lamenting our situation there was one of those crappy Polygram commercials for a Polka Music album.

And it dawned on us, for whatever reason, our building has an outdoor speaker system, I guess it was used for auctions or something in the past. So we ordered the $8.99 best of polka album and whenever the punks are in our parking lot, we crank it up.

They are usually gone in two minutes flat, some of the near by businesses call the police with noise complaints, but when we tell the police why we are doing it they are usually very understanding.