If the unthinkable happens...

[chicagojoe]

...and BushCorp. somehow steals the election again, do we have any options, outside of impeachment or the "un-speakable", for removing him from office ???

[jjmalonejr]

1. No

That's why we can't afford to lose.

Fight hard for Kerry. The future of this country is at stake.

[Earth_First]

2. REVOLUTION!

BURN THE STATE!

[drumwolf]

3. This is why we need a Plan B, and a long-term plan as well

Plan B being the recapture of the Senate, which I've heard is actually within our reach.

The long-term plan being to invest in our own think tanks, foundations, media organizations, etc., and build up our base the same way the Right did in the decades before emerging to dominate our government the way they do today.

[Kanary]

7. That long-term plan is *very* important

regardless of *who* wins in November.

We're drifting, and it's done immense harm.

Kanary

[chicagojoe]

9. Here in Illinois, we're on the verge of helping to make that happen.

We now have 1 Dem. Senator,and a good one at that, and in November it's practically a lock that we will vote in another.

[liberalhistorian]

20. I'm afraid we don't have time to wait

for the results of the long-term plan, there's no time anymore. Ramsey Clark made that point in his speech at the October march and rally in D.C. He said we've got too much to do, and we don't have much time anymore to do it in.

[bacchant]

4. I'm going on a four year bender

[sallyseven]

6. Wonder how Italy

or Portugal will be to live out the destruction of the US as we know it.

[bacchant]

8. Man...

was in Italy in September, next time I go back I'm staying.

[Skittles]

5. not unless the American people fight back

and it appears they care who will be the next Apprentice or Idol than who will be our next president.

[NewHampshireDem]

10. My "Plan B"

Involves either New Zealand or Canada or maybe even Latvia or Germany. My father was born in Germany and both of his parents are Latvian, so I figure I could qualify for citizenship in either of them. I prefer an English speaking country, but they all seem to be rather difficult to get into.

[Earth_First]

11. Au Revoir...

Just make sure when we fix things, you stay put in your overseas "safe" haven.

[jjmalonejr]

13. I'm with you, Earth_First

All these people talking about leaving is alarming.

The only serious consideration my wife and I ever give to leaving is in the event her son (my stepson) needs to be shielded from the draft.

It would take some REALLY serious Nazi shit to make me leave this country. I know that people will chime in and compare America today to Nazi Germany and Bush to Hitler. Yes, there are parallels, but it's not the same thing at all.

The difference is, we can turn this country around if we have the will to do it. Millions of free-thinking Germans of conscience didn't have the option.

[Earth_First]

14. I like to call them idle threats...

I've noticed that a majority of these threats to leave the country in the face of adversity, when we have a duty to create solutions to the problem, are coming from younger, angry youth. Rightly so, to be angry, upset, and frustrated with this country, however harness that anger and agression towards creating solutions to the problems. Leaving this country, you might as well kick me in the groin and say good luck.

I agree with you. jj. The only instance that I would suggest a member of my family leave the country is in defiance of the draft.

[jjmalonejr]

17. Young people are disconnected from Democracy.

TV, school, their parents are their peers are their strongest influences. If none of these influences nurtures a desire to become informed and get involved in the system that determines the future of their country, then what's the result?

Generation X has been painted as largely apathetic. That didn't just happen all by itself. The generations before helped create them.

[m-jean03]

26. I'm not apathetic

If I want to save my ass by avoiding the draft. Just a yellow belly & that's OK with me

[liberalhistorian]

21. Actually, I've studied that era at length,

and millions of German people of conscience most certainly DID have that option, they just blinded themselves just like most Americans are doing today. There was a window of time in which they could have acted where it would have made a tremendous difference AND THEY DIDN'T! And we are at that same kind of window of opportunity now, and we're just not using it and we're running out of time to do so.

We are already seeing some "serious Nazi shit", it's just not directed at the mainstream yet. It's being directed toward Muslims and Arab-Americans, dissenters, anti-war protestors, those critical of the government, minorities, etc. And that's how it all started in Germany, as well, what was happening wasn't happening to the mainstream so they didn't give a shit until it was too late. And even when they did give a shit, too many others had been brainwashed against those who were being discriminated against. I have a friend whose Arab husband is in jail, has been for over two years now, with no evidence against him, no charges brought against him, the whole ball of wax. Yet nobody cares because he's one of "those people", so it's off the radar; that is happening far more than you'd like to think. Same with anti-war people, and those who criticize the good 'ol government. "First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a Jew, etc., etc.................

[DAGDA56]

24. I can't blame the Germans who didn't get out...

...Nazi Germany was truely unprecidented...they had no Pre-Nazi Nazis to point to as a reference point. No Berliner in 1935 could imagine the way his city would look just 10 years later. That's what bothers me most about the 2004 version of the USA; unprecidented things are happening.

[2Design]

22. Hilters germany was a gradual build up.....if you didn't get out early you

couldn't get out. Those who saw the writing on the wall got out early. They escape the camps.

Read the last chapters of The Coming of the Third Reich
by Richard J. Evans and you will see the christian right and the catholics were part of getting hilter into a democratic elected position while building up hate and bigotry...

Punishing those they believe were part of the countries demise and poverty. From there the hatred grew to other groups.

Hilters germany did not happen over night as many want to believe. It was a gradually erosion. Like we have going on here. Patriot ACt. Guantonmo, locked up people without access to lawyers, search without warrent, expounging of information, blocking information, controlling the media, etc.

[bacchant]

23. For some of us it's no longer just about who's in the White House

It's a cultural issue as well. I hate to be a defeatist, but I'm not quite sure what we're aiming to fix. Our present form of government is broken and an obstacle to creating lasting, meaningful, change. I don't think the two party pendulum keeps us in balance, I think it keeps us, and the rest of the world, stuck in an endless, bloody, ideological tug O war. Every time progressives make a little progress the pig-people come back and try to fuck it all up. Apparently Ben Franklin saw all this coming, but In lieu of a better alternative endorsed a system he predicted would one day be totally corrupted by oligarchs. I'm down with fighting to change our government, but what do we do about my fat, stupid, burger inhaling, SUV driving, hyper-religious neighbors?

[Wapsie B]

12. My question would be

how close are we to taking either the House or the Senate?

[Sperk]

15. My "gut" tells me that if * steals the election....

he will be ousted by the people within the first two years. He'll wish he went back to Texas.

[shimmergal]

16. Yes. I can think of two good Plan Bs.

We can be working on them this year, along with working for Kerry's election.

1. Getting a democratic majority in the Senate. As somebody else pointed out, this is actually within reach. If you can give campaign contributions, send some to a Dem. senatorial candidate who actually has a good chance, but isn't a shoo-in. Here in Nevada, it looks like Harry Reid has no serious challengers (unlike the last time he ran) and he was very instrumental in 2001 in Jeffords' switch to Independent status. The same thing could happen with another Repub. moderate or two if Bushie boy gets re-elected.

2. Plan/plot for a replay of the Agnew-Nixon scenario. Remember, Nixon got re-elected too, and his and Agnew's political sins weren't nearly as grievous as the current gang's. But we should aim for Cheney first--the guy's got to be swimming in hidden scandals, some of which may well fit the definition of treason. If he's impeached or resigns, push for a decent Republican to take his place as VP.
My choice would be McCain, but even Hastert would probably be better than what we have now.
Then we can turn attention to the Chimp. Look into _his_ misdeeds. Or maybe it wouldn't even take that. Without a "big daddy" puppeteer, he might just freak out and save all the trouble of having to prove "high crimes and misdemeanors."
What can be done now toward this scenario--research. The more digging into this admin's manipulations, the better. And perhaps if somebody gets close enough to provable-in-court stuff, some of the other figures in the * Admin. might be persuaded to bale out and turn, providing more evidence.

3. There are other options, but I haven't thought them through so well, and some might not bear the light of day in a public forum anyway.

[Ready4Change]

18. Depends

If he clearly gets the votes and wins, then it's a matter of watching his actions, and remembering what has already been done. As said above, odds are he won't complete the first term due to impeachment. He's on the verge of being impeached before the next election as it is.

However, if the election finish resembles 2000 all bets are off.

[liberalhistorian]

19. Yeah, my options include

getting the hell out of this country, to Canada, England, New Zealand, Tanzania, I don't fucking care. I will NOT live in a country whose citizens actually vote for the likes of him after everything he's done and everything that's happened, and I don't want to be around when the inevitable horrendous attack happens because everyone in the world hates him and hates us because of him.

I've been fighting since Raygun was first elected when I was in high school, and I'm TIRED!!!! TIRED of stupid Americans who care more about the voting irregularities of American Idol, and the fact that it was preempted by that ridiculous press conference, than they do about voting rights and what the president select is doing to the country. TIRED of stupid Americans who still support Shrub even after seeing that ridiculous press conference, and even after knowing all that they know about him, including the fact that he sent hundreds of soldiers to their deaths for a fucking LIE!!!!

And I have a teenage son, I will NOT see him used as cannon fodder for their perpetual, imperialistic wars.

[m-jean03]

27. Thanks liberalhistorian

Good defense of the expat option.:pals:

[jus_the_facts]

25. the unthinkable has already happened....yet NOTHING was done......

....it WILL happen again this year too....and I seriously doubt anything CAN be done about it now....their plans have worked like a charm...all the things they've been allowed to get away with have become insurmountable....the last 4 years PROVE it beyond any shadow of any doubt....just get ready to have civil war for that'll be the only alternative and there isn't enough people even here at DU who'll even stop BUYIN' their beloved CABLE TELEVISION....much less actually FIGHT FOR THEIR COUNTRY!

The TRUTH and the REALITY is....THEY WIN WITH THEIR MONEY AND THEIR GREED...and even when we DO win we continue to LOSE...the Clinton years PROVED it...once and for all! :evilfrown:

[Moderator]

28. Locking.......

From the rules:

Please do not post messages or jokes that could be construed as advocating harm or death to the president, or that could be construed as advocating violent overthrow of the government of the United States. The Secret Service is not known for its sense of humor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#disruption



DU Moderator