Need your informed critique of this scenario.

[Dover]

A MIHOP theory. Feel free to present known facts to challenge it, but spare me the argument that MIHOP is silly, or a tin foiler's wet dream, etc. I assume plenty of you feel that way so no need to repeat it here. But please DO present any known facts that would challenge this scenario.

__________

Let's assume, for just a minute, that the technology for remote controlled planes like the ones reported in this article
( http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA1BETR7TD.html )
were available to a select group in our military/intelligence agency.
That's not a big stretch. The tough part is acknowledging that some in our government would go to these extremes to jumpstart an unpopular strategic military action.

What if the hijackers were allowed (or even invited) to take the flight training. Isn't there some evidence of a few of the hijackers having contact with a couple of our intelligence people in Florida and another in California (the one that shared the apartment)?

Maybe the training was "provided" in order to create a story trail that would be told to the public. And the hijackers thought they WOULD be flying the planes as well...and may or may not have planned on it being a suicide mission.

But once the hijackers took control of the plane perhaps they discovered that THEY were not really the ones manning the controls.


And aren't several minutes missing from the flight tapes that were recovered from the downed planes? And could that be why one of the planes that might have been recovered by the passengers who fought back was shot down?


This is my best MIHOP theory.

[Guaranteed]

1. MIHOP, in my mind, is almost entirely out of the question.

I don't take it seriously at all. It's good that you're looking into it, because these things just need to be looked into, in general, but it's basically a joke.

I'm open to LIHOP in some form because Bushco is so close with the Saudis, but it has not been proved to me in any sense.

[Dover]

2. Well, did you see the document that was circulating a while back

that had been declassified that showed a similar sort of plan (for attacking ourselves but making it look like the enemy did it) that had been prepared for use in Cuba back in the 60's I think? They didn't use it, but it shows how they think.

So why is MIHOP a joke or out of the question? And how is LIHOP that much different? And is there something about my scenario that doesn't make any sense, or is it just the possibility of us attacking ourselves that seems so impossible?

[hang a left]

16. THat would have been Operation Northwoods.

[LunaC]

3. Can you offer a plausible explanation for this sequence of events?

So far, nobody has been able to do so.......

In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


Meanwhile, the U.S. Embassy in the UAE received a call that Bin Laden supporters were in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives. It was rumored that Bin Laden was interested in hijacking U.S. aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf


In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html


In September 2001 the "catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked with U.S. aircraft. Immediately, the finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911 hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160


In October 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War On Terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting



To put this in its proper context, please see "The Whispering Campaign" link below.

[Dover]

4. Well................

First answer me this. Do you think that Americans and the citizens of those countries with interests in the Pipeline who were at that meeting would have supported the attack on Afghanistan without provocation?

[LunaC]

9. I'm firmly in the MIHOP camp

but I'm hoping BullGooseLoony will consider the evidence a bit more closely before automatically dismissing LIHOP/MIHOP as just plain silliness.

From my perspective, the PNAC WH needed to hand the 'Merikun public Something Big to justify the bombing of Afghanistan and initiate the "war on terror" so they created a handy-dandy 911 excuse tailor-made for their purposes.

[Dover]

10. Yeah. There might have been TWO plans operating simultaneously

The more limited one that focused on Afghanistan that most in our government were in on (like Powell) along with a few other countries with interests there, and the more extensive PNAC plan.

Or it's possible that the PNAC had company from other quarters in the U.S. government and corporations who might have been in agreement with a larger plan and needed foreign support for a long term "terror war"...which only they knew would include Iraq (among others weak countries).

In other words, they may have been trying not only to convince the American people but the world at large that we needed this prolonged battle on "terrorism", and pulled one over on France, Germany, etc. by switching the battle midstream to Iraq. America may have wanted Iraq all along, strategically and in terms of its resources and was trying to get a foothold in there WITH the support of others, by using the terrorism argument. If so, I think it all became very transparent.

[hang a left]

17. Not without a "Pearl Harbor" type of event.

n/t

[Guaranteed]

23. It's really tough to argue with speculation.

But, in the case that these things are true, there's nothing that says it can't be just a coincidence. Or maybe bin Laden heard about these plans beforehand and decided to hit us first.

I don't know. But I do know that there is no evidence there that any US official actively planned a terrorist attack on our own country.

By the way, this whole thing doesn't jive with the fact that Bushco was obsessed with Iraq at that time, and wanted to invade them, not Afghanistan.

[gandalf]

6. "but spare me the argument that MIHOP is silly"

As I understood the thread, you were invited to challenge the scenario with facts.

Has the official version of 9/11 been proved to you? If yes, how?

[gandalf]

5. Thats partly my working hypothesis

I don't know if the planes were really remote controlled, and if the four planes really did what they supposedly did. But I think that the Florida guys were set up to be part of an overall carefully crafted 9/11 legend seems plausible.

Much of the really extensive research of Chaim Kupferberg (www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP310A.html) seem to support this idea, as well as the results of Hopsicker's work.

[Dover]

7. Thanks. Wasn't aware of this work.

Guess I need to do some reading.

[gandalf]

8. This article is really long

and I'm not quite finished myself, but I think it's worth reading.

[Solon]

11. I doubt the MIHOP for one reason

Whether it is remote control, or missles, or anything else of that sort, then it would be MUCH harder to keep a secret. Not to mention that technology would have to be manufactured and installed, at commercial airports, a near impossibility in my book. Besides that stuff can be expensive, its much cheaper to deliberately step back and let the crime take place. A crime of neglegence is much harder to prove, and has so many angles in "intelligence failures" that you could explain it away easily. I'm open to LIHOP not MIHOP, why risk it?

[gandalf]

12. So you imply that there really were terrorists

who had planned an attack anyway.

[Dover]

13. Okay. That's a good argument. I don't know enough about the

remote technology to gauge how difficult or involved that would be, and how many people they would have needed in the right places to pull it off. But we had several weird plane crashes besides 9/11 that have been shrouded a bit in mystery, so keep that in mind.

I do think it still leaves alot of questions unanswered about intelligence agents contact with some of the hijackers though, and the other things I mentioned in my scenario.

[Guaranteed]

24. The MIHOP theory, as does LIHOP, centers around

Bushco's connections with the Saudis...in order for it to have happened, Bushco would have had to have made some kind of a deal with the Saudis wherein the Saudi higher-ups told their terrorist employees to attack the US (maybe "fooled them into" is a better way of putting it).

You don't need remote controls and shit like that. You can swing it politically.

[gandalf]

14. Inability to keep a secret -- two comments

You are using here one of the standard arguments to counter conspiracy theories.
1) But in the US history there were some conspiracies that worked long enough. Take, for example, CIA drug smuggling operations. This is a fact with the potential for a huge scandal. But even today few people know about it, and it was never front page stuff for the media. Or the fact (documented in the famous Rolling Stone article, 1977, by Carl Berstein -- colleague of Woodward, by the way) that many journalists were working for the CIA and thus secretly selling their independence and betraying their readers. Again potential for a huge scandal. But it more or less stayed under the rug.

2) Some people would have known of a conspiracy. But even if there were people willing to betray the conspiracy and go to the media, it would change nothing. The media is proficient in discrediting and ridiculing dissident ideas. First they simply ignore dissenting ideas. If a lot of people start taking them serious, these ideas will be ridiculed as conspiracy crap.

[hang a left]

18. And maybe if they think someone is getting ready to leak or

comes upon the plot they are ah suicided, like the man at the state department, throwing himself out the window.

[doni_georgia]

15. wading through

I have been to many sites which propose the MIHOP theory - some more plausible than others. I personally think there are too many holes in it. Read some interesting sites about the Pentegon attack, one that said Rumsfeld even called what hit the Pentegon a "missile," (said it was in an interview with Parade Magazine although that quote was cut - don't know how the person knew about that quote then, and he didn't offer documentation). If it wasn't a 757 that hit the Pentagon, then what happened to the 757 that supposedly did? We all saw the 2nd plane hit the WTC. Don't think anyone can doubt that was a passenger jet. This scenario is very similar to the conspiracy theories involving LBJ and the CIA in JFK's assassination. Don't think they could ever be proven. Really don't think LIHOP can be proven either (even though I lean that way). I'm also not sure that the government didn't indeed shoot down the plane over Pennsylvania, which would have been the correct response. If we did shoot it down, though, don't know why they wouldn't admit it, since they would have only be following standard NORAD procedure.

I believe the most likely chain of events is that there were dismal intelligence failures prior to 9/11. The PNAC document is online. Terrorists could get their hands on it as easily as anyone else. If they wanted to draw us into a war, causing a 2nd Pearl Harbor type event would be the way to go. They knew that Bushco was planning on waging a war on Afghanistan and Iraq. What better way to go than get the first strike in themselves? Bush is hated in the middle east, ,and given what happened in America during the Vietnam era, most of these countries thought that the American people would not be able to stomach another war. Saddam told his soldiers this repeatedly prior to the 1st Gulf War and the second. There are still many unanswered questions, such as, why were the attackers almost all Saudi nationals? Why hasn't anyone looked into the fact that at least two of the supposed hijackers have been said to be alive and in Saudi Arabia (one dad said that one of the pictures of a hijacker was his son, and he was in Saudi the whole time and is still in Saudi)?

[phoebe]

21. At what particular time of that particular day DID they FOLLOW

NORAD procedure? No flame meant here but your argument doesn't stand up.

[mopaul]

19. plausible

and since the jury is still out on this, a reasonable theory.

my slightly different angle is: the hijackers were spooks.

they left obvious trails all over preceeding the event, and the f.b.i. had their faces and names on display THE NEXT DAY. arab men seen partying and cavorting with strippers the night before. they left copies of the koran in the bar. excuse me? atta's wallet found on the street below the carnage, in pristine condition with a passport i.d. excuse me? arab men asking to learn to fly, and specifically stating they didn't care to learn how to land. excuse me?

where are the black boxes? 4 of them, unaccounted for.
to many weird questions. and too many simple 'official' stories.

the investigation ain't over til it's over

[Dover]

20. Not exactly sure what your definition of "spooks" is.

They didn't really exist and the trails you mentioned have been made up after the fact by 'creative' intelligence?


At any rate, your points are well taken, and I'd like to hear more about your theory.

[loudsue]

22. I'm really glad you started this thread, Dover- My thoughts exactly

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, given some of the things the pentegon ADMITS they are capable of.

I don't think the "suicide bombers" KNEW they were going to be suicided. I think that they just thought they were getting black-ops CIA permission to "hijack" the planes. I don't think these "fundamentalist" hijackers (who were reportedly fairly hedonistic, by all accounts -- which "fundamentalists" AREN'T) knew what the end game was. The "manuals" that were found so quickly in rental cars, the passport found in the rubble so quickly ... I mean, PUHHLLLEEEAAASE! That just isn't even feasible! The goons that were in on it were too "suddenly" able to come up with all this "evidence" against these muslim militants, when all of this was also such a "surprise" attack. You just can't have it both ways! If it was such a surprise, why did they have any clue where to look for any of it? How would they know one passport in a pile of rubble from another passport in a pile of rubble?

The anti-MIHOP crew, anti-tinfoil crew, always says: "well, you couldn't have pulled it off without a lot of people knowing about it."

It's obvious to me that, indeed, TOO MANY people knew about it, which is PRECISELY why it could never be kept under wraps....and why so many people, and the NY Times, think "BUSH KNEW"... remember the headline?

FEMA was sent to NYC on September 10th. The head of FEMA told Dan Rather right there on a live interview on 9/11 (or 9/12 -- can't remember because I watched TV for 4 days straight)on TV. You only saw it once before it disappeared into a black hole, but it was recorded, and has since been linked on the DU threads. I saw it on LIVE TV.

The Pentegon officials who were SUPPOSED to fly on 9/11, changed their flights on 9/10. It was in an article in Newsweek on September 23rd....look it up in the library.

Jeb Bush issued executive order #160 (or #162...can't remember for sure) putting the Florida Nat'l. guard on high alert on September 7th. It's in the record...I read the thing back in the early days of our investigations.

There WERE too many people who knew, and they left a NASTY trail of evidence behind them, showing they knew.

But I also believe the reason the only "hijacked" plane shot down was the one in PA is absolutely because the passengers intervened. There's no other explanation that I can see. How could the pentegon keep steering and controlling a plane that was in the hands of it's own pilots and people with cell phones?

I haven't posted about it before, because it just adds more layers of horror to what we ALREADY know, and even I (a die-hard tinfoilhatter) have trouble grasping the evil of the mafia in charge of this terrible event.

Like you, I'm not at all sure those hijackers KNEW they were going to their deaths when they hijacked those planes. I think they got sold a bill of goods, themselves.

:hi: Thanks for posting this. It is definitely something we should all look at, and study some more.

:kick: