Do parents brainwash children with organized religion?

[ringmastery]

Unless a child can experience different religions and choose their own beliefs after careful study, isn't imposing a religion on an impressionable child amount to brainwashing that child?

[JAbuchan08]

1. I've always been of this belief n/t

[codegreen]

2. absolutely

[strategery blunder]

3. Yes

I'm a Christian, but I believe that any religious observances must be sincere--not coerced by an outside entity (parents, in this case).

Edited to add 'any'

[Direckshun]

4. ...

Perhaps. I suppose that depends on your definition of "brainwash." They aren't making the kid INCAPABLE of choosing different religions, after all.

If a parent truly believes in a religion, it's honorable that they try to introduce a child to that religion. They want their child to be influenced and affected by that faith like they are. They want the best for their child.

I don't find that to be a questionable practice. I think it's fine.

[Mountainman]

5. Brainwash? I think all parents of all cultures teach their beliefs to

their children. I don't know if it should be called brainwashing. I was taught by my dad and some teachers in high school to think for myself. I have rejected the religion taught to me by my parents.

[progressiveBadger]

6. Well....

on the flip side, if you don't give your child any experience with religion, they are unlikely to ever search for spirituality themselves. So I guess it's a toss up. I agree with you that MOST religions just forcefeed their beliefs without allowing anyone to question them. I am currently going to a Unitarian Universalist church, and I think it is the first time that I've ever experienced religion, or spirituality, without feeling that a particular set of beliefs is being told to me, and I cannot question them. I won't go into detail about them, but it has renewed my interest in religion. Something I lost while attending a religious high school.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Just wondering

what your basis is for the following statement:

if you don't give your child any experience with religion, they are unlikely to ever search for spirituality themselves


Is this something you read, is it your opinion based on your own experience of children raised without being exposed to religon ( how many? I don't know anyone like that) or what?

[progressiveBadger]

28. own experience

I have friends and family who have raised their kids with religion, and friends and family that didn't introduce their kids to religion. There are exceptions, but for the most part, the kids that were raised without religion haven't done any searching on their own.
When you say "how many? I don't know anyone like that" do you mean you don't know any children raised without being exposed to religion?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. Yes that's what I meant

[Alpha Wolf]

110. I used to go to a Universalist church...

and what was frustrating for me there was that I still saw a set of "truths" that were expected to be adhered to-- it's just that they were a different set of truths than traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs.

[Az]

111. Try a different UU church

They all have their own flavor. Its really a collection of people sharing their input into a view of the society around them.

[Alpha Wolf]

125. How is that "church" though?

How is that any different than what goes on in every tavern, hair salon, and truck stop everywhere in the world?

[Az]

133. Some would agree with you

Many claim UUism is no religion. In truth it is the essense of what religion can be in its original sense. It is a group of people coming together to share in cherished beliefs. It doesn't need to be dogmatic. It doesn't need to revolve around a god or mystical beliefs. It is about the people.

[seabeyond]

7. brainwashing children

and any other human, comes in all form. in all ways one looks at life. i spend so much time having kids see all sides. i express and tell them to listen for self, take within and figure out for self. i discuss trappings of conditioning and if in understanding all humans can feel when this is being done, to hone on this gift.

[NNN0LHI]

8. My parents tried it on me. I am still pissed about it to this day

I left the religion decision up to my own kids to make for themselves and they thank me for not putting them though it every time the subject comes up. My kids are grown now and neither of them believe in some all knowing big man up in the sky.

Don

[progressiveBadger]

12. Did you introduce any belief to them

or did you leave it completely up to them to initiate any search?

[NNN0LHI]

21. No

I felt that decision was best left up to them. I am convinced that was the right thing to do too.

Don

[progressiveBadger]

32. I was just wondering

This is an interesting topic to me.

[mzmolly]

9. *Imposing* a religious belief without giving permission to re-examine is..

but simply subjecting them to a belief it not necessarilly so.

[lastknowngood]

10. Duh it's programing/mind control that is what religion is in the

western culture any more. There are almost no investigators of the ancient mysteries and spirituality only surface childish rules. It's a damn shame they have no idea what their religion is about.

[Bandit]

11. If parents do it then the answer is no. If an outside group,person,teacher

etc. does it then yes it is a form of brainwashing. Parents always will and always have passed on their beliefs and that is fine. It is when those in position of power like teachers, judges, policemen, etc. take it upon themselves to "educate" your child that it becomes brainwashing.

[progressiveBadger]

14. But a child's life doesn't belong to a parent

any more than it belongs to the childs teacher. Being a parent shouldn't give you the right to force your child into something like religion. Yes, you can be a role model, you can give guideance. But parenthood shouldn't be a free ticket to force a religion on your child.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. You pass on your beliefs

How you child chooses to live his or her life is up to them once they become an adult.

[SilasSoule]

13. Did my (Catholic) parents brainwash me with their political beliefs

as well?

They raised me to beleive that I should treat other religions, cultures and beliefs with tolerance and respect. Were they wrong? Was I being politically brainwashed? As a 5 year old, should I have experienced other beliefs first, then studied the differences before making my decision?

[kiahzero]

68. Depends...

Did they teach you that conservatives are tortured for an eternity with no hope, at an impressionable young age?

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Do parents brainwash kids with liberal beliefs?

Of course not. Parents pass down their beliefs to their kids. In fact, that's their job.

This thread is more anti-religious flamebait bullshit.

[SilasSoule]

18. I agree with muddle.....More anti-religion flamebait.

[citizen snips]

20. I hafta agree.

I am a Christian liberal and my parents never shoved religion down my throat.

[Momgonepostal]

22. I'm glad someone else said this

I was thinking it, but feel like I'm too much of a newbie to get away with saying it. :-)

I feel like it's my job as mom to teach my children (what I believe to be) right from wrong. When they grow up, they may come to their own different conclusions.

I suspect most people here have no problem teaching their children their political beliefs. Is that brainwashing, too?

[Mithridates]

26. Either you teach them your values....

Or the street will teach them its.

Frankly, I don't care much for Viacom raising my children.

[LeahMira]

129. It's called socializing, and we all do it

I feel like it's my job as mom to teach my children (what I believe to be) right from wrong.

That's different from teaching them your religion or passing on your religious beliefs. If your sentences generally start with "God says..." then you are passing on religious beliefs. If your sentences generally start with "I've found that..." then you are passing on the benefit of your own experience.


I suspect most people here have no problem teaching their children their political beliefs.

Children may know which political party each of their parents prefers, but I think that telling your children what sort of society you think is more just and explaining why you think that is not necessarily teaching them your political beliefs. OTOH, if you tell them that "in this family, we have always been Democrats" you're getting into a whole different thing.

[Mithridates]

25. Fascinating the hatred of religion that pervades the Left

Kerry is just middling right now. You would think that with things this bad he would be cruising 10 points ahead but he is just withing the statistical margin of error.

The problem is that most Americans, who are religious, do not trust the hatred of religion that pervades bicoastal secular types and their automatic equation of religion with evil. And that is why Americans are more comfortable with Democratic Presidential candidates from the Bible Belt than from bastions of cultural liberalism.

[drdigi420]

115. Hatred of religion is due to the religion

Religion is offering false explanations for things that cannot be currently explained, which causes many to ask 'why search for answers if they are all already here'.

This stagnates growth and learning. Religion is a hinderance to critical development, especially in the areas of investigation and learning.

Without religion, there is peace.
If there was a god, there'd be no need for religion.

One question:
How did we go from Jesus becoming a zombie to a rabbiit hiding plastic eggs?

[Sandpiper]

29. Again, this is one of the rare times that I agree with you Muddle

Parents have been passing their world view down to their children since the dawn of time. Some children will accept the paradigm of their parents and make it their own, others will reject it in favor of their own views.

A parent passing their beliefs on to their children isn't brainwashing, it's parenting.

[JVS]

64. What is with the parent-hating going on in threads lately?

[Skittles]

69. do they take them to a liberal building every Sunday

to hear a liberal speaker?

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Some do, ever been to an African-American church?

[Skittles]

103. they certainly did not preach intolerance

nt

[SemperEadem]

138. I wouldnt call AA churches liberal at all

[Muddleoftheroad]

147. I guess all that support for Civil Rights

Against wars, etc. is really right wing.

[alittlelark]

72. I would say that it is more of a treatise

on the 'brainwashing' of children.

I give my children access to ALL religious/spiritual forums. We have been to Christian services in 5 denominations, to the Synagogue 3 times, to an Earth Goddess ceremony, to a Mosque twice, and we practice 'meditation'...which is just bein' quiet and thinking.

PS - NO TV!!!!!

They will grow up to believe that which THEY choose to believe.


Some may want kids to be 'minnie-me's'......but that's just sick.

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. Fine for you, not for me

I will pass along my beliefs to my kids as most folks choose to do. What they choose to believe as adults will be up to them but it will be built on that foundation.

[alittlelark]

85. Where do you get those 'sound bites'

I see all over the board (me- relatively low post #'s.....mostly hangin'). As a 'devils advocate' - I get it.....but wwwhhhatsuuup!

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. Sound bites?

Perhaps you just like the way I write.

Awww...

[alittlelark]

88. Yeah, sound bites

I've been following them for at least a month. And you are always just ....so.....timely. Just sooooo something(?)

Sound bites.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Dang, a fan

Wow. Gee, you made my night.

Awesome.

[alittlelark]

90. I'm a fan if you are a 'good witch'

and something else if you are a 'bad witch'.

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. I guess it depends on your point of view

And that probably depends on the issue. As is obvious in this thread, even some folks who disagree with me at times agree with me here.

[alittlelark]

96. Muddle up the issues

Love this song - "Good work if ya can get it - and you can get it if you try...."

The 'muddle of the road' gives ya' lots of leeway.

[bloom]

137. I exposed my children to a variety ot spiritual expressions, also

But I think that that in itself is raising them (brainwashing, if you must) in a way that encourages a certain kind of thinking. More liberal thinking than just going to one specific denomination, but a certain kind of thinking, with certain values, nonetheless.

[Blue_Chill]

92. Well said muddle

This thread is a joke.

[mzmolly]

102. Agreed. Religion is part of a value system. Children need a set of

values to operate from. They are free to change their minds as adults.

[playahata1]

113. Critiquing religion does not necessarily mean anti-religion.

Why can't you see that religion can be used, twisted, manipulated into something that oppresses people (women, gays, people of color -- take your pick)? It is this using, twisting, and manipulating that some of us are commenting on, not the notion of religion itself.

[Blue_Chill]

116. Yes anti-religion = anti-religion

And there are more then a few on this board that are exactly anti-religion. If you don't see it fine but it's there.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. It's amazing that anyone learns to think for themselves.

Not many people really do, of course.

[yardwork]

17. I don't know about most religious families, but what I saw

growing up in a very fundamentalist part of the midwest qualified as child abuse, imo. Some of my classmates were raised in families that practiced emotional and psychological abuse. They were terrorized with the threat of eternal damnation if they made one false move or had one wrong thought. They were taught that only the "saved" members of their particular denomination or even their particular individual church (the one across town was corrupt and fallen) would go to heaven. Everyone else would go to hell. In other words, only a tiny percent of Christians were "saved." Everyone else was damned to eternal hellfire. Never mind what they thought about non-Christians. You don't want to know....

Even discussing the issue was taboo. Allowing a non-sanctioned thought to enter one's mind meant risking damnation.

Unfortunately, all these people think that * is God-anointed. They don't dare vote against him or even question his actions, for fear of you know what....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. I believe that it's important for parents to share their

own belief system with their children. Otherwise, they are by default ceding the job to the mass media and the marketeers, and that is a recipe for superficial, rootless, messed up kids who have no inner resources and are susceptible to anything the boob tube tells them.

In fact, not providing a belief system opens the child to the danger of being taken in by an authoritarian belief system in a quest for something to cling to. Think John Walker Lindh, who obviously had very laissez-faire parents, or else they wouldn't have let him go off to Yemen by himself to delve into an extreme form of Islam.

Back in the 1970s, a New York Times writer wrote about her son, who had become a Hare Krishna and cut off all contact with his very secular parents. She said in her article that he had always had mystical inclinations, and one of the letters that came in response to the article said that the parents (who were Jewish) should have asked a rabbi, even a humanist rabbi, to guide the young man to the hundreds of years of Jewish mystical tradition.

The belief system doesn't have to be a religion. If the parents are scientific rationalists, mystical environmentalists, or Marxists, that's fine, just so they provide some family standards: "We do this. We don't do this. And it has nothing to do with what's fashionable." What better practice for not following the herd?

Even if the kids grow up to reject their parents' beliefs, at least they've started somewhere, and if they leave the belief system, they often take the good parts with them.

My brothers and I were brought up as the children of a Lutheran pastor. I was lucky in that the religion was not oppressive. In fact, I have many beautiful memories of services and home celebrations. I am no longer a Lutheran: in practice, I am an Episcopalian, and in theology, probably closer to the Unitarians. One brother has remained a Lutheran, and the other (the right winger--how's that for smashing a stereotype?) avoids church, although his wife is bringing up their children in the Presbyterian church.

I once dated a man who had grown up as the son of a minister in an evangelical denomination. He no longer considered himself a Christian, but he said he was grateful for two things about his background: he understood all the Biblical allusions in literature, music, and art; and he learned from an early age how to behave in public gatherings.

Unless you're in a really oppressive situation, there are no obstacles to leaving your family belief system once you're an adult. Your parents might be disappointed, but they can't really stop you from making up your own mind, can they?

[SilasSoule]

24. very eloquently and accurately stated Lydia

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SalParadise]

30. Hear, hear!

If any of these posts went up with "Islam" or "Hindu" in the place of "Christian" the message & it's poster would be gone in a second.

With crap like this, you do nothing but reinforce the stereotype that "liberals hate God".

Let me add the qualifier that I've been an athiest for most of my life, so I'm not just disagreeing with any of this because I'M offended - I don't care.

Seriously, like Sel says - Give it a fucking rest.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Although I agree it's time to give it a rest

I think you'll find far more positive comments about Christianity than negative ones in this thread - the one negative one is talking about a church that thought most other Christians were going to hell.
Most of the anti-religious comments were scrupulously netural in just talking about 'religion'.

[kiahzero]

66. I'm sorry, but I failed to see "Christian" mentioned

So claiming that the post was anti-Christian requires a little more than your assertion that it is so.

[hippiegranny]

34. feel better now?

i wonder what jesus would say about this rant...

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Selwynn]

42. Oh yeah, well here it is again.

I say again, well let's see..

First of all, you make a (oh for fuck's sake, I think I know why my post was removed now. Jesus christ. Ok, I'll rephrase) TRAGICALLY MISGUIDED assumption when you assume that because I'm sick and tired of religion bashing threads, I care about some stupid platiitude jingoistic marketing slogan like "What Would Jesus Do?"(tm) By the way, WWJD is a marketed, copyrighted slogan, and I'm not calling the poster jingoistic, I am calling the slogan jingoistic.

However, since you asked I think Jesus would probably nod in understanding of great frustration and think back to his early days of over turning tables in the temple and driving out merchants with a home made whipe, or perhaps his long and scathing rant against the Pharisees.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. I have a suggestion for you

CLICK HERE >>>

[slinkerwink]

31. yes, with fundamentalist religion brainwashing, that is

[0007]

33. Can't speak for anyone else, but mine tried.

[Soup Bean]

35. They don't think of it as brainwashing.

But what is brainwashing? I guess we each dip our brains into something each day. I suppose being able to choose what we dip into is the difference between freedom and oppression.

[Maestro]

36. I believe some do

especially fundies who fear that if there child is exposed to anything outside of the non-secular world their child will somehow be corrupted, however, I don't think that parents or a parent who pass along spiritual values to a child is wrong. I am a very liberal Christian, at best, trying to find my own way wanting to believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ and trying to reconcile those views with my scientific factual based mind. I hope that my children grow up with Christian values but at the same time realize that at any time they can make a choice to believe these or seek spirituality somewhere else. I do hope they have some sort of spirituality though. Life is seems empty to me without it.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

38. Brainwash?

Endeavoring to pass on ones religion to ones offspring is a particularly insidious cycle of violence that, in order for humanity to break the chains of stagnation, must one day be known by its proper name—child abuse!

(Right on the money NNN0LHI-#8, my kids (both middle aged) thank me too!)

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. That post is lunacy

It's not child abuse to pass along your beliefs. But it is stupidity to fail to do so.

[Blue_Chill]

93. I agree

Some people that believe so strongly in their own nonsense that I consider them dangerous. Remember in history it hasn't been just the religious that killed mass amounts of people. All fanatics are dangerous, and calling religion child abuse is a clear sign of a fanatic IMHO.

[0007]

123. .....and there were those that agreed that Salvador Allende

should be replaced, and then realized too late they followed a dangerous man that almost took a nation down.

[Blue_Chill]

135. ok.....

thanks?

[0007]

136. Your welcome Blue_Chill

[Az]

124. When belief becomes abuse

A child is struck by a disease. The parents believe that any invasive intervention on the part of Doctors endangers the child's soul and refuses treatment.

A child is forced to undergo mutilation as part of a religious tradition.

Both these things are abuse. Both are defended by seperation of church and state.

[LeahMira]

131. Did you pay attention?

It's not child abuse to pass along your beliefs. But it is stupidity to fail to do so.

Did you read some of the previous posts that described "beliefs" that had children terrified of even hearing about other possibilities of belief?

[Selwynn]

45. .

[Selwynn]

47. What about passing on other beliefs? What about any kind of teaching...

...should parents not teach their kids any of the values they hold, or is it just religion that is child abuse?

...what about teaching kids democratic politics? Is that child abuse?

Thanks to clearly illustrating the kind of bigoted thinking that is consistently tolerated here. We get mad when people talk negatively about southerners, we get mad when people use insensitive language toward woman or gays, we come down on things that even smack of racial predjudice...

...but wow... if you're a religious person, its OPEN SEASON on you. You can be called a child abuser and anything else under the sun free and without consequence... because that kind of prejudice is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE HERE.

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. Remembering that we're talking about

organized religion, few other beliefs are passed on by making children regularly go to special buildings where they either sit in silence listening to the belief, or repeat someone else's words about the beliefs. Hardly any learning in school is done by rote these days, and even there there's a lot of oversight on what gets taught.

[Selwynn]

84. That's fair, but I must qualify.....

...I strongly feel that organized religion can be negatively indoctrinating - brainwashing I guess. But I know from experience that it does not have to be that way. For one thing, there is far more "organized" religion than institutional Christianity. But even within Christianity, I know that the experience of organized religious community does not have to be imprisoning. It can be voluntary, inspiring and desirable to some.

I do think that ultimately children reach the same point we all reach, where they have to stand on their own two feet and decide what beliefs they personally hold and cherish and why, and what beliefs they reject and why. And parents can either positively assist of negatively affect that journey... both religious and non religious parents.

[BigThama]

40. What is the difference...

between parents teaching their children that there is a God and teaching their children that there is no God?

One way, you teach them to put their faith in the unknown, in the form of an all-knowing God.
The other way, you teach them to put their faith in the unknown, in the form of the human mind.

One way, you teach them that deviation results in damnation.
The other way, you teach them that deviation results in wasting your life in this silly religion stuff.

I'm sick of this attitude of superiority coming from many (not all) of the secularists here at DU. A belief that God doesn't exist is just as faith-based as a belief that he does exist, the faith is just pointed in a different direction. Get off of your high horses.

[LifeDuringWartime]

53. what about those of us who dont care either way?

my feeling is that if there is an all-powerful person in the sky, that none of the religions have it right and he/she/it probably doesn't care if you're a "sinner" or whatever.

if there isn't one, then that explains a lot! lol

[Padraig18]

44. So is brushing your teeth.

Trust me, if you waited on a kid to 'experience and learn' about brushing vs non-brushing, we'd be a toothless nation in 50 years...

[whosinpower]

46. I think so

And have always considered religion to be an avenue to control the masses....having said that, my son considers himself to be christian even though we do not practice the faith in the ways of reading scripture and going to church. We follow some simple rules that appear to transcend most faiths - the big rule, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" .....and we actively encourage our son to really investigate many different religions.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Is teaching them to drive brainwashing them?

Unless they can run off the road, end up ramming into a tree and suffering a head injury, aren't the parents unreasonably imposing their own driving habits on the kid?

No teaching a kid religion is not tantamount to brainwashing. Parents are responsible for the development of their children's lives. Once children enter the more rebellious ages, they DO form opinions for themselves.

In fact, many of the athiests that post at DU admit to coming from fundamentalists families, so that would shoot holes through your theory since they did freely choose once old enough to.

[ringmastery]

50. do we teach children about the tooth fairy or santa claus?

I will not teach my children to believe in things that aren't scientifically proven.

I will teach my children science and reason and to use those tools to come to their own conclusions about religion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. I think you just rebutted your own argument since kids let go of the tooth

fairy and Santa Claus, just as they CAN let go of religious beliefs. Brainwashing implies NO CHOICE in the matter.
As a parent, nobody is telling you what to teach your children, but one gets institutionalized via education, community and culture as well as they do religion.

BTW, careful with teaching your kids about scientifically proven things...science is being bastardized by corporate contributions so you can never be sure.

I might add...science can only evaluate inside the paradigm of that which can be known...otherwise as in medicine, they use the term idiopathic...even they admit some things are unknowable.

[kiahzero]

73. There is a difference

Neither the tooth fairy nor Santa Clause will torment you for an eternity if you fail to meet their requirements. According to some faiths, Jehovah/Eloheim/Allah will.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. So how about Halloween?Should we cancel that?

[kiahzero]

75. Huh?

What does either of the following have to do with the doctrine of eternal damnation?

1) A secular festival where children get candy from adults in the neighborhood.
2) A Catholic festival honoring saints.
3) A Latino festival focusing on the reverence of ancestors.
4) A Pagan festival celebrating the new year.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. simple. It's a tradition..an institution..grounded in religion that

elicits fear (and if you've ever visited a haunted house, I don't need to tell you about the eternal damnation thing)

Again...I think the argument that it is brainwashing is broad, vague and doesn't apply equally to all religions...Jews don't believe in hell...nor do UU's.

If we are going to apply this reasoning to religion then let's evaluate ALL institutions or stop broadly comdemning one.

[kiahzero]

79. Haunted houses are not hell houses

And yes, I hold "Hell Houses" in the same level of contempt.

I did not clearly articulate this elsewhere, but here's my opinion on the matter: It's only brainwashing when the notion of eternal damnation is invoked. That's a threat, and it's emotionally abusive to threaten children with infinite punishment for a thought crime.

Hence, Jews don't brainwash their children. UU's don't brainwash their children. Buddhists don't brainwash their children. Moderate Christians don't brainwash their children. Moderate Muslims don't brainwash their children. Fundamentalist Christians brainwash their children, as do Fundamentalist Muslims.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. I'm OK with that..we fundamentally (not in the biblical sense) agree :-)

The fact is..this thread treats the issue with a broad brush. YOu are specific in your critique and I can respect that.

[Selwynn]

57. You do that, just don't go around attacking others who pass on

meaningful spiritual family traditions without forcing children to accept it without question.

I will teach my children science and reason, and as a philosopher I will also teach them philosophy, specifically epistemology, and yes, I will share with them my personal spiritual convictions and why I have them, while at the same time encouraging them to ask questions and question things.

[BigThama]

105. Come on.

As a moleclar biology student, I'll chip in a bit. First, you can't "prove" anything with science. The highest level of conclusiveness is to present a theory, supported with layers of evidence.

Second, what makes you think that science and reason are any higher than religion? What reason do you have to think that human reason is capable of discovering truth on its own? Our brains evolved as survival mechanisms, capable of putting together pieces of information and finding ways to use them. The failure of Aristotle's near-perfect reasoning to stumble upon anything resembling real physical laws discredits the idea of our mere reason being powerful or accurate at all. All we can really do is observe and assimilate.

[Snellius]

51. Yes

.

[Solon]

54. One thing I noticed in this thread...

First off, I would say that parents are unable to avoid to pass their religion or values down to their kids. Whether their kids follow those religions when entering adulthood is a different matter entirely. Also I notice that many people on this thread automatically assume that this thread is referring to Christianity specifically. Only Organized Religion is mentioned in the first post, and that could be many of the different religions that are established, whether its Judaism, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, etc.

Actually this is a controversy in some religious circles, as to whether it is appropriate for the children, before they develop critical thinking skills, to participate in the parent's religious practices. I believe that is best left up to the parents in how best to raise their kids, however the one exception to this is abuse. Like anything belief system, Religion can be abused, if the parents take the "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child" mentality too literally, even if it is an important belief in their religion, then they are going too far. This could be considered brainwashing in the crudest form, to beat you kid into believing in your religion. It is also illegal and IMHO immoral, it is also child abuse, and the state should step in. NO this is not a generalization, nor am I swiping a fundies, I am religious myself, but this is going over the line, IMO.

[supernova]

56. Most parents do pass on their traditions and ways

of being and doing in the world, including religion. It's part of the drive to leave something of oneself behind in the world.

I don't know that I would call it brainwashing. Most people as they mature come to realize that, while they may have inherited a set of beliefs, they are not permanently wedded to them. They are responsible for their own decisions in life, including what to worship .... or not. If the path to adulthood was a healthy one, you make spiritual choices independent of your childhood experiences. If not, then you just repeat what you were taught.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

58. "brainwashing" makes this a completely loaded question.

i think it might be more apporpriate to ask "is it ok for parents to pass on their world view to their children?"

i think passing on beleifs and practices that encourage ignorance and intolerance are detrimental to a peaceful society. Specifying whose beliefs fall into this category is a daunting task since religions have sects and sects have churches and churches have parents and parents are individuals so there is a lot of wiggle room there. a lot of room for diversity. all with different degrees of world view shaping for the little ones.

if my parents tried to brainwash me it didn't work so well.

[SilasSoule]

65. Good Point...

brain·wash·ing ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brnwshng, -wôshng)
n.

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.

2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

[ibegurpard]

126. This I can definitely agree with.

eom

[Nlighten1]

60. Yes they do and it should be considered child abuse.

It is a crime to treat such a young mind so cruelly.

[MrSlayer]

61. Yes. And it's abuse in some cases.

Have you ever seen those little kids at the "God Hates Fags" rallies? Not only is it brainwashing, it can be abuse. Nothing more disgusting than teaching little kids hatred and intolerance.

[nonconformist]

62. No, not really

Ideally, all kids should be raised exposed to many different ideologies so they can make an informed decision on how they feel themselves. Most often, this isn't the case. But I wouldn't equate it to 'brainwashing' except in the most extreme of circumstances.

Since I'm not very religious (I consider myself an agnostic Pagan, although I was raised as a Christian and my family accepts this), I'll use another example - political influence. Everyone in my family is a die-hard Democrat. I was raised with that ideology and taught to be proud of it, to embrace it, to be vocal and active in politics. I don't feel at ALL that I was "brainwashed" into my beliefs, instead I commend my family for passing on ideas that they believed in. In most instances, I think that would apply to religion as well.

[sweetheart]

63. The secular religion taught in schools is far more dangerous

What we teach as american history is disgraceful, and amounts to
taxpayer funded brainwashing, even more dangerous than "your parents"
as every teenager *KNOWS* that their parents are full of shite.

The illusion of corporatism, and the religion of dog eat dog
capitalism, and free market is god-ism, and science is-god ism and
being rich is god'ism... these religions we do not question, yet
are far more insideous than what is presented in churches.

Our cultural religion is miltarism, that might makes right... this is
by far the sickest and most failed religion of them all, yet most
americans ascribe to it. Parents... so what.

[The empressof all]

71. yes...

When my daughter was younger it killed me a little to give in to some of her material wishes..(Barbies, happy meals...) It sometimes was a struggle to find some happy medium. The other thing I struggled with was watching what I said regarding Republicans and Fundie Christians around the home. (I still struggle with this on a daily basis and lately have been losing the battle). I continually try to qualify and explain when I sink down into the bowels of bad language towards those that I think poorly of. I hate being hypocritical when I don't practice what I preach at home which is tolerance.

[Skittles]

67. definitely

nt

[gpandas]

70. certainly nt

[dawn]

76. No, unless they oppose their child changing religions.

That's when trying to impose your beliefs becomes a problem.

[Az]

77. Improper use of the term

Brainwash implies that you are overwriting existing positions. In fact what all parents do is indoctrinate their children in their cultural and religious institutions. This is simply the socialization process. As Richard Dawkins suggests it is no coinicidence that of all the beliefs in the world children most often wind up following the same path as their parents.

The thing of this is that we can see that religion does not spread by power of truth. Rather it is the efficacy of its methodology of propogation that determines its spread. This can be quite independent of the truth. Like an evolutionary game of telephone, the version of the story that spreads the best is the one that dominates over time.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

104. The whole concept of brainwashing has been discredited - long ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing


My person feeling is that it is the duty of parents to raise their children in a way that will maximize their potential to be creative individuals and make their own decisions.

[CJCRANE]

143. Yes, but

in many religions people are taught to repeat prayers/mantra/chants on a regular basis (or read the same book over and over again). This then becomes a form of self-hypnosis that reinforces those memes, so could be considered a type of brainwashing.

[Az]

144. Sounds like a math class

Thats simply the basis of how we teach our children things. Yes, some religions do make use of neurological feed back and other anamolies to keep themself prominent in peoples minds. But this does not mean that the intent of this thread is met. It is still a simple passing of cultural values from parent to child. This is what they are supposed to do. The fact that a symbiotic social construct makes use of this does not make it brainwashing.

Brainwashing specifically implies attempting to overwrite a person's beliefs with another set by force. What parents are doing is laying the foundation of belief for their children. Whatever their belief may happen to be. This is not brainwashing, its brainloading. If I showed up afterward and strapped the kid to a chair and attempted to use pysop tricks to force a different belief into the child's mind that would be brainwashing.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

81. Fury

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost invariably, some part of him is aware that they are myths, and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.”

Bertrand Russell

I would suggest that we have seen the fury Russell speaks of amply demonstrated above (though, thankfully, the most vitriolic is now edited out).

[themann1086]

87. DO they?

Sometimes, yes. I find it depends on the parents, the sect, the religious leaders, and other "adult" figures a child grows up with that really determines the level of "brainwashing" (a better term would be "indoctrination"). My church was... boring. really boring. and my parents were pretty lax about religion. Until I rejected it. Since then they've been a little harder on me.

Personally, I think it depends on the atmosphere. If the school, religious institution, and/or the parental figures create an open environment which allows for critical thinking and questioning, then it's not "brainwashing/hardcore indoctrination."

If you want to have more in-depth debates about this, there is a religious debate forum I frequent, and I'd be very willing to provide the URL.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

94. Well we're teaching our child to be liberal....

does that count as brainwashing?

[kiahzero]

98. Depends

Do you teach your children that conservatives are forever burned in a firey Hell while Satan pokes them with a pitchfork? If so, yes... yes you are brainwashing them. If not, then probably not.

[Blue_Chill]

95. Hi Ringmaster, please let us know your stance on religion.

Your thread appears to be bias to begin with being that you used "brainwashed" and thus loaded your own question. Just want to know if you are worth my time, as I don't make a habit of debating such topics with people that hate my faith anymore. I've found fanatic athiests to be as vile as religious right wingers, a lost cause.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

97. Yep.

I know atheists (not on this forum) who make their case without being hateful or snide about it and I totally respect them for it. We get along great, in fact and have had some wonderful discussions WRT religion. But when someone is just waiting to slam it, I don't bother. My beliefs are simple and they harm no one. I am not a member of an organized religion and I don't witness to anyone.

[drdigi420]

119. Fanatics suck in all forms, especially religious ones

Easier for holy rollers to keep it to themselves.

Don't participate in religious discussions if you can't handle having your beliefs revealed as myths.

[Blue_Chill]

134. A great example right there.

Thanks buddy.

[AlFrankenFan]

99. Yes...

Just as parents brainwash their children to believe what they believe politically - and reminder, I see this most often with children with Republican parents.

[Dark]

100. Yes it is.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

101. Inculcate?

If, as evidently seen by some, the inclusion of “brainwashed” in the title thread is indicative of bias, perhaps “inculcate,” a term frequently utilized by religions when referring to bringing the little ones into the flock, would be more acceptable?

Personally, I find far more evidence of what some might see as bias in Ringmastery’s,
“Impressionable child” in that the term suggests religion could not exist without access to the child’s mind—a mind in its formative stages.

[West Coast Democrat]

106. Yes, if the parents are fervent believers....

but additionally, often times pushing a religion on to one's children can backfire.

[recidivist]

107. NOT teaching religion to children is also "brainwashing."

There is a common fallacy running through many posts on this thread. This is the notion that if teaching religion to kids is "brainwashing," then NOT teaching religion is "neutral." That, of course, is nonsense.

Not instructing children in religion conveys the idea that religion is something to be avoided, or that it is unimportant, or that religion is purely a matter of personal preference. These ideas come naturally to secularists, but they should not be confused with neutrality on the subject.

Parents raising their kids to be indifferent to religion is every bit as value-laden a choice as the reverse.

[Alpha Wolf]

108. Well said...

I couldn't agree more.

[drdigi420]

118. Except that: religion is false

Teaching truth is nuetral, coloring it with myths is not.

Next.

[ibegurpard]

121. prove that religion is false

eom

[Alpha Wolf]

130. yes, I'd like to see you prove that

n/t

[Alpha Wolf]

148. tap... tap... tap....

still waiting on your "proof" that religion is false.

Helpful Hint: You might want to narrow down your thesis a bit. "Religion is false" is a very broad-sweeping and vague assertion. What religion? What is religion? Do you mean Christianity is false, or Judaism is false, or Taoism is false? Or do you mean they are all false? What about the religion of the druids? Is Stonehenge false? What about a number of new age religions that simply extrapolate on the the golden rule? Is the golden rule false?

Please, define your terms.

[Az]

109. Look, passing on beliefs is what parents do

If your belief is to be open minded to other beliefs that is a belief you pass on to your children. If you believe that the earth is a disc that travels about the universe on the back of 4 elephants standing on a giant flying turtle then that is what you teach your children. Its not brainwashing. Brainwashing is an attempt to change a person's beliefs by use of force and emotional trama. It is an unproven concept and is likely little more than torture.

[drdigi420]

112. worse than that

raising a child to believe that false things are real could be construed as child abuse.

If I raised my child to believe that happiness could only be achieved through self-mutilation, I would be charged with child abuse. Why should it be different for those that raise a child to self-mutilate their mind with religion.

If there was a god, there'd be no need for religion at all.

[recidivist]

114. Sigh.

And if there is a God, failing to teach your children about Him is the worst form of abuse possible.

By all means, parents should instruct their children in the truth. There is, of course, considerable disagreement about what constitutes "truth," and after several thousand years of debate, I do not think we will settle it today.

[drdigi420]

117. Nothing to settle

The truth exists, some ppl prefer to lie to their kids and perpetuate the myths of religion.

I prefer to tell my kids the truth.

[recidivist]

122. So you have demonstrated that you're a dogmatic atheist.

That proves nothing. I can only hope you do not inflict your close-mindedness on your children.

[bloom]

140. Someone could raise their child to believe that buying things...

is the key to happiness.

"raising a child to believe that false things are real could be construed as child abuse"

By your definition, that could be child abuse, as well.

Or any number of other world viewpoints. There would be no end to it.

[Alpha Wolf]

146. Sigh 2

And if there were no God, there would be no atheists.

[ibegurpard]

120. Isn't teaching ANY sort of belief or value system

brainwashing a child if we use your logic?

[EV1Ltimm]

127. not brainwashing -- inherited behavior

it's an inbred psychological condition to help ensure that a child can easily adapt to their respective social/cultural structure; ie their parents.

kids can't help it and parents don't force it, for the most part. much like my children will most likely grow up atheist -- not because we preach the virtues of atheism, but because my wife and myself don't really talk about god/religion that much, so they will be lacking the religious influence.

[maxwall]

128. Agree..

My parents made sure that my brothers and I all were exposed to whatever religions we chose to be exposed to. I've settled on a sort of taoist/pagan/agnosticism... But I went to a few religious summer schools. I went to a summer camp once where I asked the United Methodist youth ministers if they believed in reincarnation, because I felt heaven would eventually get boring (it's eternity, after all) and that I know I'd want to come back and do something. They looked dumbfounded, and I decided I was at the wrong place... :shrug:

[Jimmy Buffett]

132. Brainwash?

Well I'm glad my parents brainwashed me and I'm proud of it. I love you mom and dad.

[genius]

139. Schools brainwash kids. They have to conform and lose their identity

to survive. Read John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of Education in America." He was the teacher of the year numerous times in New York State. The current model we are using came from the Hindus and was designed to perpetuate the caste system.

[rinsd]

141. Loaded question.....

Why limit it to religion?

You can throw in ideology, political affiliation, or basically a whole smorgasbord of things parents "teach" and or pass onto their children. Personally, my best friend and I curse our fathers for instilling a love of the New York Giants(in fact his father called him this season to apologze for that...twice!).

Now, was your question rhetorical or do you have a "solution" for what you perceive as a problem?

[jmowreader]

142. Proof that they do...

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051/1051_01.asp

True entertainment from the master of wacko Christian tracts!

[LibertyorDeath]

145. Yes..Organized Religion is about Control & Power it always has been

Do not confuse Religion with spirituality.

Spirituality is fine while religion sucks the big one IMO

Just read a good History book to see the "Joy" Organized Religion has brought humankind.

Hey anyone thirsty for some Kool aid.