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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 12:48 AM
Original message
Hillary was asked, point blank, by Katie Couric, if she regretted
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 01:48 AM by Dover
her vote to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq. She answered that she only regretted HOW that authority was used.

Even with all she knows now about the lies and the bad intelligence that was used, she does NOT regret the invasion itself. Kerry clings to the story that he was misled by bad information, but how would he answer this same question?

Which begs the question I would like all Dems who voted to grant Bush this authority (including Kerry) to answer once and for all.

W H Y ??? Knowing that the actual information used as an excuse to go into Iraq was bogus, were they just as anxious as Bush to go there?

Is the lust after oil and positioning in the Middle East actually a bipartisan goal, with only an argument over method? I WANT ANSWERS!!
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. If she said yes, it might be CONTROVERSIAL.
Imagine if she said, yes, she now realizes she should have voted against the Iraq War, and rightwing pundits said she's soft on defense.

Oh my!

(Hillary Clinton is playing it safe, first by voting for a war, then by saying she did the right thing and any problems in Iraq are because the war wasn't manage right.)
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't have answers - but I too am greatly troubled
by ALL who voted to give Bush the authorization. I support Kerry now, but (sorry) I find his reasons either politically convenient, or very naive. I'm sitting her in Podunk Ohio and I KNEW that if Bush got the authorization he'd go in, with or without help. Jeebus, the man had been talking about it for months - beginning with the stoopid "Axis For Evil."

Buuuuut, that being said, I still weigh that against a lifetime of true, honest public service and find myself now in Kerry's camp. Do I wish he (and others) hadn't supported the resolution? You bet. Do I find his reasons to be rather scarily naive? Oh, yeah.

But I also think he has a far, far, FAR better grasp of the world than Bush and I have no hesitation in supporting him. Not BECAUSE of his vote, but IN SPITE of it.

eileen from OH
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. That is why I hate.....
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 01:23 AM by dennis4868
the democratic party....they are a bunch of spineless whimps...I just finnished reading John Dean's new book and he lays out the case for impeachment based on the Iraq War...Bush's authority given to him by Congress (Resolution/law) to invade Iraq was conditioned on a formal DETERMINATION by the president that there be:

1. a threat from Iraq
2. that could not be dealt with through diplomacy
3. and that Bush's actions in Iraq are consistent with the war against those who attacked us on 911.

Within 48 hours after the war began Bush, by law, was required to submit a DETERMINATION to Congress and prove all the points mentioned above.....his DETERMINATION to Congress was one big lie after another. No proof....just lies!

So what do the Dems have to say about this violation of federal law?Impeachment? Nope....they say NOTHING! NOTHING! And NOTHING! The media also says NOTHING of course....thats a shock!
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You need at least a majority of 1 house to draft an Impeachment.
So long as the Tri-fecta is in power, it will never happen. Win a house, get an Impeachment.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I bet you....
if the roles were reversed and Clinton/Gore were in the WH committing all this fraud and the dems owned both the senate and House, they would still vote for impeachment of a Democratic president.
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I don't doubt they would
EXCEPT that the last time they tried impeachment, it backfired. Clinton's approval ratings did NOT go down, despite their best efforts.

I think impeachment should be used extremely judiciously and (yes) politically. The Republicans made a major strategic error when they did it, and yes, they got the White House, but only through the (haha) graces of the Supreme Court.

I know that we ALL want to punish Bush, etc., for the mess he's created. But I look more at the effects and the long term, rather than what could be the very brief satisfaction of an impeachment.

I want Bush to go down, more than anyone. But I think he can do that on his own lack-o-merits and pounding upon those, rather than directly going-after-him via an impeachment.

If that makes sense.

eileen from OH (who thinks she should make an avatar with that last sentence.)
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. I want Bush....
to be impeached not because of political reasons but for JUSTICE! He has committed "high crimes and misdemeanors" while in office!
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. Info on WMD was fast tracked by the Dark Side's OSP.
The PNAC's Office of Special Plans, run by Rummy, Chaney, Wolfee and Friethee passed sensationalized, bogus Intel on congressional briefings to the houses. That is where the Dem's got fucked and screwed. As a matter of record, this all began back in 1979 when The Neo cons made deals with the devil, Iranian Hostage Plot - forward to Iran-Contra forward to Saddam - WMD Rummy deal. They worked behind the scenes during Clinton, mostly at destroying him, then, as Richard Clarke says, "like preserved in amber," they started day one, Jan 20th 2001 like it was in Jan 1993, their last day.

Yes Dem's need to be cautious to a degree, but a universal scream of outrage would be better. God, I miss that Howard Dean.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Yes, but Hillary answered in the affirmative re: Iraq invasion even NOW
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 01:36 AM by Dover
after she and others have been informed that the intel was bogus. So can we assume that the desire to go into Iraq by some Dems as well as Repugs superceeds the bogus excuses given? Hillary did NOT regret her vote....only how Bush handled his authority.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. From the CSPAN archives
I was trying to find a recent talk by Brezinski that seemed to spell out the BIpartisan foreign policy plan very well. The only significant difference between the PNACers and Dems seemed to be regarding the methods rather than the goals. So are Dems just as committed to having a presence in Iraq/Middle East as Bushco?

I'm still looking for the most recent Brzezinski tape, but here is an older one that features him, Hillary, Soros etc., that's probably interesting too.


World Economic Forum: “The Paradigm For The Future”
Speakers include: Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY); Shimon Peres;George Soros; and Zbigniew Brzezinski.


http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=brzezinski&image1.x=21&image1.y=15
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Gosh, I am wracking my brain. I recently just read this.
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 01:51 AM by liberalnproud
I am gonna go to the archives. I'll be back.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I think I found it

'It's Time to Get Over It'
John Kerry Tells Antiwar Movement to Move On
by Mark Hand
Press Action, 9 Feb 2004
www.globalresearch.ca 19 March 2004
The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HAN403A.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Researchers and investigative reporters are fascinated with the neoconservatives, that group of American empire peddlers who turned George W. Bush into a junkie war criminal. A similar group, the New Democrats, has been pushing its own dangerous brand of U.S. hegemony but with much less fanfare.

The leading mouthpiece for the New Democrats' radical interventionist program could be our next president. John Kerry, the frontrunner in the quest for the Democratic Party presidential nomination, has been promoting a foreign policy perspective called "progressive internationalism." It's a concept concocted by establishment Democrats seeking to convince potential backers in the corporate and political world that, if installed in the White House, they would preserve U.S. power and influence around the world, but in a kinder, gentler fashion than the current administration.

In the domestic battle to captain the American empire, the neocons have in their corner the Project for a New American Century while the New Democrats have the Progressive Policy Institute. Come November, who will get your vote? Coke or Pepsi?

In fall 2000, PNAC released Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century. It's a blueprint for "maintaining global U.S. preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests."

In fall 2003, members of PPI joined with other tough-minded Democrats to unveil Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy, a 19-page manifesto that calls for "the bold exercise of American power, not to dominate but to shape alliances and international institutions that share a common commitment to liberal values."

The New Democrats don't begrudge the Bush administration for invading Iraq. They take issue with the Bush administration's strategy of refusing to invite key members of the international community to the invasion until it was too late. The neocons' unilateralist approach, the New Democrats believe, will ultimately harm U.S. political and economic dominance around the world.

"We are confident that a new Democratic strategy, grounded in the party’s tradition of muscular internationalism, can keep Americans safer than the Republicans’ go-it-alone policy, which has alienated our natural allies and overstretched our resources," the New Democrats say in their foreign policy manifesto. "We aim to rebuild the moral foundation of U.S. global leadership by harnessing America’s awesome power to universal values of liberal democracy. A new progressive internationalism can point the way."

Proponents of "progressive internationalism" are a lock to control leadership positions at the State Department and key civilian posts at the Pentagon in a John Kerry administration. How do we know this? Because these New Democrats obviously ghostwrote Kerry's campaign book, A Call to Service: My Vision for A Better America. Place the Progressive Internationalism manifesto and Kerry's chapter on foreign policy side by side and you'll immediately notice the similarities.

On page 40 of In A Call to Service, Kerry writes: "The time has come to renew that tradition and revive a bold vision of progressive internationalism." What is this tradition to which Kerry refers? As he describes it, Democrats need to honor "the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in the two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the cold war."

Now, turn to page 3 of the New Democrats' manifesto. It reads:

"As Democrats, we are proud of our party’s tradition of tough-minded internationalism and strong record in defending America. Presidents Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman led the United States to victory in two world wars and designed the post-war international institutions that have been a cornerstone of global security and prosperity ever since. President Truman forged democratic alliances such as NATO that eventually triumphed in the Cold War. President Kennedy epitomized America’s commitment to “the survival and success of liberty.” Like the neocons, Kerry was not impressed by France's stance against the U.S. invasion of Iraq. On page 51 of his book, he writes:

"I hope by the time you read this book that the UN has been usefully employed as a partner in the reconstruction of Iraq and that Jacque Chirac has ceased his foolish rebellion against the very idea of the Atlantic Alliance. America, which has always shown magnanimity in victory, should in turn meet repentant Europeans halfway, not ratchet up the badgering unilateralism that fed European fears in the first place." There's much to digest in this paragraph. Perhaps the most interesting nugget is Kerry's statement that the United States should "meet repentant Europeans halfway." Hmmm, John, could you elaborate on what sins the Europeans committed for which they must repent?

On page 50, Kerry details his beef with Old Europe:

"The Bush administration is by no means the only culprit in the breakdown in U.S.-UN relations over Iraq. France, Germany and Russia never supported or offered a feasible policy to verify that UN resolutions on Iraq were actually being carried out. … Our British, Spanish and Eastern European coalition allies are eager to rebuild European unity." Throughout the foreign policy sections of the book, Kerry does his best to convince the reader that he would not run from his role as war criminal in chief if elected president.

Perhaps the most repulsive section of the book is where Kerry discusses the Vietnam War and the antiwar movement. On page 42, Kerry writes:

"I could never agree with those in the antiwar movement who dismissed our troops as war criminals or our country as the villain in the drama. That's one reason, in fact, that I eventually parted ways with the VVAW organizations and instead helped found the Vietnam Veterans of America." If the United States was not a villain in the "drama" of the Vietnam war, then who is to blame for the million-plus Vietnamese who were killed during the 20-year period of naked U.S. aggression that ended in 1975? Surely, John, you don't wish to blame certain communist dead-enders in Vietnam for the carnage?

On the next page, Kerry informs his reader that it's time we stop questioning U.S. foreign policy intentions:

"As a veteran of both the Vietnam War and the Vietnam protest movement, I say to both conservative and liberal misinterpretations of that war that it's time to get over it and recognize it as an exception, not as a ruling example, of the U.S. military engagements of the twentieth century. If those of us who carried the physical and emotional burdens of that conflict can regain perspective and move on, so can those whose involvement was vicarious or who knew nothing of the war other than ideology and legend." This last passage is probably the most unsettling part of Kerry's book and one that every advocate of the Anyone-But-Bush 2004 election strategy should read before heading to the polling station in November.

In this one passage, Kerry seeks to justify the millions of people slaughtered by the U.S. military and its surrogates during the twentieth century, suggests that concern about U.S. war crimes in Vietnam is no longer necessary, and dismisses the antiwar movement as the work of know-nothings.

Kerry and his comrades in the progressive internationalist movement are as gung-ho about U.S. military action as their counterparts in the White House. The only noteworthy difference between the two groups battling for power in Washington is that the neocons are willing to pursue their imperial ambitions in full view of the international community, while the progressive internationalists prefer to keep their imperial agenda hidden behind the cloak of multilateralism.


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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Wow, hadn't seen this.......thanks! I was trying to find Brzezinski's
discussion on U.S. foreign policy (recently on CSPAN). It will be interesting to compare what he says with the New Democrats plan.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. I usually have taken a bit of offense
when people tell me that there is "no difference" between the two parties. I've always believed that the Democrats stood for the better things about America, and that they were working--however flawed they themselves were personally--to ensure that those better things were given priority. A very good friend of mine wrote a script in 1997 about a government conspiracy, and as he was researching it he became more and more agitated by what he was learning. He told me back then that both parties wanted the same thing; the only difference was that the Dems smiled at you as they stabbed you in the back. I rejected that notion altogether.

But he also said something else that has stuck in my mind very starkly lately: he said, "It takes very little excuse for the President to suspend the Constitution. All we need is a big enough threat of attack on our country, and all our rights are out the window."

Rather prescient, I'd say.

I no longer take offense at people who blast the DNC.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I simply want the Dems to define their policy regarding Iraq,
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 01:47 AM by Dover
the Middle East, Oil, etc. I want them to spell out the differences if there are any. Their argument for diplomacy or difference in method aside, what are their ultimate goals for this country and what role do they see us playing in the global 'family'?

I haven't heard this from them, so how do I know what we're getting?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. They have
If you haven't heard it, it's because you don't want to.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. I hate how Democrats would rather blame Democrats than hold Bush
accountable for his own actions.

Do you really think Bush wouldn't have done something to get his way in Iraq if HRC voted no? He still would have gotten his way AND he would have been able to characterize Democrats as anti-national security pansy-assed doves.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. how about blaming the united nations
i agree, we could do the same with the united nations and blame them for passing that resolution. since the bush people went around claiming that the resolution supported what they did. even though bush did not follow it or the iwr.

and remember, at the time of the iwr and the un resolutions there were no inspectors in iraq.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. Political hedging. Like it or not its the nature of politics--both sides
Edited on Sat Apr-17-04 02:30 AM by tom_paine
n/t
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes
"Is the lust after oil and positioning in the Middle East actually a bipartisan goal, with only an argument over method?"

With the exception of maybe 23 members of Congress. Kucinich, Byrd, B. Graham and Kenney being four I can think of right now all others voted in favor.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
19. Who didn't want inspections???
Who? Anybody? The alternative was continued sanctions and suffering for the Iraqi people. Who wanted that? She regrets Bush didn't use the Authorization properly and allow the inspections process to continue and to work properly with the world community. What's so goddamn controversial about that?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
22. The idea here is to win the 2004 elections. There are quite a few...
...GOPers and conservative Democrats that are regretting their vote for the NeoCons in 2000, but are not yet ready to say that the war in Iraq is totally illegal and was completely unecessary. Let's get their votes first, and then settle this question after the election.

That's assuming that we have elections...I'm sensing that the NeoCons are growing increasingly more desperate to hold on to their illegally gained political, economic, and military power.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
23. you have to also consider
WHO they were giving this power to: Bush and the PNAC crew.
If they weren't aware of how nuts these folks are, I don't know where they have been.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
24. My understanding of the Democrats
who voted "yes" was that the "yes" vote was based upon lies told by the administration in addition to being contingent upon UN approval. If the lies that they were told were not lies, but true, and Saddam really had WMD pointed at us, ready to fire at any minute (I know, the idea is ridiculous) and the Democrats had voted "no" what would we be saying now if Saddam had lobbed some sarin gas into the NY subways. Of course, it was all lies, but the "yes" voters couldn't be certain of that. But, to top it all off, Bush* NEVER EVER got UN approval. BUSH LIED!!!

All I can say is I doubt any of them would have voted for this if they had known that Bush was outright telling baldfaced lies and would not even keep his promise to involve the UN. Should they have known better? Maybe they should, but I'm not about to "throw out the baby with the bath water" and discount everything they say and do from now own. No, I'm not even going to hate them for it. I'm plenty disappointed though.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bath water,
nor am I suggesting voting against the Dems in November. I want to know what their vision for America is....regarding Iraq, Oil, and other parts of the world where we clearly have "interests".
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. When Saddam did have wmd, he didn't use them against the US (nt)
nt
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
27. They were dead wrong to vote to give a fool who shouldn't be allowed
to cross the street by himself, the authority to bomb anyone he pleases. He's a homicidal maniac for God's sake.
They were wrong to give up the Constitutional authority of the Congress to declare war and they know it. But they are as stubborn as the Bush Crime Family. Most of them WANTED war in the ME because they want to steal the oil. They know our country, which cannot survive without oil, has no sources and they have to steal it now. If it's not Iraq, it will be Iran, if not Iran, it will be Venezuela, if not Venezuela, it will be Cuba (they have oil)...and our Congress will always support the theft.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
28. Hillary should have asked
Katie Couric if she made a mistake by letting the world fly up her colon.
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