SF Chronicle: F*ck the Alamo, a racist symbol like the Confederate flag

[PfcHammer]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/04/12/DDG08635SU1.DTL

As the guy who wrote on the billboard at 24th and Valencia sometime in the night last week phrased it, before what he wrote in orange spray paint was papered over with a new canvas, "F -- 'The Alamo.' "

To many Mexican Americans, there's no more succinct, if impolite, wording to get across how repulsed one of the biggest minority groups in the country - - and certainly the largest in California and Texas -- is by that dilapidated mission-turned-fortress-turned-tourist-attraction in San Antonio, Texas. What's intriguing, though, given the release Friday of the big-budget movie "The Alamo," is how many people apparently don't get this.

<chop>

[WoodrowFan]

1. I was just there

Was in San Antonio for a Conference last week. Saw the Alamo. Wasn't impressed. Rolled my eyes a lot, ESPECIALLY at the reference to the "Shrine to Texas Freedom."

The city is nice however, especially the Riverwalk.

[Yupster]

29. Current Alamo doesn't do a good job of

showing you just how big the fort that the Texicans defended was. It was six times the size of the current place you can visit. The walls were where the buildings are across the current plaza and across the current street.

The Alamo was indefensible because it was way too big for the small garrison protecting it. To add to the problem, the Alamo had quite a few cannons, each one serviced by 5 men. Therefore over a third of the few defenders were cannon crews leaving barely 100 to man many hundreds of yards of wall. A tough task when you can only shoot 2-3 times a minute. I read somewhere if the defenders were equally spaced about the walls, there was one rifleman for each 20 feet of wall. Don't know if that was an exaggeration.

[WoodrowFan]

44. I saw that

The San Antonio paper had a diagram showing where the fort was laid out over the modern street. It was part of a article about the new movie. I just expected more actual relics dug up by archaeologists.

[Florida_Geek]

2. I'm a true Texan

and love the Alamo. It is a major piece of Texas history.

[buycitgo]

5. are YOU the one who started with the Condi thing there?

I put it on the desktop of our teachers' lounge computer

only lasted a day, and I haven't had time to put it back

I had the Bush turkey pardon one on there for awile, and the one with Kofi Anan, where he's got that dopey look on his face, while doing the thumbs up

[Florida_Geek]

10. that was me,

somebody posted a site that you could create bumber stickers and I created that one ....

[leftistagitator]

6. I'm a true Texan too, and I don't

The Texan independence war was evil. My people came into Texas promising to obey Mexican laws and to adopt Mexico as our country. Then the first chance we got, we slaughtered them and took their land. Now we talk of the stand at the Alamo as if it was some heroic act of goodness, when nothing could be further from the truth. It's a major piece of our history alright, just not one I like to get reminded of.

[EstimatedProphet]

8. Interesting

I am not a Texan, but my mother loves in San Antonio. Saw it at Christmas. Took the walkthrough and everything.
the history I was taught says that Santa Ana was a tyrant, and intensely greedy. I haven't heard any of this stuff before.

[leftistagitator]

11. Santa Anna was a bastard

A despicable coward who sold out democracy and his own people. That doesn't change the fact that the land I'm living on was taken from the Mexican people. Too late to change that now, obviously, but time didn't make that wrong right. Of course, the rest of America was taken from the Native Americans, but people no longer idolize that period like some do the Texas war for independence.

[Goldust]

48. You can't be that ignorant of your own history.

Texas was not "taken from the Mexican people." The Mexican people and Anglo settlers revolted against a military dictatorship. If it was "taken from the Mexican people," why then did Mexican people fight to "take" it, and why was a Mexican, Lorenzo de Zavala, named the first vice-president of the Republic of Texas?

[leftistagitator]

51. Yeah, we were all about brotherhood with the Tejano people

That was why right after the war we siezed all of their land and relegated them to 3rd class citizenry for the next hundred years. There were all sorts of promises about a great republic, enough to convince some of the locals to join up, but don't even try to sell me the bs that the Republic of Texas was anything but a white man's republic. If you don't think Mexicans are still bitter about Texas, then you're the one who's ignorant of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Revolution

[Sandpiper]

12. Santa Anna was a corrupt and inept politician

But what your US history book probably never told you is that what really got the white settlers shorts in a bunch, was that Santa Anna decided to abolish slavery in Texas.

The Texas war of "independence" was largely about white guys fighting for the right to keep their slaves in chains. One of the first acts of the Republic of Texas was to pass a law prohibiting free blacks from moving there.

[Maestro]

17. I don't know if "largely" is applicable

but yes, the white guys fighting did not want to make Texas a country without slaves.

Are you sure Santa Anna abolished slavery? I thought Spain abolished slavery before that, but I could be wrong. I know that as far back as the 1500's Bartolmé de las Casas, a catholic friar, was championing the rights of enslaved indigenous peoples in Mexico by Spain.

[Sandpiper]

20. No, it was abolished first in Mexico in 1829

Then in Texas in 1830. Here's an exerpt of a good article about the politics of the Alamo.


"Mexico had a politically active abolitionist movement . In September of 1829 slavery was prohibited in Mexico. Because the politically connected Texans were outraged, one month later, the law was changed to allow slavery only in Texas. A few months later in early 1830, Mexico altered its policy under a new government that was less interested in catering to Texas. Mexico passed a law that prohibited further American settlement, and banned importation of additional slaves into Texas. The Mexican abolition movement, following the pattern seen around the world, had apparently pressured for more restrictions. This was a strict proviso, but for the Texans it was survivable, as they already had thousands of slaves within Mexico. The law must have created difficulties for the Texans and been a great source of irritation to them as they worked to develop their slave labour based agricultural economy. There were other grievances by this time, such as the amount of taxes the Texans were required to pay, but none struck home so much as the "bread and butter" issue of slavery. Without it, the Texans could not make a profit and ultimately would be out of business."

The rest at

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/Politics/Alamo.html

[Maestro]

30. Interesting but I still thought it was earlier

And I am not debating that it was or wasn't a factor. I am just saying that it was one of several for sure. Although you are right, you don't here much about it. In fact, from looking at that article, it is seems to be Irish, correct? I'll research too and see if I can come up with another date. I swear it was abolished earlier than that.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Padre Hidalgo abolished slavery in 1810.

In Guadalajara. Here's the Orozco mural in Guadalajara's Palacio de Gobierno. (It wraps around a stairwell--this is a "fish-eye" reproduction" of that great work.)



Of course, that was at the beginning of the Revolution. Hidalgo was captured & executed; abolition took a few years to become law. All the Latin American countries that won their independance in that era abolished slavery.

The desire of Anglo* settlers to have slaves was one reason for the revolt in Texas. Some who died at the Alamo were just adventurers; they didn't own slaves--or a pot to piss in, in some cases. And some were Tejanos.

(* Anglo, not White. The Germans who settled in Central Texas did not hold with slavery. They raised cotton using free labor & had a higher level of productivity than the slaveholders. Many of the Texans who later fought for the Union were German Texans.)

There's more to the Alamo's history than the battle, for those who are interested. Commemoration of the Texas Revolution has changed in recent years--especially at the site of the Battle of San Jacinto, just outside Houston. Of course, there are ragged re-enactors in the motley outfits of the Texian army. Now, there are many in the dashing post-Napoleonic Mexican uniforms--often mounted. And there is a ceremony to remember the Mexicans who died there.

[Maestro]

31. Should have looked here first

Good ole Padre Hidalgo. Although I thought the Spanish had abolished slavery while Mexico was under the Vice Roy Spanish government. Well, maybe not, they did have those horrible "enmiendas." Sorry don't know the English word but basically it was slave labor for the plantations or mining industries in Mexico.

[demosincebirth]

55. Slavery was abolished in Mexico long before 1810

Interesting read http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/slenchek/slslavery.html

[leftistagitator]

57. Not quite

from the link you provided

" While the Plan of Iguala, proposed by Augustin de Iturbe in 1820 had abolished slavery, it was not until 1824 that a Constitution was adopted that actually freed them. Even so, it was not until 1829 that the last slaves were freed. Slavery did survive in the part of Mexico that is now Texas. Indeed, Mexican efforts to free slaves played an important role in the formation of the Republic of Texas. It was largely fueled by the desire of " Gringo" slave owners to retain their chattels."

According to the link you provided slavery didn't end in Mexico till around the time of the Texan War of Independence, and was one reason for why the war happened. Good link.

[SemperEadem]

56. well of course-- it's easier on the consience

to slaughter people when they've been reduced to being evil animals not worthy of life.

[Lindacooks]

49. You're exactly right

and more people should learn this truth.

[9215]

43. The bravery of those who fought at the Alamo

is undeniable. The defenders killed about 3 of the enemy for 1 of their own and they wounded many more. Sam Houston kicked some serious ass after that.

I think the defenders were heroes.

[UTUSN]

3. Agreed. Got the Rebel Flag Removed

from my watering hole. A daunting achievement, since it was a poster, the Confed flag as backdrop to a voluptuous, scantily clad gal in front. There was a companion poster gal sans flag, so the owner instanteously ditched the flag gal. The Alamo *is* like that, hadn't thought of it.

[derby378]

4. Them's fightin' words

I view the Alamo is a memorial not just for the Texan and Tejano dead, but for the Mexican dead. Three Mexican soldiers died for every one Alamo defender - it was a very brutal battle.

Texans view the Alamo in roughly the same way Australians view Gallipoli - "we" got our butts kicked, but it was seen as a grueling stand against an overwhelming force.

A monument to racism? Please. I know about Texas' desire to legalize slavery helped motivate its push for independence, but this is too much.

[atreides1]

14. Actually

Some Australians that I knew when I was in the US Army view Gallipoli as just another example of the British Empire sacrificing its colonial troops for its own narrow agenda. Why get UK troops killed when you can send in the ANZACs and the Canadians.

By the way it was a force of Canadians that were used for the landings at Dieppe, and they paid for it dearly. Dieppe was for the lack of a better word an experiment to see if the allies could land an invasion force.

[rlpincus]

7. History defined as absolute....

...is rarely history. The Alamo is a multilayered story and writing it off as racist is as inaccurate as extolling it as unabashedly patriotic.

BTW, the movie was supposed to be much more of a multi-culti thing, but the inevitable edits reduced it to its more well-known core. The first cut had a ton more about the Mexican army, kind of like Stephen Harrigan's Gates of the Alamo, which I thought was a very good book.

I am surprised that the Shrub hasn't referenced it, being a Texan and all. Maybe he's wondering why there is a movie about a car rental company.

[texastoast]

23. Shrubito is not a Texan

He's from Connecticut and has merely lived here a while.

[Maestro]

9. Actually

I really don't quite equate the Alamo with the Confederate Flag. The Alamo isn't exactly a symbol that says anything derogatory towards Mexicans.

From an historical perspective the Alamo and the mission trail that extends south from San Antonio is quite interesting and whether you like it or not is part of how Texas went from being part of Spain, then Mexico, then its own country and ultimately part of the US. The blatantly racist views towards Mexicans, and any minority for that matter, didn't occur until until later. Heck, back then if you were bilingual or spoke Spanish or English nobody really cared. You just did what you needed to do to survive. Then towards the turn of the century came the hatred, the fear, the English only attitudes, the idea of being bilingual as some sort of whacko idea. The idea of being bicultural, unheard of and blatanly un-American. You know, all the stuff Cheney rails on about.

I haven't seen the movie so if it puts the Mexicans in a bad light unnecessarily, then I am sorry. It shouldn't be. It should be about a ruthless and barbaric time when Texans wanted to rule themselves. Actually, Mexico had a hard time serving its citizens in the Texas territory thus the desire for more English speaking citizens to be served by the then new United States. It really had nothing to do with hating Mexicans. The peoples actually got along quite well. But at the time, Mexico was ruled by an idiot who could not lead a nation politically. He only knew how to fight. Which brings me to my next point.

If you, as a Mexican, if you are or even if you aren't, want to get upset, get upset with Santa Anna. He served his country well while fighting for independence against Spain. Then all is newly found power and admiration went to his head. He became and arrogant boob as a leader of a country and is the one person responsible for losing more territory for Mexico than any other and set up the horrible cycle of leaders from which Mexico suffered for many, many decades. He was so bad as a leader they kicked him out of Mexico but incredibly he came back and served as presidente again horribly.

And a little background about me, I teach primarily Mexican children in a bilingual classroom in Texas. I am married to a Mexican-American, I speak Spanish and my grandfather was born in Mexico and his family lived there for 30 years until the Villistas kicked them out of Piedras Negras, Mexico in 1910 at the start of the Mexican Revolution.

Edit: Some very important Mexicans helped to form the Country of Texas also.

[No2W2004]

22. Thanks....

Exactly right....Everyone who fought for Texas independence was considered a "Texican" no matter where they came from. No one wanted to separate from Mexico until Santa Anna started breaking his agreements. There were many Texan heros who were born in Mexico.

[Maestro]

33. No problem

I love Mexico and it depresses me to see what is happening down there right now because of the drugs and I hold the US partly responsible for that. Then I'll talk about environmental rules that are all but ignored in Mexico. Oh God, don't get me started. My poor Mexico....

[Bridget Burke]

25. San Antonio was tri-lingual for a long time.

Most signs were in English, Spanish & German. The anti-German hysteria of WWI ended that. (Guess they decided to get rid of the Spanish at the same time.)

In today's San Antonio, some English is still spoken! My own Spanish is pretty bad, but better than El Presidente Estupido.

[Maestro]

32. Yeah, he can sure butcher that Spanish

Believe me!!!!!!!!!! I get so mad when people say he is bilingual. What a crock!

And yes, you are right. Germans and Czechs played a big role in forming Texas. Heck much of Central Texas and the Hill Country is German and Czech.

[FreedomReload]

13. This Review Has A Better Grasp Of The Film

http://filmthreat.com/Reviews.asp?Id=5992

"It is not hard to see similarities between the battle for the Alamo and the current quagmire in Iraq. Both situations were born of fanciful political marketing, blatant lies, inadequate leadership and woefully incompetent military planning. One cannot help feel queasy noticing the film's vague talk of bringing freedom to Texas alongside the American introduction of slavery to a territory which never knew it--mirror that to today's talk of bringing democracy to Iraq albeit without the basic concept of one man/one vote, which is the foundation of genuine democracy. Grand notions of liberty, it seems, is political Silly Putty that can be stretched and distorted across the ages."

[noiretextatique]

16. thanks...the similarities to iraq are noteworthy

and it's time for america to stop white-washing this chapter (and others) of its history.

[SilasSoule]

15. Hey Rlpincus

The Alamo is a multilayered story and writing it off as racist is as inaccurate as extolling it as unabashedly patriotic.


Very well said and welcome to DU!!

[slinkerwink]

18. *gasp* you can't diss the Alamo!

[DrWeird]

19. Alamo is like The Passion.

Like King Arthur and Camelot, there's no actual evidence that "the Alamo" ever actually happened, so I don't see why people are trying to pass this off as history.

[texastoast]

21. Hmm

Well that is certainly a different take on it. What would you consider "actual evidence"?

[TexasMexican]

28. I've never heard that one before.

explain.

[Maestro]

34. What are you smokin?

That is rich. I suppose you don't believe the Holocaust actually ocurred as well.

[TexasMexican]

26. The Alamo = A Mexican Victory

Its still surrounded by us Mexicans to this day. :p

[Maestro]

36. La Reconquista

[texastoast]

42. Right You Are!

How can one ever separate the two? Living away from Texas for a while made me so homesick for our primo food, backyard fiestas every Sunday, and, God knows, Pacifico beer.

One can say Texas is part of the U.S., but you and I know better. Texas is just as Mexican as it ever was and this part of Mexico is just as Texan. I wouldn't want it any other way.

[TexasMexican]

27. BTW I hear the fake Alamo seems more authentic than the real one.

The one that they build out in the middle of nowhere for one of the older Alamo movies.

I hear it somewhat of a tourist attraction if you know where it is at.

I love San Antonio though.

[AskAlice]

35. Why go see a movie where the good guys lose?

It makes no sense.

[Maestro]

38. Because

the Battle of San Jacinto when the Texicans caught the Mexicans napping was such a lop-sided victory it wouldn't make for a good movie.

Edit: At least I think it was San Jacinto, near Houston right? Oh man, if I get that wrong I am going to be embarrassed or as Bushie would say in his horrible Spanish embarazado. For those that speak Spanish, you know why I am laughing.

P.S. It means pregnant even though it looks like embarrassed.

[Shakespeare]

46. Yup, San Jacinto.

On April 21st (San Jacinto Day, naturally). All Aggies know that one. :-)

[Maestro]

52. Phew thanks.

-nt

[NickB79]

45. Nope, it makes no sense

It does sucks, the good guys lose all of Texas in the end to the United States. Sad to see.

[proud patriot]

37. didn't Ozzy pee on the Alamo ?

[Maestro]

41. Yeah

I think he got banned from the city for a while. God, the eighties ruined Ozzy physically; way too much drink and drugs. The nineties weren't too much better.

[DoNotRefill]

39. I thought....

that a fair number of people fighting there on the independence side were actually of mexican descent. Is this wrong?

[Maestro]

40. No that is not wrong.

There were many Mexicans fed up with Santa Anna and his ineptness.

[Goldust]

47. Mexicans HATE Santa Anna

They conisder him a traitor.

And what about the many Tejanos (native-Mexican Texans) who died defending the Alamo. When Santa Anna dissolved the Constitution of 1824, he robbed them of many civil liberties. One of the first things Santa Anna did upon entering Texas was massacre Tejanos who opposed his dictatorship.

The Texas Revolution was a fight between a military dictator and Anglo settlers and native Mexicans who opposed his rule.

Unfortunately, the issue has been hijacked by race-baiters ON BOTH SIDES who care more about grabbing attention than learning the real history. Movies like John Wayne's version don't do much to help.

[noiretextatique]

50. sounds a lot like IRAQ, from the ugly american perspective, of course

perhaps it's even more complicated a story than that.

[9215]

53. The bravery of the defenders of the Alamo

is undeniable. The defenders killed about 3 of the enemy for 1 of their own and they wounded many more. Sam Houston kicked some serious ass after that.

I think the defenders were heroes.

[Tellurian]

54. And the "private" joke after the election, was meeting in the Alamo Room.

to celebrate, the bushwacking of mankind.

It all fits, doesn't it?