Clash of civilizations!!!! It’s on?

[Sterling]

Let me first make it clear that I think 9-11 is a giant cover up and possibly and Gulf of Tokin, "Remember the Maine", Operation Northwood’s style scam. I protested the war and have devoted most of my time to activism since 9-11.

However I fear at this point that this war is “on” whether we like it or not at this point. The war I am referring to is the West v Islam clash. Not Since the Crusades will we have seen this kind of open hostility between the two factions. With the choice of Bush and Kerry at this point I cannot see how this war is not destined to widen. At this point I am not convinced any leader can back us out of this world war.

If this is our reality are we forced to choose sides? At some point we are all going to be a lot more personally involved and effected by events. Is their any point that we can see ourselves standing in formation with the freepers out of necessity?

Anyway were screwed, I think that much is obvious. Sorry to bum anyone out.

[kalian]

1. I'm not bummed....

I realized this back on 9/11 when all the lies started to spew forth.
We were being lied to back then, and during the subsequent 2.5 years.
The lies have not stopped nor will they ever stop. The elites have
decided its time to "thin out" the world's population...whether
we like it or not.

And then there's this little issue called "Peak Oil"...but that's
an entirely different story...

[AVID]

2. still bummed about the sugar bowl

:(

[billbuckhead]

3. Sorry to bum anyone out by saying Bush and Kerry are the same

Gee, who does that sound like?

[Sterling]

18. Not the same but....

policy in Iraq will not lead to any real difference at this point. This is not to say Kerry will have the exact same policy. I think Kerry will send more troops and fight the war in more "effective" way but it's too late. The damage is done. "It's ON"

[Classical_Liberal]

4. I think the more important war is between secularism and fundyism

we have those in both the West and the Islamic world. The Christianist in the Bush administration especially among the freepers are closer to home threats.

[salinen]

5. Me too.

It is really not alright with fundies that we are not "cloning." The modern day inquisitors will use modern day weapons to defeat "devil worshiper", not those messy swords.

[FlemingsGhost]

7. Agreed. Religion and traditional notions of God are evolving

Those who have the most to fear (lose) from the change, are lashing out.

[SpartacusSC]

10. I won't concede Christianity to those folks.....

I hate to see the whole debate defined in secular vs. religious terms, because in my view of Christianity those who choose to impose such a narrow and vengeful view of the world while claiming to speak for God aren't reading the same Gospels.

I've never read: "blessed are the war-makers, for they kick much butt".
I've never read: "blessed are the loud, arrogant and violent, for they shall take what they want."

I am a Christian. I believe that we were given fine minds and a conscience for a reason, and we are expected to use those gifts for good. Granted, determining what is "good" is not an easy thing, but I'm pretty certain that there isn't much room for greed, personal aggrandizement, or hatred.

It isn't my place to judge them on their faith, but it is my place to assert mine. I won't concede the meaning of that faith.

[SayitAintSo]

14. Welcome to DU SpartacusSC !

From a fellow SC DUer !

SayitAintSo

[SpartacusSC]

16. Thanks man! I'm not alone after all! :)

[Classical_Liberal]

17. I said secular vs fundy

fundy isn't christianity.

[SpartacusSC]

26. I know, but that is why I posted.....

You read my post, in which camp does it belong? I'm neither secular nor "fundy", which is why I had a problem with the terms of the debate.

Lets try another set of terms....like open-minded vs. dogmatic, or perhaps tolerant vs. intolerant.

Secularism can be dogmatic and fundamentalist (like Stalinism), just as religion can (in my own view should) be open and accepting.

That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if my attempt was bungled or unclear.

[JCMach1]

6. No way no how... this CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS

idea comes from the same people who brough you the domino theory.

-The increase and promotion Democratization and liberalization have become the norm across a good part of the Arab world. However, they are creating Democracy on the their terms. They don't want any help thank you very much.

-Where it hasn't, poverty and ignorance are the chief problems... not Islam.

-For the Iraqis, it is about NATIONALISM-- not Islam. Even when the politics are worded in the language of struggle, what they are experiencing in Iraq is a rebirth of that emotion.

-Are there religious radicals... of course they are. I suspect that these groups represent no more than the same percentage of like-minded radicals of various sorts in the U.S. However, in the case of the Arab world, they are poorer and more desperate.

-I will also remind everyone that the region is changing, evolving, and morphing at warp speed. It is little wonder 'so called' regional experts were wrong about their predictions following the war.

[Character Assassin]

25. Sorry, but that's just empty, echoing pablum

The increase and promotion Democratization and liberalization have become the norm across a good part of the Arab world.

Sure it has. Please cite specific sources and examples to support your claim. Please define 'a good part'.

However, they are creating Democracy on the their terms. They don't want any help thank you very much.

Bullshit. Democracy 'on their own terms'? Perhaps you meant 'theocracy' but just mistyped.

Where it hasn't, poverty and ignorance are the chief problems... not Islam.

Where, in this case, meaning almost everywhere, and you left out tribalism.

For the Iraqis, it is about NATIONALISM-- not Islam. Even when the politics are worded in the language of struggle, what they are experiencing in Iraq is a rebirth of that emotion.

You provide zero evidence of this. It is impossible to see nationalism for a territory so segemented as the former nation of Iraq.

Are there religious radicals... of course they are. I suspect that these groups represent no more than the same percentage of like-minded radicals of various sorts in the U.S. However, in the case of the Arab world, they are poorer and more desperate.

I submit you are utterly unfamiliar and/or unaquainted with either religion or demographics in Iraq.

I will also remind everyone that the region is changing, evolving, and morphing at warp speed. It is little wonder 'so called' regional experts were wrong about their predictions following the war.

Really? Just how, exactly, is it 'changing, evolving and morphing' at warp speed?

[sam sarrha]

8. I will disagree with u when i see so called moderate Muslims stand up and

and denounce the terrorists.

I was in an Islamic republic int the peace corps.. it 1973.. the Moors were cool.. they didn't think much of the Arab Muslims stealing their children and selling them in the open air slave markets in Dakar, Senegal.. the same slave market was in operation while W * spoke out against slavery in Senegal a while back.

It seems to be regional extremism exported and financed by the Saudi Royal Family.. Fueled by the inhuman treatment of people by USA suppered governments.. Egypt, Israel.. and wake up!! it is GREATLY about the illegal invasion of the occupied territories by Israel and our outright support and financing of their projects and the fact that they kill THOUSANDS of Palestinians with our weapons, the terrorism is bad in Israel, but is fueled by the killing of Palestinians.. last year about a thousand children many yo most were shot in the head with rubber bullets without much rubber on them.. and about 9000 adults. Israel is grabbing all the good land ad water sources.. It is a mess. Many disagree about this but they better speak before they bury their heads in the sand or they will chock on the sand.

[JCMach1]

9. When you say terrorist... who do you mean?

Also, I will not defend the Saudis-- my students won't even do that.

Even they are liberalizing now though and VERY quickly... It's probably too late for KSA in the long run... but they are trying.

Depending on which country and situation we are talking about, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[sam sarrha]

22. people who kill innocent people in the name of Allah

[2cents]

11. Disagree

If it was truly "on", we would be taking out Saudi Arabia.

Extremists want it to be on, and opportunists are making a fortune off extremism.

Hopefully, most folk, on both sides, will realize their being played.

[Sterling]

19. I think that is coming.

I think if things keep heating up in Iraq the war will spread throughout the ME.

[2cents]

23. If that happens...

...then I would agree - it's on.

[Ysabel]

12. there are always alternatives...

sterling...

remember - nothing is all one thing or the other...

there are always alternatives...

love you - you hillbilly new yorker...! :)

[Sterling]

20. Yes but no one that will ever see power in the US will be that....

"radical" :eyes:

[Beam Me Up]

13. the elites want us to fight oneanother so we won't turn on them

I truly do believe it is that simple. How many of them are there--the elite transnationals who control the vast banking systems and primary resources of this planet? A million? Two million? This is a planet of 6 Billion souls--who gave this very small minority THE RIGHT to determine the future of the entire human race? They may think their rights are "GOD GIVEN"--I don't.

[EDT]

15. Clash of Civilizations has been "On" since 1096, just in a peak again.

Long before Dems and Repubs, Christians were roasting Muslims on spits outside city walls, while Muslims were hanging captured Christians on hooks from those same city walls.

Dems and Repubs are a dismissable group that will just get an asterisk in history, if we could get a book on Religious Crusades a thousand years from now.

This is just a peak in a long battle that will go on till everyone gets smart and gets atheist.

[Sterling]

21. Well that is partly true.

Bush stirred it up yet agian. It need not be this way.

[SpartacusSC]

24. History is what we make of it......

and atheists, the religious, and even the apathetic have been killing one another for this and that since time began. For any individual to ascribe their own erstwhile definition of universal right and wrong to it is silly, IMO. People have great potential for both good and evil, but they are fallible - most folks have a conscience and will know the difference (however dimly they might perceive it), regardless of their actions and the rationalizations they use to justify those actions.

Nietzsche was an atheist and he was smart - does that mean his philosophy is worthwhile? I dare say Realpolitik folks like Rumsfeld would admire him.