There are days that I hate us

[Tinoire]

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Media/2003/picture.shtml

Shock & Awe Gallery

A little slow to load but well worth it.

This is all the Dems need to air on TV.

=======

Saturday, April 10, 2004
11/4
Baghdad witnesses a general protest today, in both governmental and private sectors.
You could hear explosions around the city most of the time today.
Yesterday, bombing and shooting hardly stopped between the two sides.
People in mosques are praying for god to be with Iraqi's and to support them and give them victory against those who hurt them and kill unarmed civilians.
Some people came from Falluja as refuges, I saw many families that came to stay with their relatives here, the Americans used cluster bombs against them, and kept them with neither electricity nor water.
The grave yard of the city is completely filled; they are using the football field as a grave yard temporarily.
The Americans allowed women and children to leave the city, but prevented men.
People of Falluja say that those who messed up the four bodies of the American soldiers aren’t from Falluja, and they keep wondering why don’t the Americans use their intelligence to capture them instead of killing 450 people from Falluja, or is it just revenge?
Fighters inside Falluja have old Kalashnikov guns, and RPGs.
Americans are using the latest hi-tech weapons ever made, the regular and forbidden ones too.
And they pretend that Iraqi's are attacking and hurting them?
What is the revenge policy good for?
It will plant hate and desire to revenge in the hearts of Iraqi's for coming decades.
Who is benefiting from all of this?
My heart is sad and broken.
And I have no answer.
One thing left to say, I want to condemn and express my deep sadness for the accidents of kidnapping civilians, Japanese or any others, we refuse this irresponsible action and we pray and ask god that they all go home safely.
***
news are bad and the situation is getting worse and worse.
Residential neighbors are being attacked by the Americans as soon as any bullets come towards them in the dark; they enter the neighbor, shoot randomly and get out.
These are the orders.
Today, we have an interview with an American newspaper, I am going to call the neighbor's kids who just came from Falluja yesterday, to tell the reporter about the great achievements of the American heroes against the civilians there, and I want American people to read that and know it, and to ask their government about what they are doing there.
Those who came to "liberate" us from Saddam have caused mass graves, except that this time, it's in front of the whole world.
What are you going to do about it?
The eyes of children which is filled with horror, carries that question.


# posted by faiza : 3:31 PM

http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/

[sasquatch]

1. Hey Tinoire! Who's that in your your avetar?

:shrug:

[Tinoire]

6. Rachel Corrie. US ISM Activist deliberately bull-dozed by the Israel Army

as she tried to stop them from bull-dozing homes in the Gaza Strip.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Statement_Rachel_Corrie_031703.htm
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=1866&CategoryId=23

Same peace cause... different country.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

31. WTF?

:wtf: :wtf:

[sasquatch]

32. The guy intentionally ran over a 20 year old women twice

If that doesn't clear it up for you I don't know what will.

[JohnLocke]

34. There are two problems I see.

1) You made a snap judgment of a complex incident based on a drive-by post. I find it disconcerting that you would form conclusions without doing at least a little research. There is much doubt and uncertainty about what happened that day.

2) Your use of "Zionist" is strange. First, you don't know if the bulldozer operator was a Zionist. Second, even if he was, what does that have to do with the incident?

[sasquatch]

41. "Snap Judgement"

You're the one that put my god damned post into quote marks then posted this smilie to accompany:wtf:

So please watch your own hypocracy when you argue with me ok. Anyone with the sense god gave a cockroach can look up what happened Racheal Corrie. Anyone with the sense God gave my housecats knows that the guy ran over a unarmed peace activist twice. The man that did it is a "Zionist" because he decided to go ahead and drive over her. Then he did it again for some sick reason that the greatest of Sigmund Freud psycologist could only know.

[JohnLocke]

49. What?

"The man that did it is a 'Zionist' because he decided to go ahead and drive over her..."

That doesn't make any sense.

[Tinoire]

36. Hey Sas my friend, give it up...

Let me condense the hasbara for you.

Rachel Corrie was a Leftist Retard.

Rachel Corrie burned a paper rendition of an American Flag.

Rachel Corrie "leapt" in front of that bull-dozer.

The bull-dozer operator, shortly afterwards acquitted, didn't see that orange clad woman in his front sights.

Chalk it up to yet another accident :eyes: by an occupying army that, just like the occupying army in Iraq is in dire need of remedial marksmanship training because these are all "accidents".

Even in death, certain people dare revile her as a "terrorist sympathizer". Ignore them.

The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) ROCKS!

Rachel Corrie. Adam Shapiro. God bless you for understanding what it means to "Love your neighbour" and to stand up for peace & justice.

[TexasMexican]

40. I havent really read too much into the Rachel Corrie Incident however...

common sense leads me to believe that bulldozers generally arent very fast, nor are they very quiet. You can correct me if I'm wrong on those two assumptions.

With that being said its not very likely that it chased her around and ran her down, nor is it likely that it snuck up on her.

She was determined to stand in front of that bulldozer, and that bulldozer driver was determined to drive it forward.

Two stubborn people and the one with the bulldozer won.

[sasquatch]

42. But you don't disagree that the driver intentinaly wanted to kill her?

[TexasMexican]

44. No I dont.

I'm pretty sure he did want to kill her, unless he was an idiot and thought she would just move out of the way.

That being said I'm not sure what the laws in Israel are on this, are the soliders order to or legally allowed to just run over people if they try to block thier way. Again I dont know these specifics but I think that is probably the case. Israel likes to protect its troops from legal reprecussions just as much as we do.

You can ask the question whether it was morally right to do it even if he did have the legal right.

However to me that really doesnt matter.

If Racheal wanted to martyr herself to prove that Israelis are murderers well she did it.

But I personally think it was ignorant of her to go to the otherside of the world to go put her life in danger and get herself killed.

I cant help but thinking she was just a stupid rich white girl.

People in other parts of the world just generally dont like Americans anymore, especially white Americans, we've definately earned much of thier scorn.

This can cause trouble for any average American just going around the world travelling. Many of them get in trouble, hurt, and killed even when they werent looking for trouble. Like those Americans that died in the Phillipines.

So when I hear of some white American who goes out looking to cause trouble like this girl obviously did, I cant say that I feel sorry for her. She went out looking for it, and it found her.

[RapidCreek]

55. I'll keep that in mind the next time some job stealing wetback

Walks in front of my truck. I'll keep it in mind while I'm backin back over his burrito eatin ass, too. Fact is...alot of us hard working Mercins don't like them beaners no more, specially them brown ones...they've definitely earned our scorn. Them fuckers come over here a lookin fer truble an I'm a gonna give it to em.

irony/off

RC

[TexasMexican]

68. wrong.

Real classy of you there to imply that I'm a wetback.

However you are wrong. Most Mexicans who come to the US are looking for work, not trouble. The few that do come here looking for trouble will find it though and I have no sympathy for them. What have Mexicans done to earn your scorn?

Americans have done alot to earn the scorn of others on the other hand. We are arrogant after all and always interfering with everyones business.

There is definately a difference between what Rachel Corrie did and what you are comparing it to.

You would be guilty at the least of vehiclular manslaughter becuase atleast here on American soil (maybe not in Iraqi soil) we value life and have laws against that.

In the middle-east that is not true and it maybe have been completely legal for the IDF to run that girl over. What do they care about the life of some girl who got in there way.

[RapidCreek]

83. I didn't imply a damn thing. I don't imply.

If I wanted to call you a wetback that's exactly what I would have done.

Yea your right Rachel Corrie wasn't trying to steal anyones lively hood...she was trying to save someones home.

Perhaps prior to speaking so authoritatively on the laws of other countries, you should first learn to spell.

RC

[TexasMexican]

84. Grammer and Spelling Nazis

If bad grammar and spelling offend you so perhaps you should stay off the internet.

Now you are going off stating that Mexicans are trying to steal someone's livelyhood, thats a lot of bullshit right there.

Also I never spoke "authoritatively" about the laws of foreign countries, I dont know what they are, but its always good to assume that they arent in the best interest of Americans.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

47. Basically he threw debris on her and she got stuck

"... he dropped sand and other heavy debris on her, then the bulldozer pushed her to the ground where it proceeded to drive over her, fracturing both of her arms, legs and skull. She was transferred to hospital, where she later died. Another foreigner was also injured in the attack and has been hospitalized - at this stage his nationality is unknown."

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml


"She was raising her hands and yelling at the bulldozer driver to stop," Arraf said. "The bulldozer driver paid no attention. ... He buried Rachel with dirt, which ended up, obviously, knocking her down. Then he ran over her, and then reversed and ran over her again."

Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her.

It was not clear whether the bulldozer operator could hear protesters' yells over the sound of the machine.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

Twice.

[TexasMexican]

51. Umm no, thats unpossible.

From the picture it looks like a standard bulldozer, I dont see any throwing arms on it. Unless you mean the driver got out and threw stuf at her which I think is unlikely.

She stood infront of a bulldozer and got run over, she could have moved out of the way.

As for the debris holding her down, well it too was being pushed forward by the bulldozer, its not realy suprising that a bulldozer plows stuff forward with it.

She definately played a roll in her own death.

[Tinoire]

53. Whatever floats your boat

Keep excusing the IDF. Bad aim. Poor marksmanship. Fast bull-dozers. Journalists as slow moving as those Tecas Armadillos. :eyes:

Who cares what the spin is. It's all spin and I care not one whit for it whether at Little Green Footballs or here.

Go Sharon. Rah, rah, rah. :eyes: Bull-doze a few more homes. We'll always find people to excuse your atrocities.

:thumbsup: ;)

[TexasMexican]

62. What the hell are you babbelling about.

I'm not excusing the IDF or Israel or anything.

That driver most likely intentionally ran her over, althought since I dont know about the laws of that country or thier military he probably had the legal authority to do so.

I'm not questioning whether it was morally right or not, because that really doesnt matter if they get away with it.

What I do know is that an American women went to a part of the world where her life wasnt valued very much.

She put herself in that situation and ultimately her life was her responsiblity.

I dont go to foreign country where life is worth little, and intentionally put my life in danger, nor do most Americans. Its foolish to do so.

[Tinoire]

70. Babbling. It's spelled "babbling"

What is it with people who don't read?

[TexasMexican]

71. strawman?

so you are more concerned with my spelling than the issues I brought up?

Do you think its wise to go to foreign nations and stand infront of angry people driving heavy machinery?

[Tinoire]

73. Issues? What issues have you brought up?

You've regurgitated a bunch of tripe.

Next I expect to read something from you about how a conscientious American trying to protect an Iraqi family deliberately stood in the path of a speeding bullet.

[TexasMexican]

74. Is it wise...

for Americans to get involved in the affairs of others and deliberately put themselves in harms way, such as this girl did?

In hindsight, was it smart of her to stand in front of that bulldozer?

What do you think she was trying to prove?

Why didnt she get out of the way?

[Tinoire]

75. She could not get out of the way

She had the debris of a house being demolished thrown upon her. Concrete blocks. The driver stared her and the other protesters in the eyes as he deliberately ran her over. The Israeli Left was as outraged over this incident as is the American Left. There is honestly no excuse.

This was no accident.

[TexasMexican]

76. How did debris get thrown on her?

as far as I know bulldozers dont throw debris, they push it though.

I have no doubt that it wasnt an accident.

[Tinoire]

78. Research it

If you honestly, sincerely care, I'll go to the trouble of digging up the links for you.

This girl was no fool. Was no hero. I personally know her parents and a kinder, more conscientious couple, you couldn't hope to meet.

Rachel was no fool. She was a kind, compassionate person out to call attention to the plight of the Palestinians.

Several ISM activists were brutally murdered by the IDF for rocking the official "truth". All of them are accused of deliberately standing in the way of bull-dozers and bullets.

If you really care, which I am more and more believing that you do, PM me; I'll dig up the links for you.

[TexasMexican]

85. Sure

More links and info is always good.

I have no doubt that the IDF are killing and murdering Palestinians and activists on a fairly regular basis.

Its just that from the pictures that I've seen on this incident it appears to me that she could have gotten out the way, and I think she should have gotten out of the way.

I dont know what she was thinking, we cant know. Maybe she thought it could like that scene from the Tienemen Square incident, where that man stopped the column of tanks. Maybe she thought the driver would have some humanity and run her down, if she did she was wrong, and it cost her, her life.

Just for me, I know I wouldnt stand in front of a bulldozer tearing down someone's house.

If they were tearing down my house, I still wouldnt stand in front of it, althought I might contomplate using violence to stop them. Althought I guess in Israel in a similar situation the results might be the same as standing infront of the bulldozer,someone ending up dead.

[RapidCreek]

86. Interesting

You admit you don't know what you are talking about and then assert that ignorance should affirm a point you make.

What the fuck do you know about the value of the life of a women in Israel? Are you suggesting that Israelis are immoral murderers? Apparently that is exactly what you are saying. Which begs the question....why are we sending them 4 billion dollars a year?

You not excusing the IDF and Israel for the murder of an innocent civilian? If not, then what the fuck are you doing?

RC

[dpibel]

89. "Foreign country where life is worth little"

The foreign country of which you speak would be Israel where, we are given to understand, at least some lives are worth a great deal. It speaks ill of you that you so blithely say that about any country. Those Iraqi people crying over their dead children--do they feel that life is worth little?

But when you say that the country at issue does not value life, you risk running afoul of people much more sanguine on the issue than I.

[RapidCreek]

56. You should learn to spell.

Reading your posts is almost as funny as reading posts on Free Republic.

RC

[NeoConsSuck]

58. The Chinese tank stopped in it's tracks.

sorry pal, but civilized societies don't run over protesters with tanks OR bulldozers.

Why don't you post your bullshit elsewhere, possibly here:

http://www.freerepublic.com

[TexasMexican]

63. Israel != Civilized.

IMO most of the middle east is not civillized, and yes that includes Israel.

I have no clue why any American would want to go there.

There are lots of places in the world where life isnt valued as highly as we like to think it is. The Middle-East is one of those places.

So when you go there you are already taking a chance with your life, so I think anyone who goes to a place like that and goes and stands infront of a bulldozer is quite stupid.

[dpibel]

90. Words utterly fail

What would possess you to write that the middle east is not civilized.

I respectfully submit that a person capable of writing such a thing is uncivilized.

I'm not going to guess what you mean by "civilized," so if you'd like to run it down for me point-by-point I'd really be interested in discovering your definition.

And you speak, I guess, from the vantage point of the pinnacle of civilization, the USofgodblessitA, where we feature whole classes of people who are quite disposable, give not a hoot for the suffering of great swaths of children, and have corporate executives who are quite capable of balancing out potential liability exposure versus redesigns (the Pinto case comes to mind) and discover that it's cheaper to let a bunch of people die than recall some cars.

You may also be vaguely aware of a very popular term in modern American war theory: collateral damage. Please explain to me how the killing of some 10,000 Iraqi civilians in pursuit of WMDs, er, Saddam Hussein, I mean (honest--this time for sure) imposing democracy, demonstrates (1) the highest form of civilization and (2) a great regard for human life.

I mean, I actually would prefer to think that you're just joking around here. But I don't believe that's the case.

You really need to study up on the realities outside the borders of the greatest country ever to exist in the whole history of mankind. Because until you do, you're going to embarrass yourself badly, and, apparently, not even know you're doing it.

[Tinoire]

61. Unpossible. Just where does one pick up such a word?

Please... Save that crap for Little Green Footballs. That's the standard regurgitation there.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[TexasMexican]

72. Its a joke, makes about as much sense...

as a bulldozer throwing debris on top of someone.

A bulldozer can plow someone over with some debris, but it certainly cant throw it.

There was nothing preventing that girl from moving out of the way except her own stubborness.

[WVhill]

59. Not to add fuel to the fire but,

What Rachel Corrie did was very unsafe. On any construction jobsite, the newbies learn very quickly that equipment operators have limited visibility of objects close to the machine. A dozer operator is no exception.

Needless to say if you've been close to one of those machines, you know that any attempt to yell at an operator to get their attention is fruitless. The exhaust pipes on some of that stuff is big enough to stick your head in. Having said that, I'm sorry she died the way she did. I wish I had been there that day to take her aside and warn her as an old hand did me decades ago when I started my first construction job.

[jonnyblitz]

88. rachel corrie had more class in her baby finger

then any of these assholes that criticize her...

[BobDCousy2004]

81. My post

This is a war. Though soldiers do their best, they cannot prevent innocents from dying. If some civilians were to die for a greater cause of peace later on, wouldn't the sacrifice be worth it. If Saddam was in power, people would still suffer, and it would only be the innocents suffering.
I agree that the anti-war movement against Vietnam helped get our soldiers out of Vietnam. The soldiers were most likely in an un-winnable situation, where everyone was against them. However, getting our soldiers out of Vietnam caused horrific crimes against humanity by the Viet Cong on the South Vietnamese. If we get our soldiers out of Iraq now, chaos will reign in Iraq. The results of that would be far worse than if we were to keep our soldiers in. Kerry himself understands the consequences of getting our soldiers out now.
I would probably disagree with you with the whole Vietnam-Iraq parallel-quagmire thing. The situation we have in Iraq is very different than the one we had in Vietnam. In Iraq, the silent majority is actually accepting the soldiers, and the resisters leading the Fajullah attacks are well in the minority of Iraq. I do believe that Iraq can and will become a democratic society, and hopefully this will set an example for the rest of the Arabic world.
I agree that Saudi Arabia should not be our friends, and I think Saudi Arabia is more of an enemy than a friend. I believe that they are probably at least indifferent to the 9-11 terror attacks. However, I believe we can't piss them off. Saudi Arabia is the world's leading oil producer, and they produce more oil than the rest of the OPEC countries combined. However, if we rely on our own wells more, maybe the US can take a tougher stance on Saudi Arabia for their human rights issue as well as the issue with terrorism.
In my views of the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict, I believe that both sides are at fault. Israel is not helping with the whole wall thing and everything, but Palestine needs to stop with the whole suicide bombing. Arafat and Sharon, I believe, are not being part of
the solution. Anyway, Israel might be more likely to achieve peace with its neighbors by not forming a Palestinian state, but giving the lands to its neighbors. Gaza to Egypt, West Bank to Jordan, and Golan Heights to Syria. This will not only help Israel achieve peace, but it will help the citizens there to be placed under an established government to help repair the damage done to the country and set up infrastructure immediately.

I hope you consider these ideas seriously, and if you do want to debate, I'll be happy to discuss these ideas with you. Please no comments about where the WMD's are, I have no idea, and that is not important now that we are in Iraq. Send your email-comments to [e-mail]

[Character Assassin]

54. Newp. Fools defending fools defending murderers are all irrelevant

As is paying no heed to those who subscribe to mindless repeating of slogans.

[walmartsucks]

60. How is this any different?

Apparently it is okay to mourn her here because she was an advocate for the Palestinians. However, when the Christian missionaries were killed in Iraq 2 or 3 weeks ago nobody on DU had any pity for them. I remember people here saying things to the effect of, "Well, what did those idiot fundies expect in a war zone?" Or, "They should mind their own f***iing business and stay the hell out of Iraq!" Well, guess what? If Rachel had minded her own f***ing business and stayed the hell out of the West Bank this never would've happened.

[TexasMexican]

64. definately.

[dpibel]

91. Well, I suppose

You can try to analogize between Rachel Corrie, who was actually doing something to try to stop a morally reprehensible course of action (of course, why would I think that you would consider bulldozing innocent people's houses in order to build settlements to be morally reprehensible?) and a group of missionaries who have arrived to show the heathens that their ways are sinful and teach them how to ask Jesus into their hearts.

You could try to make that analogy. I just don't see how you could expect anyone to take you seriously.

Oh! Welcom to DU. Please enjoy your visit.

[Jax]

67. Deliberately bulldozed

and murdered.

I hate george fucking b*sh. I hate ariel sharon. The two biggest and most well funded terrorists in the world.

Jax

[shadu]

2. I hope there is no hell

I have watched and understood everything in front of me.
And yet I plan to do nothing.
Yes, I will march and call and, of course, this will
accomplish nothing. I know this. I hope there is no hell.

[Tinoire]

8. Welcome to DU Shadu

I understand totally but unlike you, I really hope there is a hell. There are certain people who MUST end up there. That had me in tears.

Is it any wonder the

US Demands Al-Jazeera Leave Fallujah, Stop Airing Footage of Destruction

<snip>

"American forces declared al-Jazeera must leave before any progress is made to settle the Fallujah stand-off," al-Jazeera director general Wadah Khanfar told IslamOnline.net, citing sources close to the Iraqi Governing Council.

<snip>

Only Media Outlet

Corpses are littered in the streets as U.S. warplanes hit the only hospital and other makeshift medical centers, he added.

As Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt, the deputy director of U.S. military operations in Iraq, was speaking by phone on al-Jazeera and insisting that American forces declared a unilateral ceasefire in Fallujah, the channel was airing live images of continued air raids by F16 fighter jets on residential neighborhoods of the town.

Kimmitt later dismissed the coverage of the channel for the crisis as a "series of lies". However, asked by al-Jazeera anchor about the live images, the U.S. commander said he was not accusing al-Jazeera of faking the images, but rather “looked at things differently”.

He said the attacks by F16 fighter jets and helicopters were meant to take out “armed insurgents firing at our troops”. The anchor reminded Kimmitt, however, that “live coverage showed children and women killed by the missiles, not armed insurgents”.

Observers see the U.S. highly unusual demand for al-Jazeera to leave Fallujah as a sign of crisis of credibility the U.S. forces face in the eyes of the Iraqis as well as people all over the Arab and Islamic world.

<snip>

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-04/09/article06.shtml

I guess we learned from the Nazis after all.... Do not let film capture any incriminating evidence.

:(

[mike_c]

3. Oh jesus..., where are our leaders? Where is the opposition?

I cannot speak. I am ashamed, dumbfounded, outraged. OMFG....

edit: WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE DEMOCRATS?! I am so angry. Why are they playing politics as though Amerikan politics is worthy of playing?

[Tinoire]

9. I am in tears.

And yet... there was nothing really new there... Was there even any music? I can't remember because it just left me dumbfounded, wounded and angry.

I tried to take a little joy in "Beautiful World", which was so artistically well done, afterwards... but it was of NO comfort. NONE.

There is no bowel of hell deep enough for the people who justify, deliberately enable and support this.

May they all ROT. ETERNALLY.

[VolcanoJen]

4. I know, Tin. I know.

:-(

[Tinoire]

15. And as I looked at those... saw the picture of the GIs

all I could think of were the young soldiers I trained, the young soldiers you and I both know, and the young soldiers of our very own DUers. Can you imagine?! Can you imagine if that had been us? Shipped over there? Scared shitless- not believing in their fabricated cause and being given orders to humiliate people? To kill them? And you know how we were surrounded with ass-holes who called them sand niggers and rag-heads (none of it capitalized of course because those "Godless Iraqis" as one poster called them yesterday are sub-human and deserve no capitalization). Those same ass-holes, I know, are gleefully picking them off like pigeons in the country-side as other soldiers, watch appalled and slowly go mad not comprehending how on earth man can be so evil.

As if it weren't bad enough with the segment of gung-ho soldiers who are STRAC and totally brain-washed, now we have mercenaries who lives are more valuable than our own soldiers' lives. Kill a private, go unnoticed. Kill a $1000/day mercenary and we will separate your men from your women & children, send the women & kids out, keep you in the town we bomb and say we are honoring a cease fire... waiting... waiting for your men to fight back so we can slaughter them and claim they "initiated" the hostilities. And the entire time... we have DUers over there.

"Kill Em All" "Born To Kill" "This one's on Bush"... Damn. Thanks Jen just for knowing and for being there.

[DemLikr]

5. Sorry, but I take no responsibility for the crimes of GWB/Bushco

They and they alone will have to answer for those.

[mike_c]

7. no, all who were silent or complicit will have to answer too....

There is nowhere to hide from the truth.

[opihimoimoi]

11. The extreme Poor Leadership of Bush and Co is to blame.

Yes, one can say the Dems have not been vocal enough.... but,

that is not the point.

It is Bush who is Command, He is at the top, and the buck stops there.

Plus, the pdb Memo did not specifically mention 9/11 but it did mention imminent attack. There was no warning from the White House to the American People. That was criminal of him.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

14. tell that to the Iraqi children who died under the U.S. boot heel....

Didn't Albright say "we were willing to pay that price?"

on edit: BTW, welcome to DU. Clinton killed or deprived his fair share of innocent brown people, however.

[DemLikr]

48. Ummm...I have not been silent nor complicit in Bushco activities.

I see this tendency to accept and shoulder blame for Republican/corporate atrocities we oppose, to be part of the Democratic psychopathology of NICEY-NICENESS.

[Rowdyboy]

12. They commit atrocities in my name, paid for by my tax money

The "occupation" of Fallujah will be a long nightmare, this will in fact be the ultimate long, hot, hellish summer for all of Iraq.

Their children will die, our children will die, thousands more will be maimed for life, unable to fully function in society. Their country, already devastated, may well sink into chaos and civil war. My country, divided and angry, will watch our children die as our treasury bleeds.

Why? Because a few Iraqi radicals tried to off GHWB senior in 1993.

For so many to have died just over a worthless piece of shit like George Bush the elder is nearly incomprehensible.

[Tinoire]

16. Maddeningly Incomprehensible

I don't recall what I thought of that story because it's from a totally different, pre-Iraq-war lifetime... "He tried to kill my daddy" sounds like more BS from these twisted cow-boys...

What were the particulars on that story? It was so long ago that I'd appreciate the refreshment.

Totally agree with you about what a "worthless piece of shit" he was & how incomprehensible it all is that we must exact revenge, advantageously stealing their resources at that, for those "worthless pieces of shit". All of the Bushes, put together, are not worth a SINGLE Iraqi or American life.

[Rowdyboy]

21. Here's a link to the basic facts

http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html

However, consider the source. I remember very little about the story. At the time, I was so thrilled to have Bush pere out of the White House and Bill Clinton in that I barely noticed.

Mostly I remember thinking GHWB Senior should have kept his worthless ass in Texas so as to have provided a smaller target.

[Tinoire]

26. Thanks so much for that refreshment.

What are these Bushes? Is there no herbicide strong enough to stop their proliferation? Little did we know at that time that "Shrub" would come with a vengeance. :(

Thanks.

[Rowdyboy]

30. There's another generation waiting in the wings to replace

these losers. The next generation's George is really physically beautiful. We will never be rid of these termites, never...They have embedded themselves into the White House, eaten into the very wood, and they won't leave easily.

[Tinoire]

37. 100% agree with you

So what do we do? Slap another coat of paint on it and hope that fools people or take the damn thing down? This is my quandary these days...

[Rowdyboy]

38. A good exterminator could work wonders....

Wish there was one on the horizon...

[dpibel]

25. "Keystone Kops tried to kill my dad!"

Try this:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_archive02

This is Seymour Hersch's thorough 1993 story on this bamboozle.

Basically, the Kuwaitis wanted a special gift for the Great Liberator. They "found" a Toyota Land Cruiser stuck in the sand out in the middle of the desert. They rounded up 17 or so people from the vicinity.

After the application of a couple of days of that special, extra-gentle Kuwaiti interrogation, one of them confessed that they had nothing on their minds but killing BushDaddy, and that SH had personally sent them on their way.

Well, that's a bit of a crude presentation. Haven't read the article since last time the topic came up.

Basically, it's almost as believable as the incubator babies.

[Tinoire]

28. IOW Iraq has been a thorn in the flank of the last 3 US adminstrations

This is some real sick stuff. Reminds one to think of Machiavelli and how countries are people, act like petty, vindictive people.

None of this is worth it. Perot used to irritate the **** out of me when he was running. You have no idea what I would give now to listen to that "kook" with everything we now know.

Yanquis, let stay home and worry about the planks in our own eyes!

[Darranar]

39. Four...

let's not forget Reagan's happy support of Saddam's atrocities when he saw them as benificial to US hegemony...

Those people are ALL so evil...

[maggrwaggr]

69. yeah, I'm having a real hard time getting to the tax man this year

the last thing I want to do is give this criminal government another dollar of my money.

[Tinoire]

17. Where are all the WAR APOLOGISTS?

Where's the effing courage of your convictions to view these pictures and justify this outrage?

Not surprise. How sad. No courage of convictions.

[BeFree]

18. America has a bloody history

Iraq, similar to Viet Nam, will not be one of America's better moments, eh?

But what could you expect from a country founded on a bloody rebellion, massacre of it's native people, a long civil war that really has never ended, and Viet Nam.

Throw in the biggest military budget ever even while we have enough nukes to blow us all to smithereens, and you begin to see just how bloodthirsty our society is, and always has been.

No one should be surprised by our current actions in Iraq.

[Tinoire]

20. I am not surprised it is happening

but I really am outraged that it is happening again, that some people justify this, and the majority bury their heads in the sand.

You are right though. How could we expect anything else? I just want people to face it... to admit what the US is doing.

Bloodthirsty. What an apt word.

[DerekG]

19. Calling all Democratic Party LOYALISTS....

Click under the "Children" icon and see what your brave "liberal", John Kerry, helped unleash. I've had quite enough of the partisans on this board who defend our representatives by citing the dreaded specter of political expediency.

I swear, Dennis Kucinich is the only reason why I haven't left this poor excuse of an opposition party.

Bill, Hillary, Joe, John, Dick, Tom...go F@#K yourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rowdyboy]

23. Perhaps you could suggest an alternative

instead of just bitching....

[DerekG]

27. Yeah, I've got an alternative...

We expel these murderers from the halls of government and send them to the Hague along with the Republicans.

Or do you discriminate between the suave, cerebral Clinton, who presided over the deaths of 500,000 children by way of sanctions, and the bastion of boorish evil, George W. Bush, who opts for the direct approach?

By all means, defend BIG DAWG (or any other pet name you have for that unprincipled conservative).

Please, justify the sea of devastation one party vomits forth upon mankind while condemning the other.

I'm all ears.

On edit: I'm going to be "bitching" for quite some time. I am sick of men like Truman, Johnson, and Clinton getting a free ride around here because of their liberal domestic policies (of course, Clinton doesn't even have this to his credit). Their reigns have produced as many corpses as Nixon or Reagan, and I won't defend them ANYMORE.

[dpibel]

33. Here's an alternative

Maybe we shouldn't spend 400 (really more like 500) billion dollars a year being the biggest hammer in the world. Because, by golly, the USofA keeps seeing everything as a nail.

What would it cost to provide adequate food and clean water for every human being on the planet who doesn't have those things? 13 billion dollars a year. How far would that go toward defusing hatred toward America? Quite a bit further, I daresay, than dropping bombs on civilians to liberate them.

Thirteen billion. Less than 2 weeks of our holy, untouchable war budget.

"Oh, but we need to be able to defend ourselves!" say the war apologists. Against what? Against whom? For those who think that throwing money at problems just doesn't get it done, please tell me how throwing bombs at problems does.

The US doesn't spend 400 or 500 billion a year on defense. It spends the vast bulk of that money on offense, and pretty much everybody in the world except Americans knows that.

America faces no invasion threat. No force on earth with a chance of defeating this country could get within a thousand miles of its shores.

America faces no nuclear threat. Kim Jong Il? Please. He's going to lob a nuke at the US for what? So the US will surrender, shortly after N. Korea becomes a sheet of obsidian? There's no mutually assured destruction anymore because there's nobody with the wherewithal to offer destruction to the US; it only works the other direction.

Yank the money out of the military budget. Use it to do some good. That's an alternative.

(Not directed at you, Rowdyboy--at least not in the sense that I assume you are a war apoligist--but you asked for alternatives.)

[Rowdyboy]

35. Oh, I understand, and I agree with you

Your piece was very well thought out and expressd. I wish I could vote for someone with your outlook.

Unfortunately, I'm stuck with Bush* and Kerry. I know what I'll do, whether I like it or not. I just wish I could be enthusiastic about it.

[Jose Diablo]

50. You betcha

We have our priorities mixed-up. Have for a long time. There is something wrong in our culture.

Speaking for myself, I cannot remember when we have have not been in conflict with somebody. Grew-up on a diet of TV with news clips of WWII and Korea. Anybody else remember shows like "Combat" a show about WWII in Europe, or how about John Wayne in all those war movies. We worship war. Spoon-feed from our earliest memories.

Then there is/was the Indian/cowboy movies. Showing the evil Indians and the good guy cowboys protecting themselves from the marauding Indians.

We have all these images implanted that tell us what is good and evil. Are the images accurate as to what happened? Well, if you question those images, then you lose yourself because they are all we have have.

Hollywood is as much to blame as *Bush on why we are where we are today.

Then there is our own schools. Does anybody really think we were taught an accurate version of history in high school?

We, as Americans, have been trained to be what we are today; a warrior country with a majority of basically people that are ignorant of what their leaders are doing around the world.

And these leaders are not just Republicans. There are plenty of Democrats that are just as guilty as the Republicans.

It is no wonder the rest of the world looks on us with fear and contempt for our ignorance.

The big question is, will we remain as we are, or will we throw the bums (all of them) out.

And will we make an effort to change what we are. Or will the world have to stomp the crap out of us like what happened to Germany and Japan to make us behave.

Can we change on our own?

[camero]

52. Great post

I've been on this one for a long time. It's high time we kicked them all out and started over. Put the quasi-Romans, corporatistas, and all those who would control the world through violence in our gov't in the pen where they belong instead of electing them to high office.

The offensive defense budget is closer to $700 billion now if you include military items in other parts of the budget. Just utterly dispicable.

My evidence is here: http://www.guerrillanews.com/sci-tech/doc4265.html

The budget request for fiscal 2005 is $401.7 billion, a 9.7% jump, but there are a host of programs hidden in other budgets. For instance, the $401.7 figure doesn’t include $18.5 billion for nuclear weapons, because that expense is tucked away in the Department of Energy budget. Homeland Security, and related programs in Transportation, Justice, State, and the Treasury, add another $42.5 billion. What should also be included are the Department of Veterans Affairs ($50.9 billion) as well as the interest on defense-related debt ($138.7 billion).



The administration has already informed Congress that it intends to ask for a $50 billion supplement for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (it got $62.6 billion last spring and $87 billion in November).



Hit the add button, and the military budget looks more like $702.3 billion. That’s real money. It's high time we used our money for butter and not guns.

[maggrwaggr]

66. where do you get that number? That's $2.25 per person

all across the earth.


???

[dpibel]

80. UNESCO?

It's a number from some UN subgroup.

Note that it's not food and clean water for every human being on earth. It's food and clean water for those who do not have it. There is little point in sending $2.25 apiece to each Norwegian. Or Swede. Or Brit. Or German. Or almost anyone in Europe. Or Canadian. Or the vast majority of Americans. Or, surprisingly, most of the 1.2 or so billion Chinese. So if all those people don't need the $2.25, then you take their per capita $2.25, and spend it on the people who don't have food and clean water.

Excuse me if this sounds snarky, but, gosh! I have a pretty fair grasp of the number of people on earth, and the ability to divide 13 billion by that number.

[Tinoire]

24. You won't see the apologists in this thread. They dare not.

No courage of their convictions. War apologists would rather hide behind a wall of rhetoric rather than face the truth and start working for change.

Change would harm their portfolios.

Change might raise the price of gas and good-bye to 2 cars in the garage.

Change might force them to enact a living wage.

Change would force them to end this war before we've pumped out every bloody liter of oil under Iraqi sand.

The apologists want no change; they just want a relatively smarter man at the helm of the same old ship.

There are, today, too many people people calling themselves New Democrats whose only difference with Bush is a personality difference; they agree with everything he stands for but they want someone else to stand for it.

Sorry guys. After viewing those photos, ABB just ain't gonna cut it. I want CHANGE!

[Kanary]

79. A whole post of quotables

Through your tears, you've posted some very profound wisdom, in very concise terms.

Your words can be tasted and understood by anyone who still has a heart.

"at the helm of the same old ship"

Yes, well, that's why I'm sailing in DK's tugboat, as he's trying to tow the Democratic Party Oceanliner out to the sea of integrity.

Toot! Toot!

Kanary

[corporatewhore]

43. i am sick to death of socalled "liberals" who are nothing more than

compassionate colonials and occupation apologists

[edzontar]

45. Damn straight. Too many of these "Silence is a Good Strategy" types

Apologists for evil is more what I'd call it.

Silence=Death.

Silence=Complicity and Consent in Murder.

Silence in the face of Fallujah is a crime.

[maggrwaggr]

65. I'm with you on that

I have said I cannot vote for Kerry because he voted for this

don't know who I'm gonna vote for

[Darranar]

22. This war is a crime against humanity, period...

the murders of thousands of innocent men, women, and children by the criminal regime currently ruling us are totally unjustifiable.

The continued occupation of Iraq and the continued oppression of the Iraqi people is totally reprehensible.

Bush calls these oppressed people "liberated". He declares the crime against humanity that is the war and the occupation a fight for "freedom". The man is among the most evil liars in the history of the world.

[Tinoire]

29. Good to see you Darranar. A crime against humanity... Totally agree.

but when will we stop it? Or shall we wait until they parade us past the crematoriums (which will never happen but TV would be a good media) so that we can wail and lie that "we didn't know"?

I am going to do my damndest to make sure that those who are banking on wailing, wringing their hands and saying "we didn't know" will be unmasked as hypocritical liars.

Every single one of us knows what's going on over there. Some of us simply don't care.

[Karenina]

46. America's racist core

has been exposed to the entire world. 4 highly paid *corp snipers get "sorted out" and 60,000 brown women and children are fleeing their homes. Says everything anyone ever needed to know about the "values" of those who support this RAPE AND PILLAGE. Don't even get me started on Haiti. That'a SOOOO yesterday's news. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[sspiderjohn]

57. What can we do about this? We can't just do nothing . . . .

It's too awful . . . .

[Selwynn]

77. I hate us most days.

In response to the "don't like America why don't you just leave then" crowd, I give this analogy:

If you have seen the movie Office Space, you may remember the guy who happened to be named Michael Bolton. He was complaining about how much he hated constatnly being asked if he was related to the "singer" (and I use that term loosely) Michael Bolton. A coworker asks, "so why don't you just change your name or go by Mike?" He responds, "no why why the hell should I change my name? HE'S the one that sucks!"

Why the hell should I leave? I'm not the one making things suck! :)

[Ladyhawk]

82. After reading this thread I feel renewed disappointment in our nominee :(

I will vote for John Kerry because the alternative is unthinkable. But I won't be able to do so enthusiastically. He did, after all, support this war when even I knew it was wrong. He was in the loop. He should have known. He should have stood on principle, but like so many of our spineless Democratic politicians, he caved to the will of Bush*.

The pictures bring it all home. I'm thinking of e-mailing all of them to my mother so she can know exactly what she is supporting. Her fundy holier-than-thou crap is making me sick!

Thursday our local peace group is taking to the streets again. This war is bullshit...BULLSHIT! WTF are we doing there? This is completely indefensible.

[LWolf]

92. For you, Tinoire:

:hug: :hug: :hug:

& (((empathy)))