We stay in Iraq we lose. We leave Iraq we lose. This is a fact. You know it

[NNN0LHI]

I know it. Even the Bushies know it. Bush is not going to go into the November election with these kinds of casualties every day. Take that to the bank. Bush is going to hand Iraq over to the first guy with an AK-47 before you can say "I'm out of here". Bush and his minions are figuring out how to spin this decision as something positive as I write this. And this is going to happen sooner than later. Yes it is.

Don

[sendero]

1. I tend to agree...

... the question is simply "will the American people finally realize what a pointless exercise this whole thing was?"

[NNN0LHI]

2. Bush still has over 160 million dollars to convince them otherwise n/t

[sendero]

22. I'm not known among friends...

...as being the optimistic sort :) but seriously, I'm not sure all the money in the world would be enough. I think people are finally paying attention, particularly with the escalation currently underway.

The sound-bite one-liner answers that have worked so well for Bush* may well fail him now. People have heard it all before, and I really think a lot of them are wanting more substance - substance that Bush* cannot really provide without showing his hand.

[LittleApple81]

3. Iraq will be declared LIBERATED. Will the 185 billion

Americans "invested" be returned?
Will all the lives be restored?
Will America survive these criminals?

[brokensymmetry]

9. Answers:

Money Americans "invested" be returned? Nope, not a cent.

Will all the lives be restored? Nope, not a one.

Will America survive these criminals? I believe deep damage has been done - damage that won't be easily healed. Sorry to say it but...the answer is...nope.

[unblock]

4. whaddya mean? we control the oilfields! what's the problem??

[mopaul]

5. & they intend to dump it on kerry

and attack him visciously for his whole term over it, and call him a dog wagger and a baby killer, etc.

[Prodemsouth]

11. That is why if your a Dem activist your real work will begin after Kerry's

inauguration. Use that time after the election, the holidays, and Jan. to rest you will need it.

[brokensymmetry]

6. No arguments here.

The spin machine is going to have to go into overdrive though - because it's going to take awhile to get all the troops out, even after June 30th.

[MetaTrope]

7. The handover will go to Blackwater Security

Things won't get any quieter there.

[Prodemsouth]

8. Yeah and his apologist will say he got us out of the war. Never mind that

that he got us into the war. Meanwhile the bloody civil war that will be going on in Iraq will be ignored by our Media and our people. If your still interested in Iraq (much like you have to do with finding the truth today) you will have to look to the Foreign Press and the "Latest News threads" here at DU.

[doni_georgia]

10. I don't think we will

hand it over sooner rather than later. In fact, my prediction is Bush will send MORE troops into Iraq with the plan for a more strict US-led military government. The June deadline will pass. Casualties will continue to mount. You're right that it is a lose-lose situation. I know that this conflict doesn't come close to the numbers of Vietnam, but this will be Bush's Vietnam. The tide is changing. When NBC showed American soldier's caskets yesterday that was a turning point. The administration had been making sure no caskets were shown on TV, but all it will take is one network to go against the directive for others to follow suit. I'm of two minds about this. I grew up seeing the body bags and caskets on the evening news. It's a sad turning point, but what good does it serve and how is it honoring to those who gave their lives to pretend like their deaths didn't happen?

I'm not willing to make a prediction about how all this will play out in the election. Americans are different today than they were 35 years ago. The political climate is way different. I just knew when we got into this war in Iraq that it wasn't going to be the cake walk people were saying. If the Shiites and the Suunis are indeed uniting, this thing is going to get way worse before all is done.

[NNN0LHI]

More troops? What more troops? The Boy Scouts are all thats left to send

There are no more troops to send.

Don

[trumad]

12. I don't know...

if you're a dead Marine you certainly lose so me-thinks get them out so they may live another day and win by living.

[Skittles]

14. hey doni.....I tend to agree with you

anyone who knew the history of the Middle East should have known this would be the outcome. It's true Bush is a uniter - he has united the Shiites and Suunis and the entire world against us.

As far as the election goes, I don't anyone can predict. Sure we could win, but we WON LAST TIME TOO.

[BOSSHOG]

13. A nice Catch-22 for bush

I agree with your thought that bush wants to pass the buck and get out, but that would rile up his base who want to "stay the course." The Chickenhawk base who care not of American Servicemembers and their deaths.

[JawJaw]

15. Exit Stage Left

And of course, we all know that the freepers' will be forever bleating that

"the war was lost by Saddam-loving liberals, who refused to support the president, underined the troops yada yada yada"

[GhengisKhan]

16. hand it over to an army of mercenaries

private corporations own it now..they may as well pay for the upkeep

[ozymandius]

17. End of an era.

Just like Vietnam was the end of an era - so is this war. I also think tha this is the end of a tiny Bush political dynasty. The Bush family is so incestuously entertwined with Iraq. This war will be the punctuation mark to close the chapter on the house of Bush.

[SpartacusSC]

18. That is a cheerful thought, and

I hope against hope that you are right. But, something in my gut tells me that chimps, like cats, have nine lives.

[fishnfla]

19. The "should we stay or should we go" dichotomy (sorry, long)

Americans are struggling with this right now, because it is a lose-lose proposition as you correctly suggest ,Don.

The facts of the matter are what? Iraqis have endured war and the hardship of sanctions since the first Gulf war. Prior to that there was the Iran-Iraq war. All during that they had the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein(looks like he had to rule with an iron fist for a reason, given the volatile Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions)

Now the current war and occupation of foreign troops. A hornets nest of militant Islamic warfare. In my estimation, even foreign Arab troops coming to wage war (al queda, and now with the hostages, Hamas, probably Hezbollah as well) American troops in an escalating quagmire, tired, under-supported logistically, undermined by a political leadership that has already commited the biggest foreign policy blunder. Trapped as you are suggesting.

That is the past and the present. What is the future?

We cant stay there forever. We will get out sooner or later.

The violence will continue, as it is now, or a civil war if we leave. More death on both sides if we commit more troops.

The upcoming election here in the US only complicates things further. As was proven during Viet Nam, politics can screw up a war of foreign policy, faster than you can say campaign contributions. I dont like the concept of our troops as pawns in an election year.

Then thereafter, perhaps a change in admin, a change in policy. More contention, more delay, perhaps some confusion in the changing of the guard, maybe more mistakes.


So what do we do? Americans dont like complicated, messy situations. They like to 'keep things simple, stupid' WE like to compartmentalize issues into neat and tidy packages, open it up and throw away the garbage.

The Bush II presidency was a mistake from the get go, jaded from the very selection process. Now comes the Aug 6th PDB. Bush is a miserable failure. Americans will slap that label on this whole mess and take it to the curb to be put out with the trash, and out of their minds. The war was a failure because of a bad president.

I think we should get out, now. When you are in a hole, stop digging.
bring our troops home, shore up our borders, let the Almighty sort it out.

[msanger]

20. The only way to win this game......

is not to play it!

From the movie "War Games," when a computer has to play itself in multiple games of "Global thermonuclear war." Its conclusion is that there is no point in playing that particular game, thus averting doomsday.

[rucky]

21. Sorry, I didn't know that "winning" was our goal there

as long as people are dying, we're losing & they're losing. Let's put our pride in our f-ing pockets and get the hell outta there. Call it a loss or spin it as a "victory" - it doesn't matter.

[fishnfla]

23. i think the posters main concern is loss of life

not the score of the game