Should John Kerry, a Catholic, be refused Easter communion ?

[Cleita]

It seems the Catholic Church has decided that to be a Democrat and be pro-choice is to be in the state of sin. Since many of the threads lately have been about religion vs. atheism and the separation of Church and State in the Constitution, it reminded me of something Bob Novak said on Crossfire this week.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/05/cf.00.html

<snip>
NOVAK: “John Kerry is the first Roman Catholic on a major party ticket in 44 years. But he may not be able to take communion back home in Boston on Easter Sunday.”

“The archbishop of Boston, Sean O'Malley, been saying that pro- abortion Catholic politicians are in a state of grave sin and, therefore, should be refused communion. That includes Senator Kerry, who violates the church's teaching on abortion and stem cell research. Most recently, he voted against a bill making it criminal to harm a fetus during an assault on a pregnant woman. However, the candidate may be working out a solution. Instead of going to Catholic mass the last two Sundays, he politicked in black churches. “

BEGALA:” I hate to see religion be made into a football like this, particularly as a Catholic, as you are. We're brother Catholics. This is as bad as when George Bush began his campaign in South Carolina by going to Bob Jones University, the hotbed of anti- Catholic bigotry.” <snip>

I remember a similar comparison that was made by the Republican opposition about John F. Kennedy. During the Presidential campaign, they accused him of possibly bringing the Catholic ban of divorce into secular law and you know how those other Christians like getting divorced and remarried, so they were at that time in favor of separation of Church and State.

So, we all know that Novak has been using his asshole for his mouth now for so many years that he believes all the excrement of words he spews to be full of wisdom and virtue. The real danger unfortunately is that this view is held by many Christians as well as Catholics and essentially makes it a sin to be pro-choice and therefore by default a sin to be a Democrat. No wonder the Republican neo-cons are trotting our their God for all to worship every chance they get.

This is the problem when the division between Church and State starts to become blurred. By denying a woman reproductive choices because of religion, Christians are forcing half the population of the world to unwillingly obey the precepts of a religion that may not be the religion one wants to follow.

[Cocoa]

1. see you in Hell, Novak

:puke:

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Shouldn't that be a private matter

between him and his priest?

I really don't think it's anyone else's business.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Communion happens in church

And Kerry would be easily recognized.

[LynneSin]

3. This whole Catholic/Pro-choice crap amuses me

Every year one of the biggest events in Wilmington Delaware is the Italian Festival, held at our biggest and most prestigious Catholic Diocese.

Every year Joe Biden, a Catholic and pro-choice, shows up for the event. He attends Mass and he's part of the big parade they have on the last day of the event. People love him in Delaware and he's a big part of the final days of the Italian Festival.

Personally, I think it's a few vocally anti-choice folks (probably not even catholic) who instigate this kind of stuff. No Catholic Church would refuse John Kerry communion, but non-catholics want to push this hot-button of Choice in hopes that maybe a few Catholics will actually vote for a repuke.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. Massachusetts: Full of Catholics and you can't win Congress

unless you're pro-choice. I think you're right that a lot of the anti-choice folks aren't Catholic (though we have a small group here in Mass that are activists). Most of the anti-choice groups are fundamentalist Christian. Most Catholics here may not believe in their hearts, but they would not vote on that one issue.

[SharonAnn]

42. Opus Dei Types would refuse a Catholic communion for any

reason they chose. The're "holier than thou", you know. And Novak was converted to Catholicism by Father McCloskey, an Opus Dei priest in Washington D.C.

He also converted Senator Sam Brownback, Peggy Noonan, Clarence Thomas, etc.. Senator Rick Santorum and Justice Antonin Scalia were already on board with the Opus Dei program.

Oh, forgot former FBI Director, Louis Freeh.

Nervous? You should be! These are very scary people.

[outinforce]

4. I Think It Is A Matter

for the RC Church to decide.

Since I ain't RC, and since the question of giving any person communion is, at bottom, a question of RC beliefs, I'll pass on this question.

[Hav]

5. .

John Kerry is not pro-abortion, he is for a woman's right to choose. All these males who want to have power over a woman's reproductive rights don't seem to understand the difference.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. So he should just go to a liberal Catholic church

Of course they aren't in communication with the Vatican. :eyes:

[mcar]

7. According to the Catholic church,

it is a matter of conscience whether a person takes communion or not. It is not supposed to be "up to" a priest or bishop to give a person communion.

At least that's what I recall from my theology classes in a Jesuit college.

Being refused Communion could be embarassing to Kerry, but I think it would backfire among Catholics, many, if not most, of whom still vote democratic.

[Catfight]

8. From the movie "Priest"

"no priest has the right to refuse anyone communion. We are lucky as priest to be able to give it, we don't even deserve to give it to them." I'm sure I'm way off on the quote, but you get the jest of it...priest do not have the right to deny anyone communion. If you haven't ever watched the movie, I HIGHLY recommend it.

[outinforce]

12. I'm Not Roman Catholic

I am not a Roman Catholic, but I understand that the RC church teaches that at some point during the Mass, the wine and bread and transformed from bread and wine into the actualy body and blood of Jesus.

And I also understand that this, for people who are RC, means that a grave sacrilege is done when the transformed bread and wine are desecrated in any manner.

Now, I happen to know several RC priests. These priests know that I am not RC.

If I were to go to a Mass and go to one of these priests to receive communion, would he have an obligation to serve me communion, knowing that I am not RC and that I might be inclined to spit whatever he puts inot my mouth?

[Liberal Christian]

18. If a priest knows you are not RC, his obligation is to withhold communion

Some priests will give communion to non-Catholics, but because the church is divided, the Roman Catholic church has a worldwide policy of not offering communion to non-Catholics.

Why would you go forward to receive communion if you were inclined to spit it out? Why would you even think of doing something so disrespectful even if you did not share the belief of those who were partaking?

[Yupster]

48. I still feel bad about it today

I'm a Methodist and was studying in Austria in 1980. I went to the Vatican for Palm Sunday and took communion in Vatican Square.

Later a Catholic friend told me I wasn't supposed to have done that.

I still feel bad about it 25 years later. I didn't know. Methodists have an open communion table. I sure didn't mean to go to their party and break their rules.

[outinforce]

52. To Answer Your Questions

To answer your questions, ("Why would you go forward to receive communion if you were inclined to spit it out? Why would you even think of doing something so disrespectful even if you did not share the belief of those who were partaking?"), let me simply say that I would not go forward to a partake of a meal at which I am not an invited guest.

My earlier post was simply to pose a hypothetical question. I was responding to something someone else had posted which said that an RC priest could never deny a person communion. I thought that there were indeed circumstances in which a person coming forward could be denied communion, and so I posted one such situation that I could think of.

I may disagree with the theology and the positions on certain social issues which the RC Church espouses, but I do understand that the RC Chuch, as is the case with any other church of worshipping community, is free to discern the wishes of its deity in the manner they think best honors the diety which they worship.

And I also understand that if I, for whatever reason (weddings and funerals being the most common for me) choose to attend a RC worship service, that I am a guest in the RC's house of worship. And my parents raised me to understand what being a guest means. It means that I am to show respect for the customs, beliefs, and practices -- however strange I may happen to think they are -- of the people whose house I am visiting.

Thanks both for asking these questions and for your reply concernig the obligation of an RC priest.

[alcuno]

19. Here's what would happen.....

First of all, the Church has in the missal a word to non-Catholics discouraging them from taking communion in the Church. However, I doubt that they would deny you. Second, if you were to spit out a communion wafer I'm fairly certain that either the priest or the eucharistic minister would pick it up off of the floor and eat it. That's what we are supposed to do if we drop it and I've seen it happen.

[Catfight]

20. I dropped communion once...

I looked at the priest for what to do, he just motioned for me to pick it up and take it...as a kid, I thought it was cool to eat something I dropped, the exact opposite of what my parents told me to do! We catholics, always bending those rules...LOL...I just don't even think this is of a concern, I believe everyone should respect everyone else's belief, and if you don't agree with it, then find your own truth. I'm not longer going to church, because of the hypocrisy and the pedophilia, plus the pope having the nerve to denounce homosexuality, etc...I can't in good conscious support RC any longer, as well as my family, all my siblings and even my parents have stopped going to the RC church.

[alcuno]

22. I guess in my head, I separate the Church from Catholicism.

But then, of course, we Catholics are known for that. The Church is getting zero dollars from me until they clean up their act.

[outinforce]

9. This Caught My Eye...

According to your partial transcript, Novak said this:

"Instead of going to Catholic mass the last two Sundays, he politicked in black churches."

Does this make anyone else just a tad uncomfortable?

If Novak is accurate, then what, exactly, is "politickiing" in any church -- black or otherwise?

I'm not a big fan of any politician who finds the notion of separating church from state difficult to grasp.

I'm bnever terribly happy when I see * or other folks from that party use churches to campaign in.

Does anyone have a clue as to what Novak might have been referring to here?

[Cleita]

11. I personally think the remark is as bigoted as it sounded.

He seems to state that Kerry is going to have to get votes from Black churchgoer's who are liberals and....I don't need to fill in the rest of his racist intent, IMHO

[markus]

13. Standard Playbook, page 2

Divide ethnic Catholics from African-Americans.

Yes, it's rasicst, but what do you expect from the Evil One.

It's not even particularly clever or original. Sheesh.

[LagaLover]

24. What the HECK is an ETHNIC Catholic???

Catholics come in ALL ethnicities!

[TankLV]

35. He's referring to "those people"

people "not like himself" and not worthy of even being considered equal or of deserving equal treatment, like, anyone of color, gays, single mothers, liberals and democrats.

The repukes like him have been working it into everyone's subconscious that "those people" are not human, and are worthy of the camps they would like to set up to eliminate us all.

According to him and his kind (bigots/racists) there are "normal" churches and "black" churches. It never occurs to them that there can be black catholics, baptists, etc. - it always boils down to "those people" and "his kind".

As in "why can't you people....(complet idiotic thought process here)".

[Kat45]

49. He wasn't "politicking" in black churches.

He went to the Sunday church services at black churches. He wasn't giving speeches or anything, he just went to the service and participated in it like everyone else did. I saw it on my local news. The pastor was thrilled to have him there and was speaking about him, so I guess the wingnuts would consider that "politicking."

Edited to add: No, I don't think he should be denied communion. I think that is totally ridiculous. If he wasn't a public figure, particularly one running against the repugs, it wouldn't be an issue at all.

[cheezus]

14. Do they deny communtion to pols who support birth control?

serious question. please answer if you know

[cap]

15. they will be pissing off a lot of liberal pro-choice Catholics in Boston

if they deny Kerry Communion. Kerry is one of their own.

I think a hefty deny the Church a donation if they do this would serve O'Malley right. The Church needs the money after the sex scandal.

O'Malley needs to enforce this action against pro-death penalty Catholics, and Catholic politicians who do not follow the Pope's injunction: "Government has a moral obligation to help the needy".

[cally]

16. They don't deny communion to those who support the

death penalty which is also against their teachings. I've been following this for awhile and I think these archbishops are wrong. You would think they would celebrate that one of their faith will become President.

[Davis_X_Machina]

17. Not if you read Matthew....

13:26 When the crop came up and bore grain, the weeds appeared, too. 27 The owner's servants came and said to him, 'Master, you sowed good seed in your field, didn't you? Then where did these weeds come from?' 28 He told them, 'An enemy did this!' The servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and pull them out?' 29 He said, 'No, for if you pull out the weeds, you might pull out the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest , and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, "Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles for burning, but bring the wheat into my barn."'"

...At harvest time -- not this Sunday, and not the parish priest, either, but the Master.

[noonwitch]

21. It's up to the church

Kerry lives in a free country-he can quit the catholic church and join one that is more in line with his political beliefs.

I don't think he will be denied, however. Lots of catholics use birth control, confess and are still given the sacraments. Even more catholics support the death penalty (Scalia, for one) and still are given the sacraments. The church needs to be consistent.

The catholic church lost all moral authority when they refused to stop priests from molesting kids. Why Kerry even cares what they think is beyond me, but I'm a liberal protestant who also practices some wicca, so what do I know.

[SharonAnn]

43. And lots of Catholics are divorced, too.

We just stopped listening to the hierarchy a long time ago.

[SemperEadem]

23. I'm pro choice and I'd walk my butt up to the alter and take it

that'd be my business with God to take communion, not the church's.

Until the pope issues a papal bull against Kerry, it's no one's business but Kerry and his God.

[nini]

25. Notice Novak said "pro-abortion" not "pro-choice"

I love it when they slip that in to imply we're all lining up for that bit of fun!.

I don't know anyone who is FOR abortion - just a woman's choice to do what she needs to in her situation.

[Mrs. Overall]

26. It's up to the individual priest

whether or not he refuses anyone communion. I have known priests who give anyone communion even if he knows he/she is not Catholic and I have known very conservative priests who would never give a non-Catholic communion. Many American priests, most of which tend to be liberal, bend the rules a lot, like performing baptisms and weddings in places other than a church, which is technically a no-no.

Also as far as abortion and birth control, these are not infallible doctrines taught by the Church, so in that case, it is up to the conscience of the individual--the Church really does teach that.

(There has been only one infallible teaching in the last hundred years and that came in the 1950's--the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary--which means her body didn't die, but she was taken to heaven before bodily death)

I'm an ex-Catholic, so I really don't believe in any of this stuff, but I did graduate work in theology.

[gpandas]

27. communion

that would be up to the catholic church. if one joins an organization, one must abide by the rules. my wish for for kerry would be that he would see the rcc's ridiculous standards, and abandom THEM.

[Mrs. Overall]

28. I disagree--

"if one joins an organization, one must abide by the rules"

The evolution of many organizations, including churches, is a story filled with rule-breakers. Almost every saint distinguished him/herself by standing up to papal authority when he or she believed that change was needed. Saint Francis, among others, was actually excommunicated for a time as he fought against the Church's obsession with wealth.

The Church needs its protestors and conscientious law-breakers to continue to change and better itself. I wholeheartedly support the women within the Church who are fighting for the right to become priests.

(of course I do not mean law-breaking in the sense of molesting altar boys...)

[gpandas]

30. i guess you missed

the point. my intention was to mock the foolish rules of religion

[BringEmOn]

29. $$$$

Make a large enough financial contribution, and communion or an annulment....no problem.

[TankLV]

31. John Kerry is PRO CHOICE, not "pro-abortion".

He's actually against abortion - for himself.

He's just not willing to FORCE HIS BELIEFS onto others.

That is what "Pro Choice" is all about.

Pro-Choice persons can be anti-abortion, pro-abortion, and all shades in between. The point is, they leave it up to others to choose for themselves.

It's about letting the individual choose, and not forcing the individual to believe/do something that another wants.

That is very consistant with Catholic teaching - He is personally against it - no conflict.

[BabsSong]

32. Dirty little secret--I'm a Lutheran married to a Catholic and every time

..I go to the Catholic Church, I march right up that isle and take communion. Wouldn't that just make them shit in their pants?? My view: a) Jesus wasn't an asshole like organized religion; b) don't ask, don't tell!!!!!!!!!

[KamaAina]

33. Novacula was converted to Catholicism by an Opus Dei priest

Opus Dei, of course, is the more or less openly fascist secret society within the Catholic Church, made famous, uh, notorious by "The Da Vinci Code".

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2069194

In late July, a tiny item in the Washington Post announced some surprising news: Sen. Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican and former United Methodist best known for his opposition to cloning, converted to Catholicism on June 27. But just as notable as Brownback's conversion was the man who performed it, the Rev. John McCloskey. Brownback is the third political celebrity to convert to Catholicism under McCloskey's guidance—the other two were journalist Robert Novak and economist-commentator Lawrence Kudlow. The priest, who operates out of Washington's Catholic Information Center a couple of blocks from the White House, has made himself a spiritual K Street lobbyist.

That focus on elites is a hallmark of Opus Dei, the conservative Catholic society to which McCloskey belongs. As James Martin put it in the Jesuit weekly America, "Opus Dei is the most controversial movement in the Catholic Church today." It's fiercely evangelical and fully devoted to the pope and the Catholic hierarchy. It's also a powerful force within the Vatican. The pope's spokesman is a member, and its founder, a Spanish priest named Josemaria Escriva (who died in 1975), will be canonized Oct. 6. Opus Dei is not well-known among American Catholics, nor is it particularly popular among them—3,000 U.S. members and holding for the past 20 years, if Opus Dei's numbers are to be believed. (And there's no reason not to believe them.)

But Opus Dei's Vatican influence and its doctrinal rigidity have made it the target of tough criticism from Catholic liberals for controversial practices such as self-flagellation, intolerance of dissent, and strict segregation of the sexes. The Rev. Richard McBrien, a Notre Dame professor of theology, says the group's beliefs are a throwback to the days before Vatican II, the council that liberalized Catholic teachings in the 1960s. Adds Martin, the Jesuit author of the America article, "What you have to assent to to be Catholic is the creed that we say at Mass. One of the criticisms leveled at liberal Catholics is that they're cafeteria Catholics. But you can find cafeteria Catholics on the right that choose to ignore church teachings on social justice, on the rights of workers and the poor, on just war theory."

[kskiska]

34. Is Rudy Giuliani denied communion?

He's pro-choice.

His first marriage was annuled because she was his second cousin, as if he didn't know. Maybe they figured it out when their guest list was the same for both sides. I don't know about his second.

[wellstone dem]

36. My understanding

is that the Eucharistic Minister is not there to judge, with the possible exception that if someone is aware an individual attempting to receive communion is not Catholic. This came up in my church when a coalition of Catholics who oppose the Church's position on homosexuality, staged an action one Sunday, with many people showing up wearing a rainbow sash. Some wore the sash because they are gay, other's who are straight wore the sash because they oppose the Church's position. All were given communion, the Bishop and the Pastor required the Eucharistic Ministers to avoid judging. As my pastor noted, "I don't have time nor is it my position to interrogate each person about their behavior in their marriage or outside their marriage, their use of birth control, whether they are a practicing homosexual, etc. My job, and the job of Eucharistic ministers is to humbly and devotely to present the body of Christ to those who come forward."

BTW, I am a Pro-life Catholic Democrat, supporting the Church's teachings on abortion, the death penalty, service to the poor, environmental justice, preservation of the family farm and opposing what I see as the non-pro life teachings on homosexuality and birth control.

[PA Democrat]

37. The catholic church should practice what it preaches

I am a Catholic, and as such I am sick of the church's total hypocrisy when it comes to pushing a "pro-life" agenda.

In the PA gubernatorial race in 2000, my church published a
"voters guide" rating Ed Rendel Vs. Mike Fisher the republican candidate. They rated them on TWO issues: abortions and school vouchers.

Mike Fisher AUTHORED Pa's death penalty law which permits the execution of children and the mentally retarded. He was indignant when the Supreme Court ruled that executing the mentally retarded was
"cruel and unusual punishment".

My Catholic church also would not accept my disabled child into their preschool program even though we offered to provide an aide to accompany her.

Churches are made of people, many of whom are deeply morally flawed, and who have NO right to sit in judgment of others. I thought that was up to God.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

38. I think Im finally going to give up on Catholicism.

I was raised a Catholic, in an ethinic inner city parish, went to parochial school, etc. So its tough for me to walk way from the Church (though Ive havnt been in years, I still at heart have considered myself one).

Their continued right-wing dirft, their homophobia, their rejection of abortion, etc, all are combining to cause me to finally say goodbye and find another church. I feel i need some form of church or spirituality, but I cant go back the the Church anymore.

[SharonAnn]

44. Yes, I know what you mean. I've left several times but I think this

last time (10 years ago) is truly the "last time" and I won't be going back.

It's just such a disappointment. With Pope John XXIII there was such hope, such an opening of possibilities.

But that's all gone and has been gone for a long time. I finally came to the conclusion that it's not healthy for me to participate in and support a relationship that demeans me because of my sex and that tries to control things that are part of my sex.

Guess I'm just not that co-dependent any more.

[goclark]

39. Simply Amazing!

I would think that the Catholic Church would be pleased to offer communion to anyone. After all, they want all of us to just forgive the problems of the priests and the hundreds upon hundreds of boys. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I attended a Memorial Service in a Catholic Church and took communion. I am not Catholic.It was stated in the bulletin that
" any Christian may take communion" and I did. I was pleased.

To think that they would not offer Sen. Kerry communion would turn me off completely with the Church!

I do think Kerry should GO to the church of his faith on Easter Sunday. If not, that is a slap in the face to the thousands of Catholics that see him as a man of peace and good will.

I wonder if the Chimp is going to Easter Services? I have NEVER seen a picture of him going to church with Pickles. It would be lovely to see Bush pull up to the Crawford Born Again Church with Pickles and the two girls in a pick up truck. That would really be a miracle!

[harrison]

40. You know, if you read the Gospels, can anyone show me any

person from whom Jesus withheld himself? Christianity as it seems to be practiced today seems to be so far removed from the Jesus of the Gospels that it almost appears unrecognizable.

A small reminder: Zaccheus was a tax collector and considered one of the worst sinners of all by the religious authorities of the day. He got rich by collaborating with the Romans.

Jesus went to his home and dined with him.

But the Catholic Church wants to refuse communion to John Kerry because they consider him to be in a state of sin. Because he doesn't endorse the idea that Ceasar (the government) should have a certain law prohibiting abortion.


The Catholic Church today is so full of repressive authorities that I don't know how thinking members are able to abide it. I assume they just ignore half the shit that comes out of Rome and that is the only way that stay in it.

[leesa]

41. I wish the Catholic Church would enter the 21st century. We really don't

need unwanted children born into this world. In fact, considering our overpopulation problems, we need very few wanted OR unwanted children born. The doctrine is based on a period of time where many children needed to be produced to keep population figures up. That need does not exist anymore. ADAPT!

[ulTRAX]

45. Unless Kerry REALLY believes the Pope is God's Representative on Earth...

Unless Kerry REALLY believes the Catholic Church's arrogant and self-serving assertion that the Pope is God's Representative on Earth... he should write off the Church and never look back.

[Festivito]

46. Charge the priest with slander.

To so publicly label someone as pro-abortion when their stance in only pro-choice is slanderous.

That is not practicing religion, it is practicing a illogic at another's expense.

And, I think I may some more things to say about this that are not very nice to say so I'll stop here.

[UTUSN]

47. No. n/t

[DemLikr]

50. JK can come to my house, Easter communion is given by the Easter Bunny

him/herself.

Sean O'Malley will likely be too busy blowing altar boys to get around to services that day anyway.

[K8-EEE]

51. The Bigshots In The Church? Give Me A Break, Talk About SIN...

What crap. First of all as always it is up to the individual. All human beings are sinners, every Catholic mass will have somebody who's "living in sin" or divorced or gay or something else that some priest would condemn as grave sin and if they reflect and feel there is nothing wrong with it, they go to communion, it's not up to the priest, and since 25% of them at LEAST are bloody pervert pedophiles or have covered up for them, Fuck THAT!

I'm a practicing Catholic so I can say that, oh, and I'm a BITCH too so I can say THAT! LOL!

[dryan]

54. Sacraments cannot be denied

According to my canon law professor when I studied it, the sacrements cannot be denied if they are asked for. Frankly, God is the ultimate judge of what's in a person's conscience. Geraldine Ferraro attended mass on a daily basis. Folks, this is just another ploy for the right-wingers to divided Americans against Kerry. PS - I am a devout Catholic married to a permanent Deacon.

[K8-EEE]

58. My Feeling Is That The Church Has To Divest Itself Of Its Wealth

The camel thru the eye of the needle is the part that Christians have been in denial about since the dawn of Christianity. It is the root of all the evil the Church has commited, from enslaving native peoples to protecting pedophiles, the accumulation and protection of wealth has got to stop.

This will never happen except from a movement from within, made up of lay persons and true religious...

[WilliamPitt]

55. The churches in Boston will be very empty on Sunday

[bleedingheart]

56. Funny how the Church cashs my checks but might refuse me

communion.... hmmmm....

[Paragon]

57. Novak's obviously gone senile.

I therefore want him opening his yap as much as possible, saying as much of his boneheaded shit as possible. Can only help us.