It's time to reinstate the Draft.

[Renew Deal]

I think it's time to bring back the draft. Here's why. First, we aren't getting out of there. Everyone says we're not leaving. Fine, you don't want to leave? Then at least do the job right. We are short on troops. The rotations are blown and we don't have enough troops to replace the ones there and still fight another war.

If something breaks out in Taiwan, NK or some other surprise, we are short troops. Also, there aren't enough troops to do "the job" in Iraq. Everyone that says we should stay says we need more troops. Well where are they going to come from?

It takes 6 months to get troops drafted and ready for combat. We aren't leaving Iraq any time soon.

I know this will upset some people, but you have to consider the fact that we're not leaving barring a nationwide revolt. I want our troops out too, but this is what needs to be done if we are doing to stay. Let's get this going now.

[Fenris]

1. I don't want to die

[Renew Deal]

3. I don't want you to die.

This is a national burden. The nation needs you. The burden should be shared by all. Rich and poor. Besides, maybe the attitude towards this war will change when we start drafting.

[Fenris]

6. So you will sign up, then?

[Renew Deal]

9. I would go through the process if they called.

Though I am not sure how I would handle it.

[Fenris]

11. How old are you?

[Renew Deal]

18. 27

[Fenris]

29. Well as someone 20 years old and far more likely to get the call up

I can honestly say I don't appreciate being asked to bear the burden of those older than I who got us into this mess in the first place.

[Renew Deal]

31. Isn't that what always happens?

[Fenris]

41. Ergo, I don't believe in the draft

The only draft that I feel was justified was the Second World War.

[JohnLocke]

105. What about the Civil War? The Revolutionary War? The First World War? (nt)

[MUAD_DIB]

82. Al Franken did a spot on the draft back in his SNL days.

His spot on the news was called the Al Franken Decade.

When he was younger and impresionalble he wasn't for the draft, but now that he was older, and past drafting age, he understood the wisdom of it.

[JVS]

33. ooh, a fine age to join the services

[JVS]

19. If you are going to advocate a draft sign yourself up first

none of this I'll go if called bull

[Renew Deal]

30. You are missing the point.

I don't think people are taking this war seriously and I don't think they understand how vulnerable we are because of troop shortages. I don't want to die for a lie, but I also think that if we are going to fight for a lie, we should do it right. Let the american people understand what it means.

[JVS]

35. If you want to force people into war, you should go first

that is the vital point that you miss

[The Traveler]

40. Yer not too old

Your presuming the same Vietnam era rules would be applied in new draft. Demographics suggest the old Vietnam era rules wouldn't wash. Fewer 19 year olds, and too many of them have health problems. So, it is possible you would be eligible.

Dude, they called up my 61 year old cousin (retired Colonel) and shipped his ass to Iraq. They had to send him home because of health issues. But I think you get the point.

They'll take whoever they think they need. 27 is not too old ... my Dad was about that age when he was drafted in WWII.

[MUAD_DIB]

84. If you believe in fighting for a lie then step right up and join the

Bushwaffen Korps. Are you honestly suggesting to bring back the draft so that fearless leader can have all of the warm bodies he needs to spread the love in the ME and elsewhere?

Please tell me that you don't mean what you are writing.

[The Traveler]

92. Going farther in the wrong direction

seldom leads to the right. We need to begin withdrawing. We need to humbly request the UN an international community take on the problem we have created. We should place ourselves at their service in this matter. We should pay our UN dues.

Humble pie tastes like shit, but it sure can be nutritious. Jesus said something to that effect. Someone should remind the right wing Bible thumpers of that ...

[MUAD_DIB]

94. True. I know that it would never happen, and I agree with what you are

saying here. I don't trust *, and I don't see why we should give him any leeway on this.

It won't be him asking for the draft anyway, but it will sure be his flunkeys that will be screaming for it.

AWOL will stay above it to the last...until he has to sign the legislation to send more kids to die for his glory.

[The Traveler]

95. I am not a pacifist

But I do object to crappy strategy and dishonorable means. Bush has given us both. I doubt the value of the draft and object to it on moral grounds. Guys like Fenris should be spared comnbat, they best serve other purposes though I do believe I would rather have him at my back than any Bush male or any member of their class. Been there. Done that.

[Renew Deal]

99. I don't mean it that way.

I think the troop shortage is the elephant in the room. I do not want warm bodies for Bush's war, but if we are going to do this, we have to do it right. Unfortunately, we are short troops. I guess I shouldn't expect Bushco to do anything right.

[MUAD_DIB]

100. I can see that you have taken some heat for your beliefs.

If there was a national peacetime draft, without * at the helm, then maybe I would be for it.

* is just a fu@ker and I will never trust him to do right by the country.

[The Traveler]

24. I know ya would

Yer a liberal, not a chickenhawk. Speaking as one who has "seen the elephant", I would rather have you at my back than the spawn of the Bush clan. I'm hoping that you will never see what I have ...

If it happens, I bet you will do well. Here's hoping it doesn't happen. Peace.

[Katarina]

26. As asked before...

How old are you? You go and sign up tomorrow. Just do it. My son turns 16 in 2 days. There is NO WAY in hell he will fight in this war! I don't care what it takes...I may have to sell everything I own to get him out of this country but we are fighting a war that was built on nothing but lies. My son won't fight George W. Bush's war EVER!

[The Traveler]

15. And I don't want ya to die

We may or may not need to reinstate the draft. Frankly, I'm opposed. The last thing I want is to see the military weakened by the snot nosed, weak spined, spoiled brat, drug addled chieckenhawk children of the Bush class. While it might be amusing to watch them pee themselves, I really don't see much good coming from it.

And you (who are not a hypocrite about the matter) should not be forced into combat service. We have enough volunteers if we have a sensile foreign policy backed by well reasoned strategy. There are many more ways to serve our people than toting a rifle. And all the draftees in the world won't help if we continue to blunder politically and strategically. Get rid of Bush. See how things go. Then decide on a draft.

[MUAD_DIB]

85. I really don't think that the children of Shrub will ever see a

bootcamp...let alone combat.

The rich are the rich and they understand the golden rule.

I'll bet good money that the joke will be on the poor and middle class again.

[The Traveler]

89. Yer right ... and who wants 'em?

Like yer user ID, BTW. Great nome de querre or nome de DU as the case may be.

The poor and middle class savor life, my friend. whereas the children of the rich seek meaning in dominating it. Which is why they make better soldiers than the children of the rich. They also make better musicians, artists, engineers, fathers, mothers, lovers ... The children of privilege as a rule do not have what it takes to make it on the field of battle, or without Daddy's money for that matter. So I say ... who wants 'em? If I had to take the field again, the last thing I would want at my back is some rich kid.

[Qanisqineq]

2. Hmmm, even my husband is against the draft

and he's in the army and could end up going back to Iraq sooner than he is told.

[Renew Deal]

5. Why is he against it?

Is it a military thing or a personal/society thing.

[Qanisqineq]

13. he doesn't think anyone should be forced to die for their country

HE doesn't want to die for this war, but he knew that was a possibility when he signed up 9 years ago

[Renew Deal]

17. People have to die for their country in every country.

Otherwise there is no country.

[Qanisqineq]

32. there are over a million people currently signed up to do that

and they deserve our utmost respect. He just doesn't think anyone should be told, "you will go kill and be killed for your country"

[Warpy]

45. not only that

...but the reaon the military is spread so thin is that they're being wasted at military bases around the world, bases that should be leased but closed until they are needed, to free up personnel to do the job they were trained to do, rather than weed some general's flower beds.

We're not having so much a personnel problem as a mission problem. Restating the purpose of our military as a national defense force and no longer allowing them to be used as enforcers by multinational corporations in any third world country foolish enough to elect a reformist government should be paramount.

We simply can't afford to keep an Imperial miltary, not in wasted wealth and certainly not in their precious lives. It's time to rein in the Pentagon, which has now lied us into 2 disastrous wars (Vietnam and Iraq) through a crackpot political agenda combined with an utter lack of understanding of real geopolitical forces.

[Qanisqineq]

52. Exactly!

...but the reaon the military is spread so thin is that they're being wasted at military bases around the world

If we would actually get out of countries like we say we will and stop policing the entire world, we would have more troops for Bush's war.

[JVS]

59. He is right

Nobody should be forced in, and those who sign up should not be deployed recklessly

[tomorrowsashes]

50. I will NEVER die for my country

I will NEVER die for my country, or any form of government. I will not murder to uphold the state I oppose. Honestly, I would prefer that there was no nation. The nation-state is a flawed concept from the start. I will not die for yankee imperialism.

[Qanisqineq]

56. deleted... posted in wrong place

[Qanisqineq]

64. hey tomorrowsashes...

I didn't mean to put my previous post as a reply to you! Sorry!

[rpannier]

81. Too Bad...

It's too bad that you will take full advantage of the good this country has to offer, but will not fight, or die, to defend those rights and liberties you seem to take for granted. I am living in Korea now, but I have also lived in Germany, Mexico, and Saudi Arabia. I have been to Viet Nam, Japan, Spain, France, Argentina, Chile, Egypt, Tanzania, the Sudan, Kenya and Morocco. Whether you want to admit it, the United States is the best country to live in. If you doubt it, try living elsewhere.

[tomorrowsashes]

106. I would not die for the government of any country

I would not die for the government of any country, including the ones you mentioned. Maybe the US is the best country in the world. It's debatable, but irrelevant in this issue. I don't care if one government is less bad than another. I will not support any of them. Just because something is "the best" doesn't mean that it's good.

I cannot take my rights for granted, because they are fundemental, and every person is garunteed them. I am glad that I have those rights, but I owe nobody for them. If I did not have them, that would be tyrany, and I would be willing to die to gain them. Liberty is not a privilege, but something that should be gaurunteed, and that governments unjustly take away worldwide.

[PaDUer]

54. Oh please..

where were you tonite?
The military prefers people who want to serve, and NOT being forced to be there.

[Qanisqineq]

68. help stop reinstatement of the draft... sign up today

Start by going to one of these sites:

www.army.mil
www.navy.mil
www.usmc.mil
www.airforce.com

:bounce:

Edit: must be getting late, can't do anything right!

[The Traveler]

97. Yes ... but when they die they should die for worthy purposes

otherwise they are merely the cannon fodder of tyrants.

As Malcom X said, "No one will give you your freedom and dignity. If you are a man, you will take it." That includes refusing to fight or die in an immoral war based on lies.

[mot78]

4. And I know this thread will reach 100+ posts by tomorrow morning

[neoteric lefty]

7. my arse

isn't going no matter what. well, show me a few million Shiites in concentration camps then I may be a bit swayed to fight for "the cause". But until then, I am not going to risk my life for Bush's little war.

[chicagojoe]

8. Dear Bleachers7...

I'm curious as to whether you or any children you may have are of draft age ????

[Renew Deal]

14. No

But I considered that when I posted it. The thing is that people here are supportive of the war. The ones that want to stay in don't seem to understand what it takes. I am not saying that I know what it takes but it is no secret that we are short troops. We still have to maintain national security. We are vulnerable right now. Part of my point is that Bushco do not have the guts to do this right. They are more interested in being reelected than doing Iraq right or the overall security of this country. Need more proof? The June 30 deadline. It is widely agreed that the deadline is not doable, but Bush* will do it anyway.

[Katarina]

34. We're supportive of the war???

I think you have the wrong board.

[Renew Deal]

38. I don't mean you.

I mean the american people in general.

[PaDUer]

58. You said people here are supportive

of the war? Well, I'm NOT, and I know there's a lot more who are NOT in support of this illegal * war. Let him and his cronies go fight it.

[bluestateguy]

10. Young Republicans go first

I oppose the draft, but I admit I have a sadistic fantasy of taking some of these white bread, fat-assed young Republicans and packing them off to boot camp and sending them off to the front lines. Hopefully draft boards would reject their bullshit excused ("Do you know who I am? MY father gave a lot of money to the Bush campaign".)

I SO wish I was of draft age so I could take my draft notice, wipe my ass with it and flush it down the toilet.

[The Traveler]

27. Ya wanna make sure we lose?

Useless idiots.

[johnfunk]

103. Hell, we'll get R. Lee Ermey...

... to whip those effete Republican girly man sissies inta KILLERS! We need to make sure the Selective Service is especially aggressive in enforcing draft laws at elite private Southern universities and colleges. And draft all those homeschooled sock puppets at Patrick Henry Madrassa... er, University! They need to be KILLERS FER CHRIST!

[JVS]

28. Draft advocates go first.

along with war supporters

[Renew Deal]

Are you afraid of the truth?

Or do you think the american people will be? Bush wants to fight this war, then do it right. Our troops in Iraq are vulnerable if they aren't being supported or replaced on schedule. A draft will probably reduce the number of battle casualties because we will have more prepared/fresh troops. Battle weary troops are more vulnerable.

[JVS]

43. the truth is that it's time to go

green draftees also don't have a very good track record. Even if we start drafting now it will be about 2 years until they are fully trained. We should leave.

[MUAD_DIB]

86. I wouldn't throw that SOB a line to save his miserable life

if he was drowning before me so what makes you think that we should lay down ours so that miscreate can spread the U.S. across the mideast?

You must know that it is coming if he gets Diebolded into office?

Why are you so eager to help *?

[rpannier]

12. It May Reach That Point

It may reach the point where we have to re-instate the draft. However, I think there is a key element missing in all this. If we'd make up with the U.N., we might get more troops and international support. The problem right now is not in Iraq. That problem is salvageable. The problem lies in Washington DC and London. They cannot seem to bring themselves to admit WE NEED HELP!!!!!! Many Arab countries have offered support (even military support), if we can get support of the United Nations.
It's not that difficult -- except for people who can never admit they're wrong.

[mindfulNJ]

16. no f***ing way!

Why? I don't believe in this illegal war and neither does my 19 year old son...Why should he give his life for Bush's folly? :grr:

[Renew Deal]

21. I agree

But there are national security needs that need to be met outside of Iraq and that's impossible now. He and others can always go for objector status.

[bloom]

55. what needs are you worried about?

http://www.cdi.org/budget/2004/world-military-spending.cfm

We spend 400 billion on our military. Look what other countries spend. Who are you worried about?



I think you should join the National Guard if you are so concerned.

[Renew Deal]

63. I am worried about actual troops.

We don't have enough troops on the ground and in the cycle. The troops that are there are stuck there and they don't seem to have any new ones to send.

[ButterflyBlood]

67. then bring them home

n/t

[LZ1234]

20. Apparently you have no children of draft age?

I can't imagine anyone who possibly could lose a loved one in this mess could suggest a draft.

[Renew Deal]

25. I don't but

The security of this country does affect me. You can't dispute that we are short troops. We need to get them somewhere.

[Djinn]

66. of course

the security of YOUR country effects you - but Iraq NEVER had anything to do with US security.

The draft only ever effected working/middle class kids.

Let the war profiteering scumbags go fight their own war, or even send the mindless hordes that beleived the crap about Saddam and 9/11 or Saddam and WMD's.

[NEOBuckeye]

22. Count me out

I don't think that we should be in Iraq, PERIOD. Reinstating the Draft won't cause me to rethink my opinion. I won't go. I'd much sooner take my own life, on MY terms. I absolutely REFUSE to sacrifice my life to satisfy the delusional visions of power and grandeur of gutless bastards like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Karl Rove.

When the day arrives that these cowards take up arms and find the will to fight and die on the front lines of their damned "resource wars" I will gladly enlist. But I think I'll bet on Hell freezing over first.

[JVS]

23. It's time to get the hell out of Iraq

[Cascadian]

96. Those are just my thoughts!

Man. I am so glad I am 35 now. If I were 21, I would seriously be considering plans to go to New Zealand.


John

[PaDUer]

36. What are you smoking?

I guess you're joining/enlisting with some of your friends? Listen, you know what's going on over there, and why our kids are there who really don't want to be there at all. You're aware of the casualties, all the injuries, brain injuries, lost limbs, and uncalled and untimely deaths..All of a sudden, you want to play GI Joe..Since people like you are ready to volunteer, they won't need a draft.

[ButterflyBlood]

37. fuck no. I'm not dying because some idiots believed *'s lies

Pull the troops out now. Better solution. Draft means anti-war people go through trouble because of *'s little adventure. That's not fair. Just leave and get every single American out of Iraq as soon as possible.

[sir_captain]

39. In some sense, being against the draft is selfish

It's not surprising, after all, that most advocates of the draft are Democrats and not Republicans. Much of the army is made up of poor minorities who have no say in the decision-making process and are underrepresented in government in general. I think the most important plus for a draft is the idea that everyone would have to serve and perhaps, our lawmakers would be more likely to not do things like go to Iraq if they had to send kids from the suburbs along with the kids from the South Bronx.

I don't know how I feel about the draft myself, exactly, but I think I'm honest enough to admit that my reservations are largely selfish ones. I'm on the upper end of draft age, and I don't have a particular desire to go to war. But I think I'm also honest enough to realize that is selfish and that there are a lot of good and progressive reasons for compulsory military service. Many European countries that did not join us in our war in Iraq have compulosory govenment service, after all.

[IndianaGreen]

42. No draft. No war. No occupation.

We would be better off storming the White House and arresting the entire government than to keep a single soldier in Iraq.

[ButterflyBlood]

44. you got the right idea

I agree with every single word you said. :toast:

[JVS]

47. We're just being intransigent leftist purists on this one I guess

[The Traveler]

51. I'm a hawk ... and I agree with you. (n/t)

[sir_captain]

57. I dunno...

I think it is a bit hypocritical for we progressives to support leveling social programs like affirmative action, welfare, etc, and not support the theory of a draft. it's very easy for us to all sit up here in our ivory tower shitting on bush and co and leaving minorities and the poor to die while we type away

the draft is a levelling device--and it could help make people like bush think twice about sending troops into shitholes

[ButterflyBlood]

65. like Vietnam?

sorry but that argument is bullshit.

[sir_captain]

70. no it isn't

vietnam was bad. how does that prove that drafts are bad? oh, wait, it doesn't. the transitive property doesn't apply here.

so you don't think that if there were a bunch of bush and cheney kids in the marines that their daddies might be a little less cavalier about sending troops into battle?

why don't you discuss instead of just calling something bullshit?

[ButterflyBlood]

73. no, you just restated the argument i threw out

that if there was a draft people would be reluctant to fight unjust wars. But Vietnam went on, so that proves it's not true.

We need to starve the evil military machine by cutting off it's support, not feed it.

[sir_captain]

77. no, that does not prove it is not true

i think we're going to have to examine two basic tenets of logic here. first, just because two things are true does not mean that they are related. one has to provide timeframe (A happened, then C happened) and then provide large amounts of supporting evidence. You have not done this. Saying bullshit and mentioning Vietnam does not constitute evidence.

Second, one historical example does not prove anything by itself. A) it is a tiny piece of history, the rest of which you are disregarding and B) I'd like to think that we've learned a lot from Vietnam (and in fact, despite our current involvement in Iraq, I think the level of national outrage from the very beginning demonstrates that indeed, many of us have

edit: once again, i'm not even sure where i stand on this issue. i see both sides of it. i mainly object to your dismissiveness with zero actual content

[The Traveler]

48. Hey ... now there's an idea! (n/t)

[FlemingsGhost]

46. Hear, hear! Let's get the party started.

Hasten the inevitable collapse...

[meow mix]

49. occupation apologists must support drafting the kids..

no way around it, ending the occupation sounds better.

[sir_captain]

61. i reference my earlier posts

i think it's entirely possible to theoretically support the draft have entirely nothing to do with the occupation

[meow mix]

69. in the normal world that would work fine..

but we are in georgieland now.. and here, occupation = draft.

[sir_captain]

72. i see your point...

but i'm not totally convinced that it still wouldn't help...i dunno...i'm undecided on the issue

[MUAD_DIB]

88. I theoretically support the draft...

for all of the children of CEOs

for all of the people making $250,000 and up

for all of the children of legistlators everywhere in the U.S.

for all of the "war is great types"...


Start drafting these types of kids, and I bet that the * admin would be forced to declair victory and pull out before he was voted out by his own kind.

[sir_captain]

90. there is something to that

i can't tell if you were being completely sarcastic or not, but, in any case, i think that this is more of a legitimate question than the flames in here indicate

[Jax]

53. Another recent DU link about the draft

Raven posted this question here less than three months ago, very eloquently.

"But I think, as a people, we need a national dialogue on this issue. Should a President be required to implement a draft before he/she calls up reserve troops or National Guard troops for combat duty?"

du link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1030152#1030174

We really do need a national diaglogue on this now, not later.

Raven is exactly right with her questions in this post three months ago.

Jax

[ButterflyBlood]

62. best quote from there:

"Isn't a woman for the draft like a man against abortion rights?"

I'm pro-choice. Do whatever you want with your body. If you want to terminate your pregnancy, fine. You should have the choice. If you don't want to be a soldier, fine. You should have the choice.

[sir_captain]

76. and that's why the draft has conscientious objectors

society is a symbiotic relationship between the nation and its citizens. the nation provides rights, and the citizen has responsibilities toward the nation. sometimes, this can include compulsory government service. just like we pay taxes for social services, sometimes, when we have to go to war for legitimate reasons (and obviously, conflicts like iraq and vietnam do not qualify as legitimate, so don't accuse me of being a freeper) citizens are obligated to take up arms. it sucks, but so does paying taxes.

[Prodemsouth]

60. I agree with the points made that the American people don't understand

what is needed when war is called for. If we still had a draft we more than likely would not be in Iraq right now. I said on a similar thread, last night, that ending the draft hurt the peace movement and the left in general. The reason is more people pay attention to starting a war is because they have a personal investment in the war. Had it been even thought that Bush had lied us into war when we had a draft he would be facing impeachment right now, despite GOP control of Congress because people would be pissed off so much, they would demand action- why because they have a stake in this war.

[sir_captain]

71. nicely put

[PaDUer]

78. that magic word...

impeachment...Rumor is--they're "looking" into this.

[sir_captain]

79. don't get my hopes up!

[MI Cherie]

74. The threat of bringing back the draft ...

... may be the only thing that wakes some people up.

A vote for Bu$hCo is a vote for war and the draft.

[mellowinman]

75. Its never time to reinstate the draft

It's the 21st Century. The United States hasn't needed to send troops anywhere for many years.

conventional warfare in these times is bullshit.

We have an arsenal that could blow up the Earth 10 times over. No one will attack us.

We need to stop playing policeman, and start playing diplomat.

Fuck the draft.

[FDRrocks]

80. No

Drafting is against Democracy. It goes against the will of said person, and also any modern war is on the whim of the plutocracy in power, and not the people.

Fuck the draft. Force me to kill, nice Democracy.

Are you eligible for the draft? So you want our troops out, but we aren't leaving, so since we aren't, lets have the government make people go? THAT MAKES CRAZY SENSE! CRAZY, I TELL YOU!

[Sandpiper]

83. Not to put to fine a point on it

But my reaction to your draft reinstatement idea can be summed up in two words:

Fuck Off

You go die for the Bush junta.

[Selwynn]

87. As long as you're first to go, and put on the front lines..

You know, lead by example and all that..

[Triple H]

91. Hope you have a good trip.

I'm not gonna die for Dubya. You can, though.

[Cascadian]

93. NO WAY!!!

I really think that this will not solve anything. It will never work either. In my view, this is slavery. Government sanctioned slavery. What is happening in Iraq is Vietnam II. I would say is take our troops out of there and bring in the UN and have troops from Muslim countries administer order there. They would probably do a better job than what we are doing. I would encourage people to defy the draft. i would even give young people the directions to get to Canada.


The draft! HELL NO!


John

[Zorra]

98. All part of the PNAC's plan for militarization and empire.

9/11 and Iraq have been huge successes for them. Everything is going according to plan.

None of them or their children will be drafted, you can count on that.

Fuck the PNAC, fuck war, and fuck the draft.

[LWolf]

101. No. It. Is. Not.

I have a better solution; all of the people who:

1. Support the war in Iraq;

2. Support U.S. empire building;

3. Think there ought to be a draft;

can go down and enlist today to make sure we have enough lives to spend.

And those who do not support the expense of human life for American imperialism can go about their lives.

I'm the mother of two sons, age 24 and 26. If they wanted to enlist, I would support them with everything I have. If America decides it is ok to draft them, I will move with them out of my country. I will curse every last American who thought it was ok to forcibly spend my sons' lives to be reborn as an active soldier for a thousand lifetimes. With my last breath.

[Cascadian]

102. What about a nationwide revolt?

...but you have to consider the fact that we're not leaving barring a nationwide revolt."


Guess what? It's already happening!


John

BRING EM HOME!

[Colin Ex]

104. Please, sir, tell me what to do with my life.

Send me to jail if I disagree and say I don't want to be a military goon.

That would be awesome.

-C