Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 7)

[Skinner]

I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

This is thread #7 on this subject. Here are links to Thread #1, Thread #2, Thread #3, Thread #4, Thread #5, and Thread #6.

[Nlighten1]

1. Firsties

No

[JohnLocke]

2. Slinkerwink, please justify your claim.

Slinkerwink
----
94. it's in the dictionary-----three out of four definitions show it's based on the female gender.
----
JohnLocke
120. And of course you don't cite the dictionary because there is none.
Please cite a dictionary in which three out of four definitions are bigoted toward human females because they are female.

[bearfartinthewoods]

32. http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561599727/bitch.html

Language Advisory


The dictionary entry you requested contains language that may be considered offensive

bitch < bich >

noun (plural bitch·es)

1. taboo term: a highly offensive term for a woman that describes her as spiteful, quarrelsome, and unprincipled ( taboo )


2. complaint: a querulous nagging complaint ( slang ) ( often considered offensive )


3. something difficult: a difficult thing or situation ( slang ) ( often considered offensive )
That lock’s a real bitch to open.

[mouse7]

43. Don't pull edited entry out of MY dictionary

There's plenty of posts on thread 1 with the complete entry.

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. yeah, along with you posting to the contrary.

i provided the link..unlike you.

[mouse7]

58. There was no link to the complete entry

I own the $50 dollar "ka-thunk" version of the brand new Encarta Dictionary.

My dictionary has the complete entry.

[ant]

72. why are we arguing dictionary definitions here?

I notice no one's addressed my dictionary.com post, but it don't matter, because the issue is usage.

How often is this word used against men in a way that's supposed to address something other than their weakness?

If I say, "Bob is such a bitch!" - what does that mean to you? To me, it means Bob is weak. (A pussy, he's got no balls...oh, my, it's everywhere, isn't it?) That's the only way the word makes sense when applied to men. Does someone want to give me another interpretation?

As an insult, it is pretty much used exclusively against women, and that makes it sexist. It really is that simple.

And again, I'll give my disclaimer: I do not support a ban, I agree that context matters, but it seems ironic that those arguing that context matters continue to ignore that the only context it's ever really used in - when it's used as an insult, which is the issue here - is a sexist one.

[mouse7]

Then why did all this start on a Condi Rice thread?

That's where the flame war started. Someone called Condi Rice a bitch, and someone who shall remain nameless said calling Condi Rice a bitch was like calling all women b---hs, c--ts, f----ts, n----rs. etc.

I called Condi Rice an "asshole" and got called a misognist for that.

[ant]

105. I don't understand

I'm not sure what your point is. Could you please explain?

My point was that the word, when used in the way Skinner is proposing to ban it, very clearly is sexist. I don't see how your post relates to that, except that it points out the debate started in a Condi thread, which sort of supports the point that this is an insult used almost exclusively against women.

And in case you missed it below, I am now changing my position on this vote. I do not support a ban on words, but that is not what Skinner is proposing. He is very clearly proposing a ban on the word being used in a specific way, a way no one could legitimately argue is NOT sexist.

[ant]

33. dictionary.com

bitch ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bch)
n.
1. A female canine animal, especially a dog.
2. Offensive.

a. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
b. A lewd woman.
c. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.

3. Slang. A complaint.
4. Slang. Something very unpleasant or difficult.

So she was wrong on the "three out of four," but please note that all of the "offensive" uses of the noun form, meaning all of those referring to the word as an insult and therefore the subject of this discussion, are either directly about women or calling a man weak (by, as others have noted, emasculating him).

What's more, I would be willing to bet that these descriptions are EXACTLY how the word is used on DU in the cases where these women find it offensive. Does someone want to do a search and categorize the usage of the word "bitch" on this board? I very seriously doubt that when it's used as insult it's being used in a way that strays from the "offensive" definitions given above. I'm pretty sure the word is used either exclusively to attack women or to attack men who are behaving weakly, i.e., like women, as in, "Powell is W's bitch."

Again, I DO NOT FAVOR A BAN, but I am completely and utterly appalled at the way people on this board are trying to pretend this word ISN'T sexist, or that people are being too sensitive or whatever else. It is just completely dishonest.

Can we ban that, Skinner? Can we have a ban on intellectual dishonesty here?


Edited because complete sentences are good.

[JohnLocke]

73. So "Something very unpleasant or difficult" = a women? Now THAT's sexist.

[ant]

88. don't change the subject

As Skinner says in his post:
To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

Although your subject line did make me laugh, that doesn't change the fact that we are very clearly talking about a very particular definition of the word, and that is the word as an insult. The only definitions that apply are those listed as "offensive," and those very clearly ARE sexist. (Edited because I thought it was funny that the dictionary itself refers to this particular use of the word as OFFENSIVE.)

In fact, I am now changing my vote on this. If we are talking specifically about banning the word when used as an insult to high-profile, political opponents, then I do support it. The issues of context and free speech become irrelevant because we are NOT talking about an outright ban on the word, we are talking about a ban on the word in a very specific context that is quite clearly sexist.

[JohnLocke]

138. I didn't

Slinkerwink (or however that's spelled) made a claim. I asked for proof, and someone gave me utter bullshit...

[ant]

146. like I said

The specifics of her claim may have been incorrect, but the general argument that this term, when used in the way Skinner is proposing we ban it, is sexist, still holds.

And surely you're not saying that what I've given you is bullshit. If that's the case, you should have no problem refuting my points. I look forward to hearing your arguments.

[rumguy]

3. No - context is the issue, not the word itself!

[Lizz612]

7. I agree

Words are words, inflection context and connotation are what matter.

[VelmaD]

17. Unforunately on the net...

infelction context adn connotation tend to get lost because of the lack or tonal and non-verbal cues.

[Lizz612]

37. Very true

Human are resourceful and smart. We expand our language to be overly sarcastic/insulting/sexual/whatever because we can't include our tone of voice and body language. Watch some one on a phone, they still wave there arms when angry but they also increase they're dependence on tone of voice. People do the same on the internet. Most DUers are pretty good at piking up on these clues. I know I've made my sarcasm here more obvious after having it go right over some people.

Wow we're getting kind of off topic, oh well, its a flame anyway.

[bearfartinthewoods]

4. Skinner, i just fully read your post. you wrote

'and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.'

i think that's all some of use are asking for...and you see how well it's going.

i still say no to the ban but please don't ban the protests either.

[mouse7]

47. The "protests" are what caused this disaster

Thread after thread with post after post of Slinkerwink posing n-bombs, c--ts, f----ts, etc in the titles

THAT needs to end one way or the other right here and right now.

[KAZ]

5. The world is falling apart and this is our worry?

Whatever. My wife and I use bitch for females, bastards for males. How about that. And sorry, not reading 6 previous threads.

[ant]

49. heh

Maybe if we all learned to respect and listen to each other, sincerely understanding the concerns of others rather than trying to marginalize them, the world would not be falling apart.

[KAZ]

95. OohKaay, maybe you're right. n/t

[Corgigal]

6. Respectfully submitted

I think we're all adults here and can handle some language. The country is going through the very hard times right now, worst then in the past 25 years, my opinion, and we have more important things to worry about then a nasty word.

[bigbillhaywood]

29. Amen

With that I move to another thread.

[curse10]

8. Someone was suggesting that racial and gender terms were the same in the

eyes of the law, but my response wasn't able to get in before the lock so, here it is

If you are going to look at the law you are actually wrong in your assessment.

When deciding sexual discrimination cases the Supreme Court uses intermediate scrutiny. When deciding racial discrimination cases the court uses strict scrutiny. This means, essential, without going into the ins and outs of jurisprudence, that they are more likely to strike down a law that is racially motivated than gender oriented.

[slinkerwink]

129. a woman can legally sue a man if he calls her a bitch or a whore

in her workplace. That's verbal harassment.

[curse10]

157. No shit.

But when determing whether or not a statute or regulation or law is constitutional SCOTUS uses different levels of scrutiny. They are treated differently. You can't argue with it, it's fact.

It's viewed differently because it is different. To equate "nigger" or "faggot" to "bitch" is to lessen the atrocity of those words. I'm sorry, but "bitch" is nowhere near that level. It might be offensive to you, but you are also white and going to a fancy private college in Western Mass. I'm white and going to a fancy private law school in Eastern Mass and I don't DARE equate anything I've gone through in life with anyone that has ever been called a "nigger" or "faggot" or any of the horrific slurs that have a historical basis of bigotry in this country.

Get some perspective on this. The arguments you are making are irrational and any ground you might have made was completely lost in the tirades you've made on this board.

[Mr_Lefty]

9. Too much thin skin around here...

or guilty conscience- The answer is no!

[slinkerwink]

10. here's my essay for those who might have missed this

There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.


Skinner....I'm getting sick of those continuous threads----can you please just discuss this with the administrators or decided to make up your mind? Let's try a trial experiment of not using the word "bitch" here, and let me tell you, the environment here in DU would feel a lot safer for the women who visit here.

[curse10]

14. don't worry, no one has missed it

you've been spamming the board with it all night :eyes:

[mouse7]

55. Agreed.

It's like "missing" DU is pro-Democratic Party.

[JohnLocke]

21. Please respond to post #2.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mr_Lefty]

34. whatever

[ALago1]

44. Ok

"Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a 'bitch' or 'whore'."


Ok done. She was not happy and I regretted it. Who would've known being mean to a five year old would have turned out so bad?

So I asked her if banning the word "bitch" on a website was a good idea and a way to reconcile our differences. To my surprise she said no, called me a dick, and instead said that you shouldn't be mean to people in the first place.

Ok obviously that exchange never happened...and I'm afraid I must come clean....

The only reason I don't want "bitch" to be banned is because the Rick James sketch is so damn funny I want the liberty to quote it at will :)

[AndyP]

11. when it's directed at another member then no

I think it would be offensive to use the DU to call other people on the DU names. We are all here for the same cause, there's no need. If you want to call someone a bitch her name should start with *Condi*

[Maat]

18. I have always felt among friends on the Board...

I guess I don't take that much offense to the word anymore. It is sexist. But I have a lot thicker skin that that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

40. kids have thin skins

i want to diminish the causes of thickening.

[WillyT]

12. Thread 7 !!!

Not to diminish the discussion...

But Jesus Christ, a whole lotta folks just got snuffed in Iraq.

Please accept my apologies while I keep my eyes on that story for now.

BTW - I use the term hardly at all. Most of the women I know, on the other hand...

:shrug:

[KAZ]

24. "let's try and keep our eyes on the ball". President Sheppard.

Sorry. Felt apropos.

[ulTRAX]

13. Sometimes DU Reminds Me of Monty Python's LIFE OF BRIAN

I certainly do not consider myself a sexist nor would I want to see the blatantly sexist people here. I also defend PC language as long as it doesn't get absurd.

But I also don't want to feel I'm walking on eggs because some people are SOOOOOOOOOO sensitive they rush to take offense where none is given. Some here are so ridiculous they remind me of the radicals in Monty Python's "Life of Brian". From http://inflow.corky.net/scripts/life_brian.html


Judith I do feel, Reg, that any anti-imperialist group like ours must
reflect such a divergence of interests within its power base.
Reg Agreed. Francis?
Francis Yeah. I think Judith's point of view is very valid, Reg, provided the
movement never forgets that it is the inaliable right of every man...
Stan Or woman.
Francis ...or woman. To rid himself...
Stan Or herself.
Francis ...or herself.
Reg Agreed.
Francis Thank you brother.
Stan Or sister.
Francis ...or sister. Where was I?
Reg I think you'd finished.
Francis Oh, right.
Reg Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man...
Stan Or woman.
Reg Why don't you shut up about women, Stan. You're putting us off.
Stan Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.
Francis Why are you always on about women, Stan?
Stan I want to be one.
Reg What?
Stan I want to be a woman... from now on I want you all to call me
Loretta.
Reg What???
Loretta It's my right as a man.
Judith Well why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
Loretta I want to have babies.
Reg You want to have babies?
Loretta It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
Reg But you can't have babies.
Loretta Don't you oppress me.
Reg I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb. Where's the foetis going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?
Judith Here. I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have
babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault... not even the
Roman's, but that he can have the right to have babies.
Francis Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to
have babies, brother. Sister, sorry.
Reg What's the point?
Francis What?
Reg What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he
can't have babies?
Francis It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg Symbolic of his struggle against reality.

[bigbillhaywood]

15. Newbie has a question?

Do people really use Jew and Zionist interchangeably on these posts? It's patently incorrect.

[WillyBrandt]

19. Most don't, but I've seen it! And I've seen Jew = Israel equivalency too

And I've seen some conspiracy mongering that was really just anti-Semitic, no matter how understanding you're trying to be.

I don't really think we should go around banning that stuff. Or the word "bitch."

[Skinner]

20. Please

Let's not turn this into a discussion of the Arab/Israeli conflict. One hot-button issue at a time.

[WillyBrandt]

26. I'm just saying--there's stuff as bad that's just as ban-worthy

I can think of more stuff. . .

[bigbillhaywood]

28. I was just curious being my first visit and all

[Dookus]

16. Fran Lebowitz wrote

"Being offended is the natural consequence of leaving one's home."

I would expand that to say "being offended is the natural consequence of having a modem."

Bitch is insulting. But as far as epithets go, it's a very mild one. It's also used against individuals, not women in general (at least here on DU)

Even many feminists here proudly claim the word. One of the critics of the word even boasted last week about having two bumperstickers on her own car referring to herself as a bitch. I don't see how women can simultaneously use it to describe themselves, then scream sexism when somebody else uses the word against somebody else.

It's a word, and a mild one, at that.

[tishaLA]

35. I'd forgotten my deep love for Fran Liebowitz

how nice to read something by her on Pesach.

[Bucky]

110. But what if the word were "nigger" instead?

Dookus writes (logically enough):
I don't see how women can simultaneously use it to describe themselves, then scream sexism when somebody else uses the word...

But certainly we allow for such a dichotomy for the word "nigger". Also "queer" has some of that weight. It's a word intended to oppress the person who hears it. When the oppressee adopts it, it can be empowering for some people and simultaneously reinforce the internalized oppression of other oppressees.

What a sticky question...

[Dookus]

130. well

as has been explained here many, many, times, the words are not equivalent. Not even close.


And as a queer, I can say that it's all in the intent. If somebody is putting me down simply because I'm a homosexual by calling me a queer, then that is offensive. But "bitch" isn't used that way, at least here on DU. It's used to describe actions and/or attitudes of INDIVIDUALS, not a group.

[Astarho]

23. No

When I use that word I am refering to a specific person who has done something to earn my contempt.

Also the fact that this topic has six previous threads of 100+ replies while other more relevant topics drop is rather disappointing.

[VelmaD]

36. Thank you...I'll add not relevant...

to the list. :eyes:

This is a topic that is relevant to some of us and I for one would appreciate not being told my concerns are unimportant.

[lastknowngood]

25. I think threads about the word Bit*h should be banned

n/t

[bigbillhaywood]

27. New guy's vote

Okay, after reading all the posts on these threads, I vote not to ban use of the word, as I think it's better not to err on the side of censorship. But I myself will not use it, and it probably is a good idea for people to stop if it's going to be found offensive. As a first-timer here, I just hope it doesn't lead down a slope of political correctness, as I kinda enjoy the debate and free discussion format.

[Lizz612]

64. Welcome!

:hi:

[latebloomer]

30. thicker skin, grow some, please!

I'm sorry but I have very little tolerance for this PC thin-skinned kneejerk fragility. I am a woman, I have been subject to sexism, I have been raped and put down in various ways.

But I'm not gonna shriek and yell "eek!" every time someone cuts loose with some salty language. A bitch is a bitch and i know plenty of them. A prick is a dickhead is a shmuck is a motherfucker. Get over it.

[Dookus]

41. LOL

thanks latebloomer - well said.

[TahitiNut]

86. Ja! Ubetcha!

:thumbsup:

[Kadie]

31. No

I can understand locking certain threads, or warnings to a poster if the word is used in a certain context. I hate to see words being banned from a message board.

[DemLikr]

38. What if I call myself (gay male) a "bitch" while alone in a room while

looking in a mirror, but not wearing pantyhose?

And I related the story in a post on DU? would that be banned?

[RedEarth]

45. LOL....that's too much...........lol

[Catch22Dem]

50. HAHAHAHA

That's funny. I'm sorry, but I think this whole thing is ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. Slinker, I love ya, I really do, but do you honestly consider DU to be a threatening environment? I can't even begin to imagine. I have never felt threatened here. On the contrary, I have felt like threatening others, but I've since put them on my ignore list. Believe me, you gotta be a real dickhead to end up on my ignore list too!

To me, bitch is a word with no meaning. When I use it (and I call my male co-workers bitches all the time) it's just a jab. I don't know, I mean I feel the same way about a lot of words. Words don't bother me much. If I heard something anti-semitic, anti-gay, or racial, then I'd take issue with it, but bitch just doesn't do it for me.

Example:

Coworker: Hey, did you hear? We have to do a server upgrade tonight. Gotta work late.
Me: Oh you bitch! You're kidding me.

[VelmaD]

62. How very nice for you...

that you can just blow the word off. Easy to do since you aren't a woman and therefor not the usual target of the word.

Padron me if your easy acceptance of the word doesn't mean a lot to me.

Add another to the ridiculous column...wow the traditional, stereotypical, misogynistic responses to women's concerns are flying fast and furious tonight.

[TOhioLiberal]

122. Velma...

Thank you for your concern for all women. Unfortunately you do not speak for me, as I am a woman and I vote HELL NO!
Trekkerlass

[VelmaD]

143. You certainly have that right

But I would be interested to know your reasoning. I've explained mine at great length today.

[TOhioLiberal]

155. My reasoning...

We have enough protections on this board (ignore thread and poster) that banning 'bitch' should not be necessary. I also agree with the posters that say a little skin thickening is in order.

Yes 'bitch' is a sexist word. But banning it...to do that would be like shredding what's left of our rights.

Trekkerlass

[MrSlayer]

39. Goddamnit! NO!

[Rationality]

42. When will this end?

Now polling!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1358958

[SemperEadem]

46. No

[FlashHarry]

48. No.

:)

[mitchtv]

51. I try not to use it, but NO

What happens if there is a Thread about Ann Coulter. I am not always able to come up with alternatives for her.

[ploppy]

52. No

n/t

[johnfunk]

53. It shouldn't be banned--we'll never be able to honestly...

...discuss Ann Coulter if it is.

ALTERNATIVE: "Bitch" could conceivably be banned if the User Agreement stipulates that members substitute the word "Coulter" in sentences in which "bitch" would normally be used.

EXAMPLES:

"Quit yer Coulterin', and respect mah au-THOR-uh-tah!"

"Was just watching 'Hannity and Colmes'. John Dean just unleashed the verbal Coulter-slap on Sean."

"If that Coulter Ann Coulter weren't such a Coultery Coulter I wouldn't be Coultering about her so much."

ON EDIT: Added a Coulter to above final example. I know, editing is a Coulter...

[Catch22Dem]

56. I've seen more laugh-out-loud posts tonight on DU

Than I've seen in 3 years. You people have been cracking me up all night. You just got added to the list johnfunk. :D

[Lizz612]

59. lol

:7
A+ for creativity!

[Rationality]

60. LMFAO

But, would you really want to say "Man, last night I did that Coulter!"

Dunno... :/

[KC21304]

57. I would have to admit to using

bitch and bastard here, maybe with a letter or two missing, and only to describe Annie C and Tom Delay I believe. Those two words to me seem to have lost their gender specific affiliation, but I can see where they may offend some.

I cringe when I see someone called a slut, whore, the c word and even di-- head. I think it reflects badly on DU but I don't think they should be banned.

[Spider Jerusalem]

61. Again, NO...

and people for whom this is a pressing issue REALLY ought to get out of the house more. There's a slippery slope...do we ban any and all terms that anyone might possibly find offensive? Do we disallow use of the word "redneck" in case it offends rural Southerners? Ban "bastard" because it offends those who actually ARE illegitimate? I'm sorry, but ANYONE who is personally offended by words which are NOT directed at them, but at someone else¹, needs help.

(1. Note that there IS, however, in this case a clear difference between words like "bitch", an INDIVIDUAL term of scorn, and other, and far more offensive words such as "nigger", "kike", "faggot", etc. which are used as terms of hatred against entire GROUPS of people, and which have no place in the conversation of intelligent people.)

[slinkerwink]

63. that's it....I give up-----you guys get to call women BITCHES!

BITCH BITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCHBITCH........bitch.

God....to me, that's like hearing the "faggot" or "dyke" word. I can't believe many people here would use sexist terms.

None of you have ever tried to empathize with me, and others. You've mocked me, ridiculed me, and in cases, called me a bitch or a feminazi. You win. Game's over.

[rumguy]

65. sorry you feel that way

That's why I rarely use the word bitch (never on DU) - unless as a verb or adjective....

[Rationality]

66. I never called you anything

I just said you were wrong.

[Lizz612]

69. Have I mocked or ridiculed you tonight?

I have empathized with you on other threads. Remember the thread about guys assuming all bi-girls are kinky sex nyphos? Yeah. I was there!
I'm sorry if I got too aggressive.

[JohnLocke]

76. You're conceding defeat? (nt)

[slinkerwink]

79. I'm sick of arguing my point SEVEN times over!

[WillyBrandt]

81. People honestly think you are wrong. That does not make you a martyr.

[slinkerwink]

87. I'm not wrong and I'm sick of men telling me I'm wrong or that

sexism isn't relevant at all.

[WillyBrandt]

92. And your opponents are equally convinced. Do not conflate this debate

with a comment like "sexism isn't relevant at all." You needn't have any particular opinion on sexism at DU or sexism in general to think that the word "bitch" should not be banned on DU.

[curse10]

102. it isn't just men

I'm personally sick of you speaking for all the women on this board as if it is your duty. We don't all agree with you.

[JohnLocke]

104. The majority of women here also disagree with you.

[VelmaD]

115. And you know this because...

you've asked every sinlge one of them, right?

[JohnLocke]

128. The preponderance of evidence suggests this.

[curse10]

139. agreed!

I'm a woman. I sure as heck don't agree with slinkerwink. In fact, I've seen only a few posters agree, and not for the same reasons.

[VelmaD]

148. Actually the preponderance of evidence is that...

people don't care given that a tiny fraction of the DU membership has weighed in on this issue. Which is sad because it's kind of important.

[slinkerwink]

156. oh, who cares about what the minorities feel anyway....

[mouse7]

145. You guys were down 86% to 14 % in poll voting

We don't know what all think, but we've certainly got a good statistical sample.

[VelmaD]

150. Now you stepped in it...

I do stats for a living. You absolutely did not have a good statistical sample in a self-selected sample on the internet. Give me a break.

[Lizz612]

84. I don't think she really is

I think she's giving up in the sense that she's tired of fighting, her opinion has not been changed I don't think.

[slinkerwink]

85. IF YOU WANT TO USE BITCH, THEN USE RACIAL EPITHETS

like N*GGER, SPIC, SPADE, WETBACK, and SO many others....oh, and HOMOPHOBIC EPITHETS too like FAGGOT, DYKE, BULLDAGGER, HOMO, FAIRY, QUEEN, and so on.......if you don't want CENSORSHIP, allow all words of HATE in here!

[curse10]

99. LMAO

self destruction?

this doesn't help your point

[mouse7]

106. I knew you'd find a way to work the rest of the slurs in.

You generally do.

[JohnLocke]

114. FOR the last time, they are NOT the same!!!

Terms such as "nigger," are applied towards blacks simply because they are blacks. The term "bitch" is not applied solely to women, nor does it reflect an immutable female characteristic of complaining (to imply so is sexist in itself). Therefore, the analogy is bullshit.

[Dookus]

117. ahh!

Your argument is more persuasive when you use a lot of caps. :eyes:

Slinkerwink - you make the mistake of believing that if we just KNEW what you were trying to say, we'd agree. That is wrong. We KNOW what you're trying to say - we disagree with you.

That's not to say we haven't thought about the issue. It's not to say we're ignorant about the history of sexism. It simply means that we disagree with your conclusions, as do many self-professed feminist women here at DU.

[slinkerwink]

120. As I remember, you'd get pissed when Kamika would drop

little homophobic slurs. That's how I feel whenever I see the word "bitch" being used as a gender-specific insult against women.

[Dookus]

140. Not once

did I ever call for Kamika to be banned, nor for any of the words she used to be banned.

In fact, I was sorry to see her banned, because I enjoyed the opportunity to expose her ignorance.

But my problems with Kamika had nothing to do with her language - it was her beliefs.

[Lizz612]

125. Thank you Dookus

[Spider Jerusalem]

131. Bit, um, fanatical on this subject, aren't you?

With a crusader's moralising zeal you set out to cleanse the unsightly epithet of "bitch" from these forums, and your efforts led to the original thread on this subject and those that follow. Now you find that the majority of the respondents are coming down on the side of freedom of expression with responsibility, rather than on the side of censorship, and you're bothered...too bad.

And the fact that a term is gender-specific DOES NOT make it sexist. Sexism is an attitude of inherent gender SUPERIORITY. Recognising the fact that there IS, indeed, such a thing as gender, and use of gender-specific words and phrases, is NOT sexist. The language is never going to be gender-neutral, as long as there is such a thing as gender. You'd better get used to it.

[Lizz612]

137. "the fact that a term is gender-specific DOES NOT make it sexist"

Thank you very much Spider Jerusalem. That is a fine distinction that needs to be made.

[slinkerwink]

147. it does.....why is that so hard to comprehend given the history

of the word "bitch" and how it's still being used against women today?

[Spider Jerusalem]

154. Used against women, often, BY women...

Almost everyone I know uses the term to refer to especially unpleasant and nasty females...and this includes males AND females (and actually, much more often, females). This experience (one which is, I see, shared by MANY of those who have responded to these various threads) tends to invalidate your base assumption.

[democracyindanger]

100. Really?

"...and in cases, called me a bitch or a feminazi."

When? Who? Because according to the search function it hasn't happened.

[slinkerwink]

112. they're called deleted posts

:eyes:

[JohnLocke]

119. They were deleted. What do you want, crucifixion?

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

121. it's spelled crucifixion

[mouse7]

151. DU Presents "The Passion of the B**CH" n/t

[JohnLocke]

153. LMAO

:D :D

[DrWeird]

67. How about the term "witch"?

It's sexually specific, it's deragotory and it's potentially offensive to some wiccans. So why one and not the other.

I'm all for using the word "bitch". If my mom uses it, it's not a bad word.

Skinner, are we going anywhere with this? It's been seven enormous crappy threads. Have you changed your opinion since a few days ago when you answered this issue in ATA? I fully agreed with your opinion and I'd be really upset if you changed it. Have you made up your mind?

[brook]

68. I'm afraid...

that as a woman in her seventh decade - who has fought many battles for equal footing - that I have to come down on the side that this is much ado about nothing. One needs to fight in real time - not in cyberspace. Anyone who decides to define me as "bitch" is telling the world more about themselves then they could ever hope to tell about me.

Yes, as some have noted somewhere in these threads, the rule book seems to have been authored by white men. But the rules are/have always been stacked against all women.

IMO, when one descends into a world of PC, one plays into the hands of the enemy. I have found that taking the issue on on a case by case method, much more is accomplished.{P}
"Play nice" is an unauthentic mode of living.

[drfemoe]

135. woo hoo

I salute your insight. It gives me a little faith in the gods knowing someone like you has been on this planet for seven decades.

[curse10]

142. words of wisdom, brook

And greatly appreciated. :-)

[Mike Niendorff]

70. sure, why not ,,,

I mean, why bother with matters of real import when we can waste our time squabbling and obsessing over the all-important Bad Words Issue (tm). I do hold out hope, however, that perhaps after this Bad Words Problem has been conquered, we can then refocus on taking back the country from a group of advancing neo-fascists with designs for international aggression. But, of course, that's for later. We must, after all, hold to our true priorities. :eyes:


MDN

[VelmaD]

80. I'm going to keep on repeating this...

until it sinks in...sexism is an important issue to women. We have historically been told over and over and over again to wait our turn because there's always something more important.

Well guess what...some of us are tired of waiting our turn because we know the truth...there will always be something you all consider more important that us and our concerns. You do not get to define what's important for me. I do.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. I wish to repeat a question from the previous thread.

What do people here think of Al Franken's use of the word "bitch slap" in the title of one of the chapters of his latest book?

The name of the chapter is "I Bitch-Slap Bernie Goldberg".

Does this make Al Franken to politically incorrect and sexist to be a subject of polite conversation on this board?

[VelmaD]

75. I would hope...

that somewhere in Al's life there is a woman who will explain to him that he probably could have picked a less offensive turn of phrase.

[JohnLocke]

91. Oh, please. He's a COMEDIAN.

[leesa]

74. Nah. Too many rules already

It's not usually personal and then do we go on to 'pricks', etc. Where does the censorship stop?

[Madrone]

77. I vote an emphatic NO on banning.

And yes, I'm a female that has before (and surely will be again) been accused of mysogyny for saying so!

[SeveneightyWhoa]

78. This is liberalism at its worst.

Censorship?

Not only does this forum ban most who exhibit differing views (which I agree with, as this is a Dem forum, not a Zell Miller or George Bush forum)--but now you're going to ban widely-accepted words? When does the word "poop" get banned, because it might be used offensively against the feces of a dog whom we just don't want to offend?

This is ridiculous.

The thought police stuff doesn't fly with me, and this is just embarassing considering how representative this forum is of the Democratic community.

You're definitely going too far with this one, Skinner.

[Skinner]

83. Um, at this point I haven't done anything.

All I've done is facilitated a discussion. :shrug:

[SeveneightyWhoa]

90. Yeah..

I know!
Just the mere thought of what we're discussing--whether to ban a relatively harmless word, in my opinion--is scary!

We were all up in arms over people's wacky reaction to the Janet Jackson flap--and now we're going to do something even sillier and consider banning the word "bitch"?

You're a straight-up bitch! }(

[VelmaD]

101. Thanks...I don't think I had a "silly" yet today

*adds it to the list* :eyes:

[KAZ]

108. And it's quite a discussion. It really is.

At first I thought "how silly", but maybe I was wrong. Can I use "witch" instead? It does cut a bit More than "that bad person". I would never use "B slap".

[lapauvre]

134. Congrats

Ya done good, Skinner. Great discussion.

[Madrone]

89. Don't take it out on Skinner!

He's just tired of being bitched at and getting hundreds of ALERTS every time someone says "Bitch" in a post. I suspect he finally just threw his hands up and said "son of a BITCH" and decided to let the rest of us fight it out.

Not his fault - he's just sick of the bitching!

;-)

He may feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[rumguy]

94. can we take it out on you?

[Madrone]

97. Sure!

:D

Just back off Skinner! :)

[Rationality]

116. Aye, the alturism you demonstrate should be emulated by all!!!

... nah. I stay high and dry.

:toast:

[rumguy]

144. I'm backing off...

backing off...

[Rationality]

103. [sorry, wrong target]

[Rationality]

93. I don't want to sound like I'm sucking up to the Admins here, but...

...from what I read, Skinner never actually took a position, at least yet.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

107. Okay, okay.

I haven't read his posts about it--just the title of this thread, and so I automatically assumed the worst.

[rumguy]

113. Have you no sense of decency?

[Bucky]

82. "Bitch" as a noun or adjective is hate speech. But still don't ban it

The intent of bitch is inherently sexist, misogynist, and petty when "bitch" is a noun ("you bitch") or adjective ("Tommy gave the bitch a bitch slap"). As a verb it's pretty harmless ("Tommy bitched all the way to the store"). When the verb is turned into an adjective it's cool ("Tommy is in a bitchy mood"). There are some cases when it's used as a metaphor that it is non-hate speech ("Jennifer thought her algebra final was a stone bitch")--so obviously some noun forms of "bitch" are not inappropriate. Some snark will even say that the name-calling form of bitch is okay in some circumstances ("Jennifer found Gretchen van Susteran to be a bitch") and potentially even feminist-empowering (as in "Trixie found she could be a real bitch when Llewellen tried to slack off on the housechores").

Trying to regulate a single word is, well, a stone bitch. I personally loathe the word except when it's used as a verb. But given the etymology of the verb-form, some people plausibly and understandably find even this usage to be offensive. There is no right answer here.

Should people use the word bitch? No, it's easily and properly offensive in far too many contexts. But that's not the question. The question is should DU ban it? On that topic I am a libertarian. It's bad manners, but I prefer it to be regulated among the people. If someone is being offensive, let's have the DU community speak up and politely chastise the bad manners rather than impose regulations from on high. Collective responsibility is a more complicated, but inherently better principle for organizing a community. As Isaiah said "Come, let's reason together." It's always better that way.

Don't ban the word.

[lapauvre]

96. I know I am probably too late...

But.... I find this thread very interesting.

I must be going to vote for Kerry because I can see valid reasons for coming down with ambivalence.

I can see how females might feel, having read the lengthy history of the word, but I can also see how the general use of the word has become non-gender specific.

Currently, the word also has a favorable connotation, such as when one says, "I had a bitchin' good time!" My adult children, three sons and a daughter, often use this phrase.

Never really thought out the semantics of the phrase, and I DO appreciate someone who has.

For the person who has, I appreciate the challenge to develop a vocabulary that is not so simplified.

However, the word, "incompetent," just doesn't fill the bill, or suit the subject.

So, let's develop the vocabulary a bit.

George Bush's sycophant? The true embodiment of Rush Limbaugh's Feminazi? An inhumane and inhuman person? A farcical person? A power-mad egoist beyond the norms of the bell curve? An unprincipled person? A liar lacking integrity? A coward who hides behind Executive Privilege? A person who, heretofore, has exhibited a facial expression (pardon me, Richard Pryor) that can only be compared to that on an iodine bottle? A person who now appears, in every single news file footage SMILING?

Oh, let's do get creative here?

[Mattforclark]

98. No.

[Rationality]

109. Final thought

If we try to cater to everyone's sensitivities so that we won't offend anyone, we'll end up with a sterile discussion board unworthy of conducting any controversial debate.

As a political board, we shouldn't sink to that.

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. I would like to think that I was in the kind of company that would not

use the term bitch to describe a woman. Yes, I am offended by it...deeply. Should DU get rid of it? That's up to you Skinner. I'm not going to get all wound up about it, but I may think twice about the maturity level of those who need to use it...excessively.

:hi:

[slinkerwink]

118. I also would like to think that this is a message board that is

opposed to sexism, and to sexist words like "bitch"----deny it or not, the word "bitch" IS sexist when it is used as an insult against another woman.

[ScreamingMeemie]

126. I agree slink, but it is a free country to a point. I'd like to see it

gone too, but after all that's gone on today...I've no strength to fight about it. So I'll basically let the little kids be the little kids, and label them sexist and not bother with them. :hug:

[slinkerwink]

133. but think about how sexist words like that affect women like me

as well as your daughter, who might hear that word in middle school, and think it's okay that guys call girls that.

[ScreamingMeemie]

141. Again agreed. Which is why I speak with her about it. She also

is not allowed on boards such as this one. There is a zero tolerance at her school for that type of behavior. Somehow I don't think that would work among the "adults" here. In other words, I think people should know better...and I'm dissapointed that so many don't. To me, it's a sign of ignorance and stupidity.

[slinkerwink]

149. and why should that ignorance and stupidity be encouraged here?

it does nothing to raise the level of productive discussion when you have DU members consistently trashing high-profile women and calling them sexist epithets?

[Devil Dog Dem]

123. No. That is WAY too PC

eom

[Devil Dog Dem]

124. No. That is WAY too PC

eom

[BiggJawn]

127. Ban it, and I'll bust a "Alert" cap everytime I see...

Something I feel is insulting or demeaning, or "incites violence against" MEN.

Fair's fair, don't you think?

[Madrone]

132. Oooohhhhh.... NOW you've gone and done it!

Hope you're wearing asbestos panties.... :D

[ScreamingMeemie]

136. Many times I have alerted on just that BiggJawn...either way, it's not

right. :hi:

[ant]

152. fair IS fair

Of course, to equate the two seems to show a lack of understanding for the nature of sexism.

If you're interested in learning why I say that, I would recommend this article:

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-05/03wise.cfm

It's about racism, but the general idea still holds in this case. And given the responses you've gotten - those that have laughed at the joke (and, yes, I do see the humor) - I would especially recommend that you pay close attention to why we are able to laugh at your post in the first place.

[Skinner]

158. Continue discussion in thread #8

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1359420

I'm locking.