Can a man be a feminist?

[rumguy]

Am I one?

[freeforall]

1. You'll have to explain your views

and then we can decide.

[rumguy]

2. So a man can be one then?

[Adelante]

7. Yes

It's not easy, but it is possible :)

[Demonaut]

38. you gotta burn your manssiere, let your bitch tits hang.

sorry but a little Seinfeld and Fight Club fun!

[ACK]

4. Feminism

is the radical idea that women are human beings too.

Isn't that the quote or have I misquoted the great feminist quote?

[efhmc]

28. "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. " That is on my

fridge. My sil is a great person and a feminist.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. yes

[kayell]

5. Yes, NO

[rumguy]

11. Am I a bigot?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

23. fascinating

[onebigbadwulf]

6. Feminism is awesome

It says women have to be drafted as well as men...

Booyeah.

[corporatewhore]

17. i think that the draftgoes against feminist princeples

just like i think that corporatism goes against feminism.I think that getting ahead be exploiting another woman or man goes against feminist principles.The draft is a classist institution who is more likely to get outta the draft by going to school or by connections further more the draft robs a person of his/her free will. what does that spell? Exploitation.

[efhmc]

30. I am a feminist but those ideas to me are about another thing I am and

that is a (trying) Christian.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. yes and no..respectively

I know many male feminists. How they become feminists is by empathizing. To my knowledge, you haven't demonstrated any empathy in the matter.

There is a great web site called Men Against Rape, (if I am recalling the name correctly) and on that site are views of a number of male feminists...they GET the conversation about misogyny and how it is engrained in our culture..and they act to eliminate it in order to transform our culture from one that excuses violence against women to one that won't tolerate it.

[rumguy]

10. Am I a bigot?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

16. fascinating

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Is that for you to answer?

I'm not going to call you names, I am going to ask you to think.

[rumguy]

25. I do think

[JohnLocke]

49. LOL

[Must_B_Free]

9. yes

my grandfather was a member of NOW, because during WWII they gave him a job with 12 other guys and one woman did all the work for them.

[MissB]

12. In my opinion, yes to the first question

I don't know enough about you to answer the second.

[LWolf]

14. 1. Yes.

2. I have no idea.

[camero]

15. I abhor the term actually

It implies female power just as misogyny implies male power. Why can't we just be humanists?

Flames away.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[camero]

20. I have read it

Among the more egregious statements are how men are redundant. Women's sex lives are the fault of men. Take a look at the courts and tell me different. A click you say? I say that's a personal attack. What say you? Would you like me to fish them out for you?

Are you saying women can't be misanthropic? I disgress.

[noiretextatique]

50. what in the hell did you read?

:shrug: perhaps you should read something else

[camero]

52. Just these

I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, in 1974

...rape is the perfected act of male sexuality in a patriarchal culture-- it is the ultimate metaphor for domination, violence, subjugation, and possession. -- Robin Morgan

I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
- From Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

Dr Greer (denying that she said it): "I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I'm concerned, men are the product of a damanged gene. They pretend to be normal but what they're doing sitting there with benign smiles on their faces is they're manufacturing sperm. They do it all the time. They never stop.

Germaine Greer, at a Hilton Hotel literary lunch, promoting her book "The Change-- Women, Aging and the Menopause". From a newsreport dated 11/14/91.

MALE: ... represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. 'The first males were mutants... the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female.'
MAN: ... an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be watched ... a contradictory baby-man ...
TESTOSTERONE POISONING: ... 'Until now it has been though that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behavior is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from "testosterone poisoning."' -- from A Feminist Dictionary", ed. Kramarae and Treichler, Pandora 1985

But I'm seeing a good discussion in the second wave feminism thread. Maybe we'll have peace in our lifetimes. I hope so.

[noiretextatique]

56. a few excerpts...and ones you just HAPPEN to have on hand...hmmm?

:eyes: from a few poople = feminism is anti-male?! you didn't happen to convienently find these all together on some website...did you?

try reading a few books...and stop visiting those websites. mary daly's "gynecology." requires some effort, but it is most illuminating.

[camero]

60. I don't mind being attacked go ahead

I've only been put down for the last 30 years. The quotes are true yes?

[noiretextatique]

64. how is the hell do i know? did your website say they were true?

:eyes: i merely suggested that you read an entire book, vs. using quotes devoid of any context...hence any real meaning. that is not an attack. and attack is: stringing together a bunch of unconnected quotes in a transparent attempt to define an entire movement by said quotes.

[camero]

65. So you deny there is misandry?

http://www.menweb.org/throop/bash/quotes.html

I know there is misogyny and we all struggle with it but you can't deny misandry doesn't exist.

[noiretextatique]

80. i don't deny it...but until women have the power

that men do...it's silly to claim that misnadry is MORE of a problem than misogyny. just as it's silly to claim reverse discrimation is MORE of a problem than the reverse.

[camero]

82. I don't say it's more of a problem

I say the quest for power is the problem and the war won't end until male and female learn to share power instead of trying to overpower each other.

[noiretextatique]

83. i agree with that...however when power is unequal

i don't see how the group with the least power CAN overpower the group with the most power. look...it our tradition (i'll just speak about the USA) was that women held all the social/political/economic power for themselves and doled it out to men at they saw fit...then i'd be on the opposite side of this debate. but of course...that wasn't and isn't the case. and it's certainly not the case in places like afghanistan.
sorry...but some of these "men's rights" men sound exactly like the KKK of gender. i usee KKK purposely because some of the men's rights groups are not about gender equality, but male supremacy.
and i would agree that some of the most radical feminists are indeed radical...of course, they don't have an entire culture supporting their beliefs, and male (and white) supremacists do (or did).
but feminism, in general, isn't some radical or power-hungry philosophy...it even addresses the rigidiy of male gender role socialization, and how that hurts men also.

[camero]

84. I agree with much of what you say

But the key is to make the world more "womanly" meaning more nuturing and caring instead of just being the top dog in a man's world. Some examples of that would be UHC (and I do think UHC is a good feminist concept) as well as employer sponsored childcare and the socialist idea of a reduced workweek and shared jobs.

I agree alot of these "men's movements" are KKK oriented and that the term is a proper one but just as much deception has a kernal of truth there is a case in some respects such as the family court system having the stereotype that a child is better off in the hands of the mother all the time which is certainly not the case and that the mother is the only one that can speak for the child. The Newdow case is a perfect example of that.

Just because there is misogyny doesn't mean I just let misandry go. Both should be fought equally. I agree gender roles do hurt men equally also.

[noiretextatique]

85. i hear you

and...i do think soceity has evolved and women and men along with it. i hear what you are saying about simply joining in the old way of doing things...including assuming women are automatically better caretakers than men.
i've had a few female managers who were worse than men in many ways. i understand why they were that way though...they had to be that way in order to get ahead.
but i agree wholeheartedly that what the world sorely needs is to accept that the highest and most evolved expressions of humanity are not determined by gender. however, it's still too often true that the worst and lowest expressions of humanity are directed at people of color and women.

peace.

[camero]

86. I agree

It is the worst and lowest expressions of humanity are directed at people of color and women. I've been looking at both ends in order to pick out the best of both and come to my own understanding of it.

Peace and thanks.

[The Magistrate]

70. 'Gynecology', Ms. Blu

Is indeed an excellent and illuminating work: a pleasure to see it recommended here. It will leave a male feeling thoroughly disliked, however.

One problem with these sorts of discussions, in my view, is that men are hardly in any position to complain about being disliked or disrespected by women: the old saw about being able to dish it out, but not to take it, comes readily to mind, and if there is one thing a man is supposed to be able to do, it is to take it....

"I hate women because they know where things are."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[noiretextatique]

88. my dear Sir

:hi: such a pleasure to run into you in this discussion. i've found few texts as illuminating as mary daly's work on the subject.

[The Magistrate]

91. The Pleasure Is Mine, Ma'am

The work was recommended to me many years ago by a lady who, on ideological grounds, probably should not have spoken to me at all, but had enjoyed hearing me eviscerate some theology students on grounds of masculinist appropriation of fertility symbols in Christianity and other religions of the West....

She has my gratitude for it to this day. It is one of the few books that has ever moved me to make notes on its pages in argument with the author, but that is all to the good in such a work, and it would never have found its way to my shelves without her recommendation. A great deal of its analysis is, unfortunately, perhaps, from a man's point of view, spot on past argument. My copy will be passed on to my daughter in a year or two.

55. the men redundant argument

is one very narrow/radical form of feminism, more likely to be found in America.
There are many other types of feminism that don't make that argument at all.
One of the more significant feminist theorists in France, Helene Cixous, certainly doesn't believe men are redundant. She wrote her Ph.D dissertation on James Joyce, approvingly. She argues regarding "feminine language", that some of the best examples of it have been written by men. She gives as example Molly Bloom's speech at the end of Ulysses.
Other threads in feminism believe that it is a mistake to equate "feminine" with gender. Everyone whether, male or female, has both a feminine and a masculine part of their psyche.
So of course men can be feminists, just as women can be masculinists.
Jungian psychology believes this also regarding the two sides of the psyche and Jung believed that the true process of individuation required that one acknowledge the side of the psyche that was the opposite of one's gender. Without doing so a person is permanently stuck in adolescence and never enters true adulthood.
Any serious study of the subject of feminism shows that many feminists are not "man-haters" at all. Descriptions of them as being such are about as valid as attacks by freepers on the media claiming it is liberal & are essentially the same type of thought process.

Just so I get dissed or attacked for the right reason regarding my views, I'm going to state that I am a male in my 40s, so I'm not just suddenly starting to think about these things. I've got three sisters, I've been thinking about them for a long time.

[camero]

58. I agree with Jung

and I should check out the theories you list. Noone wants to go back to the 50s except the Promise Keeper types. I just have a problem with some who throw misogyny around and can't admit there is also an element of misandry.

After 30 years of hearing my gender being the cause of all the problems of the last 2 millenia and that we weren't needed anymore and saying boo to a woman getting you a sexual harrassment claim (never happened to me cause I don't approach) you think differently.

I'm glad that women have won the rights they have. It makes us all better. But I will respond to an attack on my gender. As I should.

63. Good that you've got an open mind

Sometimes it's a little hard to tell these things in the dynamics of discussion boards.
Let me recommend a book to you that is a fairly comprehensive anthology of feminist literary theory.

Feminisms, edited by Robyn Warhol & Diane Herndl

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813523893/qid=1081382652/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4792824-4797634?v=glance&s=books

[camero]

67. I'm reading this now

It seems more of a critique of society than gender. It's very interesting.

http://www.colorado.edu/English/engl2010mk/cixous.lec.html

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

48. Nice personal attack.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. i know several males who are card carrying members of NOW

[TahitiNut]

87. Not a big deal. I've been a card-carrying member of NOW for ...

... nearly 20 years. I've also been a member of the ACLU and NAACP for even longer. But it's apparently not a matter of credentials or even the work one has done. I've done support work for SARC and worked internally in corporations to eliminate sexual discrimination and enhance and embrace diversity ... but I have occasionally been confronted by women who attack me as "the enemy" irregardless. Despite having attitudes and investments that exceed even those of a multitude of women, I doubt those attacks will ever cease. Not in my remaining lifetime at least. It's pitiful.

[MAlibdem]

24. In the words of Simone de Beauvoir...

"Just as in America there is no Negro problem, but rather a white problem; just as ‘anti-Semitism is not a Jewish problem, it is our problem’; so the woman problem has always been a man’s problem"

The goals of feminism will not be achieved until all men are also feminists, or at the very least, there is a de juri acceptance and embrace of feminism.

[tishaLA]

33. Love that quotation

I had never heard it before. But then again, I have to confess I have never been a huge fam of Mlle. de Beauvoir.

[Goldmund]

54. I disagree with the quote.

While I agree with the first two parts of the quote, the woman's problem is not only the man's problem.

The difference is this: "Negros" (to maintain the language of the quote) only wanted to be treated absolutely equally, and so did the Jews. While most Feminists do as well, many women -- Dr. Laura being a particularly sickening example -- do not believe in equality. They believe an ideology analogous to "separate but equal" from the 50's South.

As long as we have gender ROLES -- and as long as there is such a thing as "being treated like a lady" and as long as some women demand to be treated like "ladies" -- we will not have equality.

This is NOT to say that men don't cary most of the responsibility for female opression. But as long as there are social gender roles which many women accept, there will not be gender equality.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

27. that's for you to decide

[efhmc]

29. Of course, but you will know if you are one and won't need to ask

others. I really am interested in why you want to know.

[rumguy]

31. read the thread

[tishaLA]

32. Of course he can

[calimary]

34. Yep. I have one fine adult specimen waiting for me in the next room,

AND our son, aged eleven, warming up in the bullpen.

[rumguy]

35. your husband?

[calimary]

66. Yes indeed. We just hit Year 28 on Sunday.

[maggrwaggr]

36. NO. And if you try you'll look like an asshole.

like a white guy trying to act and talk "black".

Sorry, but it's just stupid to think a man can be a feminist.

Any man who claims to be a "feminist" is probably just trying to get laid.

Men are men. Women are women. Celebrate the differences. They're wonderful.

I'm a man and I'm proud of it. But there is a lot about women that I will never understand. And that's okay. There's a lot about me that even the most understanding women on earth (like my wife) will never understand.

Let women be feminists and let black people call each other "niggaz" and accept the fact that dogs will always chase cats.

[Gemini Cat]

39. Wow.

Someday and I hope it's soon, someone will explain to me the secret differences between males and females. So far other then the childbirth business, the only difference I can see is one usually sits to pee and the other generally stands. However, in my rather limited experience, both males and females have been known to do both.

As it stands both the male and the female need to eat, sleep, drink and both generally desire safely, as well warmth and all those other things humans need. Therefore, I haven't noticed any real difference- other than the societal silliness. As in the absurd way the male and the female are socialized and are expected to act differently, because of society demanding them of such. I would suppose if the silly socialization of the male and female was suddenly stripped away and replaced with something more humane, one would find they were both more alike and had much more in common with each other, being human and all that.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

42. this thread was an experiment

nothing more

IMO, the question is meaningless.

[alarcojon]

89. An experiment

with us as guinea pigs? What were you testing for? Did you find it?

[HEyHEY]

44. By that logic...

All us men should just close our eyes to the feminist plight.

[maggrwaggr]

76. au contraire. What I'm saying is a man can't be a feminist

but he can support feminism as much as he wants.

I, for one, support equal rights for everybody regardless of race or gender.

But am I a feminist? Hell no, I'm a GUY.

This is the problem I always had with Phil Donahue. A man pretending to be a woman. I got news for you, Phil: you're not a woman. Quit acting like one, quit speaking "for them" like you ARE one. You're not.

[noiretextatique]

57. what does any of this have to do with feminism?

:shrug: are you saying white people didn't support ending slavery and participate in the civil rights movement? that no men supported women getting the right to vote?

[elperromagico]

62. Your comparison to whites "acting black" is tortured at best.

Feminism isn't about acting like a woman any more than the civil rights movement is about acting black, or the gay rights movement is about acting gay. It's about the attainment of equality.

I happen to believe that all citizens of this country are entitled to the same basic human and civil rights, and that no person should be denied those rights because of gender, race, creed, sexual preference, or any other variable. The only exception (that I can think of at the moment) which should be made is in regard to criminals who have violated the rights of others, and even they should be dealt with in as fair and even-handed a manner as possible.

I didn't come to those beliefs because I wanted to get laid. I came to those beliefs because, if our country wishes to achieve true democracy, we must aspire to full equality.

Am I a feminist? I have no idea. I'd prefer to think of myself as a humanist.

[maggrwaggr]

77. well there you go. We're in agreement.

you don't want to call yourself a feminist either.

I, as a man, feel about as comfortable calling myself a feminist as I would wearing a bra.

[Selwynn]

37. Feminist theory is just philosophy --

-- so apparently according to some, a man can't hold certian philosophical views about the world just because he is a man.

God the ignorance about "feminism" is staggering.

I'm a philosopher, and I have studied a great deal of femnist theory becuase I believe many of their claims are true across the spetrum of both genders. In the academic world, there is (for the most part) no question or stigma about a man studying and agreeing with the claims of feminist theory.

Feminist theory critiques language, influenced much (at least in one stream) from Wittgenstein. There's is nothing gender restritive about language critics.

Feminist theory is about ontology, specifically a through and much needed critique of modernity's (i.e. enlightenment's) concept of the "self" - there is nothing about ontological investigation that is gender exclusive.

Feminist theory is about sociology, specifically a historical look at the effects of partiarchy and a contemporary analysis of the ways that our society shapes our self-identity - there is nothing about sociology that is gender exclusive.

Feminist theory certainly starts as a language critique, arguing that historically our language and culture have been predominantly patriarchal at best and at times misogynist at worst. You don't have to be a woman to agree with that analysis (or male to disagree with it.) But from there feminist theory moves far beyond the exclusive subject of women's experiences and has inclusive things to say about the subjects I mentioned, as well as epistemology, theology, and other things.

I am a man as well. I'm not really "proud" or not proud of it, because I didn't really have anything to do with it. I just am what I am. However, its pretty shallow and naive to say something as ridiculous as "anyone who claims to be a "feminist" is probably just trying to get laid."

Finally, understand that when you use the word "feminist" you really have to qualify what you mean? Feminism really emerged philosophically/intellectually in the early/middle half of the twentieth century, primarily as a critique to certain concepts from modernism, as I have said. Political feminism or feminist activism certainly came to be in conjunction with the arrival of feminist theory/philosophy, but is by no means identical.

In the end, the slogan says it best: feminism is the radical notion that women are people. And even a man can get on board with that. :)

[arcos]

40. I'm a man and I consider myself a feminist...

on edit: oh, and I'm not "trying to get laid" :eyes: because I'm gay...

[sweetheart]

43. All human beings have both male and female sides

For a given sex, one side is dominant, but hardly does that deny
the other side. Men can be feminists as much as women like AnnCoulter can be patriarchs. To overfocus on the physical body is
an error of youth. The mind and spirt of all human beings is
powerfully feminie, and in granting all people the right to be
feminists, it is clear that the whole society benefits from
equality, not just women.

Both men and women suffer the failure of equal treatment, for one
the karma of the oppressor, to be separated from their own nature
and for the other to be repressed. Petty people try to divide and
make exclusive groups. Wiser folk represent us all, and our
universal victory in supporting feminism.

[Goldmund]

45. I hope so.

Otherwise I must have some serious hormonal problems.

[Blue-Jay]

46. Yes. Why not?

I'm a man AND a feminist. I suppose it depends on how you prefer to define the term, though.

Semantics.

[AGD4y2357y]

Websters defines it as...

"Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes."

By this definition I am a feminist.

[AGD4y2357y]

47. Websters defines it as...

"Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes."

By this definition I am a feminist.

[BabsSong]

51. My husband wouldn't be anyting but...........it's all in the training n/t

[NMDemDist2]

78. Amen sister

[Hemprus]

53. A man

can be what ever he likes. Don't we all have the free will to believe in what ever cause we want to. Standing up for womens right is just another choice to be made in your own ethical thinking. :grouphug:

[slinkerwink]

59. a feminist would not defend the use of sexist slurs

[rumguy]

61. I guess I'm not a feminist

ho hum

[Goldmund]

68. Gloria Steinem must not be a feminist.

http://video.indiana.edu:8080/ramgen/ip/iucast/lectures/steinem.rm?start=1:13:39&end=1:16:47

It's an audio clip.

Excerpt: "It's not the word, it's the content."

[slinkerwink]

74. I agree that context is important, and when I see men here

calling high-profile women "Bitches," then that's a clear sexist attack on their gender. The adjective and verb usage of the word "bitch" is fine with me.

[Goldmund]

75. That is not what she meant.

She said "content", not "context". "Content", as in "expressive intent".

And I absolutely and completely disagree with you that it's a "clear attack on their gender", for nine million reasons, but I'm not going to contribute in beating this issue to death anymore. I think that the collective decision is to stop the "bitch" discussion.

But for future reference, if you see me use the word "bitch" -- and I do use that word -- it has nothing to do with gender, let alone being an "attack" on one. You'll see me use it regardless to what the person I'm using it for has in their pants. If you'd like, read this post I made: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1365936&mesg_id=1365936 -- and if you want to keep discussing this, I'm game, but send me a personal message as opposed to posting, so we don't piss off Skinner.

[HFishbine]

69. If a feminist can be a man

then I don't see why not.

[leesa]

71. Why not? Don't you think we deserve equal rights and treatment?

There are some physiological differences that I think women should be cut a little slack for...30-40 years of monthly period 'hells' and pregnancy, but men have a few unique problems as well, or so I'm told.

[kodi]

72. well, being a humanist would be more useful, doncha' think?

because at its base, the rational for the feminist manifesto rests on the common humanity of women and men.

[Dirk39]

73. We're all women,

we're all jews, we're all Iraqis, we're all palestinians, we're all.
Or as Gilles Deleuze did write:

"being a woman is not a given by nature, women have their own becomings-woman; and so, if women have a becoming-woman, men have a becoming-woman as well."

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Stuckinthebush]

79. Lord yes - I'm one!

I wish more men were feminists.

[goddess40]

81. Of course

If your pro women, and not just trying to get laid

[alarcojon]

90. Yes, a man can be a feminist

I am a proud feminist male, and there are far more "successful" strategies for getting laid. Or so my wife tells me. B-)

Definition of terms is essential. I'll define a feminist as "someone who believes in the political, social, and economic equality of men and women".

on edit: I didn't see reply #47 when I posted. Didn't mean to be redundant! I had read this definition somewhere, but didn't realize it was literally out of the dictionary.

[MAlibdem]

92. Sure

"Just as in America there is no Negro problem, but a white problem; 'just as anti-Semetism is not a Jewish problem but our problem'; so to the problem of woman has always been man's problem"
-Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex

[Guaranteed]

93. Hey, this one's not locked yet. nt

[Guaranteed]

94. Yeah!! FIGHT THE POWER!!! nt